A little Riddle

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kazz	13 Jun 2003
Someone e-mailed this to me and I really enjoyed it. I thought I would share this and hope you enjoy it to Can you answer this riddle? See if you can guess the riddle at the end. We tried so hard to make things better for our kids that we made them worse. For my grandchildren, I'd like better. I'd really like for them to know about hand me down clothes and homemade ice cream and leftover meat loaf sandwiches. I really would. I hope you learn humility by being humiliated, and that you learn honesty by being cheated. I hope you learn to make your own bed and mow the lawn and wash the car. And I really hope nobody gives you a brand new car when you are sixteen. It will be good if at least one time you can see puppies born and your old dog put to sleep. I hope you get a black eye fighting for something you believe in. I hope you have to share a bedroom with your younger brother/sister. And it's all right if you have to draw a line down the middle of the room,but when he wants to crawl under the covers with you because he's scared, I hope you let him. When you want to see a movie and your little brother/sister wants to tag along, I hope you'll let him/her. I hope you have to walk uphill to school with your friends and that you live in a town where you can do it safely. On rainy days when you have to catch a ride, I hope you don't ask your driver to drop you two blocks away so you won't be seen riding with someone as uncool as your Mom. If you want a slingshot, I hope your Dad teaches you how to make one instead of buying one. I hope you learn to dig in the dirt and read books. When you learn to use computers, I hope you also learn to add and subtract in your head. I hope you get teased by your friends when you have your first crush on a boy\girl, and when you talk back to your mother that you learn what ivory soap tastes like. May you skin your knee climbing a mountain, burn your hand on a stove and stick your tongue on a frozen flagpole. I don't care if you try a beer once, but I hope you don't like it. And if a friend offers you dope or a joint, I hope you realize he is not your friend. I sure hope you make time to sit on a porch with your Grandma/Grandpa and go fishing with your Uncle. May you feel sorrow at a funeral and joy during the holidays. I hope your mother punishes you when you throw a baseball through your neighbor's window and that she hugs you and kisses you at Hannukah/Christmas time when you give her a plaster mold of your hand. These things I wish for you - tough times and disappointment, hard work and happiness. To me, it's the only way to appreciate life. Written with a pen. Sealed with a kiss. I'm here for you. And if I die before you do, I'll go to heaven and wait for you. We secure our friends, not by accepting favors, but by doing them. So the riddle........ What is greater than God, More evil than the devil, The poor have it, The rich need it, And if you eat it, you'll die?

sirona86	13 Jun 2003
ohoh.. i've heard this one before.. now if i could only remember the answer...

sirona86	13 Jun 2003
i've got it! the answer is nothing!

Kazz	13 Jun 2003
Oh yes I think that is right..."Nothing" although I had never heard this before and it took me a long time to get it...lol The story is so sweet that it has inspired me to write this down and put in my daughters albums and give it to them when they are old enough. I think it says so much about all the simple things in life that we take for granted...:) Cheers Kazz :TQC

Kiama	13 Jun 2003
Thankyou so much for that Kazz... I read it and tears came to my eyes, because I understood it, and I understand why my parents didn't always give me what I wanted or spoil me rotton. And I can proudly say that I looked through the poem, and said 'yes' to everything. I had cool parents. :D I must say though, it does seem that society has begun to 'forget' how to do things the 'old fashioned way'... I hardly know anybody who can home-make icecream... My Mum works in a junior school, and she actually teaches children who come from a home with no books in it. I hear parents of younger children forbidding them to go outside and get dirty. They won't let them dig in the dirt or catch grasshoppers and ladybirds... And heaven forbid if they make a den outside and leap over streams and play in the mud! My parents have never been well-off, so I guess I had to make my entertainment from things other than the TV and computer games, and I still haven't got a car... But because of this, I can sew and mend my cloths, I know how to cook from scratch and can make a mean veggie casserole on the tightest budget imaginable. It is true then, that even if our parents are not rich, and even if they don't/can't buy us a brand new car/mobile phone/newest games console, we can still grow up okay and learn to live good lives. Once again Kazz, thankyou. Kiama

