Do you believe in freedom?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

le-mat	23 Jun 2003
Hi you all! First of all, I have to say I've always believed in freedom - otherwise I wouldn't have learned Tarot at all. When I say "freedom" I mean the possibility of self-determination, the ability to choose which way to go. Like I said - the search for freedom guided most of my life. But I'm starting to think that we are so determined by circumstances that maybe there is little room for freedom. We are determined by our unconscious, by our social environment, by our genetic code, even by the language we speak. Do we have the chance to choose the way we act, the way we think, the way we feel? What do you think ???

The Enchanter	23 Jun 2003
I think we do have that freedom....if we didn't our lives would be run by a greater force or forces battling. It's a confusing but interesting subject.

divinerguy	23 Jun 2003
Fundamentally, we all have some degree of free will. We can choose to alter many things in our lives. However, as long as custom and tradition remain a part of our society, it is truly difficult to be a genuine free agent. Even the strongest among us is relatively powerless against the slings and arrows of the popular press, governmental action and family obligations. So, to a degree, fate or destiny does play a significant role in our lives. To what degree, depends in great part upon our courage and dedication to our beliefs. As an example. I, as a married, male attorney, will never be able to explore the metaphysical world as I wish. My family and professional obligations would suffer if I did so. So, I will continue to practice my faith in a relatively clandestine manner. That, it would seem, is my destiny.

Alobar	23 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy ...I, as a married, male attorney, will never be able to explore the metaphysical world as I wish. My family and professional obligations would suffer if I did so. So, I will continue to practice my faith in a relatively clandestine manner. That, it would seem, is my destiny. of course you have the freedom to explore your metaphysical boundaries! the ONLY thing stopping you is yourself. you choose to put these explorations on hold to create a more comfortable situation for your family. and, in fact, you also have the freedom to make that choice, so your destiny is very much in your own hands.

wavebreaker	24 Jun 2003
I think we have a lot of freedom, but it sometimes takes courage to actually use it, because it will mean going against other people's traditions and expectations, or taking certain risks. Whether you take those risks is entirely up to yourself; you have the freedom to take your freedom, so to speak. ;)

buzzbee	24 Jun 2003
I think that life's circumstances - loosely what we're born into and born with - set up certain parameters that allow for pre-designed learning experiences. We have free will in the design - we are the designers - and we have free will and choice as to how we respond within those lessons. It's not an exact science though - it moves in a flow of generalities.

Diana	24 Jun 2003
You can only be free when you have become the Fool. Remember the song Bobby McGee? "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose". The Fool understands that so well. Until we reach Fooldom, we are not free - always attached to something. Sigh...... That is why to me the Tarot cannot be the Fool's Journey. The Fool couldn't care two hoots about Tarot....... Not even one hoot. Why, he has even stopped counting.

sagitarian	24 Jun 2003
With a question like this, I like to look up the word and re-read the definition. Then come up with my own answer using the source of information. I looked it up using the following link. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary Main Entry: free·dom Pronunciation: 'frE-d&m Function: noun Date: before 12th century 1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous d : EASE, FACILITY e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken f : improper familiarity g : boldness of conception or execution h : unrestricted use 2 a : a political right b : FRANCHISE, PRIVILEGE synonyms FREEDOM, LIBERTY, LICENSE mean the power or condition of acting without compulsion. FREEDOM has a broad range of application from total absence of restraint to merely a sense of not being unduly hampered or frustrated . LIBERTY suggests release from former restraint or compulsion . LICENSE implies freedom specially granted or conceded and may connote an abuse of freedom . Said by La-met : When I say "freedom" I mean the possibility of self-determination, the ability to choose which way to go. So in this case, we are talking about liberation and independence to choose our own path of life. Liberation from the "old" laws of witch burnings, pagans being outlawed, and the coming of the times of the puritan christianity. Think no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Suffer the consequence if you did. The Scarlet letter, witch burnings, the 12 angry women, and an array of other laws, or ways of life. In our day and age, we have liberated ourselves from the old ways of the world and gained our independence to choose without consequences with the exception of the consequences we accept. For example, if one wears a necklace with a pentacle/pentagram charm on it, people are going to stare and think their own thoughts. We risk judgement of others, and if this is unbearable to an individual, then s/he can choose not to wear the symbol accept during personal rituals with only those that understand and accept the symbolism. We have our freedom, it's up to you how you practice it. Just by studying tarot alone at all, is practicing your own freedom of liberation and independence. Wether you use tarot for yourself, or for helpful insight for others doesn't matter, it's the fact that you still practice your personal independence in your own way. The fact that you have these two gifts alone combined is beautiful in itself, the gift of sight, and the gift of freedom! So yes, you too Diana is free! :)

le-mat	25 Jun 2003
you all said that freedom is when you trascend social rules and do what you want to do. that is the idea of freedom i've always had. but the things you want to do (even reading tarot) are determined by what you lived in your childhood. if you can find a cause for a certain behavior, then that behavior is not free at all. so a free act would be one with no cause. and that's kind of impossible. what we call "freedom" is actually giving more priority to our psychological determiner than to our social determiner.

