Living with illness

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	06 May 2003
From time to time some people in this community allude to living with illness, in themselves or in a loved one. I’ve had a particular illness since I was 21 with varying periods of severity. Reading Kiama’s post about her dream and the questions it opened for her brought this back to me and memories of feeling very much the same way but for different reasons came flooding back. When I was diagnosed time ceased in one sense for some time and I went about daily life in a kind of dream. My inner Chariot took over and didn’t have to hold on to the reigns for a while. I remember the particular night the doctor confirmed something I had suspected for some time and words just welled up “Thy will not mine be done”. It was something deep within. I have a belief that when the surface camouflage is removed by shock and pain we get close to essence. I wonder if it is possible for human beings to maintain this particular sense of essence. When the shock passes and balance is restored, I somehow lose that feeling of purity. A lot of years have passed since this illness became part of my life and I have been more fortunate than many. There have been many opportunities given and taken. I am lucky and grateful. However, I’m weary this evening and it seems that I have stood at the flame waiting for the next experience too many times. I never know quite what shape the illness will take and I’m losing curiosity. I understand the dynamic of this but I wondered if others have felt the same and how they refresh themselves. I have just been reading the simple lyrics of Sappho and have a beautiful image of entering a Greek temple with graceful pillars and cool marble floors As I walk into the temple I feel fresh, supple and young again but my appearance does not change at all. A warm breeze caresses me with the scent of the sea and moist earth. Tantalizing, unknown fragrances. Even though nobody can be seen, I feel the presence of friends and kindness and know that I’m not alone. It’s strange. Just by writing these few words I’ve been able to put myself in a good space again till sleep comes anyway. What do others in similar situations do to feel connected to the life force in a healing way, and to maintain this? I'm curious and would really like to know. Moongold

Astraea	06 May 2003
Moongold, how beautifully and truly you write about this. Your gift for honest and articulate expression is clear, and I think that -- if you do not already do so regularly -- writing would be a natural way for you to remain in touch with what is truly important in life, and to serve others at the same time. Yes -- when push comes to shove and we are tangibly faced with ultimate issues about life, the essence of what we are comes to the fore. It feels so good to be real, to be who we are, without defenses, that we swear never to go back to our old ways of being; but when the crisis passes, routine reasserts itself, and gravity pulls us back into familiar shapes. I am not sure that that is a bad thing; it enables us to survive in a day-to-day manner, for none of us could bear the strain of living a "peak experience" for long at a stretch. There are, however, some things we can do to continually connect with life in its essential aspects. One, I believe, is simple gratitude: beginning each day by thinking of five things for which we are grateful invites the energy of blessing into our lives. The exercise of kindness is another -- a yoga unto itself. The realization that we are made of light, condensed as form, and reminders to align ourselves with that essential being are important: meditation, study, and service to others. That last is particularly important, for there is no one on this earth who is not in need of love and help, in one form or another. In Breakfast of Champions, Kurt Vonnegut introduces a character named Rabo Karabekian, an artist: one of his paintings depicts a solid field, intersected by a single band of light. That is what we are, each of us. By connecting mindfully with our creative centers -- through writing, painting, singing, tarot reading, whatever we feel comfortable and most ourselves doing -- and sharing ourselves with others, we remain firmly centered in our own frequencies. Thank you for sharing yourself so expressively in this post, and for posing this most important question.

Belladonna	06 May 2003
Well, I am not nearly so eloquent (or as good a speller, for that matter) as you two, but I feel very fortunate to have such beauty, compassion, and humanity made privy to me. I hope this will not seem too crude an idea to you because it really works for me. It is similar to consciously summoning feelings of gratitude for what we have. I think of myself as a tiny speck, one of millions, who make up the human race throughout time and across the globe and I think of the suffering that has been endured by others. I don't do this because misery loves company. I do this because I am reminded that I am not alone with the experience of pain. I am not misunderstood, isolated, disconnected from others because of illness. I am not a freak. I am human. And then I go outside and sit on the earth. I do a grounding and centering exercise, I summon the 4 elements of the universe to surround me, protect me and flood me with healing energy and I ASK for Divinity to be with me, help me, guide me or whatever else I'm in need of. Sometimes I forget to ask. Why? I think we only need to ask... Perspective for me is the first thing, and then reaching out to others, asking for help, is the next. Its never failed to confirm for me that I am not alone, and in fact, it has brought me more love and support than I ever expected. Thank you Moongold for your courage and openess. (And I know THAT cannot be a real word) I hope these ideas will help you too. Much love and light, Belladonna

skytwig	06 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold When I was diagnosed time ceased in one sense for some time and I went about daily life in a kind of dream. My inner Chariot took over and didn’t have to hold on to the reigns for a while. You named it! Yes, I have felt 'carried' through some tough times, including the Tower in my life now. I am grateful for so much, as you pointed out, and yes, that is powerful 'medicine'. I don't feel highly skilled at dealing with 'tragedy' and I have much in my life. I, too, now face the adjustment to physical 'disability', as well as some shocking, lifealtering occurrences of abuse in the workplace (Now with EEOC). What refreshes me the most is meditation, going to that place, as Belladonna described, of minuteness, of having no form, of being vapor. There I find wondrous suspension in the miracle of life; I AM, I simply & mysteriously AM. Even there, as a formless, multi-particled presence, I still have full presence. For me, it makes being in human form a little easier. I do think that this planet has much more available to those who are 'normal'. It is unfortunate and will slowly be revealed, as it is now. But participation in the world society is a weird experience anyway. It tends to honor the finiteness of life much more than the infinite. I think diability, tragedy, and illness help us to realize that discrepancy and choose a path that, though not fitting here, per se, proves to be much more kin to our truth than we ever saw before. PS: Yes, write those books, please, I'd love to read them!!!

Moongold	07 May 2003
Dear Friends, I wanted to acknowledge your responses but find myself without words tonight. Had a very full day and need sleep immediately. Tomorrow morning looks good. :) Blessings Moongold

skytwig	07 May 2003
Got some helpful words from some healer friends today and thought I'd share. One of the women requested an image from her Guides, to help me on my tough path today. She immediately saw a dandylion. She was shown how tough and determined that little plant is, how it is a sunball of blossom; yet how rejected it is in the world of gardeners. It has been maligned FOR ITS STRENGTH! Yet, it is determined to bless the world with its magick parasols (sp?) of delight! Only children hold the dandylion holy! That, right there is a lot!!! children know that dandylions are faerie flowers! And how like dandylions many of us are. We struggle to be here, we shine like the sun because we are so grateful to live, we 'explode' with delight as a result, sending magical wishes to all those we meet. We are Dandy Lions in a world that doesn't fully appreciate what we have to offer. but we bloom anyway. We persist and, in so doing, we bless the world around us!!

Moongold	07 May 2003
Dear Friends, God, I was tired the other night :) This can be another kind of reality. Does it happen to you? I almost get into an altered state of consciousness helped along by exhaustion, stress, a little bit of that exhiliarated determination.........and God knows a bit of everything. The body is so tired, the mind almost leaves it. I loved what you all said about grounding and meditation. Belladonna .....I just love that name! Meditation has been a standby, off and on, for most of my life. It does release you, Skytwig, that's definitely right. Sometimes it is difficult and I give up but others it's really easy and effective. I was thinking about me and my illness last night, having surprised myself with this quite public albeit restrained posting. There is a mixture of feelings and thoughts here. I don't want to define myself by illness :) but I need to acknowledge it also, to be truly who I am, especcially at this stage of my life. I have little invested now in keeping secrets. Don't know about you guys but it took me a couple of years to be able to speak about it to even some friends. I felt alternately diminished and alternately heroic! I knew others would struggle with it because they love me but also because they don't want anything to happen to themselves. In some ways, discretion forces one into a kind of closet. Not everyone goes through these stages of course. We all have our unique epic journeys. Ah.........epic journeys! I like that description. It's so apt. We enter new physical and spiritual planes. You know what these are. They don't need description. Skytwig, to carry your meditation metaphor further, we can make the meditation experience a kind of space capsule we use on the heroic journey. I love that image and use it when I'm as tired as the other night. Do you have time for another metaphor? The illness is many things but sometimes it's like a coat that I have to wear all the time. Well, it's time to take the coat off and give it a dry clean. :)I have to think again how I see and manage myself as I get a little older and a little more tired. It's just another stage of my epic journey. Astraea, you are correct about the writing. I do quite a bit in my journal and create new worlds for myself. We all do it in meditation but I now do it also in real consciousness as well. The writing is a creation , a structure, a process in which my dreams and images can find harbour and ultimately their own reality. Sometimes things are laboured but sometimes they just flow and that experience is quite liberating. Love you all. Please keep writing..... Moongold

littleneptune	07 May 2003
Oh my, I am surprised at the number of others who are having similar experiences! For me, illness has created a sensation of being suspended indefinitely, like the Hanged Man card, and struggling alone like the Hermit, and living in darkness and uncertainty like the Moon. Probably the most difficult aspect of my "new life" has been living without a strong sense of life purpose or personal will. Unlike the Hanged Man, I cannot say that my faith in god has been strengthened by the ordeal. If anything, I think I feel more cynical! However, I keep my mind alive at least through learning. I never feel depressed as long as I'm growing in experience and knowledge, at least on an inner level. And of course my compassion for others has grown in mulititudes...

skytwig	07 May 2003
It's interesting how illness or disability challenges our ideas about Strength! A year ago, my disc at L5, S1 slipped. Well, it is damaged, no longer holds its normal shape. it is bulging and at times I am locked in pain. As a result, I can no longer sit at work. I actually got fired for it and am now involved with the EEOC toward suing the employer. I have had to adjust to a new perception of myself. when I started using a cane, I was stunned by the pity I received from strangers. It was weird. I am normally active, have been a dancer all my life, and now, I have trouble walking!!! I don't like it! However, I have become achingly aware of the dilemma this society presents for the disabled. I was refused unemployment benefits because i am not "able & available"; I was also told that going into self-employment isn't considered 'looking for work'! How many of us disabled have considered self-employment to work. I have my laptop; I can still write, for heaven's sake!!! Society names strength in very limiting terms. We, at Aeclectic, I'm sure agree that Strength is sooooo much more. When we find ourselves challenged by physical limitations, we are presented with many of our Tarot 'friends' - Strength, Tower, Death, Temperance, Hanged One, Fool...... we find relief, we find wisdom, we find Life within life. Change is difficult. We get angry, we grieve, we accept. We find that there are treasures within that change. We find that we are more beautiful than we ever imagined. Embracing the Tower card has proven to be some of my most dynamic work. I moan when I see it in a spread, yet I also know that I shall find greater Freedom than I had before. My wings are too big for the small place I prefer; that is what Tower tells me. so, I look to the Hanged One and the Fool and I say, OK. let['s go for it. Disablity, I have learned is about learning Ability and that is a grand, grand lesson to learn! :)

Moongold	08 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by skytwig Society names strength in very limiting terms. We, at Aeclectic, I'm sure agree that Strength is sooooo much more. When we find ourselves challenged by physical limitations, we are presented with many of our Tarot 'friends' - Strength, Tower, Death, Temperance, Hanged One, Fool...... we find relief, we find wisdom, we find Life within life. We become well acquainted with those friends and they give us a richness of experience that we may not have had otherwise. However the other 16 Major Arcana are ours as well and the rest of of the pack too. We have to seize these characters with commitment because they are essential to us as fully fledged human beings. This touches on what you were saying about societal attititudes Skytwig. I love what you say about "embracing the Tower" and the same with your "Hanged Man" metaphor, littleneptune. I think the High Priestess knows a lot about illness and disability - the strength within. The High Priestess in the Shining Tribe Tarot wears a mask. which I see as beautiful quality of this card. I don't think this is saying that beauty is within. No.....to me it is saying that some beautiful things require protection in this world. There is something I must confess. I developed many constructs of illness and disability, preparing myself for the worst. The worst didn't come in the way I expected. It chose another form, far more disabling and fearful. My Shadow card is the Tower, Skytwig and I found it lurked in the most unexpected places: used guerilla tactics even :laugh:. Do you that many children with disabilities also have special psychic abilities? They seem to know who genuinely cares for them, seem to have a real antenna in the world, piccking up so much intuitive stuff. Lots of love, Moongold Weary again this evening, so will be here again tomorrow, Moongold

Astraea	08 May 2003
Moongold, Belladonna, Skytwig, Littleneptune -- what a gentle and profound thread this is, and thank you again, Moongold, for starting it. When my mother died suddenly, my father became a mountain of honesty, strength and sensitivity because he realized that such an experience either "breaks you or makes you" (as he put it). The same can be said for all of us who face death and/or chronic illness. It seems to me that the only truly healing option open to human beings -- healthy or ill -- is to truly be what we are, without shame or regret, to love and have compassion for others, and to serve. Everything else is window-dressing. May Spirit richly bless every one of you, and all the souls at Aeclectic and throughout the world, and particularly those who are searching, questioning and learning through suffering.

Moongold	08 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by littleneptune For me, illness has created a sensation of being suspended indefinitely, like the Hanged Man card, and struggling alone like the Hermit, and living in darkness and uncertainty like the Moon. Probably the most difficult aspect of my "new life" has been living without a strong sense of life purpose or personal will. Unlike the Hanged Man, I cannot say that my faith in god has been strengthened by the ordeal. If anything, I think I feel more cynical! However, I keep my mind alive at least through learning. I never feel depressed as long as I'm growing in experience and knowledge, at least on an inner level. And of course my compassion for others has grown in mulititudes... littleneptune, I am really interested in this experience. Do you think this feeling of suspension is a constant reality or a transitional thing? In Tarot I see the Fool as the Spiritual Scout. She dances ahead going where others don't dare to go yet. And because she is a Fool, but very clever, she can mark out the territory and encourage us to explore. Our illness or disability has shifted the ground in physical and spiritual terms. We explore tentatively at first (Hanged Man?) and then stride more confidently. I love the thought of being accompanied by the Fool. Not only can I laugh at the physical consequences (sometimes) of my illness but I can dance lightly over the negative reponses of others. The physical things are more a problem for me now. I am a wee bit more shaky on my feet and have to navigate downward stairs very carefully. At different times, though not regularly, I have had some interesting experiences with continence. Now this can really challenge the equanimity of self and others :). At such times one is glad of the Fool for company and I see even High Priestess smiling gracefully in the background. Remember, this is not all there is.....you are truly human! These are the things that quite sharply challenge one's perceptions of the normal. The same experience occurs when you go out with a walking stick, Skytwig, I imagine. These experiences catapult me into accepting my humanity and the humanity of others completely. They cause a healing laughter and show me that spirituality is also something other than I thought. It takes me a while to hang on to this, however. It's like seeing a fleeting vision of the light in a forest. It flickers and disappears and we keep walking towards it, knowing it's there as flashes of light draw me onwards. In simple terms, I'm sometimes good, sometimes dreadful. Constancy is a valued thing. So there is is this constant need to merge the physical and the spiritual. They are not split really but our society does separate them. People with chronic illness and disability are trail blazers here. We have to integrate constantly. We challenge perceptions all the time. Beauty is not perfect health and youth. There are many planes of existence and we have to traverse more of them than many. We have to form an idea of self that is different from the norm and have this challenged by everything! To undertake these roles and to be constant in them requires considerable humour and bravery I think. The Fool is a great companion. Some rambling thoughts... I'd be interested in your comments. Moongold