cjtarot	13 Jun 2003
Hi, I was a bit spoiled..I had parents who loved me and taut me to appreciate life. As far as home made icecream. One thing I always did as a kid (and still do) is to have a family picknick where allll the family (even the cousins you see once a year show up) and friends get together for the day. And now that I'm older Home Made Icecream is part of it. We do Kick The Can Icecream. It has to be timed, so you pair up a little one or two and an older cousin (preferable one the little one doesnt know well) to time the kicking(rolling), and away you go. You end up with about a 1/3 cup of ice cream each, but it's worth it. http://www.kidsdomain.com/craft/kickcan.html NOW...THE KEY...BUY THE ROCK SALT IN THE WINTER..I went nuts trying to find it in August..lol The little things make a BIG difference. THank you so much for sharing Kazz. Blessings, CJ

Diana	13 Jun 2003
"I hope you learn humility by being humiliated, and that you learn honesty by being cheated." This is absolutely horrid. I would never wish this on any child. One doesn't learn humility and honesty this way. When one is humiliated, one feels shame, not humility. When one feels cheated, one doesn't learn honesty, one feels betrayed. To me the whole thing smacks of "forging one's character". Suffer in order to become good and strong. Very Protestant and Calvinistic. And what's wrong with drinking a beer, or smoking a little joint when you're young? That's part of growing up. And never would I wish for anyone to burn their hand on the stove!!! The person who wrote it must never have suffered the agonies. (I have burnt my hand on a stove. It is hell..... and it certainly didn't forge my character - just made my life a misery for about a week.) Sorry Kazz to be a spoil-sport here, but I really didn't enjoy this at all. If I had had a mother like this, I would probably have run away from home.............. (Edited to add: OMG. I didn't see this one: "I hope you get teased by your friends when you have your first crush on a boy\girl, and when you talk back to your mother that you learn what ivory soap tastes like." I am flabbergasted......... I think it's the mother who needs ivory soap in her mouth. Teasing someone because they are in love is right????)

Kiama	13 Jun 2003
Diana, you raise some interesting points. This coudl turn into a very interesting and worthwhile discussion. Through being teased by our friends, we learn how to ignore it. By burning our hands on the stove, we learn that the stove is hot and not to touch it again! (Well, we usually learn this very very early on in life, according to psychologists.) When one is humiliated, it is usually cuz one's got too big for one's own boots (I've been tehre myself!) so one learns how to quit being egotistical. When one is cheated, one can see first hand the effects on others of cheating, and so one maybe is less likely to cheat others. We cannot molly-coddle children (And I'm not saying you molly-coddle your son Diana) and keep them away from all the dangers of life, so all we can do is try and encourage them to learn from all experiences... So, naturally, when the child experiences something less-than-pleasant, they will learn a valuable lesson from it. A real life example which I have experience is that without being dirt-poor, I would never learn how to budget, how to cook cheap yet healthy meals, and how to save up money for the things I want. Without experiencing the death of a loved one, I doubt I would truly know how to cope with grief. Without being bullied severely for 10 years of my life, I would not know how to stand up for myself and remain happy in spite of what other people say about me. And who can discount the value of learning how to cook for yourself, how to mend old clothes, how to wash the car yourself and mow the lawn yourself? The ivory soap thing I think is referring to the old adage that you should 'wash your mouth out with soap' if you say something 'dirty' or bad... It's basically a metaphor for keeping your mouth clean. I know that in my house, whilst soap was never actually used really, the bitter taste was left when my Mother would tell me off for speaking to her in such a way. I knew then, to respect her wisdom, and to listen to what she had to say, even though the telling-off was not a pleasant experience. The drugs and drink bit... It's all down to personal opinion. I know Kazz doesn't like alcohol or drugs, and I'm guessig the writer of the poem doesn't either. Personally, I tried doing the whole student-drinking thing, but gave up because it turned out to be bad for my health and bank balance. Same with cannabis. Too expensive, doesn't agree with my health, and I'd rather buy Tarot decks with the money! ;) So, I guess we need to be asking here... Is 'tough love', and letting your children feel pain a good thing, or does it make you a bad parent? I'd say pain is inevitable, and all we can do as parents (I'm not a parent yet, but I will be one day I hope!) is impress on children that they can only learn from the pain. Which I guess is something the poem touches on. Blessings, Kiama

