Christian

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

coldsuns	01 Jun 2003
I found many weird and strange things in the Bible. There are things that indirectly forcing us to join Christian. I know is our choice to join. But..i dont think God will do passages in the Bibile to force us? To me, it isnt the God's fault. But men's. Coz men created the word, Christian. Some say God passes the message to men by dream. What if a person 'fake' himself as a prophet? He lied that a God passes him a message and he put a passage in the bible created by himself. But my Christian friends tell me that the person that changes the bible will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. What if the person willing to do so to be famous? I wonder why people believe in bible so much. Im not trying to 'destroy' Christian. But i hope to understand Christian and the bible better. There are many loop holes and doubts in the bible for me to believe. I asked my Christian friends that being a Christian for many years questions about the bible. They dont seem to understand the bible well. Yet they believe in it. I hope someone will answer these questions- My first question is Why Christians are against Witchcrafts? And second is In Old Testiments, Verse 4- Cain and Abel. God created Adam and Eve, right? They have 2 children, Cain and Abel. Now the world has 4 human beings. Cain killed Abel, and now left 3. Who did Cain marry to? Yes, a woman. But who? Im rather..confuse about Christian even im one now. But i always belive in God.

HOLMES	01 Jun 2003
I found many weird and strange things in the Bible. There are things that indirectly forcing us to join Christian. I know is our choice to join...i dont think ButGod will do passages in the Bibile to force us? To me, it isnt the God's fault. But men's. Coz men created the word, Christian. Some say God passes the message to men by dream. What if a person 'fake' himself as a prophet? He lied that a God passes him a message and he put a passage in the bible created by himself. But my Christian friends tell me that the person that changes the bible will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. What if the person willing to do so to be famous? might want to look at the heirophant and chariot thread in the jungian tarot study group , it really help me to understand some stuff. colds suns , people have been changing the bible for a long time 1. to fit the needs of the church 2. by translation of the origional bible. 3. by wording among publishers of the bible. if you compare three differnt bibles differnt maker you will see differnt worded passages. 4. people have been faking themselves as prophets "like david koresh," i may be off on the name but the person who thought he was jesus recairnated 5. the one wording of your first passage i dont' understand. " ButGod will do passages in the Bibile to force us?" i don't know which exact passages you are refering to , some people have their own paths and christianity is not one of them. some need the bible and believe it to be the literal word, other, the symbolic world. and other morals and teachings for us to live by. all you can do is understand the bible on a personal level, it may help you to follow hieorphants but after a certain time it is time to let go and follow your own personal jesus. if the bible get translated into your language, (which i am sure it did?)further mistranslations may of pop up as well. as for the loops holes and doubts ,that will have to come through conversations with your pastor(hierophant as they exist to clairify sacred writings for us so we can see deeper truths in the writing ). but also as a christian ask jesus to show you the teachings on a new level. and it will become so over time as you study it. this has been discussed many times , and you could do a search engined and find many thread on this. but they feel , those that critize tarot for example that the truth can only be found in jesus himself or the holy book. and that the tarot is wrong. (i can't speak for witchcraft as i am not into witch craft) i would disagree having found much spiritual teachings in the tarot to help me understand my soul, my place in the universe, and yes my higher power as well. i can't answer you second question as i never studied it. remember cold suns that god is seen everywhere, in and outside yourself. and is the highest power of everyone in the universe. and it is how we define it as an individual that is our right to believe and worship if some feel so inclined to do so. it is your right to believe in god or not and let no one take that away from you. there are many books for and against, and many books that examine differnt paths. take what is true for you.