skytwig	08 May 2003
I think of Mattie Stepanic (sp?) too. Here is a young boy, 13, who used to do Karate and now he is in a wheelchair with breathing assistance. He is terminal and has lived beyond the doctor's expectations. Yet, he continues to laugh!! He writes heartfelt, uplifting poetry and he lives fully in each breath he is given! I think, too, of Corrie ten Boom (the Hiding Place) who was left totally paralyzed after a stroke, yet fully alert. For the last two years of her life, she was unable to do anything but blink. She was normal mentally. they say her eyes glowed!! Starhawke speaks of the Divinity of flesh; we are Divine just by being alive! I worked in a drug treatment program in the heart of Baltimore for years. Young people with devastating illnesses and disabilities, caused by drug addiction. Legs and arms amputated. AIDS and liver diseases, Hep C in final stages. they were on death's door when they 'woke up'. they have to live the rest of their lives with the harm their addiction caused. Yet, they do. I met a man who had AIDS so bad that he lost the use of one eye and was in and out of the hospital all the time. Yet, he still gave inspirational speeches to newcomers in recovery. He celebrated life right up to the day he died. He truly glowed with love and life. The hardest part of all this is the adjustment to the stages of illness. If it could just stay the same, we'd be fine, right? but when it gets worse, or we lose another skill, we have to go through the stages of grief all over again. But that has to be, otherwise, we won't make the adjustment. Yes, we will be angry, numb, sad, in denial, again and again as our illness or disability worsens. That is healthy. We need to grieve. But, it helps to balance that griefwork with joy work. We need to give ourselves special attention during those times. Watch Walter Mattheau movies, Dr. Doolittle, buy ourselves flowers, get a favorite food, something to treat ourselves with joy. When my husband was dieing of cancer (in his 30s!!) reading Kubler Ross taught me a lot about celebrating life, even in loss. That is the lesson loss has to teach us, truly. He died peacefully and surrounded by beauty. Now, in my own losing, I learn to apply the same beauty skills to myself. We need to pamper ourselves, rather than pity ourselves; we need to embrace our needs, rather than reject our illness; we need to live gently until we can live fully in our new place. I know it sounds corny, but the way we percieve our illness has a lot to do with how we live with it. Gratitude helps us to see how rich we are, it helps us to see what we have in a ight that we may never have seen it before. Losing my husband taught me how to look at the living, to be thankful in each moment, rather than always looking ahead. Watching that strong man not give up as he weakened and lost use of his body stunned me continually. Watching him love his young children in their grief, taught me what is the most important thing of life - each other; loving, living, laughing......

Moongold	09 May 2003
Greetings Skytwig, Thank you for telling this part of your life's story. A few paragraphs but a lot of meaning. That you are well acquainted with grief and joy is evident from this and your other posts. I'm fortunate to have met you. You've certainly had an impact here in a comparatively short time :) and I can feel your strength. The American women I've had contact with over the Internet have been fairly amazing. My first foray into Internet communities was in the area of chronic illness and I met three remarkable American women on Internet community a lot smaller than this. We liked each other so much and had so much in common that we set up own page on Yahoo and for two years have corresponded a couple of times a week via that page. One of them has since died but she had had such a passion for life that she lives on very much in our memories. A few weeks ago I spoke with both of the other group members by phone and it was wonderful. I had heard about Matti Stepanic through Sandy and she had even sent me a book of his poetry. We have an unusual friendship characterized by reflective sharing and that quality is most precious. The other two women are quite close to each other geographically (2000km) but they’ve never met. I am half a world away. We have exchanged photographs and life stories and hilarious tales of the little catastrophes that befall us from time to time. Even with the distance a conversation via the Internet with them is as gentle and mutual as if we are in the same room. One of them is becoming worse and she shares the details of that with us with such honesty and truth that I feel so privileged to hear her. We are similar ages and share history as well. If I were to characterize our friendship in Tarot terms I’d say it had dimensions of High Priestess, Empress and Temperance in it. If Lynne were still alive I’d add Queen Swords. The listening and the sharing are the important things, and the bonds of common experience. The adjustment to the phases of illness and the natural grief that goes with that, the “joy work”, the importance of relationships and useful activity- all of these things we share and it means a great deal to me. The heavens were smiling on all of us in that we happened to connect at a certain time. These are two pretty special American women. I’m interested, Skytwig, that you have worked in the area of drug rehabilitation. I do the same currently, but that is a story for another time. Many blessings, Moongold

Moongold	09 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Astraea It seems to me that the only truly healing option open to human beings -- healthy or ill -- is to truly be what we are, without shame or regret, to love and have compassion for others, and to serve. Everything else is window-dressing. Well, what a wonderful mission statement for we inhabitants of Earth! (I noticed your professional background). Thank you, Astraea for your lovely affirmation to all of us, and many blessings. Moongold

littleneptune	09 May 2003
Hi again. I have a difficult time talking about illness, haven't yet reached a point of serenity about my situation (even though it's been 10 years!). I find myself getting depressed if I dwell on myself and my losses for long. I envy everyone's ability here to delve into the emotional aspects of illness, without drowning. As for the 'Hanged Man' aspect of my illness, I think it comes from a deep optimism that I believe is at the core of my being. Rather than seeing illness as 'Death' (of my former life), I see it as a distressing phase that will eventally end. I have to look at life this way, in order to maintain any hope (and sanity) at all. Perhaps I am unrealistic, but I am also a Pisces, and I need my dreams...hope everyone is doing ok today :)

Moongold	09 May 2003
Hi littleneptune. I'm glad you said that. I felt exactly the same for a long time. My particular condition was such that I've always been able to work and do most things during the 30 odd years I've had the illness. I never thought of myself as "ill" first and then something else. I kept away from most associations with the illness. I think that is a normal part of the process, and a very personal choice. I do not even see it as denial but a considered choice because I knew people would view me differently and I had a career to map out and things to do. It also took me years to figure out what illness and potential disability meant to me philosophically and ethically. I'm in my 50's now and it's a time of life where one can be fully oneself. I am a little more affected as well but if you looked at me you would not know that there was anything the matter. In some ways this is even more of a "Hanged Man" effect and managing that duality has always been interesting. I could wear a few labels, littleneptune, and rather than choose which one to adopt at any one time I was simply myself and let people make their own assumptions. When circumstances called for it I've always been open. Fortunately I've been in a position where I can do this. Many are not. In my last professional position, I was supervising someone developing disability policy and worked with some wonderful people. Then I found it impossible to remain silent about my situation, and that brought immense rewards. Everything in its own time. It's a personal journey, so keep being Captain of your own ship. Pisces huh? I'm a Sagittarian with a Pisces Moon and also have some of that expansive hope :) There are nearly always issues of identity, self esteem, relationship, fear, privacy and personal choice about coming to terms with illness. I can really identify with the feeling of "drowning". Although I kept a journal, writing about this was extremely painful and there was no way that I could share it. I did once or twice and the results were quite hilarious and not something I coul say publicly! Age, a wish to explore spirituality through the study of Tarot in this wonderful place and a loving relationship have all made it possible to be a little more open. We all use pseudonyms here as well, have you noticed? :) I am working through a whole lot of other issues at the moment which require a rigorous kind of honesty. If you read some Jungian stuff about life stages you will understand. The reality is that I have not always coped and at times have really struggled. I have felt some fear in recent years about the progress of this illness and a possible loss of cognitive capacity, a very real consequence of my illness which can progress silently within. I forgot we all lose some of this as we get older but for a while I was so worried about this that I probably killed off half my brain through stress anyway :laugh:. I got a little weary of being fearful and this reflection led me to the Internet and those wonderful American women I spoke about earlier. Have you ever read Oliver Sachs? He is a neurologist fascinated with human potential and tells the most amazing stories of how people manage really challenging situations. These accounts are certainly worth looking at. Susan Sontag's "Illness as Metaphor" holds many other ideas also worth exploration. So keep on your personal path, make your own decisions, and many bright blessings! Moongold

skytwig	09 May 2003
First of all, wuhoo for the courage here!!!! It is inspiring me & hope it is true for eveyone here!! littleneptune, I was wondering if you have done some anger work with your 'illness'..... I know for me, the anger part is the hardest to express, but leads to such cleansing. I have also learned, in tackling it, that anger often expresses itself in sadness or depression. It seems to hide beneath it. Owning my anger has been frightening to me because I come from an abusive childhood. But now, I have ways of working with it that don't frighten me. If you like, I can share some of those techniques in this thread. Let me know........ :) skytwig

littleneptune	09 May 2003
Moongold--thanks for those words. I may look into Susan Sontag's book. I respect her very much as a writer and have one of her books on another topic. Skytwig--I once attended group meetings for those dealing with my condition, where we discussed our feelings about our sense of identity, our anger, etc. It was actually very helpful at the time, but didn't have much of a long-lasting effect. I think my problem is that I'm TOO in touch with my anger! (LOL!), but any guidance you have to offer will always be appreciated. :)

skytwig	09 May 2003
well, what I have found with me is that I can feel angry, but not be allowing it to breathe..... Does that make sense? Pushing it down, like a balloon in water. It kept coming back up, appearing at any little chance, sometimes at inappropriate moments. To fully express it, however, enables me to move forward, to learn something else, to feel something else! If the anger keeps coming back, then it may need to be honored. Like a child needing attention; we may need to just pay attention to it and see what it has to say or do for us. The first step, of course, is giving yourself permission to be angry. You have every right to be angry, every right to even be enraged by this. It's NOT fair. It's an a number one lousy deal. Then, when the anger comes, what do we do with it? Own it. Have it. It is yours and it is precious. It helps describe who you are and even what your dreams are for yourself. So, you pick up paper and you write and write some more and you color and you color with red and black and whatever colors say pick me up. And you write to the illness and you tell it youre angry at it and you write to whomever has hurt you in refernce to your illness and you write big and you write until there are no more words. You can also take an old telephone book and tear pages out of it and tear and tear until there is a huge pile of your anger. You can push on walls or doorframes (if you are able) to release the anger in your muscles. (I find that hitting things is too scary for me.) You can bake bread and punch the heck out of it when it's time to kneed the dough. You can punch playdo. you can make an angry mask with paper mache and make it REALLY ugly. the important thing is to let the anger OUT. Stuck anger is like poison. It becomes foul in our cells. It fogs the air of living. We don't feel happiness anymore. and the truth is, you deserve TONS of happiness. Clearing yourself of anger will make room for joy and joy, truly, is incredibly healing. Hope this helps...... :)

littleneptune	10 May 2003
Skytwig--this is good advice, I'll try it. Thanks. Take care everyone.

RedWood	10 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Do you that many children with disabilities also have special psychic abilities? They seem to know who genuinely cares for them, seem to have a real antenna in the world, piccking up so much intuitive stuff. Lots of love, Moongold I wouldn't call what my son a disability or even an illness. I call him UNIQUE LOL...Anyways, since he was a baby (he is now 3 1/2 yrs old) He has had a lactose intolerance problem. We had to buy him the lactose free formula. Then as he got off of formula I did not even think about the lactose thing. Cuz I was told by many docotors that by the time they are not using formula they will be fine. Anyway. for 1 1/2 half my son had Serious VIOLENT behavorial problems. Finally one day. Something clicked. The lactose ( I know everyone else may of figured this out sooner. ahhh well I have learned.) I pulled him off all the lactose and anything remotely spicy such as cinnamon. VOILA! That was the answer. The behavorial problems stopped. Then we went thru he was litteraly scared of eating foods cuz his stomach would hurt so bad (he used to wake up in the middle of the night screaming in pain..it was horrifying) So he got used to eating only certain foods and knowing that he could not have anything if i didnt read the ingrediants first. After a year of that and dealing with him being a bit behind. A bit behind meaning social skills. learning. Yet he learned some stuff pretty well. He was taking things apart at 2 yrs old. Now days, He is MUCH better. We are not currently working on eating vegetables etc cuz he also has digestion problems from the whole lactose thing truly messed up his system. Doctors couldnt help. I did all of this with my husband by ourselves (on top of a hip problem which i took care of also.he couldnt walk when his hip went out) Now he is slowly growing out of the lactose problem. He still cant have certain foods but he is much better. He is starting to relized that he can eat other foods and not be in pain. of course he is a very STUBBORN child. Oh he has the great stubborn streak! Anyway..if i have not bored you yet lol I do know he is very suspectable to emotions as all children but he is specially sensitve to the family. I notice he will say hi to most people but some people he wont even go near (I pay real close attention to that) I know that at times he can see our Totem animals. I wouldnt say that he has disability or an illness. BUt dealign with all of that. was very TOUGH. I am amazed at how much patience and compassion I learned. oh yes my son absolutely LOVES Dandelions. They are the most amazing flowers to him! He picks them everday!!

Moongold	10 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by RedWood Anyway..if i have not bored you yet lol. I do know he is very suspectable to emotions as all children but he is specially sensitve to the family. I notice he will say hi to most people but some people he wont even go near (I pay real close attention to that) I know that at times he can see our Totem animals. I wouldnt say that he has disability or an illness. BUt dealign with all of that. was very TOUGH. I am amazed at how much patience and compassion I learned. oh yes my son absolutely LOVES Dandelions. They are the most amazing flowers to him! He picks them everday!! (((Redwood))) You would never bore anyone with a story like this. How fortunate your son is that you had such patience and strength and love. Children often get really sick with food intolerance. Milk has been the most common difficult food I've heard of, but I know one child with a severe gluten intolerance and that has really messed up his life. It often takes so long for these issues to be understood. It will be very interesting to see how your son develops in terms of his psychic skills :) I have a friend wth a 16 year old daughter who was born with brain damage. They don't know what caused it but in Kym's life lies the most amazing love story in that family, particularly with her mother (Dad is pretty special too). It was predicted that Kym would never walk and be one of those very disabled young children who would have been institutionalized in former years. She stlll can't speak ordinary language but she has her own language and it is understood by her family. She communicates beautifully and she walks and attends a special school now. I could spend a long time speaking about her but the most important thing is the effect she has on other people and the things that she intuitively understands about other people. There is something about Kym that brings out the best qualities in most people but there is also something uncanny in how she understands others. A smile, a hug a special touch from Kym to someone who has something happening in her life that no-one knows about. Maybe there is something we give out to people with special sensitivities? Auras? I don't know, but it is quite remarkable. She also has quite strong food allergies that have once or twice nearly killed her. A specialist in Chinese medicine now treats her regularly with various herbs and other things. Redwood, thank you for posting your son's story! It is just the right way to begin the week. These are real love stories. Edited later: I wanted to ask about the effect on you. You spoke with love about your son and I can imagine what you have also taken from this, the ups and downs, but I'd love to hear you say more :) Moongold

skytwig	10 May 2003
Writing a Gratitude list is a 12 Step practice that really helps me, especially when I am tempted to wallow in self pity. I think sorrow is healthy, mind you, but I can take it too far sometimes. I was thinking of the anger work I posted and thought it would be appropriate to balance that work with Gratitude. for after learning of our losses, we need to consider our wealth, what we have, how fortunate we are, how blessed we are to be alive!!! I would even throw out a challenge to write a list of 50 things for which we are grateful! Seems like a lot, but that is what we need to see. So, along with the anger work, littleneptune, I would also add a Gratitude List, at least 50 items rich!!! And isn't that what disability or illness directs us to? going inward to find the gold. We can no longer be distracted by the trivial surface things, we have faced our 'death', we must consider truth or be forever bitter. Illness calls us to our Wisdom. and that is not such a bad calling..... Who are We? How are we Precious? What are our Values? What Gold can we explore? It is a tough path, but it is one lined with jewels..... pick up your baskets and start Gathering!! wuhooooooo :)