Diana	13 Jun 2003
Kiama: Letting children live their life's bitter experiences, and purposely wanting them to have bitter experiences, is not the same thing. Sufferings every human being goes through in life. But why on earth would one want to WISH suffering onto someone? Rich people can also learn to cook on budget meals, the day they're poor. Because they don't have the choice......... I can assure you of that. You don't have to grow up poor to do that. I was never bullied. I know how to stand up for myself all the same. Possibly even better than those who have been bullied, because my self-esteem was never badly damaged, so I don't get hurt when people say bad things about me. And lots of people have never burned their hands on the stove. Doesn't mean they don't know that it'll burn them if they don't. I don't recall either ever being cheated by anyone. Has this turned me into a person who cheats? No, it's made me more trustful of people, and non-suspicious. And I recall once at school when I was humiliated - it had nothing to do with my having a big head - it was pure and cold injustice. I recall it still today, and I have never been able to forgive the person for the cruelty of it. It didn't leave me humble, it left me angry..... "I hope you have a car accident one day, sweetheart, so that you learn that is to better to drive safely." "Please go out in the freezing cold and come back with frostbite. That way you will learn the limits of your body." No way.

Kiama	13 Jun 2003
There are of course exceptions to the rule, as in all things, so of course, as you say, there will be some people who react differently to the suffering, and many will learn the lesson even if they don't go through the unpleasant experience. However, the poem Kazz posted was about how too many parents fall into the trap of spoiling their children rotton, buying them cars and mobile phones, and pandering to their every whim... And how this affects the child. I have friends who are 19 years old, and still do not know how to look after themselves properly, and still get money/things off their parents, and still don't wash their clothes, and expect all around them to look after them/feed them/give them money. Their parents spoilt them rotton, so they don't know any of the basic life skills such as supporting yourself independently. This is what the poem was talking about, and if we see it as anything else, I think we are missing the purpose of it. Also, you will notice that none of what the author of the poem 'wishes' are as dangerous and life-threatening as having a car accident or getting frost bite. Many of them are simply experiences which are intensely valuable, such as digging in the dirt and reading books, sharing a room with your siblings, and making things yourself instead of buying them all the time. Who can deny the value of homemade icecream?! ;) (Yummy...!) Many of the things the poems talk about (Such as getting your tongue stuck to a frozen flagpole and burning your hand) happen to us all at least once in life. The poem is essentially trying to say, 'Hey, parents, don't try and protect kids from this, because otherwise they'll grow up to be spoilt brats who end up like Kiama's friends'... ;) Kiama

Logiatrix	13 Jun 2003
I think the comparisons of this work are intended as literary contrasts to convey a reflective stream of conciousness. This prosaic form is ultimately expressing a sense of legacy. I'm sure Kiama is familliar with the compare-and-contrast essay; at least, that's what I remember it was called back in school... At any rate, this is a very moving piece when taken as a whole body of thought, rather than a list of specific requests for harm, pain, and strife. An infinite number of writings, when quoted out of context, are easily misconstrued this way. IMO, it is important to regard the message as well as the words. I think this is a very nice sentiment. It's the classic archetypal representation of the elder passing wisdom on to the child. :) Besides, when I got this in e-mail, I did not take the time to send it to "ten of my closest friends," so I did not get the answer to the riddle--now I have closure! :D