Kiama	01 Jun 2003
Quote: There are things that indirectly forcing us to join Christian. I know is our choice to join. But..i dont think God will do passages in the Bibile to force us? The Christian religion believes that the only right religion is Christianity. This goes some way to explaining why there are passages in the bible which say that 'you must be Christian'. Also remember that it is still debated as to who wrote the Bible: Personally, I think men did, not God, so of course there will be passages in there saying 'You must become Christian': It's what the men who wrote it believed. Quote: Some say God passes the message to men by dream. What if a person 'fake' himself as a prophet? He lied that a God passes him a message and he put a passage in the bible created by himself. This is certainly a possibility, and in the past, there was a council held to decide which books of the Bible were created by genuine 'prophets' and which were not. As such, around 1500 years ago (When the council was held) dozens of books were thrown out of the Bible, because they didn't agree with what the people on the council thought at the time. These books were attributed to false prophets, and you can find them in the Apocrypha. There could definitely be some 'fake prophets', but I guess all we can do about that is to read what they wrote, and decide for ourselves if what they wrote was still useful. Quote: But my Christian friends tell me that the person that changes the bible will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. What if the person willing to do so to be famous? There is a passage in the Bible which says that anybody who alters anything in the Bible will be damned for eternity. But then, it is only said in the Bible... So how do we know it's true? If peopel say, well, because the Bible is true, we can then ask 'How do you know the BIble is true?' and the only proof possible is 'Because... the Bible says so', which is a circular argument: You cant use the Bible as proof of the Bible's truth! Also remember that in order for the Bible to be translated into the language you read it in, it had to be altered... So, really, your friends need to learn Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew, (Which is the original language of the Bible) because otherwise those that translated it into English/German/CHinese/any other modern language are going to Hell. I seriously doubt your Christian friends would say that the person who translated the Bible into their own language is going to hell, woudl they? Quote: I wonder why people believe in bible so much Not everybody believes in the Bible, but it is true that Christianity is one of the largest and most dominant religions of our time. It's holy book is the Bible, so thre are bound to be lots of people believing it. However, just because many people believe it, it doesn't mean it is true, right, or that any other way is wrong. Quote: My first question is Why Christians are against Witchcrafts Mostly because in the Bible there are laws against using magick or going to seers, etc. There is that famous passage: 'Suffer not a witch to live'. Christianity also believes that any way other than Christianity is wrong/satanic (Not all Christians believe this, but Christianity in general does.) Quote: And second is In Old Testiments, Verse 4- Cain and Abel. God created Adam and Eve, right? They have 2 children, Cain and Abel. Now the world has 4 human beings. Cain killed Abel, and now left 3. Who did Cain marry to? Yes, a woman. But who? This is one of those eternal mysteries that nobody will ever be able to answer... Nobody knows who Cain married. Apparantly it was some woman from a tribe somewhere else, but that does go against what the Bible says... So, there isn't really an answer to your question except that 'Its a mystery'. Quote: Im rather..confuse about Christian even im one now. But i always belive in God. My best advice to you is to follow your heart. You are right to question things, because questioning is the first step to understanding. I wish you the best of luck. Kiama PS- I am not anti-Christian, and have genuine respect for the religion. I just answered Coldsuns' questions. My own beliefs about Christianity may be different, and were not touched upon in the questions. PPS- Looks liek Holmes and I were posting at the same time!

coldsuns	01 Jun 2003
Thanks Kiama. But i dont think..the woman that marry Cain is from another tribe. What i though is that..she's an animal? And in the bible. There are so many..father of this and father of that. But..where did the mother come from? It seems that the mother will appear on it own. And i just remember that..the rib of the father is the mother. So..is the woman that Cain marry is his own rib?

Mimers	01 Jun 2003
Coldsons, I am really concerned for you. I see how confused you are. I was a born again christian for many years and there was a very important lesson I learned. No man is infalable. Including your Christian friends and leaders. You must follow your heart and what it tells you is right. Many things in the Bible are a mystery. Don't go crazy trying to figure them out. God gave us choice and I don't think He did so in order to set us up to be sinners. If He didn't want sin in the world this perfect God of the Christian faith would not have given us the ability to sin. Your friends seem to be using fear to persuade you that you are wrong and should not use Tarot. That is seriously messed up Coldsons! Relax, don't try to figure everything in the Bible out because you never will. Follow your heart and you wont go wrong. Pray to God he will show you the answers you need and He will. I believe that God is a good and loving God. I don't believe in Hell at all. I don't believe that fear is the right path to God either. Take Care, Mimers

coldsuns	01 Jun 2003
I feel..very bad if i dont find out about the mystery in bible. Because the mystery makes me dont understand it well. And some why Christians accept Bible even they dont know the mystery? I take it very seriously..coz i must understand before i accept it as God's words..