sagitarian	25 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by le-mat you all said that freedom is when you trascend social rules and do what you want to do. that is the idea of freedom i've always had. but the things you want to do (even reading tarot) are determined by what you lived in your childhood. if you can find a cause for a certain behavior, then that behavior is not free at all. so a free act would be one with no cause. and that's kind of impossible. what we call "freedom" is actually giving more priority to our psychological determiner than to our social determiner. Mmm, if you use the definition revolving around liberation, then yes, you liberate yourself from the social rules and practice your own independence. There is a cause and effect for everything, but just b/c there's a reason for the cause doesn't mean you don't have freedom. Your past doesn't dictate everything you are. A person who was raised in an abusive relationship doesn't mean they will beat their kids. They'll know the difference between discipline and abuse and discipline their children leaving out the abuse. Then again, a person who was raised in a family that practiced discipline without abuse, most likely will raise their kids in that same fashion. Both have a reason why they raise their kids in similar ways, but that doesn't mean they don't have that freedom to choose how to raise their children. You can choose to NOT hit your child no matter WHAT kind of upbringing you have. So to say we are all "victims" of our past is ridiculous. You can be a victim if you want to be, but I refuse to let my past dictate the rest of my life. Therefore I've liberated myself from my past experiences and I am free to make my own choices, to dictate my own fate. Obviously you are a psychology buff, and I am too. I studied it for years with the illusion that I wanted to be a counselor and decided to use what I know as a teacher instead. I have no idea what in the world you are talking about by psychological determiner vs social determiner. Freedom comes from making your own choices regardless of outside influences, no matter why you decide on those choices, or why you choose to be liberated, or independent. Nothing is more precious then being free, so the attempt to try to prove there is no such thing as freedom due to your personal psychological issues that come from the past is gerbal (in my humble opinion). Try to tell a black person that they don't have freedom, or try to tell the females of america that they have no freedom in the workplace, or freedom of speech. I don't know where you come from, but I live in America, and here, we take pride in freedom and we take it very seriously! We fought long and hard (and still do) for our freedom as well as the freedom and liberation of that of other countries. Take a good look in World War II when we liberated the French, and various other countries when it wasn't even our war. Freedom is a state of mind. It's up to you decide if you are free or not. That decision alone is yours to make and no one else's and not even your past can effect your choice in freedom. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as hero's. A fireman knows that jumping into that building on fire may get him killed, but there's a baby screaming in that house and a mother frantic in tears watching the house burn with only the worst possible death that she can think of coming over her baby in the next few seconds. He makes that choice to risk his life in effort to save another life. He is free to make that choice. Maybe he liberated himself from fear of fire by becoming a fire fighter. People often say you don't know what you got until it's gone. Well, I've never lived anywhere but America, but I know my freedom is very important to me, and very precious. I know it will never be taken away from us, and that's what freedom is about, the choice to be free, to be independent, to be liberated from those that would like to "control" you. Think about it!

le-mat	25 Jun 2003
i'm not discussing political freedom here... i'm talking about the possibility of self determination, not democracy, so don't get me wrong. just think for a second: why does the fireman saves people, putting in risk his own life? if you answer "because he thinks is the best thing to do" then i would have to ask: "why does he think that is the best?" and one answer would be: because of the moral values he adquired through education (social cause). so for every action there must be cause. right now, i'm writing because i just NEED to make my point clear. I'm doing some research now - and what i'm saying here it's not so crazy. many philosophers thought the same way centuries ago. I read an article about free will that said that "this question has never been resolved in a satisfactory way". So I think that after all this subject deserves some thinking. If we just reject an idea because we don't like it, then we won't learn anything about the world and end up seeing just one side of the coin. Don't get me wrong: I love the idea of freedom. I've always fought for it, and if posted this thread is because my life has no point now that i think that -maybe- freedom doesn't exists. I'm not trying to convince any of you. I'm just really really sad and need to discuss it.

Diana	25 Jun 2003
There is an expression in French that goes "la liberté s'arrête là où commence celle de l'autre", which means "Freedom ends there where it starts for someone else". It means that if we really act in a completely free way, we end up by trampling on someone else's freedom. An extreme example: If as a mother of a small baby, I decide that I don't feed my baby because I feel like being free to go hiking in the mountains on my own for a week, my baby will die. So I will be taking away his life. And therefore his freedom to live. A less extreme example: If I want to listen to my music full-blast 24 hours a day, I'm free to do it. But I am preventing other people from having a peaceful life. Taking away their freedom to live in a quiet environment. Mortal beings can never be free.