Maan	14 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Through being teased by our friends, we learn how to ignore it. By burning our hands on the stove, we learn that the stove is hot and not to touch it again! (Well, we usually learn this very very early on in life, according to psychologists.) I'm with Diane in this discussion You don't have to learn things first hand and as in your example..would you really let ytour little child walk to a burning stove and burn itself so she/he will learn?I would have pulled my child away form it... I think if you raise children in this manner you get very hard and very unhappy children...never felt protected...and i'm sure you learned that in psychology class like i did that protection and feeling save is one of the basic tings a child need in growing up...( i graduated on attatchment disorder ;) ) Anyway the point that i'm trying to make that this all denies that we can learn form the mistakes of others....and i certainly hope that this is not the question... Love Maan

fairyhedgehog	15 Jun 2003
Like Diana, I felt troubled reading this poem. There are many ways to learn, and through suffering is only one of them. I would not wish suffering on my children. My sons are 'spoilt' - we are well-off, and they have luxuries I couldn't dream of. They also 'talk back' to me, as in questioning my judgement, or reminding me of promises I've made to them when I've forgotten. And their language at home is ... let's call it 'earthy' ;) Unfortunately (!) I've taught them to think for themselves, so they don't always agree with what I say. But they are kind and caring people, polite outside of the house, respect me even when they disagree with me ... I shared a room with my sister till I left home at 18. It was dreadful - no privacy at all. My sons don't share a room - and get on much better with each other as they each have a retreat when they need it. I prefer the poem that goes: CHILDREN LEARN WHAT THEY LIVE If a child lives with criticism,He learns to condemn. If a child lives with hostility,He learns to fight. If a child lives with ridicule,He learns to be shy. If a child lives with shame,He learns to feel guilty. If a child lives with tolerance,He learns to be patient. If a child lives with encouragement,He learns confidence. If a child lives with praise,He learns to appreciate. If a child lives with fairness,He learns justice. If a child lives with security,He learns to have faith. If a child lives with approval,He learns to like himself. If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,He learns to find love in the world. Author Dorothy Law Nolte

wavebreaker	15 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog CHILDREN LEARN WHAT THEY LIVE ... Post edited to delete my personal experiences, to prevent them for starting a life of their own... My point was simply to state that I prefer fairyhedgehog's poem to the original one.

Demonesse	15 Jun 2003
And what's wrong with drinking a beer, or smoking a little joint when you're young? That's part of growing up. - Diana There is a lot I don't agree with in Kazz's poem (like being bullied and cheated), but I certainly did agree with the part on beer and dope. In my opinion (stress on the word opinion), I think smoking joints (or even cigarettes) is a stupid habit, something I would go all out to discourage in my child. I have seen so many friends "dabble" in this and designer drugs over the years because it was "accepted as part of growing up" and "it's okay if we just try it once." Everybody else was doing it, so why not? I call this having nothing better to do with your parents' money. A waste of your life and of the pain your mother went through giving birth to you, the jobs your parents had to toil at to raise you and put you through a decent education. Drinking a couple of beers is fine by me. But the problem is, many kids do not know when to stop. I had chances to smoke dope and get drunk, but I never did (though I drink the occasional glass) because I did not see it as part of growing up. And it isn't. Exposure to it is, but to participate in it is a choice you make. I've seen girls pass out on the floor and guys get into drunken fights. Many of my acquaintances indulge heavily in drink because it's something they picked up during their teens after having a few tries. And I don't think it's a constructive way to live your life - it's fun, but getting drunk to the point where you can't even walk straight on a regular basis because it's fun simply does not get you anywhere. To each his own, but if I had a child - no way.

wavebreaker	15 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Demonesse To each his own, but if I had a child - no way. The point is to teach your child how to deal with it. If you forbid it outright, you will only make it more interesting for them; that's how things work for teenagers... ;) I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing your children to try it out in a controlled way. I'd rather offer my children alcohol or a joint myself to try, then have them try it out with friends; because they are going to try it out anyway. If you don't act paranoid about it, children will treat it as something normal and handle it in a responsible way.

firemaiden	15 Jun 2003
My observation re: alchohol is, the children who were raised with drinking in moderation as part of life, like wine with dinner, and who were allowed to partake at an early age, have no need to go out and binge at 21. I have never stuck my tongue to a frozen flagpole, thank you. What on earth would prompt someone to do that??????? The privations of the past are different than the privations for today's children. In my childhood there were hand me down clothes (not exactly a privation), we also had beautiful home sewn clothes, apricot, pear, and fig trees in the back yard to pick, bread rising on the counter, and Mom in the kitchen to go with the bread. Today's children may have easy access to material comforts, but they may not see their parents during the day, they may not feel safe playing outside, who knows what else...