RedWood	11 May 2003
How My son has affected me. Well I never knew i had so much patience, tolerance and compassion. It has been really rough but most of the time with him I can maintain a sense of calmness. We live with my mom, do to i think the Universe doesnt want us to move out yet...It is very stressful because she doesnt want us there and she blames her NOT having a life on me. So my son catches the emotions. so i try and block him. All and all I have really learned a lot from having my son. For instance! I finally figured out what i want to be someday. A nutrional therapist. I may of not ever figured that out if my son had not have so many food issues (yep i ahve quite a few books on food allgergies and intolerance, healing with foods) I find it fascinating. so this works for me! I try and fix him while learninga bout something I really enjoy. I had never planned on haveing children. And was giong to adopt at 25 yrs old. I am 22 with a 3 1/2 yr old child. My how life does nto work out the way you plan. Not a bad thing. I believe there is a reason for everything (or i keep Hope alive LOL) I didnt per se expect a lto from my son. Just I did not expect him to have SO MANY issues! I have nto been around that many children in my life so my son was a HUGE and still is a HUGE learning experience. My mom is not that big of a help. She does not babysit him or anything. I think she has once or twice but he was sleeping. So I am home with him 24/7. Cept on sundays which I go see my sister withotu the child. (thankfully my husband understands this cuz he works 60 hours a week as it is) I needt hat breather on the weekend and specially PMSING..yep I said it. When I PMS i lose my patience with him which has been happening reacently so I am trying to get back on balance! He is also stubborn. I am trying to get him to eat more vegetables now that his food problems are slowly going away. and i KNOW he needs to eat better so he will poop better. He is stubborn tho. He can go all day without eating and not bat an eye. I win in the end. but he likes to push me like all kids. Of course he is testing me everyday and specially when his daddy is home. I have also relized not to be so controlling. Which i didnt knwo wwas a problem till I had him! hehe.. And i am learning not to be so Blunt or atleast be blunt but softly lol. I am sure there is more I am going to learn with him. I love the little guy My little pain in the butt! All and all. He is this amazing little person. Who is unique. Not a dull moment and he has this wicked little sense of humor that i did not know small children could have. So right now I am learning what I need to learn while I live iwth my mom. Which I have learned alot bout how she raise me and my brothers and ssisters..and When we can move out. I should learn even more.. Cant WAIT!

RedWood	11 May 2003
Your posts have lots of wisdom in them Skytwig. Thanks! Thank you Moongold for starting this amazing thread!

Moongold	11 May 2003
Thanks Redwood, I smiled often in your post because you convey beautifully the mixture of love, bemusement, frustration, surprise and reality in your life with your son. The idea of becoming a nutritional therapist sounds great and I wish you well with it. I feel as though I know you a lot better now. I knew about your tarot site but not at all about your son. You do a huge amount. Isn't amazing how when something like this enters your life then time changes meaning? Wishes become focused and you often find that you you can do so much more than you ever thought you could. At least it was like that for me. Many blessing and thanks again, Moongold

littleneptune	11 May 2003
Redwood said: We live with my mom, do to i think the Universe doesnt want us to move out yet...It is very stressful because she doesnt want us there and she blames her NOT having a life on me. I know how hard this must be. I hope some day she comes around and helps you and your son to feel more welcome. Happy Mother's Day :).

skytwig	11 May 2003
Last night, I was reading The Art of Happiness, by the Dalai Lama. In it, he speaks of perspective. How there are many, many angles from which we can perceive a situation. He spoke of losing his country, Tibet, and the horror that occurs there. He spoke of the pain and struggle, but he pointed out that being a refugee, as he is, has given him many positive occurences that he would otherswise never experienced. He states that, "... it's through a process of learning, training, and getting used to new viewpoints that enables you to deal with the difficulty." pg 176 Redwood, how wondrous that you discovered your passion for nutrition! And how precious that it became visible through the loving care & concern for your 'baby'!! He is a gift to you in so many ways. He teaches you much!! I look at my own situation and I see that I have been 'pulled/pushed' out of a situation that I was tolerating. It was using all of my energies and wisdom. It was serving as a Vampire to my goodness. Now, I am unable to work for someone else. Now, I have to consider a different viewpoint and find what I said I would "never do again unless I believe in the product!" (I was self-employed before....) Well, now my product is something I believe in.... me!! I am an artist and a writer. I have written FREE for organizations for years. Now it is time to do it the way I want to do..... and the thing is, this disability is forcing me to do it!!! I'm not sure I would have stepped out on my own. Working for others, slaving for others, was literally 'breaking my back'. And it was robbing me & the world of my gifts!! So, is it possible that there are tremendous gifts in our illnesses? What do you see for yourselves, moongold & littleneptune. Is there something precious in all that frustration? Is there a pearl you would not have seen?........

Moongold	11 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by skytwig So, is it possible that there are tremendous gifts in our illnesses? What do you see for yourselves, moongold & littleneptune. Is there something precious in all that frustration? Is there a pearl you would not have seen?........ Of course there have been many pearls and much wisdom, much fun and much achievement. The experience of illness changed my life. I don't think I have conveyed the impression that all is frustration, have I? :) Hope not. There have always been parallel processes for me of those really positive times, the deep learning, the friendships, the things that I would never have discovered and also..................the sadness, the occasional despair, the tiredness. I think it is important for me to acknowledge both processes, all themes. Most of the time one does this privately but I think it is also important to do it with friends, loved ones and publicly on occasion. It is part of being fully human. Of course one chooses one's moment and time. It is a different way of managing feelings - acknowledging them and lettling them go. I think it is just as important to be able to cry as to laugh. The joys and achievements? The most immediate ones that come to mind are the self-awareness and gradual self acceptance. The deeper friendships that are possible because of that. An increased capacity to give and a real desire to do that. A deeper, more real understanding of what it is to be fully human - noble and frail and all those contradictions at the same time. An understanding of advocacy and what it means. Expanded work experience. The discovery of Jacqueline Du Pre and her amazing cello. I am much more than a person with an illness. I've had three professions, I have five degrees, diplomas and other qualifications, the last one being a Masters in my late 40's. I'm an pretty good amateur photographer. I'm a gay woman who participated in the wonderful liberation movements of the 70's and 80's, particularly in terms of the health of gay women. I've travelled the road of family and community acceptance that most of my brothers and sisters in spirit travel as a normal part of their lives, but in the 60's and 70's it was a wee bit harder. I survived a large Catholic family and remained friends with them all. I am the honoured eccentric Aunt of 13 nieces and nephews, and I love the role. I have a loving close relationship that came as an absolute gift after I'd resigned myself to spending the rest of my life with a good book. I've had big successes and terrible failures. Alongside that I am tender, loving, funny, eccentric, prickly, sad, occasionally really depressed, tired, creative, hopeful, sensitive, forgetful. disorganised, grateful..........and I love cats. I know that certainty is uncertain too and that we just keep walking ahead, and turn our faces to the wind. If we are lucky enough there will always be people with us. Moongold

skytwig	11 May 2003
Thank you, Moongold, what beautiful writing..... You provide so much for so many. I find for me, that advocacy has always been a part of my life, but it is only recently that I have recognized it. Interestingly, my current circumstances with employee rights (my own) and disability rights has turned my awareness to advocy for me! Arising as I did from a very narrow-minded, cruel family, and being the oldest child of that 'cult', I learned, early on, to rescue. I worried terribly for my younger siblings and my mentally ill father. Now, comes a period of advocating for my own well-being. Dealing with the EEOC and court systems, dealing with self-healing, especially on an emotional level, and dealing with issues of lost childhood; finding that there is even more work (play!) that i need to embrace! We become such gleaming examples of humanity through embracing out individual dilemnas. And isn't that the wonder of the Tower card and the Death card.... we find our Sun and Star and the depth of the Temperance card! PS: sorry, moongold. I didn't mean to intimate that you havent shared beauty. You have!!!

Moongold	11 May 2003
Hey Skytwig, We have a lot in common :). You're talking to someone whose Shadow card is Tower, and can you show me anyone from a Catholic background who is not well aquainted with the Devil? Everyone is different but I think there are times in our lives when we have to take different roles: sometimes advocacy, sometimes reflection, sometimes action, sometimes letting go. One thing I sense we do have i strongly in common that is really important to those of us who remain silent for whatever reason, is the desire to show ourselves as fully human. I think that is one of the most important facets of advocacy. Have to go to work now Moongold

skytwig	11 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold You're talking to someone whose Shadow card is Tower, and can you show me anyone from a Catholic background who is not well aquainted with the Devil? ... One thing I sense we do have i strongly in common ... is the desire to show ourselves as fully human. I think that is one of the most important facets of advocacy. Yes, so true. I am an addict in recovery and when I first confronted social prejudice against addicts, I decided to be 'out' with it. As a woman and a mother, being an addict meant reams of shaming and disgust from others. In the treatment forum I worked in, most of the clientelle are women, primarily because their shame issues are huge; they would rather deal with it privately. 'Coming out' in 12 steps meetings is too hard for them. Part of my 'shame work' was a decision to speak about my disease and write about it. The women devoured every piece of writing I put out for them. Interestingly, my boss, the President of the organization, tolerated my personal 'mission' to share, but he discouraged it. He had his own prejudice, unknown to him, about addict women! He stopped counselors from using me as a speaker and he demanded that i no longer speak with clients!!! It was wild! and now I am dealing with a Federal lawsuit that confronts the issue of discrimination. There were times, during the escalation of the discrimination (it was for a sexual harassment complaint I submitted against one of his clinical directors), I was tempted to hide. Thank goodness my heart was too deeply committed. No, I concluded, men cannot treat women this way!! Now, I am so glad I am doing this because it will affect the treatment of all those women he forbade me to help!!! If I had been unwilling to be Honest and Truthful about me, I may never have found this Avenue to Freedom. Interestingly, the discrimination culminated in prejudice against disability, something EEOC pointed out to me. The President fired my, by mail, while I was out on medical leave. He sited the reason as my health! I find that when we speak about our humanity, our spirituality shines. Sharing our struggles enables others to say, wow, I am not alone. They share and we end up learning something from them. I had to sneak around to talk with these courageous women and I'm glad I did. One young mother was just murdered and if I had avoided her, as I was instructed, I never would have been able to share her light with her. She was a poet and I helped her to find that part of her beautiful spirit! She was shocked that I was an addict too. If I had not reached out and showed her my struggle with shame, I would not have her wondrous face as a cherished memory today, and she would not have had those smiles, (oh they were delicious!), or that inspiration as we spoke.....

Moongold	12 May 2003
Hello Skytwig, Thank you for sharing your story, Skytwig. It sounds horrific and as the case is still pending for you the stress must be fairly major. I admire your courage in standing up and wanted to acknowledge you this evening. I also want to particularly acknowledge your personal honesty. I am tired and preoccupied at this moment and may be able to say something a little more thoughtful tomorrow. Many blessings, Moongold

Belladonna	12 May 2003
Hi. I've been following this thread and I hope I don't appear to be an eavesdropper, but since it is available to everyone... I'm not exactly sure what it is I'm trying to say here, but it goes something like this: I want to thank you both for your everything. Your courage, your honesty, your compassion, your strength, your joy, your pain, your wisdom and your willingness to share. I feel extremely privileged to be in your midst, even your virtual midst. I am in awe of your stories and touched beyond measure and filled with hope, and strangely comforted. With all due respect, I wonder if you've ever considered starting a coven or other spiratual group in which you could share your experience with other young women. I've become aware that you are both a little older than I (I'm 27) and I can tell you from MY experience that young women today are desperately in need of the guidance, wisdom, and compassion built on experience that you both seem to embody. I strongly believe that women in our culture suffer greatly from a lack of right relationship to other women. Especially now that families are more commenly spread over great distances. There is such a need for a place where women can be part of a sisterhood, where women can be understood and taught by other women, where they can celebrate rites of passage and oh, I can go on and on. Well, I hope I haven't appeared too off the wall, and I certainly hope I haven't given offense to you Moongold and Skytwig. I just know that I count myself fortunate even just to read your words and that other young women could only benefit from your wisdom. Much love and light, Belladonna

Logiatrix	12 May 2003
Originally posted by skytwig: "....And isn't that what disability or illness directs us to? going inward to find the gold. We can no longer be distracted by the trivial surface things, we have faced our 'death', we must consider truth or be forever bitter. Illness calls us to our Wisdom. and that is not such a bad calling..... Who are We? How are we Precious? What are our Values? What Gold can we explore?" YES! Gratitude is the key to not only surviving, but LIVING... I have been physically disabled since age 19. I have lost my vision and been in a wheelchair. I was told that I probably would not live very far into my forties. Thanks to the miracle of medicine and two fantastic surgeons, I am now ambulatory and have partial vision. It looks like I'm gonna get old, too. :D I think my experiences with illness have been a blessing. I believe I might not have been such a wonderful person if I hadn't become disabled. It makes me cringe to admit that, but I vow never to forget who I was becoming. Vain, shallow, ignorant...*sigh* There was I time--before--when I couldn't even look at someone in a wheelchair; it was fear, I suppose. Talk about karma-in-the-same-lifetime! I BECAME one of those people I feared, and I was treated the same way. Now, I have compassion for those who treated me poorly as a disabled person, and I have compassion for others who are disabled. In my job now, I assist disabled college students with a variety of challenges--I love my job! My point, after all that? ;) Well, I am grateful for how The Tower has shaped my soul...despite all the pain, frustration and fear, I am ultimately BLESSED. :)

Moongold	12 May 2003
Greetings all, and especially Skytwig, Thank you also, Belladonna, for your warm words. Yes, we have some good things to offer in terms of experience and knowledge, understanding. I also get a huge amount from the fresh vision, energy and questions of youger women. I enjoy their company immensely. Can I share a few thoughts? I drew a card this morning in relation to this thread. It was Thoth 6 Swords (Science). I'm just learning Thoth, but this is a positive card, Mercury in Aquarius: the ability to analyse, bring things together from different levels and different perspectives. Mercury is really important astrologically for me. It's in my 12th House, conjunct Sun and Jupiter, trine Saturn and Pluto. The Sun conjunction facilitates my speaking honestly I think, or makes it necessary. I'm relatively new to astrology and tarot as well, so please correct me if it seems appropriate. The thread started as wistful kind of letting go or reflection about a few hours of physical and spiritual weariness. Just letting life wash over. I didn't really know where it would go and it is in a nice place. Some really good things have happened. I was very moved by your story and your courage Skytwig and I've been impressed with your knowledge and insights in other parts of the forum. I think others engage enthusiastically with your energy too. I was also really moved by Redwood's experience, littleneptune's thoughts and appreciative of the comments of others I walk into a place like Aeclectic and stand with hundreds of other shining souls. I gravitate immediately to the sidelines because that is where I am most comfortable and where I can be myself whilst deciding where I can be most useful. I also carry some deep scars and sometimes the jostling places me at risk. I can be rewounded. Sometimes I can be at the front, but mostly not. I am still healing, and reclusive by nature, and I need to walk quietly along the side of the road where I can rest for a while under a tree and watch the passing throng. In this position I can turn and look into the shaded forest for a while, or take a detour down a side path, looking for dandelions or scrub roses. Sometimes I meet a fellow traveller. Last night in my reflections I met the Hermit once more. He is my Year Card at the moment and reminds me that I've a long way to go on the internal journey. This is really important right now. I have learned that the internal journey need not be taken alone. In fact, it is much better in company, with fellow travellers, and you have described sharing your own internal journey with the women in your program most beautifully. I hope we can have some more conversations about this work. I need to withdraw quietly now and attend to some rest and internal reflections but I'm not leaving. I'm just walking along the side of the road for a while. :) That is why I came to Tarot - to find a stronger path and I can't let go of that aim just yet. Many blessings Moongold