Mimers	01 Jun 2003
Coldsuns, Please don't feel bad. You see, many people accept things that are not clear because they realize that God is a mystery. Every religion is based in some part on blind faith. That is why you must follow your heart. I don't think one could ever truely know the truth until we meet Him face to face. Here is my story Coldsuns. I became a Christian when I was 15 years old. I belonged to a Babtist Church full of beautiful, loving people. They loved God, they loved Jesus and they tried every day to live their lives as Jesus would. With no religious backround during my childhood, I was very driven to find God. At this point in my life, that Church was what was right for me. I look back and can truely say that most of the people I knew from that time truely loved God. It was my Pastor from this church that told me to always follow my heart, that the Holy Spirit would give me the answers I needed, as I needed them. He knew that the Bible was a mystery. What Pastor Bob said was important was to ask God for guidance and to follow our guide, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is your heart Coldsuns! It is when you follow your heart. God is in all of us and loves all of us sin and all. We are here to learn and grow. When I went to college, I attended a different church and this is where I became challenged and had to really follow my heart. The people in the church up there were fundamentalist. They tried to put fear in your heart in order to keep you in the Church. I did not like this! I was told that if I did not speak in tongues, that the Holy Spirit was not with me. I was told that anyone who did not believe in Jesus would go to hell. My real father died when I was young and he was not a Christian. This meant that he went to hell. I don't think so, and if you had known my Father you wouldn't think so either. I told my Pastor at this church at college, that the God I knew and loved would not send good souls to hell. I also told him that the Holy Spirit already lived in my heart and I didn't need to 'speak in tongues' to prove it. I was told never to come back to that church again. Now, is that what God would have wanted? That pastor kicked me out of his church because I challenged him and it scared him! I had talked to my first Pastor about these things in the past and he would smile and tell me to pray and follow my heart. He told me God would give me the answers as I needed them. He told me that if I believed in God, He would not let me down. Pastor Bob never kicked me out of Church because I asked these questions! He continued to love and guide me just as a father would his children. Unfortunetely, there are very few like Pastor Bob in the Christian Churches. Follow Pastor Bob's advise Coldsuns, follow your heart and ask God for wisdom. Don't put your life in the hands of people who try to controll you with fear. God in the Christian faith is supposed to be a father. A father loves his children faults and all. A father lovingly and patiently raises his children to follow the right path. A good father leads by the example of his life, not by fear. I hope this helps you and I hope you come to peace with this soon. Mimers

amyel	01 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by coldsuns I feel..very bad if i dont find out about the mystery in bible. Because the mystery makes me dont understand it well. And some why Christians accept Bible even they dont know the mystery? I take it very seriously..coz i must understand before i accept it as God's words.. Coldsuns, Mimers has spoken rather eloquently about her experiences as a Christian. I'm not a Chrsitian, so perhaps my words will mean nothing to you. But I'll say them anyway. Hopefully, it will be coherent, because there are alot of thoughts swirling around my head as I type this. Dear Coldsuns, you are 14 years old. You will experience alot of things you don't understand in this world, even as an adult. I think you need to recognize that. I am happy you are trying to understand the Bible in order, perhaps, to make a more informed decision about whether or not you go on the Christian path. That is admirable. Also recognize that as humans, we continue to grow and evolve. The person I was at 14 is not who I was at 20; the person I was at 20 is not the person I am at 40. So decisions you make now may very well change as you grow. I can sense your struggle, as my step-daughter is also 14 (almost) and it is very important for her to understand the "whys" of things. She gets so upset if she can't understand it! Kiama is closer in age to you then I am at 40, and she has also spent some time studying religious beliefs. I'm sure she could concur with this statement: People are very passionate about their religion/s! Throughout history, people have struggled to understand what the Bible, the Koran, or the Buddhist teachings are *really* saying, and this has caused, particularly in the Christian faiths, several interpretations of the Bible. But the truth is, no one knows what was really intended when the words were recorded centuries ago. In my years, I have attended many religious courses at university and read a great many things. I am always struck by the common topics in all religious writings and beliefs: 1. Don't hurt others. 2. Live your life simply and peacefully. 3. Remember things are not always what they seem - don't judge others. There are more, but I think you start to get the picture. What I am trying to say is that perhaps the writings of the religions of the world are not as important as trying to live your life in a humanistic and compassionate way. I personally believe that when my time comes, the divine won't ask me what religious faith I practiced, but rather, how I lived my life, and I'll be judged on that. The more you study, the more informed you'll be, Coldsuns, and then you can make a decision about your spiritual path based on what you truly believe, not on what someone tells you to believe. Amyel