Diana	15 Jun 2003
Goodness, I'm not advocating heavy drinking, alcoholism, heroin injection or drug-addiction here! - LOL - . Just talking from first-hand experience when I talk of a little beer and a little joint! (A lot of Aeclecticians are addicts by the way. The tarotholic-thingy is always laughed about as if it were not a real addiction, but I have often got quite surprised at how far some people are really and truly addicted...... a new deck comes out and they fall for it like an alchoholic for his gin.) "I hope you learn humility by being humiliated, and that you learn honesty by being cheated." I still think this is an absolutely outrageous statement. The person is not saying "If ever by some misfortune you are humiliated, try and learn a lesson from it. If you are by some misfortune cheated, I hope you will find a way to grow from this". The person is saying "I hope you will be humiliated and cheated." Why doesn't she continue and say "I hope you will be betrayed by your friends, gossipped about behind your back, lied to by those you trust, and at least once in your life, I hope you get racketed at school and that you learn what fear is when the racketers warn you that if you tell anyone about it, that they will kill you."

Macavity	15 Jun 2003
I think there are just TWO ways of interpreting this sort of thing. Either the author is genuine or not. I think e.g. sometimes "humility" is taught by very unhumble people who humiliate others. On the other hand there are many quite genuine, humble people, who lead by example etc. etc. ;) But it's often difficult to judge! When folk start on about such things as "temperance advocay", I do start to wonder... when will they get to the punchline! }) But again, who knows? Macavity

firemaiden	15 Jun 2003
Yes, Macavity, as always, has a very important point. We learn by example. Dad can tell me 'till he's blue in the face not to pinch salad from the salad bowl with my fingers, he does it too ... We do not just learn from the example of how we are treated, but also from observing how our parents treat eachother, and how they treat others. If Dad humiliates Mom -- my mother = myself, I learn shame and low self esteem. Or contrariwise, I might learn to be cruel and taunting to others.

Demonesse	15 Jun 2003
The point is to teach your child how to deal with it. If you forbid it outright, you will only make it more interesting for them; that's how things work for teenagers... I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing your children to try it out in a controlled way. I'd rather offer my children alcohol or a joint myself to try, then have them try it out with friends; because they are going to try it out anyway. ---tarotlady Ah, but I don't agree. I don't mean binging at 21, I've seen 14-year olds drunkenly throwing themselves round the dance floor and getting thrown out by bouncers. My friends have been raised with alcohol as natural, and imho, that's one of the reasons PRECISELY why they drink. Naturally, if I did have a child I would raise mine to know about it, and how to deal with it. It's not that I don't remember what it's like to be a teenager. Maybe the alcohol, once they are in their late teens, but never a cancer stick or joint - to me, offering it means it's okay to do it. And sometimes it graduates to worse substances. And that's my opinion. :) But I agree with Diana on: "I hope you learn humility by being humiliated, and that you learn honesty by being cheated."I think the writer meant well, but that is more likely to leave scars on a child that will have him/her a little bitter for the rest of the child's lifetime.

wavebreaker	15 Jun 2003
We are talking about children here. They are too young to make that choice. They need to feel safe and be given confidence, that way they will be strong enough later in life to make that decision to learn from difficult situations and not wilt. If you do it right, they will not be big-headed or arrogant. Quote: But, unlike Tarotlady, my parents did not take the stance of 'your problems are nothing'. Nor did they take the stance of 'you must suffer'. Nor did my parents and I never said that. Even though I don't agree with the way they raised me, I know they meant well, that they loved me (and still do) and that they most certainly never wanted us to suffer. Please do not make any assumptions or judgements about my situation based on one or two examples I gave.