Astraea	12 May 2003
My eyes are filled with tears as I read these beautiful posts. Knowing that my Christian faith is a minority view on the forum -- for very understandable reasons -- I hesitate to say what is truly in my heart, lest it be understood as an expression of religion, instead of love. Yet I am moved to state that I see Spirit, God and Goddess as a unified force -- and when I say "God bless you" to everyone here, it is in the fullness of a heart that wishes the highest good for all who have shared their lives, their truths, so bravely. I join each of you on the path, as one who has -- like yourselves -- grown in compassion as a result of facing serious illness. That experience has taught me the truth of a statement made by Edgar Cayce (paraphrasing): we can only take two things with us when we live this sphere -- love and knowledge. We are brothers and sisters upon the way. May each of you be richly blessed in whatever ways serve you best!

skytwig	12 May 2003
Astrea, please do not feel shame or fear for your beliefs here. All are honored. I personally believe that all religions are real and that the Universe is certainly big enough to accomodate all of them. If that were not true, then there wouldn't be so many perspectives of what IS. Many of us Reiki healers believe that Jesus was a Reiki healer too and that those missing years in his life were spent in Tibet..... Who would I Be if I were to judge any belief? I can only work on honoring me and what I need to See. I came to a point in my life where i found conflict between my upbringing and my heart. I had to let the Christian belief go and take up my broom. That was for me. I personally loooooove nuns and go for walks in a beautiful olde convent cemetary for the energy there. Sacred is sacred, wherever and however it manifests! Thank you for your touching words. :) skytwig

Astraea	12 May 2003
Skytwig, you are very kind. I do not feel shame or fear about my beliefs, but I am well aware of the disgraceful history of the Christian church in relation to practitioners of other forms of worship, and am sensitive to the fact that many on this forum -- myself included -- would just as soon not be reminded of that! My Christian faith is based on a trust in the Cosmic Christ, a very different entity from the celestial bully many Christians seem to follow. I agree with you completely -- sacred is sacred. :)

Moongold	13 May 2003
I’d like to speak about depression in physical illness. I do this very carefully because it is very easy to regard depression as self-pity. Depression is one dimension of human experience. Thomas Moore in Care of the Soul speaks of the gifts of depression. His thesis is that the soul presents itself in a range of colours and to care for ourselves we must be able to fully observe and approve of the full range of colours, not just the bright ones: Some feelings and thoughts seem to emerge only in a dark mood. Suppress the mood and you will suppress those ideas and reflections. Depression may be as important a channel for valuable ‘negative’ feelings as expressions of affection are for the emotions of love. Feelings of love give birth naturally to expressions of attachment. In the same way the void and grayness of depression evoke an awareness and articulation of insights otherwise hidden behind the screen of lighter moods. Melancholy gives the soul an opportunity to express a side of its nature that is as valid as any other, but is hidden out of our distaste for its darkness and bitterness This really difficult territory, I know, and perhaps it may be seen as weakness or indulgence to bring it into the open. The women in my family were like this. Where survival is concerned you have no time for depression. You have to keep on going to put bread on the table, to keep the equilibrium when everyone is depending on you. These are legitimate positions. What is to be lost and what gained from bringing this issue out into the open? The reality is that depression is often a physical consequence of some conditions. That grief and loss often result in a stage of depression. Depression is often a natural part of aging. Moore has a beautiful phrase, applicable to young and old: . Speaking about openly about depression is one way of removing the stigma and opening the door to the gifts of the experience. beyond the door is the gift of insight and joy. I have my own life long (before illness) experience of cyclical depression. I’ve only once taken medication which had such a frightening effect that I stopped after a week. I know the difference between self pity and depression. I am beginning to see depression as a natural part of the cycle of life where real spiritual growth can occur. The Tarot has been immensely useful to me in the last three months by providing insight. I rarely get the scary throws now. I’m even sometimes seeing the Tower as bit of a friend Oh no…Not you again! . There was a really interesting thread here a few weeks ago initiated by Kiama: The Dark Night of the Soulwhere some of these themes were explored. I know we have to be careful and I acknowledge that perhaps I’m only able to speak about this because I know that something is ending. The answers lie in insight and awareness, I think. If we can be aware, we can prepare. Sometimes it’s a matter of language. It might be better to say to someone You might not feel so good for a while but that is fairly normal and it will pass than You may be depressed… There's no one way of thinking about this and thse are just a few of my thoughts. I know there could well, and already have been in fact, other comments about joy, triumph and achievement. None of this is mutually exclusive.

skytwig	13 May 2003
so profound..... Care of the Soul is an exquisite book! I love that he honors depression. Shadow work is rich with resources that we would do well to explore/ Kubler Ross, in her 5 stages of grief, talks of depression, sadness as a HEALTHY part of acceptance! If we ignore it or 'chase it out of the room' like a "bad" child, we lose! Some of us have depression that is dibilitating, a brain disorder that needs medication. I am one such person. As a child, I wanted to kill myself! Balancing that with the necessary griefwork has been a challenge, but is not impossible. Taking medication enables me to handle sadness without being crippled or hurt by it. And yes, fully feeling the sadness is sooooooo important to managing our various stages of illness/disablity. Just as handling the anger that arises, sadness must, simply must be allowed to breathe. i remember when i finally surrendered to the idea of medication (I was plotting suicide yet again and my son's words of love on the voicemail stopped me!), I so feared I would lose my poetry!!! I didn't of course, but what I was expressing was the wealth of information and insight we achieve in the Shadows!!! Disablity and illness tend to force us to consider that door. Could it be that, when illness/disability arrives, we are ready for such endeavors? Maybe. So, the question is, how do we do it safely? how do we honor our need to grieve? We take our lessons from the Moon and Temperance, we apply creative thinking and creative wonder and we gently walk the land of our souls. We learn, in so doing, that we will not be swept away in terror. we learn that we have courage that is in our Strength card and we find that we are each a wondrous knight confronting fears and our hair blows wildly in the winds of that exploration and we see that weakness is really Strength!

Belladonna	13 May 2003
ooo. This is hitting on something very nearly too close to comfort.

Logiatrix	13 May 2003
Hello Everyone, I sooo agree, Belladonna--too close for comfort, but terribly necessary. I was diagnosed with clinical depression last year, ironically this was AFTER I was becoming physically more well and able... I am now on medication and I attend a support group and see a therapist. Initially, I very much resented any allusions to "embracing" my depression, "learning" from it, let alone fully FEELING it; the idea that depression was a NECESSARY process of healing seemed impossible to me. No way, I just want to die, I have no worth, life just sucks...blahblahblah... Don't worry, I'm doing okay now... :) I still have a LONG way to go, but I have learned to befriend my depression. In doing so, I am able to FEEL it safely. I have learned to "invite my monsters to tea", so to speak. When I welcome the pain instead of pushing it down or away, I can take it in on my terms and locate the trigger. I have learned a few specific techniques and responses to help me cope. Learning to acknowledge the healing aspects of depression has been the first and most important step toward conquering it. I absolutely LOVE what you said about the Moon and Temperance and Strength cards, skytwig. (Off to my cards...woo-hoo! :D ) Peace!

Moongold	18 May 2003
Having an illness or a disability precipitates us into a new reality. It can be quite shocking, as though one is falling through space. Can I give you glimpses of my own experience? I am sitting at my desk as a 21 year old trying to index a newspaper, part of my daily work. I hold the pen but my hand suddenly looses the capacity to write. I put the pen down and pick it up again a dozen times but this simple task is no longer possible. Shock ripples through my body. I glance around the room to see if anyone has noticed my sudden incapacity. Light beams through the window and the bodies hunched over desks, totally focused on what they are doing, don’t move. I breathe deeply. Perhaps nothing has changed at all and I pick up the pen again. This time it slides from my hands and my fingers flop like a glove filled with sand. Shock ripples through my body again. Perhaps I am dying? When I walked into this room I could do anything. In a few short minutes I have lost my hand! The library is peaceful, the morning sun now pours through the windows, flickering on the plastic jackets of the books. The books are my familiar old friends. How many times have I held them, turned the pages looking for the answers to such profound questions as what is love, how does a centipede grow his legs, where did d the word ‘gay’ come from? Nothing has changed but I feel as though I have been shot. My hand lies on the desk in front of me, wounded, and I draw it in to my chest, holding it gently as though the tenderness will restore it to life. That was my first experience of this illness. I have had many since, always different, and the feeling of shock still resonates each time. Many of you will immediately understand this experience. Each episode is a Tower event, and it thrusts me into new dimensions of time, space and sensation. My balance is suddenly removed and I teeter uncertainly on the footpath of my once ordinary life. I am different, but everything around me remains as it was. I’m removed from life and watching it from another space, through veiled windows. Sometimes my senses have been sharpened and I have used this reorientation creatively and other times I’ve been stunned, fallen off the footpath and lain unconscious at the bottom for considerable time. For the last couple of years I have been in a kind of fugue like this, keeping on with ordinary life but feeling as though I’ve been somehow removed from it. It’s been like a kind of metaphysical concussion in some ways. The most apt description that comes to mind is 4 Swords. The Knight is asleep, paralysed, trapped in his armour, but there is a sense that life has not ended. The upraised hands and the mellow light in the picture give the impression that this is a sleep, a fugue from which the Knight will emerge again. Some years ago I was studying the processes of creativity for a management course of all things. The book I found most helpful was a study of creativity in the artistic sense and it proposed various ideas and simple techniques to stimulate new thinking. There is another thread in this forum currently about creativity and writers block which I’ve been following with interest which explores similar ideas. The shocking experiences of illness and disability provide a natural pathway to creativity, whether it is in a spiritual or material sense. We are catapulted, as it were to new dimensions of awareness. Some of you have said this in this thread in the last couple of week. I can actually hear it in your voices – Redwood's joy in her son, in the discovery of her own resources and a new sense of purpose, littleneptune’s curiosity, hesitation but readiness to open another door, Belladonna’s identification, Skytwig’ s energy and clear creative vision, Astraea’s meditative support and reflection, Tauni's discovery of her own spiritual resources. These are quite incomplete summaries of what I’ve heard. We are the created and creators. Illness and disability chisel us but we become sculptors too by virtue of this experience. This perspective helps me to make sense of the depression of the last two years. This aspect of illness reframes me but turns me into an artist of my own definition. It happens again and again, but this time it took me sometime to realise it. Metaphysical concussion? :)

Astraea	18 May 2003
Moongold, once again you have moved me to the depths of my being. Your description of your first awareness of your illness, and your unfolding consciousness of it, are beautiful, loving, tender and real. Yes -- the mind reels, and at the same time it recognizes the body, its vehicle, as the wounded being it is, the animal struck by a car by the side of the road, not knowing what has hit it. I understand. And then there is the deepest, most ultimate truth there is: that this event, these circumstances, blast or wear a path in consciousness for creativity to flow. Your writing is inspired by it, propelled by that eternal universal force. It has become a trite saying, but it is nevertheless true that each of us is dying, every day. The entire raison d'etre of many spiritual practices is precisely the exercise of conscious dying. So those of us who have experienced, and live with, illness are in a sense the most fortunate of beings. When our time comes, we can hopefully walk with awareness across the bridge, and hold out our hands to others on the path -- some ahead of us, some still to come.

skytwig	18 May 2003
Oh, Moongold, my heart ached as I read your experience, everything in me wanted to enfold you in comfort and healing. No, this is not happening to her, this is not her reality! Please, please, i wanted to cry out, her 21 was to be the joy of living, not this shocking loss, this fearsome path of dread..... A friend of mine had given me odd symptoms for years and had been going to doctors about it. Tingling in her arms, numbness at times. It wasn't the much 'simpler', more 'workable diagnosis, such as a disc bulging in her neck. It was something we fear in our young adult years - MS. I remember the grief i experienced for her. I remember the sense of helplessness and even anger. Here, in my own difficulty with a bulging disc at the very place where we bend the most, right where the hips and the spine meet, i watch my children adjust to my more dependent state. I watch as i adjust to it. Soooo angry at times. So sad. Watching my young husband struggle with terminal cancer for 4 years, watching him lose his youth, his manhood, his strength, his dignity and finally his mental awareness, was a long, slow confrontation with the Tower. For not only him, but his two young children and me, his 'child bride' who had been 19 when we married and was now in her early 30s preparing to be his widow. He taught me much about continuing anyway, not giving up, living fully and well. But he also taught me how NOT to deal with it. His denial, his refusal to accept his limitations and the terminal aspect of his disease caused us to lose what I vowed to never lose again. Here with my children, here, curled up on my daughter's couch, about to eat the wonderful quiche she prepared for me, I know I learned well..... in the long run, it's the loved ones in our lives that are our treasures. It is love that makes our lives sing. She took me in this weekend because I needed some simple loving care. I just needed to rest and play with her marvelous cats, let them curl up on me as i slept, let her spoil me 'rotten'. The Empress is an aspect of dealing with the Tower that we do well to learn. Yes, we want to refuse the illness or the disability, we want to insist that we are 'still the same' in many ways. But we will find that it is not so much strength in a Warrior kind of way as it is Strength in allowing others to love us and help us and find what jewels they may in their own grief and awakening to what we are experiencing. They too are experiencing a Tower, and in allowing their care, in whatever ways that may come, we give them the gift of loving us and being loved. Have we discovered yet another jewel available to us? ;) skytwig

Moongold	18 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Astraea Yes -- the mind reels, and at the same time it recognizes the body, its vehicle, as the wounded being it is, the animal struck by a car by the side of the road, not knowing what has hit it. I understand. And then there is the deepest, most ultimate truth there is: that this event, these circumstances, blast or wear a path in consciousness for creativity to flow. .......... we can hopefully walk with awareness across the bridge, and hold out our hands to others on the path -- some ahead of us, some still to come. Yes, dear Astraea, you do understand. I can feel this. :)

Moongold	18 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by skytwig ...........it is Strength in allowing others to love us and help us and find what jewels they may in their own grief and awakening to what we are experiencing. They too are experiencing a Tower, and in allowing their care, in whatever ways that may come, we give them the gift of loving us and being loved. This is so important, isn't it? Thank you for saying it....:)