HudsonGray	01 Jun 2003
That Cain/Able thing just get glosses over quite frequently. If you look at the Jewish bible (yes, there is one) it's very similar to the regular bible, but contains more. The wife was gotten from 'the other people', there were other people in the world, they were from different tribes. The bible is looking at the beginning of this religion, not the Jewish religion so a lot got cut out over the last 1,500 years. The reason Martin Luther left the church was that he was required to write copies of the bible with passages changed, the order came from higher up & he was supposed to follow like all the other men doing copies of the books, but he rebelled. The King James version of the bible has a LOT of changes in it that are off from the original. And then you've got the fact that ancient Arabic and Hebrew are spoken languages with tonal variants to get the meanings across, but the written word can't show which one it is, so translating the original became rife with words that the translators were just guessing on. The passage about 'witches' was changed with the King James bible. The actual Hebrew word is closer to poisoner & the passage the line comes from is talking about water wells for villages being poisoned. The Jewish bible also mentions Lilith--but the other bibles don't. Lilith was made of mud by God and Adam's equal, yet didn't want to be subservient, she left Eden and never came back. God then fashioned Eve from a rib bone in Adam and Eve was able to be dominated by Adam & problem was solved. Lilith was given a bad PC makeover by later writers who turned her into everything bad about women that they could--they took a strong independent minded woman and made her a 1. baby killer, 2. man killer, 3. stealer of man's seed (succubus) & witch and anything else that would be guaranteed to look as bad as possible so people wouldn't consider her actions of independence as something they should follow. You're looking at a book of stories done during three or four different timelines in history, cobbled together, translated, retranslated, rewritten in some areas, which HAS survived about 1,500 to 2,000 years, but which is NOT in original format anymore. It's been interpreted in modern light, in medieval way of thinking, in slanted versions of thinking, as an accurate 'word for word' truth, and in many other ways. The old testament lists family lines & tribes, very important for a beginning religion. It lists metaphors for how to live together in harmony during those dangerous times when people killed people practically bare handed. The 10 commandments are rules for allowing large groups of people to live together with some semblance of peace (this is back when cities were around 1,000 people & most were in little villages of 20-maybe 250 people). It tells what not to eat (food poisoning, parasites, those all played a part back then), how to sacrifice to the one god (they were converting people who sacrificed to multiple gods, they had to blend cultures to get people over). In medieval times the Roman church did the same thing--ALL the major pagan holidays & special days were converted to Christian days in one form or another - some less successfully, like Ground Hog Day that became a cultural thing rather than a religious thing. Merging worked better than divide & conquer. The new testament was added much later. As was Revelations (and if you can make ANY sense out of Revelations, more power to you). Basically the bible is a 'work in progress' that's been IN progress since it basically started. There are going to be inconsistencies everywhere. Keep an open mind about it.

sagitarian	02 Jun 2003
When someone asks me what my religion is, I smile to them softly and explain gently that religion is a very personalized form of spirituality. That I'm a heinz 57 when it comes to what I believe in. If your spirit has questions about what, who the divine is, and what exactly the bible is, what it reflects, etc, then perhaps your concious is confused. In my past, I've found that there are three kinds of people (this is very generalized) when it comes to the bible (as far as how people think of it). 1. People who whole heartedly believe in the bible in that it is the divine word of God, and that means everything in the world to them. 2. People who think the bible is a really good story, and full of good morals, that it's never hurt anyone to teach them the stories, so if that's your thing, cool beans, if not, then so be it, go back to what ever you enjoy reading the most. 3. The bible is full of it, it's been translated a few different times, that certain texts have been left out of it entirely when translated, and the King James Bible version is full of holes b/c of the interpretations in the past. There are thousands of other combinations, and other people who relate to the bible differently, but this is the main three. No matter which one you are (or aren't) it is up to you to make up your mind about what you truly believe in, wether that includes God or not, and what all of that implies. It looks like it's maybe time for you to do some soul searching to bring some peace to your mind. btw, you can believe that the bible is full of it, but still be a hard core christian (or which ever religion you are) praying to the Lord and a true follower. According to the generalistic view point on believing in God is that he is all forgiving, and ultimately only he has the right to judge anyone. If you are good, and you believe in doing good things, and believe in him, then I would say that's good enough to call you a christian. I don't know if this helped or not, but some food for thought anyways.

Aerin	03 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by sagitarian The bible .......been translated a few different times, that certain texts have been left out of it entirely when translated, and the King James Bible version is full of holes b/c of the interpretations in the past. This to me is one the the biggest issues with the idea that the Bible is 'set in stone'. Here's an article I found http://orb.rhodes.edu/encyclop/religion/Bible/bible.html This book might be worth getting sight of http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-860118-2 I originally became aware of the issues from an ordained minister at my university. I found something out that was very interesting to me there: the college chaplains were always up for an intersting debate, one of the things they engage in during their studies. They treated me with respect and welcomed questions. Even their sermons were posed as a debate, giving all sides of a question and taking a position on it e.g. 'Is agnoticism possible?' was one I remember. The university Christian Union members I came across said things like 'you are evil questioning the word of God' etc. I drew my own conclusions from that. These didn't involve joining the Christian Union. Aerin ps be aware that this is an area that abounds with controversy... many of the links I found on the net go into various diatribes about how other's beliefs are ungodly etc etc. I think if you are really interested the way to go would be to find some repected historians/ become one yourself. As a way in to some of the arguments here's a link http://www.biblelife.org/word.htm pps here's a link on 'bible and witchcraft' that is very interesting http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl.htm