Maan	15 Jun 2003
Well my parents let me try out joints and alcohol and this worked out great. I think the netherlands is a very good example that allowing is a good way to handle it. A proffesor i know who's specialized in the "sciene' of raizing children has a nice way of putting things. He says that "raizing behavior" or pedagogical behavior of parents seldom matters or influences a child. Its the exmaple that the parents show the children that really chapes there caracter and behaviour. A parent can forbid a child to drink alcohol but if that parent graps the bottle every time he or she is in trouble than thats what the child will learn. love Maan

firemaiden	15 Jun 2003
In light of Demonesse's post, I am now thinking the problem of alchohol and binging has actually very little to do with permission, but rather to do with a lack of sense of purpose, and of self. Those who throw themselves drunk at fourteen binge-ingly on the dance floor are missing something, I think, better to do, perhaps even missing a sense of hope in the future. Permissivity or strictness cannot alter the underlying reasons children throw their lives away on drink, if they do. Obviously in the late seventies, there were people who drank and did drugs in my highschool (Berkeley). I didn't partake, and I barely even knew it existed, nor did most of the large crowd of happy smart-asses I was a member of. It didn't interest us in the slightest, we had much, much more interesting things to do (like haranguing the grass at lunch time in da-da like nonsense improvs, and climbing in and out of classroom windows...) I was going to write, that it had nothing to do with guidelines from our parents, but that is not true. We knew how they felt about drugs, alchohol and smoking, and respected their wishes. But why? Why did we respect our parents wishes, while others didn't? I think it has to do with the fact that we, (we= me and "The Group") for the most part had good relationships with our parents, we were the lucky ones. Strict parenting may not be as effective in keeping children in line as compassionate parenting. When there is a relationship of good communication, and understanding, there is no problem of "disobedience" -- there are no laws to disobey, only wishes to respect. Why on earth would I want to do something that would displease my parents???? Instead of a relationship of an "us" against "them", parents and children can be a team. Yes, I was one of the lucky ones. It was an idealistic time, and the parents of my generation read "Summerhill" and other utopian ideas on child rearing and education. I would be very interested to hear from jmd and others who have studied Steiner, how the Steiner philosophy handles discipline and behaviour...

Kazz	15 Jun 2003
Well this thread got more than I bargained for ...and then some!! The Author was a man who is a grandfather and (from what I can gather from the e-mail) it was in regards to his grandchildren. I have to agree with Kiama as to the way that I viewed the poem, but in saying that, there were a few things as Diana and Tarotlady pointed out, that I too found 'strange'!! I think some parts remeind me of the old saying. "you've got to be cruel to be kind" I do believe though, if you have never been teased, have your feelings hurt, etc, then how on earth would you ever know how hurtful it can be???...compassion, kindness and understanding are feelings IMHO, that have to come from ''knowing" what it's like. As a mother, I would like my girls know that when they tease or hurt someones feelings(as you children do), that to think about what it would be like if it were them who were being teased, and how they would be feeling. As for the hand on the stove thing...well both my daughters were told over and over how HOT the oven door is when it is on, but they both had to touch it anyway.....but they have never been near it since as they 'know' what I meant when I said 'No it's Hot, don't touch 'burnies" Cheers Kazz :TQC

Diana	16 Jun 2003
Oh well, if it's a Grandfather who wrote it, then that's okay! I love old gentlemen! :)

Emily	17 Jun 2003
Having read Kazz's post about the poem being written by a Grandfather, I read it again and it does have the feel of being written by someone with old fashioned values. The 'Cruel to be kind' element is very evident, tongue to flagpole, hand on hot oven, etc - do it once you won't do it again lol I didn't agree with alot of it, I have had my mouth washed out with soap, the humilitation stops with me till this day and I was allowed to put my hands in an open fire, albiet by accident. None of these things would I ever wish on my son. But I do hope that no one buys him a car on his 16 birthday :)

The A little Riddle thread was originally posted on 13 Jun 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.