Moongold	26 May 2003
It is the quiet of Monday evening after a full but productive day at work. We gave a presentation about women and addiction to a class of 18 year olds who had flat energy levels. Even my true story about the woman whose Madam sent her to AA failed to rise much more than a weak grin on some faces. It is part of the story of one of my oldest friends, and how many times we have folded over with laughter at this same story. The brothel happened to be above the AA offices not far from here at that time. My friend’s story is a modern epic I smile again and the old aching joy wells up. This quiet wave of joy, a sense of connectedness to something true and beautiful! Yes, I am a part of something whose consciousness is immeasurable. I long to find it, to reach out and touch it, to walk into it and through it, lose myself absolutely in it. Something has been changing in the last few weeks, something coming to an end or a beginning? MeeWah sent me a simple rhodolite stone that she had been charging with moon and sunlight for the last few months and I have it on me now – a simple gift of love which moved me deeply. Everytime I wear it I cry, not with sorrow but release. I sometimes wonder, and this is again dangerous territory, whether my illness is not the manifestation of a spiritual wound, present perhaps from birth, or carried over from another life? I’m beginning to believe these things now. I used to feel angry when people suggested this sort of thing but now I wonder whether for me it does make sense? It doesn’t explain the pain of others but it connects with mine. Let me share something with you. More than twenty years ago I temporarily lost my sight as a consequence of this illness. It was a critical time and a couple of nights after the second eye went I had an amazing dream. I was in a library, a great cavernous room with light streaming through a dome in the roof. It wasn’t sunlight but indescribable light. The light and darkness was somehow the same thing. A distance voice told me that I would be all right if I did certain things but the voice did not say what to do. It didn’t matter because I knew instinctively and the next few months were amongst the happiest of my life. My sight returned except for the left eye but I am perfectly functional. Two people here, quite separately, have suggested, without knowing my past, that in a former life I was a religious who worked in a library or its equivalent. They did not know I have been a librarian in this life as well. They did not know about the dream which I have always regarded in my limited way as a spiritual experience. What does it all mean? I’m seeking understanding in my own way, becoming willing to see what there is to see. Perhaps it is the construction of meaning when I desperately need it? Perhaps it is reality? But I trust the deep feelings which are connected with these thoughts, and which bring a definite joy. These feelings change my physical and psychological reality. It is too precious a change to disregard. I have a sense of walking into that reality where darkness and light are the same and I don’t want to lose my way this time. The odd thought occurred to me.... am I dying again?....... I don't know. Every change is a kind of death, isn't it? A departure....a leaving. A natural thing. I have absolutely no fear, more a kind of excitement and curiosity about what this next stage of my life might bring. The consequence of this odd state of consciousness is the sweet sharpness of each moment, tempered only by my physical weariness. Don't feel concerned or alarmed. :) I seriously doubt that departure from this mortal realm is likely in the near future. The reality is, however, is that Fear has picked up his shoulder bag and moved on leaving me, for the moment, free to walk unencumbered.

Astraea	26 May 2003
Oh, what a lovely statement of grace in the present moment. Please know that my prayers, as loving intention translated into whichever language of spirit best expresses who you are, are with you always.

Moongold	27 May 2003
To dear Astraea and Skytwig, Both of you have listened to my rambling thoughts and given encouragement with gentle comments and shared experience. Skytwig, I know you have been going through a rugged time and I suspect that physical pain is possibly a constant companion but you don’t mention it. To have chosen your path at this time shows astonishing courage and I admire you deeply. Astraea, you alluded briefly to your own situation, which I can only guess at, but the understanding you show indicates a more than passing familiarity with the issues we have discussed in this thread. Your graciousness has been ever present. Thank you both for your generosity of spirit, and also to Belladonna, Redwood, littleneptume and tauni, thank you ......

Astraea	27 May 2003
Yes, Moongold, a health crisis two years ago opened my eyes to many things. I discovered a lump in my breast which turned out to be cancer; I was treated for it and appear to be clear of it now, but one never really knows for certain. This is true for all of us, as where we will be from one minute to the next is never certain -- but persons who have faced ultimate issues have the opportunity to recognize the truth of this situation with stunning clarity and immediacy, and when that happens, the diagnosis can become an open door to such an influx of new life, compassion and creativity, that the disease itself becomes the bearer of blessings. Especially in the West, we are taught to "fight" disease, to "attack" certain cells, to "go to war" on disease processes; our attitude toward life in all its forms seems to be one of hostility. But the experience of cancer taught me that what is called for, on a deeper level than meeting the disease with aggressive techniques (though some of them are necessary and useful), is a full and loving embrace and acceptance of self, including the condition that threatens one. Cancer cells are not invaders from without, but forms of oneself; they were my twisted cells, my misshapen substance. A radical change of approach in my relationship with self and soul was called for, in addition to -- and probably much more than -- external treatment. Behind questions of diagnosis and treatment of disease, stand the most critical issues of all: how will we meet infirmity, in ourselves and others? What might it mean, symbolically? It dawned on me that, even if I died (as we all will one day, on the physical plane), I would die into something -- for me, that something was the subject and object of my faith. We search for answers, not in order to judge ourselves, but to find creative new approaches to life. For there is no death, though we are always dying; we assume new forms at every moment, on all levels of being. Those of us who have had the privilege of facing ultimate questions, personally and intimately, are humbled before them -- and potentially reborn into a more expansive world and way of living than we have ever known. Your own progress through a process of many years' duration has awakened and enlivened you in a way that inspires others, and which transforms your own soul into an ever-brighter beacon of light. God/Goddess bless you, my friend, and all who visit this thread, this forum, this world, this planet.

Moongold	27 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Astraea Cancer cells are not invaders from without, but forms of oneself; they were my twisted cells, my misshapen substance. A radical change of approach in my relationship with self and soul was called for, in addition to -- and probably much more than -- external treatment. Astraea, for you this was awareness, acceptance and faith? And part of this was love of self - acceptance of self as part of creation? I opened up Stephen Mitchell's translations of the psalms this morning and the book fell open at Psalm 121. I'm not a Christian but find signs of faith in others quite compelling, and some of the Psalms are just beautiful. This one speaks about looking deep into the heart where the Unnameable resides. Forgive me for asking these questions. At Aeclectic there are immense lakes of spirituality. I know it is there and have felt it quite strongly in this thread, and often in other interactions. Do you know the poem by Rilke, She who never arrived?. It is a very human poem but I see it as being so beautifully expressive of the soul's yearning for God/Goddess. In other work, Rilke enjoins us to look for meaning in the small things, the present moment. I've felt that you've managed to encounter the Divine and hold it within and that in this holding is the healing? Please, do not feel obliged to answer :) My questions could go on for eternity.....and questions sometimes prevent discovery (Know myself well). If you would like to speak more about the process you undertook, I would like to hear it.

Astraea	27 May 2003
Moongold, my friend, you have stated it beautifully. The only hesitation I have in speaking more fully about my own healing process is that I would not want my words to be construed as in some way blaming myself (meaning my conscious personality) for the illness, and perhaps -- by extension -- painting others with the same broad brush; I believe that the total expression of my personality at the time of the diagnosis, and for years before that, supported the process of illness, rather than health -- which is not the same thing as saying I caused it, knowingly and willfully. When I first received the diagnosis, I cried -- but then I experienced a great rush of tenderness toward my own body (the stricken animal by the side of the road that we spoke of earlier), and the heroic efforts it had been making, unbeknownst to me, to balance itself. I felt intuitively that the aggressive words heard so often within the cancer treatment community -- "fight," "war," "kill," "destroy" -- were at the root of the illness, itself; it seemed to me that the whole reason I had gotten cancer in the first place, was internal division and repression of emotions, creativity and nurturance. So my healing had to begin with accepting those errant cells as my own substance. Since I already knew that true psychological change and spiritual growth begin with a profound acceptance of what already is, I felt a similar need to express compassion for the cells that had gone out of alignment, the parts of me that were out of kilter. I wanted those cancer cells to be gone, obviously, but also to understand their genesis. My body, after all, is a condensation of energy, a dense expression of my total being; it was my own cells that had become cancerous, not someone else's -- the process began within my own body, regardless of the initiating stimuli (heredity, hormones, etc.). What might it have been within me that supported this distortion? That understanding became -- continues to be -- my quest. I do not think that my present body is simply the expression of cause and effect in this lifetime -- it seems to me that our substance, as it descends the subtle planes into manifestation, carries with it the seed-content of other lifetimes, and these fuse with those of our genetic ancestors to create a series of potentials -- probability waves -- that might, or might not, result in certain outcomes. We know that attitude has a profound effect on health, so perhaps by seeking to understand what went amiss here, I can begin to create a stronger, healthier body not only now, but in future lifetimes. More and more, the cancer treatment community is coming to understanding this disease as a chronic process, not one which can be "conquered" at some point -- after all, cancer is simply cell division run amok, and cell division is a natural process, and thus not one we would ordinarily associate with the vocabulary of victor and vanquished. It is said that our bodies produce these malformed cells at an astonishing rate, and usually the healthy cells recognize a coding error and consume their wayward counterparts. Cancer begins with just one cell that replicates wildly, and it often takes many years for a mass to become apparent -- six-to-eight, for the form of breast cancer I had. When treatment ends, one is still not certain that cancer has ended, too. Are there still cells bent on behaving in errant ways? What can I do, on every level, to support health at the cellular level? These are the questions that drive my healing process. Because healing doesn't ultimately come down to whether or not I die (as I will, one day), but how I live. I experienced a deep return to the faith of my childhood when all of this transpired. It was the Christ Consciousness I sought, the living Fountainhead within me, not the punitive God of many churches -- and it actually became all right with me to die (though desiring to live on in this body), because I knew that I would die into Christ, and not into mere nothingness. Others experience different forms of spiritual renewal. All true healing begins and ends with love -- love is the healer, the only healer. Faith that expresses and encompasses love supports health; narrow, closed, restrictive belief systems not only do not foster health, but lead to dark places of fear and isolation from one's fellows -- and thus from oneself. Love is my wish for everyone here, for the world and the planet, that all may truly live.

amyel	27 May 2003
Astraea, that was a very moving post.

Moongold	27 May 2003
Dear Astraea, Quote: .. what is called for, on a deeper level than meeting the disease with aggressive techniques (though some of them are necessary and useful), is a full and loving embrace and acceptance of self, including the condition that threatens one. Thank you for your beautiful post. These gentle words are the key to everything…. … a full and loving embrace and acceptance of self, including the condition that threatens one…. With that acceptance comes the capacity to live and to grow, and one does that with through the exercise of love. In some ways I return to the first post in this thread, which was a question about maintaining the tenderness, the freshness, the determination and the commitment. I judge myself very harshly from time to time and despite understanding a great deal and having many glimpses of happiness was never fully convinced that I was loveable . That last final step of surrender.....loving and accepting ourselves as we are. I could always find reasons to back out at the last minute. It is a journey however. There is a wonderful card in the Osho Zen Tarot of a figure launching herself into infinity. The image is actually called Trust . It is beautiful. I think I’d like to continue this dialogue but can’t find the words at the moment. Bless you, Astraea, and bless everyone our thoughts and words touch .

Astraea	28 May 2003
Oh, yes, that card is beautiful and so eloquent! And I looked up the Rilke poem you mentioned earlier -- how lovely, how meaningful. Thank you so much for telling us about it.

Minderwiz	29 May 2003
Moongold, Astraea, I've been following this thread but have not felt that I could contribute anything to it - not from my own experience anyhow. But I am moved to say that if I am faced with chronic illness such as you both have endured I hope that I have the courage to face it with the same humanity as you have. God bless you both

skytwig	29 May 2003
I am virtually 'singing' with the beauty here! I'm going to have to print this thread because there is just so much, so much! moongold, what a path you have traveled. I am in awe of your strength! astrea - yes & yes. so profound! minderwiz - read & re-read, then when you are ready, maybe you can share some of the things you are struggling with.... if not here, then in PMs? So much delicious wisdom here! Thank you.

Minderwiz	29 May 2003
Skytwig, Well I'm not struggling with anything - I've not had to face up to what Moongold and Astraea have had to deal with - my point was that I am greatly in awe of the sheer spiritual strength with which they conducted their lives in the face of adversity. Makes me feel rather humble.

skytwig	29 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz But I am moved to say that if I am faced with chronic illness such as you both have endured I hope that I have the courage to face it with the same humanity as you have. I'm sorry, minderwiz, I just read the above and thought i saw some pain. I know for me that adjusting to the change an illness or disability, especially those which are long-term or permanent, can be 'bumpy'; sometimes OK, other times, struggling. That's all.... just reaching out..... :) skytwig

skytwig	29 May 2003
I've been thinking a lot today about the idea of 'karma'. We with illness and with any type of spiritual awareness, eventually ask the question: Did I cause this? I read somewhere, I think it was Marion Weinstein (Positive Magic), who wrote that everything we need to 'deal' with is in this lifetime. She did not believe in digging into other lifetimes to find causes and 'sins' and 'karma'., per se. And, thinking about that makes sense to me. I tend to believe that the Universe exists and is based on Love, for Love is a dynamic living force. It is self-creative. To me, it explains why this amazing experience called Life even happens (It makes no current scientific sense!) So, looking at one's life from a Loving viewpoint, it is hard to see good people getting nasty illness due to Karma or past lives. I guess i have trouble with self criticism, self judgement. It is so harmful. As a parent, I would hate to see my children 'beat themselves up', so I would assume that angels and Guides and the Universe at large would not like it either. They would rather we celebrate ourselves! I look at these wonderful posts and I see beautiful people who are working diligently to be the best people they can be. I celebrate your courage and your Truth. I am Grateful you were born and that you contribute so much to this troubled planet. I think of those who choose 'evil' living, those who harm others and they are not beleaguered by illness. I would think that if there were 'laws' of Karma-type stuff in existence, murderers might simply disintegrate on-the-spot! Truth is, we don't know exactly WHY we have illness and we may not know, ever! We could look at illness as a result of something we did in 1618, or we could look at illness as an unknown. Do we, after all, HAVE to know why we have it? I know the temptation is to look for the cause so we can resolve it, and we who are so spiritually centered are going to dig into spiritual causes. I go through the same thing, of course, I have read Carolyn Myss and Louise Hay and they offer interesting perspectives. I have tried to apply them to myself..... but you know, I think life is such an incredible Mystery; It is so filled with evidence of Love, that I can't believe that my guides want me thinking I sinned somewhere or failed somehow to cause this illness. This comes from a person who self abused for decades; I was abused and really feared I was an unworthy being. Now, maybe I am a Pollyanna, but you know what, we need some Pollyannas!!! As a Reiki Healer, I see alot about souls and pain and struggle. but I see Love the most. Incredible, celebratory love for each person I Reiki. It is Love that comes from the Universe. It is Love that says, We are so glad you are here!! And when I experience something so exquisite, I just have trouble saying, oh, yes, you have this illness because you cheated on your husband in 827 AD. Doesn't compute for me, not anymore anyway. The challenge, brave ones, is to celebrate ourselves amid 'imperfections'; the challenge is to say, I am Beautiful! Because, you know what, WE ARE! I believe in you! :) skytwig

Minderwiz	30 May 2003
Skytwig, Your offer was appreciated and whilst it was a misreading of the situation, I feel that such kindness is never misplaced - thank you for caring

Moongold	30 May 2003
I don’t know the cause of my illness. The autoimmune system turns on itself for some reason. I’ve always believed that stress has played a significant role in the illness and perhaps I had a physical vulnerability. Probably there are a whole range of other factors that I know nothing about. I think that each of us has to find meaning for herself, and this meaning will evolve with the growth of understanding and knowledge. Dear Skytwig, your experience of abuse left you wounded through absolutely no fault of your own. I do not see karma or fault in this at all. And the later 'addiction' was probably how you dealt with the stress from the overall experience. In the first years after my diagnosis and several serious episodes I believe that I was stripped back to essence and was able to see things very clearly. There is a children’s book by the Australian author, Brian Mellanie called Beginnings and endings with lifetimes in between which describes the transience of life so simply and purely. I accepted this deeply in one way, although fear was always present. The young want to live. I have also judged myself very harshly from time to time for a whole range of reasons. I am beginning to understand that God/Spirit does not want this. It is a waste of precious time. Like Astraea, I lived in a way that was more conducive to illness that to health - 90% tension all the time. There is no blame or judgment attached to this comment. It simply ‘was’ but has to be no longer. I did not know then. If I want to remain well and live with contentment, I look at the things I may need to change, and one of the things for me is certainly that feeling of unworthiness. I can laugh as I tell you that I think it goes back to babyhood, with perhaps a few other themes added over the years. Ah dear…………It's always een there like an underground river bubbling away - probably why I love the story of Persephone and Demeter so much. There has been much happiness and many achievements as well. The question is: What do I do now? I have some good ideas and so do many of you. Yesterday was the 22nd anniversary of diagnosis and I made some commitments to myself then. Each day I discover more about how to live, and each day I hope to walk on the path more vigorously. With chronic illnesses you don't make one decision to manage well for the rest of your life. You make a decision to manage every day well. It's very different. Minderwiz, thank you for your gracious acknowledgement. Tarot has given me a tool for insight and a divine obsession. Astrology is helping me understand the origins of my life, and for that I am truly grateful. I think I drove you to distraction a couple of times but you are ineffably patient. Thank you! And now I can assist you and Isthmus navigate the arcane paths of astrology with our wonderful bestest buddy, beautiful Punkangel. This is an experience which indeed brings happiness.