cjtarot	03 Jun 2003
Hi, Overwhelmed yet... I like this: "btw, you can believe that the bible is full of it, but still be a hard core christian (or which ever religion you are) praying to the Lord and a true follower. According to the generalistic view point on believing in God is that he is all forgiving, and ultimately only he has the right to judge anyone. If you are good, and you believe in doing good things, and believe in him, then I would say that's good enough to call you a christian. " SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US. NO ONE PERSON IS RIGHT. Believe there is an Almighty that comes to each and every one of us in a different way. Live by the basic rules of life - be a good person. READ everything and take away from it the meaning of the lessons on how to be a Good person, not exacts, not word for word. Be patient with your friends and yourself. Trying to find something you can hold in your hand and believe in (like the bible) is what we all did at one time in our life. Know that being a good person is more important than being able to quote the Bible word for word, especially if you do not live by the basic rules taught by all religions - (look at mimers experience with the person who mistankenly called himself a man of God). BE A GOOD PERSON, Respect others and all that the Almighty has given us and offer thanks for the gift of life, hardship lessons, and the unconditional Love the Almighty gives to all of us. The path to understanding God is long and sometimes difficult (mostly because of others), but worth taking..don't give up. Blessings Cj

Umbrae	03 Jun 2003
Most of the “Bible” is a metaphor. Much of it plagiarized from other sources. (Don’t the 10 Commandments echo the Judgments of the Soul in the Court of Osiris in the Egyptian book of the dead? Are not the Proverbs are a plagiarism of the works of the Egyptian Amenemope…) ‘Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of the world’. That is the premise of the entire Paulist or Pauline movement (St. Paul was originally named Saul of Tarsus). That was not the message of Jesus, or the Nazarene sect of the Essenes to which Jesus was a priest. Neither was it the message of James, who carried on the work of Jesus after ol’ JC disappeared, as did John the Evangelist. However resurrection and “died for our sins” and Son of God or just a man, even the ‘virgin birth’…all of that was Voted on (Counsel of Nicea – 325 CE), by a bunch of guys, who were under the threat of death by Constantine (who himself was a pagan) who sought to use a religion to bind his people together. So he ‘invented’ Christianity, based on Paulist doctrine, moved some holidays around. Constantine’s use of torture, death, and extreme censorship continue to this day. Look to history…do your homewok – so you can tell them ‘Why’ you don’t want to follow blindly a religion based on the ravings of a madman (St. Paul). Do your homework, set yourself free…

HOLMES	03 Jun 2003
to get out from the hieorphant influence and find the deeper truths. that which the hieorophant doesn't want us to know. *there is no body behind that curtain* *pay that little man no head* who are you ? *I AM OZ THE GREAT and powerful * the wizard says as he takes his mouth away from the microphone. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/1P8QVNIR3NNGV/ref=cm_lm_bg/002-4748124-6431232 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/3VDTHE044TDAJ/qid%3D1049874463/sr%3D5-5/ref%3Dsr%5F5%5F5/002-4748124-6431232 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/RVLFGO1Y760L/ref=cm_lm_dp_l_2/002-4748124-6431232 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/13PK0YV8XIUPR/ref=cm_lm_dp_l_2/002-4748124-6431232 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/29ROS15EO0VIT/qid=1046296078/sr=5-2/ref=sr_5_2/002-4748124-6431232 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/38AQRADCL84E2/qid%3D1050124604/sr%3D5-2/ref%3Dsr%5F5%5F2/002-4748124-6431232

Aerin	03 Jun 2003
Just remembered this book, Mr God This is Anna, by Finn. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006278914/aeclectictaro-21/ It is a book that really makes you think. It was bought for me by a devoutly Christian friend when I was about 14 or 15, and I was very skeptical as I would never have picked it up myself. I seem to remember spending a lot of time shouting 'exactly!'. Aerin ps 30th Anniversary edition out soon, with this book and also the sequels http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0007166419/aeclectictaro-21/

The Christian thread was originally posted on 01 Jun 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.