Minderwiz	30 May 2003
Moongold It was a pleasure and a privelege to help you on your Astrological way - remember that the learning process is two way and I have learned for you, and many of the others who enter the forum and I'm sure I will also learn from PunkAngel too :)

Astraea	30 May 2003
What a lovely thread, what a lovely forum, what lovely people are here. My prayers are with one and all, asking that we be filled with ever more light, more love, and that we will always remember to include ourselves in this widening circle of blessing.

mags@Treadwells	30 May 2003
Hello All here, What a lovely place. I guess many of you here actually know 1st hand about the subject(s) here - lol (well, one laughs because it's nicer than moping) The world - including this little Aec one here, and this little thread) is a strange, wonderful place...I am so glad I decided to keep posting and ignore the less positive comments. Moon - it just happens that my 22nd anniversary of 1st diag is coming up and - do you know - TarotEmbarrassmentHere - I hadn t even realised the significance. It took a while to go through the postings, but BOY was it worth it. If ANY of you pass by London, PLEASE come and see Christina and myself - we have a special C19 couch resERVED for those who really DO need to sit down and tea/other acceptable beverage will be provided. When you have a chronic condition, browsing at the books can wait...! love to All, Maggie from Treadwell's Bookstore Covent garden 020 7240 8906 x

RedWood	30 May 2003
I am just echoing others. I have kept following this thread. Did not have much to say that was profound any more. Just a great thread. I am very glad that everyone who has has participated did. What thoughs, feelings, etc! Cant put it into words

Moongold	30 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by mags@Treadwells Hello All here, What a lovely place. ............................. If ANY of you pass by London, PLEASE come and see Christina and myself - we have a special C19 couch resERVED for those who really DO need to sit down and tea/other acceptable beverage will be provided. When you have a chronic condition, browsing at the books can wait...! And welcome to YOU, Maggie. If I was in London, I would definitely drop in for tea. Do you have cucumber sandwiches, by chance? :) I like a smidgeon of home made mayonnaise and some black pepper on mine. I'll bring some chocolates. I think we would have a long and funny, mad afternoon. From what you've said in your PM you bring a lot to our community. I hope you stay around. 22 years....you're a long timer as well? A long timer in terms of Tarot and other ways of seeing I mean .......as well as the illness experience. Hopefully we can speak again, and the warmest of welcomes to you.

oceanpoetry	31 May 2003
What an inspiring thread! I really appreciate reading how others have adapted to their illness or disability. Five years ago I was diagnosed with lupus, one the eve of my 29th birthday. I was terrified, because I didn't know what the course of the illness would be, it was a very difficult time. For me, I felt very alone, I agree something like that does become a "dark night of the soul" ...but over time my faith in God/Divine Force strengthened. And developed an acute sense of compassion and empathy for others that I wasn't aware of before. So for me, I have found the presense of grace through my illness. Skytwig, I don't really think illness is a result of some negative action in the past. I do believe karma plays a role, but more in the sense of lessons we are to learn, and how best we can learn these lessons. Illness shouldn't be looked upon as punishment for something, but rather a graduate level course :)

Astraea	31 May 2003
Quote: originally posted by oceanpoetry: Illness shouldn't be looked upon as punishment for something, but rather a graduate level course What a beautifully expressed and (it seems to me) accurate statement. Illness can indeed become the vehicle for many blessings. Thank you so much for sharing this lovely thought.

skytwig	31 May 2003
Wow, I love that perception, oceanpoetry (marvelous name, too!). Hawk and Eagle 'medicine' allow me to look at things from a different perspective, as too, getting to the other side of a mirror (Alice, of course!) enables me to see what I wouldn't see before..... sometimes the very opposite of what I thought was reality!!! Thus, yes, the reverse view of illness/disablity as a Graduate Course!!! Goes against the grain of typical thinking, doesn't it? Forces us to look at ourselves in a different view, one that demands self praise and self honor. Wow, I am going to ponder that one for a while. Thanks so much for that observation. Blessings, skytwig :)

mags@Treadwells	31 May 2003
[skytwig, i don't really think illness is a result of some negative action in the past. i do believe karma plays a role, but more in the sense of lessons we are to learn, and how best we can learn these lessons. illness shouldn't be looked upon as punishment for something, but rather a graduate level course :) [/b][/quote] Here, here. Well said, my friend. My thoughts exactly. Been told to edit - I just wanted to express how much I felt at the thoughts of a fellow sufferer, above. Didn t see point of using 100 words instead of 10 when my thought was only a little - but not insignificant -one.

Nevada	31 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by oceanpoetry Skytwig, I don't really think illness is a result of some negative action in the past. I do believe karma plays a role, but more in the sense of lessons we are to learn, and how best we can learn these lessons. Illness shouldn't be looked upon as punishment for something, but rather a graduate level course :) I agree wholeheartedly with the above. Is there some way of getting this message across to someone who does appear to believe an illness can be a kind of punishment? Sorry, I hate to bring up such a negative topic here, but it's something I don't understand, and it seems related to this thread on living with illness. What do you say to someone who has this concept in their mind? Blessings,

oceanpoetry	31 May 2003
I really appreciate the warm replies - and I am glad that it struck a chord. This is what I remind myself when I get discouraged, I realize I have come so much farther and looked more deeply into the meaning of life because of illness. It was how I finally made peace with lupus. Nevada34, it sounds like your family member might be talking more about herself than your mother....maybe she believes her chronic illness comes from not being able to forgive fully. One's relationship with illness is a very personal experience, so maybe this is her way of coping. What matters is how you feel about it, and if you have found the peace and healing yourself.

Belladonna	31 May 2003
I'm sorry I don't have much in the way of an answer for you. All I can say is that intellectually I understand your shock and disagreement on this view (of illness being karmic punishment) a hundred percent. On the other hand, I have a hard time myself trying to deal with recent changes in my appearance related to an injury. It's like a superstitious thought or belief that creeps in when I'm not vigilant, or just if I'm feeling particularly depressed about it that maybe I was too vain, or too insecure, or too something and that I brought this on myself. I hate feeling this way, but I have such a hard time not doing it. I feel like I deserve it (flinch).

Moongold	31 May 2003
Quote: What do you say to someone who thinks this way? What a really sensitive question, and it does touch on the core of what we have been speaking about here: fully loving and embracing oneself. Firstly, you don’t know for sure what your friend thinks about herself and her illness. There are many ways you could find out but in the context of not knowing, you could pray for her and send her lots of light and love. What is the reason for illness? I can only speak from my own experience. I did not consciously believe that the illness was a punishment, but I lived in a way that was not the most peaceful way to live in the world – always anxious and uncertain and in conflict because I was so different in my family. I also had a fundamental sense of unworthiness. These factors possibly made me more vulnerable to illness. The illness in many ways has therefore been a gift in that it has led to much spiritual insight. Oceanpoetry's metaphor is indeed beautiful. Reaching a position like this takes a lot of thought and sometimes time. There is a great deal of empirical evidence now which illustrates the impact that stress can have on illness Since coming to Aeclectic I’ve come to be open to the idea or reincarnation and maybe there are spiritual lessons my Soul need to learn in this life, but that is a whole other matter. There are lessons I need to learn that have nothing to do with illness as well. My thinking is still developing around these ideas. People go through various stages when serious illness occurs: the denial, anger, grief, and acceptance cycle. How one passes through these stages is very individual. Your friend may need your friendship first of all. How do you feel about your own illness? This is really important for you, and your friend may be helped simply by seeing how you manage it all. Do you know what means the most to me? The ordinary love and friendship of others. The knowledge that you’re accepted and loved for who you are is the most wonderful and healing thing.

skytwig	05 Jun 2003
Couple thoughts here: 1) I think some people 'blame' those who are ill or have died because it enables them to detach from grief. My husband died of cancer and my family blamed it on his lack of faith. The reason, i believe, is because they didn't want to hurt. He was too young for death, only 37, so this was their way of dealing with it. Sadly, I had to hide my grief work with my children - I loved Kubler Ross's books & used How It Feels When A Parent Dies by Jill Krementz, but I had to be careful to not let the family see..... (My children are wonderful adults now, we speak of their father often!) 2) How do you (all those who have posted here or read these posts) deal with outside stress? I am currently experiencing a great deal of stress due to a very toxic discrimination situation with my recent ex-employer. I am at the step of turning the forms of complaint into the governmental agency. but, I am soooo overwhelmed. I fear this will be just too much stress. I fear not only physical breakdown, but emotional breakdown. I am a strong person, but I am also fragile in many ways. How do you each determine what is necessary stress and what is stress that needs to be avoided? Am I making myself clear here? How do you know when something is just too much? I want to do the right thing here, but there are so many factors and my health is an important one..... Thanks, I look forward to your helpful words.... :) skytwig

oceanpoetry	06 Jun 2003
Hi Skytwig, I think there are lots of things beyond our control that cause stress. If you're feeling a lot of stress in your life, maybe this would be a good time to do something special for yourself. Maybe take a day or two off from everything and get extra rest and relaxation. I'm not sure if that is what you're asking, but it is my recommendation for anyone (including myself!) who feels extra amounts of stress. I think stress in most forms is fairly toxic.

Moongold	06 Jun 2003
Hi Skytwig, I've noticed that you were not around. I have sent you a private message. Look after yourself and know that we care.

Moongold	06 Jun 2003
Quote: How do you each determine what is necessary stress and what is stress that needs to be avoided? Am I making myself clear here? How do you know when something is just too much? Skytwig and I spoke by PM last night. These are simply my thoughts, and not a comment on her situation. It has taken me a very long time to be able to recognise stress. I think I used to subconsciously seek it because somehow it made me feel that I was alive, it was energising. I am a Sagittarian, a fire person with a lot of Saturn in my chart and the qualities of experience that come from both used to cause me some grief :D. One of the joys of astrology and tarot is the framework of understanding both provide. This new awareness helps. I am much more thoughtful about my life now. The situation which Skytwig describes I have experienced twice. Once I walked away to a new career and that was a very fruitful and good decision. The second time, I decided to stay and tough it out and I don’t think that was a good decision now. I stayed because I was afraid of material loss and because I couldn’t believe it was happening again. I needed to tough it out but it really sapped me of all spiritual strength and blinded me to what is really important.. Some battles are not worth fighting. It is better to walk away. Such a decision is not defeat. It is simply saying that in the wide arena of one’s life there are other things that are more important now. What greater good will be served by fighting? Sometimes there is a greater good. History is replete with such examples but my case simply was not significant enough and would have torn a lot of things to pieces. In some ways I *won* but in others I did not and the cost was very significant - much more in the long term than I could have anticipated. Temperance and Justice, the balance of these images is beautiful.. Sometimes it is hard to work out what’s what when you’re emotionally caught up and weary. Being grounded, prayer and meditation help me today. Self awareness is coming more profound. I have to often sit and consider on what basis I’m operating: the ego or the spirit? Intention is really important. You have no idea how difficult I’ve sometimes made my own life! So to be thoughtful, to meditate, to focus on simple things and to act with good intention. These minimize stress now for me. And to have fun, to walk, share time with friends and listen to music. I became a member of Aeclectic a year ago tomorrow and started my study of tarot then. How much this path has given, and thank you to all who have shared it with me. :)

skytwig	07 Jun 2003
thanks. Oceanpoetry, I am going to my daughters for a couple days, get away from all this energy here at my place. I am selling my antiques in an auction at the end of the month and that has been emotionally trying.... Plus i am getting ready to move, as I can't afford to live here.... So a lot going on. It will be good to be with her healer kitties (they are soooo loving!) Moongold, thankyou so much for reaching out to me. It helps to hear how others deal with it and I am virtually in awe of your path and your courage. I will be calling my lawyer on Monday to get his viewpoint. One thing i am learning is the importance of utilizing the support that is available. I am so used to being independent and doing everything myself.... has to go! In accepting my inability to do as I did, I learn how to reach out and say help. Not easy, of course, but necessary. The perks, I learn, too, are that people really want to help. Having a foundation (childhood) of abuse supports (demands!) an independent lifestyle. It is safer. But here, I learn that help is not necessarily harmful.... nice lesson to learn! Temperance, Moongold, is one of my favorite cards. Yes, learning balance on many levels. Temperance is also known as the artists' card and for me, art is a wonderful way to achieve balance... I am taking my prismacolors and pads with me to my daughters. Wuhoo! And you know, I'm seeing that my back TELLS me when I am unbalanced.... I am learning to listen to it. Hard for a doer like me, but it's that or traction! Thanks! :)

Nevada	07 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold What is the reason for illness? I've tended for years now to think of adverse turns in my life as learning opportunities. Of course it's difficult to think this way in the midst of painful or emotional events or our immediate reactions to them, but every tragedy in my life--and there have been some big ones--has had some side or residual effect that turned out to be strengthening in one way or another. From small to large, troubles seem to go hand in hand with blessings. Even a spat with my spouse, if I open myself to the lesson in it, can bring about a revelation about him or about me that I wouldn't have otherwise had. Don't mean to be the Pollyana here, and the pain and stress definitely has its adverse effects as well. I do think that we can learn to approach our problems in a way that opens us to the growth that is also inherent in them, so that at least the suffering doesn't take as much away from us as it would otherwise. I want to thank you for this thread. It's helped me to sort out a lot in my mind. Blessings!

skytwig	07 Jun 2003
It is interesting to look at trauma and troubles in the light of growth. Where I might have tendencies to berate myself and self criticize, (thinking that i have somehow failed spiritually), if I look at such occurrences as gifts of growth, it sheds a whole different perspective on the 'trouble'. I always hated that phrase that "God will never give you more than you can handle" because it has an edge of unkindness to it. However, if I look at my troubles and traumas as avenues of Spirituality, then I cannot self criticize or self judge. Neither will I judge others who suffer with illness or disability. I look at Mattie Stepanik (who is doing better, by the way; he is home now), he is the 13 year old with a devastating (terminal) form of MD, I see a GORGEOUS spiritual being. He has transmuted something horrid into something exquisitely beautiful. I am a Pollyanna, Nevada, I am so thrilled just to be alive, I can't help celebrating all the time. And that, of course, means living fully - expressing ALL feelings, being fully involved with my life. We are going to explore feelings of self pity and self rejection during times of struggle. That is normal and healthy. We would be inhaman if we didn't. But the Spirituality of the experience is getting to our essence and learning that disability doesn't go that deep. It is discovering that our outward life is just that - our outward life. It is discovering the Mystery that NO ONE fully understands and realizing that being alive, have a heart, having an exquisite mind, living in a Universe that is respendent with varied forms of life, is the very Key itself. Being alive. Not giving too much credence to circumstances, but giving reams of credence to how we are as a spiritual presence. What kind of Spiritual Principles we practice on a daily and consistent basis; how we love; how we serve others; how we serve ourselves; how well we practice unconditional love..... When I focus on that, I am not able to judge myself or others. I am simply rejoicing to even have a life..... :)

Moongold	07 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by skytwig Being alive. Not giving too much credence to circumstances, but giving reams of credence to how we are as a spiritual presence. What kind of Spiritual Principles we practice on a daily and consistent basis; how we love; how we serve others; how we serve ourselves; how well we practice unconditional love..... When I focus on that, I am not able to judge myself or others. I am simply rejoicing to even have a life..... :) Well, Skytwig, what a wonderful indication of spiritual well being if you can feel and write words like this at at time which has been really difficult for you. It is a privilege to see you process the events of the last few weeks in this way.

mags@Treadwells	08 Jun 2003
[so to be thoughtful, to meditate, to focus on simple things and to act with good intention. these minimize stress now for me. and to have fun, to walk, share time with friends and listen to music. i became a member of aeclectic a year ago tomorrow and started my study of tarot then. how much this path has given, and thank you to all who have shared it with me. :) [/b][/quote] Lovely stuff, as usu. Wow - you ve only been looking into tarot a year?! Talk about a quick learner! lol Continued fun&support from it. And us. Just a quickie, chaps: anyone here got any of these condits: R.A., S.L.E., IDDM or Sjogren's? If so, then I'd really appreciate a pm. Thanks a lot xmagsx

skytwig	25 Jun 2003
Pain has been my companion for the last year and is making itself very known these last few days.... I will be moving on Saturday and had a ragged weekend selling and giving stuff away... It was fun, but the back didn't like all the shifting and moving. It's frustrating for someone who has danced all her life. and it was the dancing that led to this! I find that Acceptance helps me to be in this place, not only of pain, but of this monumental occurrence of transition. I know it is for my Highest Good that all this occurs. I know that I DON'T know all the particulars. But, I know I am Cared For by a loving Presence and that reassures me. Acceptance of the Unknown, the apparent Mystery, the Wonder of even having a life to 'worry' about! I anticipate being on the other side of the move.... I long to settle and begin creating my self-employment... writing, art, jewelry.... I am as a baby, in many ways, a baby of my new life.... The 'diasability' has opened a door to Ability that was put aside in my 'old' life. I can no longer devote my energy to others' projects. I am 'forced' to direct all my energies to me! that isn't so bad, is it? Ah, the beauty of Acceptance... delicious stuff. :laugh: skytwig

nighthawk	25 Jun 2003
I too have disabilities, and dealing with my mother who is diieing with one heart beat at a time. She has a bad heart that nothing can be done for it. As for me it starts with diabeties to back failing on me in pain. There are days you just hang your head and cry. I ask why can I heal someone in need , but not myself. Then something happens that makes me feel rich and blessed by the god and goddess. A friend or friends show me that I don't have to go alone at it. Or the simply act of a pet coming to set in my lap. Or being blessed to find a wonderful place as here where so many careing people help with the day. I can't touch you in person but I can touch you in many other ways. One of the biggest things I do for many is to give a simply Hug even if I don't know the person. So here to you from me is a very large HUGGGGGGG and a better day.

mags@Treadwells	25 Jun 2003
Ohh, hey there, nighthawk. Welcome to Aeclectic, esp this, Moongold's, wonderful thread. I think most of us here are either dealing 1st-hand or living alongside sever &/or chronic conditions. I share your sun / IDDM - just so you know there are others out there. (yup, it's a bummer, but ain't life worth coming back to, time&again???) xmags Met HudsonGray yet? Met DE (Dark Electric)? Khatruman? - all fab ppl.

Moongold	25 Jun 2003
How good it is to catch up with everyone again :) Skytwig, you've been in my thoughts. I hope the move goes really well. Watch your back though. :) Let us know when you're settled, or just keep in touch - whatever. Your spirit dances if your body can't. Nighthawk, you're very welcome here. I hope we hear a lot more from you. Tell us about your Tarot? Now that we've met, I'll look out for your name :) G'day again Maggie! I'm always on the look out for you :D I've just got a replacement camera and am going out this weekend to test it. I let the photography drop, and forgot how important it is for me to have something creative like this to do. I relate to your comments, Skytwig, about having beauty in your life and expressing yourself through art, whichever form it takes. You guys are in the midst of summer, whilst this is our winter. It has been a little chilly lately. although the mornings this week have been stunning. When I go downstairs and open the front door the cold makes me gasp but the sharpness also invigorates. I look up to see the pink and gold sky brushing the night from its eyes and smile with sheer happiness. It has been a really good week for me. Let's keep in touch one way or another. Oops.........my 13 year old Maribyrnong toughie ...er....tabby has learnt a new trick. Her resourcefulness never ceases to amaze. She climbs on to the table near my computer desk, launches herself at the back of my chair and then drapes herself around my deck. As she gets older, she demands comfort, is quite insistent about being held. I was reading Tarot last night and left the spread on the table. This morning I awoke to find that Morgaine had completely rearranged part of it. Now, is there a message here? I'll read her work when I come home this evening :) Much love to you all

mags@Treadwells	25 Jun 2003
Joy joy joyy Moon is back is town How you doing? So nice when ppl join this thread - isn t it? You must feel like such a mother-hen! xmags tweet tweet lol - had a lovely BIG dinner tonight, now about to settle into 3 hrs of "Gladiator", v close to screen. yeahhhhhhhhh

Moongold	25 Jun 2003
Ouch Maggie. Not sure I like the mother hen allusion :) Here is a bird that I don't mind. I took this shot of a lyre bird at one of the places where I work last year. The camera is a little far away from it but you should be able to zoom in on the bird and see the brilliant blue of its plumage. Beautiful, eh? Hope it manages to upload this time. Actually, it's too small to be really clear. You might have to download it and use your image program to zoom in. Uploading graphics to this forum is quite difficult from a dial up connection. However, you can see how beautiful the bush is. The lyre bird is dead centre.

skytwig	25 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by nighthawk I ask why can I heal someone in need , but not myself. Then something happens that makes me feel rich and blessed by the god and goddess. A friend or friends show me that I don't have to go alone at it. Or the simply act of a pet coming to set in my lap. Or being blessed to find a wonderful place as here where so many careing people help with the day I was taught by my Reiki Masters that the hardest person for the healer to heal is the healer! How true that has been for me.... but I know that I am better for the Reiki healings I give myself. I Reiki myself daily. the energy is sooo comfortable and comforting and I am sure that the physical pain I have would be much worse if I weren't doing the self-reikiing. I also find that animals are innate healers. i tend to believe that they are ancient souls who choose to come here in this form, a form in which they are able to crawl all over us, all over the ground.... I now have a Chausie tabby and a Turkish Van added to my family. they are my daughters pets and they help me when I Reiki her. the chausie actually lays (sp?) his paws on her with me and the little Turkish Van (white fluff w/yellow eyes, very tiny) chirps to me and guides me as I reiki. It is grand fun. I feel honored. animals loooooove reiki.... and i love being able to have the gift to give them.... :) I send you light for your path, nighthawk, and a welcome! so glad you have joined us! skytwig

Alex	25 Jun 2003
This is a long thread and has taken me the longest time to read it through. I wanted to give my opinion even though I don't feel like I live with an illness at the moment. I've had asthma since I was 3 years old. Comes and goes, the worst outbreak happened during my 20's. At that time, I used to be admitted to the hospital once, twice a month, when my lips were blue and I couldn't feel my fingers anymore, for lack of oxigen. I didn't really get to accept it at any point in my life, and I tried everything I knew, were told, or could possibly imagine to get a relief. I started out with traditional medicine, but all the doctors could tell me was "you will NEVER get cured, you will ALWAYS live with it". Then I tried psychoanalysis, then homeopathy and, finally acupuncture. I also tried to ignore my condition, deny it. I would go swimming when I was in the midst of a bad crisis and, I thank God, my heart was young and strong, otherwise I wouldn't be here writing this. Denial was certainly one of the worst ideas I had. After a few years of struggle, I began to develop an autoimmune form of arthritis: my knees hurt like something, some days I could barely walk. At that point, I was on corticoids full time. Sometimes the solution is simpler than we suppose, however. In my case, I had a good acupuncturist. That guy took me out of a deep, eternal mud of mucus in about three months. When I went see him first time, he told me three things: 1) "your problem has nothing to do with your lungs, it's your liver that does not work well". 2) "dairy food and fruits are causing you allergies and autoimmune problems". 3) "You got to do what I tell you, otherwise I doubt you'll live 10 more years. When you turn 30, your heart isn't gonna do all the work for ya anymore, and if it does, you will start having gland dysfunctions due to so much cortisone" Nothing of the above made any sense to me but number 3, cause I was feeling I didn't have a lot of more years to go like that. So I did EVERYTHING he told me, no matter how stupid it looked. It has been 10 years that I don't break into a crisis. I am still asthmatic, and I'll always be, but I don't have symptoms anymore. I encourage all of you not to give it up on trying alternatives. And try them for a while such as you can feel the effects. Try things out for size. Get yourself informed about your condition and hear the opinion of therapists that do not have a background in western science as well. Listen once, as if it were the whole truth about the problem. And if possible, try once, wholeheartedly. Keep the faith. Alex.

truthsayer	25 Jun 2003
i guess i'll share a little of my story. i had to leave a job four yeras ago this june that paid well and i liked due to DDD of the neck. i started having problems with pain about 5 years before it was so bad i couldn't work. my jaw joint went and i could barely open my mouth to eat so i had to wear braces for 3 years to get my nouth so i could open it again. because of the disk degeneration in my neck, i developed a chronic headache that felt like a knife stabbing me thru the crown of the head 24/7. the headache lasted 9 monthes before medication got it under control. i wasn't able to turn my head which made it quite difficult to drive. on top of those problems, i had gall bladder disease and didn't know it. i kept having terrible attacks of throbbing side pain until one night it became unbearable. i ended up having emergency surgery. it's taken a while to get my health back and even though i'll never be 100% again, it's good enough for me. in the course of that time, my chronic pain has gotten under control with the use of medications, exercise and keeping busy. i'm training in graphic design at present and at last feel that i've found a career something i can manage with my medical conditions. life has become good again. that first year i was out of work was the worst. i hope i never have health problems like these again!!!!!

Logiatrix	26 Jun 2003
Grateful Greetings, It's good to see that everyone has kept this thread going! I've been peeking in now and then, but w/ no time to post much 'till now. What a comfort to come here for an uplifting message! Thank you, all... Quote: Originally posted by mags@Treadwells Just a quickie, chaps: anyone here got any of these condits: R.A., S.L.E., IDDM or Sjogren's? If so, then I'd really appreciate a pm. Thanks a lot xmagsx Mags, good to see you here...I will PM you by the weekend! :)

Moongold	04 Jul 2003
I have not visited this thread for a long time, it seems, being consumed with other matters and I came back tonight to read both Truthsayer’s and Alex’s posts. I learned more about both of you from these posts than I have from a year of reading other posts that you have written. Perhaps the common experience of illness can provide a bridge where nothing else can, Truthsayer, and I thank you for sharing your story. I did not realise that you had been through so much in terms of pain and disability. Although you have hinted at experiences sometimes, I never read any of the detail. Your experience of illness and pain has been far more serious and traumatic than my own. I wonder how it shows in your art and your writing, knowing that it would inevitably have enriched your work? I wish I knew you a little better. Alex, I knew little of your experience of asthma as well, although I remember you speaking about another illness that you have when I was new to Aeclectic. When I was first diagnosed I did explore alternative therapies. Some of them were spiritual in nature and gave me a sense of peace and control over my situation. I learned Yoga and meditation, creative visualization and different approaches to diet. I saw a spiritual healer as well in 1980 and went to the Victorian Spiritualist Union a number of times for readings in the early 1980’s. When I look back on those times I am struck by the natural authority the body/self has in seeking what it needs. The journey to wellness and the accompanying wisdom and naturalness came so truthfully that I’ve since wondered at the depth of our internal wisdom. Astraea spoke so movingly of this. I think wistfully how wonderful it would be if such wisdom was always there. And then I remembered that it is. We just need to hold it in our consciousness. It is essential to our spiritual and physical well-being. I personally must continually hold my spiritual self close to essence so that I can remain forever safe. Being a Fire person, it is easy for me to get drawn into political/personal discourses which can get so bitter they have the power to destroy. It takes a long time to regain balance. A woman I met in the late 1980's died this week. She was a well known author, poet. song writer and political activist. She developed crippling rheumatoid arthritis at the age of 56 and it became progressively worse over the years. We started a casual discussion at a meeting one Sunday morning and she told me that she thought that anger was the root cause of her illness. She never lost that conviction, although I thought it was a harsh one. I still do. We became friends but later had a disagreement (about eight years ago) and never really repaired it although we each made some tentative gestures. A couple of years ago we had a good phone conversation but we never met again, and I've been followed by sadness these last few days. She did a tremendous amount of good in the last part of her life. It was already an extraordinary life. Anger is a luxury I can’t really afford, which goes against conventional wisdom in many places where they say you have to work through it. I'm not sure of the best approach but I do know that anger burns and exhausts. Now I’m really tired and going to sleep at the PC. I just woke up to see a paragraph that made no sense at all. :). Many blessings. These last few moments are a tribute to Glen.

truthsayer	04 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Perhaps the common experience of illness can provide a bridge where nothing else can, Truthsayer, and I thank you for sharing your story. I did not realise that you had been through so much in terms of pain and disability. Although you have hinted at experiences sometimes, I never read any of the detail. Your experience of illness and pain has been far more serious and traumatic than my own. I wonder how it shows in your art and your writing, knowing that it would inevitably have enriched your work? I wish I knew you a little better. moongold, i have been so busy with the arts the past year, i haven't been a major force on the forum like i once was. of course, you are welcome to get to know me better. it's always good to make new friends. sometimes stories about illness comes through in my writing. i have been writing a short story about an artist who has a terminal illness and is trying to work out her family issues before she dies. while my illnesses weren't fatal, i did feel i had a brush with death. the pain was so bad for so many years that i reached a point that i was extremely suicidal. i sought treatment for the depression and got better but it was a long hard road to feeling alive again. by the time, i got surgery for the gall bladder i developed gangrene. fortunately, i survived but as sick as i was i could have died. that kind of feeling really humbles you. the art came first in my recovery. being involved with color and shape helped me get in touch with my emotions. this involvement in painting as an emotional therapy comes thru in my story about the artist. i was burned out on writing for many years until i took a class in creative writing in january. since then, i feel that i get more and more in touch with myself thru the writing. moments long forgotten from times i felt hurt or confused or angry come to the surface. i put them in free verse and try to make the situation come alive again through the 5 senses. that's really healing.

truthsayer	04 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Anger is a luxury I can’t really afford, which goes against conventional wisdom in many places where they say you have to work through it. I'm not sure of the best approach but I do know that anger burns and exhausts. i understand what you mean about anger being an emotional you can't afford. i was talking to a friend last weekend about the lengths anger can take you to. she has enemies she loves seeing something bad happen to. she found it hard to understand why i have chosen to forgive people who've seriously hurt me in some way. i told her because it hurts me worse to hold the anger inside than it does to let it go. just because i choose to forgive doesn't mean i trust that person not to hurt me again. i don't forget what happened for self protection. i try to let go of the pain because repressed anger turns into depression and can become redirected at self instead of channeled elsewhere. that only harms me-not the other person. anger is self-defeating. say your peace and go on with your life. that's my philosophy at least. i consider my problems with pain to be at least partially related to repressed anger. at the time i was sick, i can look back now and see how the affected body parts were trying to give me message like "this really galls me" from the gall bladder or "this is a pain in the neck" from the disks in my neck going bad.

Moongold	04 Jul 2003
Perhaps anger itself is OK and understandable in various circumstances but I can’t hang on to it. Where I’ve gotten myself in trouble in the past I haven’t processed it. As a very young woman I had no understanding of it, and I think it had something to do with my becoming ill, all mixed up with fear and denial. They say that strong emotions can compromise one's stress management functions, one's immune system. It is interesting to see you associate anger with pain. I associate it with paralysis. It literally stops me dead in my tracks and I become incredibly stiff. If I look at illness as metaphor that's an uncanny experience. Anger is not something I feel very often these days but it’s real enough when it happens. Someone here pointed out to me the other day that Christ got angry, Gandhi got angry, Martin Luther King got angry. Those guys got rid of their anger through action. That is the secret I reckon. There are many ways of letting go. Prayer, meditation - Affirmations too. God grant me the opportunity to keep flying. The destructive anger is the one we hold on to. Thanks truthsayer :)

Logiatrix	05 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold A woman I met in the late 1980's died this week. She was a well known author, poet. song writer and political activist. She developed crippling rheumatoid arthritis at the age of 56 and it became progressively worse over the years...She did a tremendous amount of good in the last part of her life. It was already an extraordinary life... Anger is a luxury I can’t really afford, which goes against conventional wisdom in many places where they say you have to work through it. I'm not sure of the best approach but I do know that anger burns and exhausts... Moongold, That is exactly how I became ill 17 years ago: I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis five months after a serious trauma. To this day, I believe that my illness was directly related to anger turned inward from the trauma. I have learned to forgive. I have learned to forgive myself, as well as others. That's huge, you know. I didn't realize how angry I was. For me, anger was insidious and hid under the guise of duty and correctness. I thought I was a forgiving person, just because I SAID the words, "I forgive you". As I confronted my own death, I realized that I had many regrets and grudges. I journeyed to that shadow side and confronted all that baggage. I learned to be genuine and honest. This has taken many years, a lot of hard lessons, and I am soooo grateful! It's not like I'm all fixed or anything, but I am definitely lighter and more peaceful. And since I have learned to genuinely forgive from a soul level, I have gotten increasingly more well. Instead of dying, I'm living--for as long as I am able. I had no idea how healing it is--how vitally important it is--to forgive. Peace, Tauni :)

Moongold	06 Jul 2003
Hi Tauni, About thirty years ago, a doctor said to me quite casually "You must have been very angry". My immediate response was dismissive, and I left the room thinking what an odd person she was. Circumstances later led me to understand and confront the many negative perceptions I had of the world, and her words floated back to me. It was quite difficult identiying the anger and fear and seeing how entrenched these feelings had become in my life over a period of years. And yes, I had to deal with them. By this time I had my particular illness for a few years but it had not been diagnosed as I went into a long remission after the first clutch of episodes. Sometimes I feel there should be courses that we all have to do: Life 101, Anger 102 and Fear 103 etc :D I could not believe that I'd reached a stage of life with so little insight. But about forgiveness, there is a quote I've written down and then forgotten the author, but it's American: The holiest of all the spots on earth is where an ancient hatred has become a present love . I know my friend Glen certainly dealt with her anger and lived the life of a woman large and generous in spirit in the last 18 years of her allotted time. She never got physically better but she was able to explore many ideas and strategies to help her with the physical consequences of her illness. I admire your quiet generosity of spirit as well. There has been a peaceful energy about your posts. Forgiveness :). Also letting go. moving on.

Alex	06 Jul 2003
Moongold, The only other condition I have is Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. A neurological condition that makes us spacey, easily distractable, easily bored, often intolerant, irresponsible, prone to anger outbursts and poor impulse control. I have learned a lot of things because of my asthma and ADHD. I'm sure you have too, because of the condition you have. One of the the things I have learned is to appreciate my health. Every day I thank whomever is up there, I can breath, I can run, I can swimm, scream or simply sleep at night. I am also thankfull that I came accross this professor in school, who told me his wife had died of asthma at age of 33. That was a wake up call, because no one had ever told me one can die of it. Healthy people sometimes don't know how to appreciate their health, take it for granted, abuse their bodies. They ain't got no idea. No idea. Alex. P.S. I would distinguish anger from resent. Anger we may feel when faced with fustrating situations. Towards people or natural disasters or God or whatever. But resent is that thing that keeps coming back, that doesn't let us live our lives because we can't forgive. I think anger is all right when properly vented but should not be given too much attention to. It passes in time. Resent is not all right, that's something we all benefit from working on, resolving, getting pastt us. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Alex, I knew little of your experience of asthma as well, although I remember you speaking about another illness that you have when I was new to Aeclectic. When I was first diagnosed I did explore alternative therapies. Some of them were spiritual in nature and gave me a sense of peace and control over my situation. I learned Yoga and meditation, creative visualization and different approaches to diet. I saw a spiritual healer as well in 1980 and went to the Victorian Spiritualist Union a number of times for readings in the early 1980’s.

skytwig	07 Jul 2003
the honesty here, about anger, is so helpful!1 I have been thinking about anger lately, as I am doing so assessment work on my abuse and releasing some of it... It is time, once again, to dig deep..... I, too, alex, recently saw a difference between anger and resentment. Anger has been soooo difficult for me to express. therapists have been alarmed at my inability, then, i eventually learned why.... Anger, to me, is the defining moment of self protection. I had been harmed so much by my mentally ill parent that i had learned to avoid the No, the anger. It would only result in more harm. But now I see it as precious, for it teaches me what is acceptable and what is stepping over my boundaries. It is, in fact, a fence! I need to honor my anger and listen to it. It is an appropriate defense mechanism. Resentment, however, is another thing altogether. It is anger that seeths. It is anger that has become foul. I would think it arises from not clearly and definitely honoring anger, not listening to the definition of boundaries, not saying no, if we need to. Forgiveness is incredibly liberating, it allows us to leave the harm and its influences. However, if we have allowed an anger to become resentment, we need to dig into it and find the original stepping-off point. We need to find the boundary that we are not protecting, the lack of self-definition that is crying out to be seen. For me, that enables forgiveness. I find, too, if i have allowed resentment to grow, then there comes a place of self forgiveness, too. for resentment means i have abandoned myself along the path of that bitterness..... And, Tauni, your writings about anger are soooo wonderful. Yes, been there, do that.... working on accepting my truth, both the laughter and the anger. It's all about balance isn't it, the Temperance card and the Justice card, which enables us to clearly see what is harm and what isn't, what is acceptable and what is unfair, what is for our Highest Good and what would defeat us. I love this thread; it's the one i look for first when i come here... :) skytwig

Logiatrix	08 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Sometimes I feel there should be courses that we all have to do: Life 101, Anger 102 and Fear 103 etc :D I could not believe that I'd reached a stage of life with so little insight... But about forgiveness, there is a quote I've written down and then forgotten the author, but it's American: The holiest of all the spots on earth is where an ancient hatred has become a present love... Thank you, Moongold, that quote is one I'm keeping now, too. Thank you also for the wonderful metaphor; BTW, I'm in Fear 103 right now! It's comforting to know that I'm not the only one still in school--or getting detention all the time! :D skytwig, good point! I agree with you that resentment has it's own special classification. Certainly, it is vitally important to identify resentments when we are on our paths to healing. Here is a quote I heard a while back that really made me think about my own resentments. After contemplating these words, it didn't seem to matter if my resentments were justified like I thought they were: "Resentment is like taking poison and expecting someone else to die." Wow, huh? ;) You speak most eloquently, all of you here. In Gratitude, Tauni :)

littlegreen	08 Jul 2003
"That is exactly how I became ill 17 years ago: I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis five months after a serious trauma. To this day, I believe that my illness was directly related to anger turned inward from the trauma." IE] _________________________________________________ Wow - I'm sorry . That sounds tough. Do many of you here have rheumatoid arthritis? lg

truthsayer	09 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Tauni "Resentment is like taking poison and expecting someone else to die." Tauni :) that is such an awesome bit of advice. mind if i use that sometime as a quote? how i long to send it to several people i know like oh for example--the mother in law who resents me for being married to her 53 year old baby. she has some serious problems with chronic pain but won't accept any help to make her life easier. do you think it's possible that we hang on to pain because deep down we need that anger for some deep unconscious reason? that somehow pain is like a badge of courage for living with that anger? that we have a need to be poisoned b/c we can't let of the need to punish someone even if it is really ourself who is being punished? like my mother in law is inwardly hoping that i will die. if she holds her to her pain and anger like it might get transferred to me if she holds on to the thought long enough? in psychology this is known as magical thinking. does that make a scrap of sense? ;)

Moongold	09 Jul 2003
Hi Littlegreen and welcome to Aeclectic. I can see you're quite a new member. I don't have rheumatoid arthritis but I'm sure some Aeclectic members other than Tauni probably do. There are many views about the cause of illness and the reality is that there are often many causes and many predisposing factors. Every person is also unique and so is their experience of illness. Some people make connections between stress in its various facets and the onset of illness and others do not. I think there is research that indicates the connection in various instances, all tied up with the immune system. I do make that connection in my own experience. But I am very careful when speaking about this as sometimes the notions of "Blame" or "reponsibility" creep in and that is never appropriate. Have you read through the earlier parts of this thread? Astraea covers this issue very beautifully in her post: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13751&perpage=40&pagenumber=2. My own recovery from episodes of illness has been dependent on medication but also very much enabled by acceptance, positivity and hope. Certainly the days are much better when all those things are present :) Many blessings

Alex	09 Jul 2003
I feel like hanging upside down doctors who tell people that they get severely ill (oftentimes referring to conditions genetically determined) because they don't know how to express anger. A few times I was told same about asthma. This is ridiculous, because I don't have any problem expressing anger. On the other hand, if I allow myself to get too upset about everything, I'm more prone to allergies and shortness of breath than if I try to keep the cool. When my ex-husband was ill with depression, stupid therapists said the same to him: his problem was "anger turned inward". They also encouraged him to "express" and "release" his anger, what got expressed as flying objects here in my home, obviously towards me. He did a great job learning to "identify" and "release" his anger, with the help of therapy, then he got so angry with everyone that he tried to kill himself, an act of revenge against us all who could not possibly make him the center of our universes. I think anger is a biologically necessary emotion that has it's place but that should not be encouraged nor given that much attention to. Anger produces more anger, feeds more anger, it does not get "released" when expressed, at least not as turning a cup releases the water inside. Many of us don't have to learn to manage anger, what we have to learn is to assert ourselves positively. As Skytwig said, learning to draw boundaries is the key. The other day, I had the opportunity to observe my boyfriend punching pillows and saying obscenities because he was not able to tell a client off at work that day. In stead of saying to her "please could you come back in two hours cause I can't draw efficiently when the client is looking over my shoulder", he chose not to say anything, while cussing her in silence. Then he developed a migrane, had to leave work early, and was still all jazzed up about it when I came see him at night. When I asked, why didn't you just tell her off?_ he had no answer. Most of us get sick angry because we don't know the art of assertiveness. Alex.

Moongold	11 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by truthsayer do you think it's possible that we hang on to pain because deep down we need that anger for some deep unconscious reason? that somehow pain is like a badge of courage for living with that anger? that we have a need to be poisoned b/c we can't let of the need to punish someone even if it is really ourself who is being punished? This a really interesting (and challenging) question. Perhaps there should be a course in life called Forgiveness 101? Would you believe I found an Institute for Forgiveness on the net yesterday. :D I think there may be a few reasons for hanging on to pain. Sometimes the pain and the abuse which may have led to it, is deeply scarring and takes time and intensive counselling to heal. Sometimes people are so numb or have lost sight of their identity so badly that pain is the way they have learned to know they are alive. It took me a while to learn a different way of *being* in this world and I am deeply grateful for having been given the opportunity to do that. Slightly peripheral to the topic one of my other US friends gave me an interesting book just yeaterday. I was loking through it overnight and would like to share some of it. The Book is called Limbo by A. Manette Ansay. In the last chapters she says: There was a time in my life when I would have said this kind of uncertainty was unbearable. When I believed I could not live without a prognosis, a reliable map to which I might plan out my future. When I believed that an explanation was nothing less than my due. When I fully expected a closure as final, as satisfying as the end of a Beethoven symphony. I was formed by a place where the roads met at right angles, a landscape in which cause and effect were visible for miles. I was raised to believe that every question had its single, uniform answer, and that answer was God's will. But the human body, like the life it leads, is ultimately a mystery, and to live my life without restraint, to keep moving forward instead of looking back, I have had to let go of that need to understand why what has happened has happened and, indeed, is happening still. In some ways my health has gotten worse in recent years...............These are the times when it is hard not to dwell on the larger issues at hand: what if I don't snap out of it this time? What is going to happen next? Yet in one way or another, this is everybody's question, and one of life's few consistent blessings is that we cannot know the future. At amy moment, all that we claim as our own might be instantly swept away. But perhaps it's this precarious balance that drives us to value what we have, to cling to the world as we do. And isn't it all we do not know that constitutes possibility? I think of the ancient mapmakers charting the flat reaches of the world. Here be dragons they wrote along the edges of the known continents, warning ships away from the uncharted waters beyond. No doubt there could be dragons, and worse, out there in the mist. But one might as easily sketch an island of flowers, rainbows and flying fish, wonders that have yet to be imagined. I'm laughing here :). I've spent a lot of time on introspection and now need balance this a little more with action and being with people. It was timely for me to read Ansay's words. They seem to fit with the idea of illness as mythic journey we discussed at the beginning of the thread.

The Living with illness thread was originally posted on 06 May 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.