Alex	25 Jun 2003
I believe we can convince ourselves of such reality, if we try hard. Alex.

sagitarian	26 Jun 2003
Oh no, not at all Le Mat, but in order to talk about freedom, one must define all aspects of it. I get you, and understand what you mean. You're talking more of social freedom, or more importantly, the question being is anyone "truly" free. As others have expressed like Diana, yes, you choose to make certain decisions which are considered sacrifices or comprimises, but then you must ask yourself why? A mother could've have choosen many other decisions when she found out she was pregnant. Why did she choose to carry the child, and further then that, raise the child. Many pregnant women give their children up for adoption for multiple reasons, and I think it's great that we have this choice available to us for others that can't have children, to be able to raise and love a child. As for me, I decided to carry my children, and mother them, promising to love and look after them for as long as there is breath in my lungs? Why? B/c I find the love I feel for them incredible, and I feel like my spirit would die without them. You could say I've found my lovers card inside motherhood. I love them more then what words of love for an eternity could express, therefore, I make the sacrifices and comprimises necessary to raise them to the best of my ability. But I have that freedom of choice (and still do). I could still decide to give my children up for adoption, but I feel as though I could never do this, I could never give my children up due to how intense my love for them is. I understand that all the choices we made in our past leads us to the very moment that we are experiencing right this second. In that, our past has dictated where we stand today, that I agree with, and with those choices, yes we made them as we felt that they were the best choice to make given our circumstances wether good or bad. On a psychological level, I disagree with the theory of victims of our past. In sociology, I agree, sometimes we make decisions upon the opinions of others, or their opinions effect our choices. If someone told you how awful their food was at a particular restaurant, you may choose to never eat there again, but I tell ya what, if I followed my mothers' convictions of bad mexican restaurants, then I would have missed out on what I thought was some pretty good food. I made that choice to try it regardless of her convictions and opinion. I agree that freedom is a state of mind, but it's also political, and this effects everyone in the world in one way or another. I know I am free. Wether that is a state of mind, or a reality, ( a fine line between earthly truths and internal truths) it matters not to me. I am free, and I love that I am free. I still don't understand how you feel you are not free Le Mat. It sounds like you feel you are not "free" to make choices without judging, or predicting the outcome of the various choices first.

wavebreaker	26 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by sagitarian I agree that freedom is a state of mind, but it's also political, and this effects everyone in the world in one way or another. Indeed: one country's freedom is another country's limitation in freedom, something we are seeing happening in the world today, unfortunately... :(

Minderwiz	26 Jun 2003
Freedom is actually a very difficult concept to pin down - we have had several different views expressed above. I think there are a number of key concepts involved in the discussion. Firstly choice - I cannot chose to make myself invisible or to be 25 instead of 55. I cannot lift a ton weight unaided. I am not free to defy the laws of physics. I think most of us accept that limit on our freedom. I can though make certain choices, what to say, how to act, what to write, how to treat other people and to an extent what to think (though this is likely to be conditioned by my social environment and the stimuli that I am exposed to). Secondly obiligation - I cannot exercise my choice without others recognising an obligation to allow me the right to act. The only area this doesn't apply to is what I think - As Thomas Hobbes said ' only God knoweth the heart'. I am only free to live my life in peace as long as others recognise an obligation to allow me to do it. I can only enjoy my car providing that others feel an obligation to allow me to do so. Without obligation we would all be free to do anything we liked and to anybody - the life of man would be in Thomas Hobbes phrase 'nasty brutish and short' Thirdly social context - leaving aside my freedom to explore my spiritual side - as J J Rousseau said, man is a social animal. We are gregarious, we are naturally group or tribally based. In such a context my freedom must, as Diana pointed out, have to co-exist with the freedom of others. The Utilitarians such as Bentham and Mill talked about the greatest happiness of the greatest number, a clearly social definition for moral behaviour. The great Vulcan, Spock, pointed out tht the Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.' Freedom therefore becomes relative and the philosophy of freedom really depends on where you draw the line between the needs of the many and the needs of the one. It is therefore possible that the fireman willingly gives his life for the lives of others. He may do it also for religious reasons - he believes it will give him entry to an afterlife or as Thomas Hobbes rather cynically put it, he couldn't live with himself if he didn't act. To what extent I am free to think, to what extent I am free to contact the divine, to what extent I am free to develop myself take us into the realms of metaphysics. If I am the product of social conditioning and genetics have I any freedom? Even if experiences alter my thought patterns, am I free to choose these experiences or simply reacting to them. I'm not sure we will ever answer those questions, though I tend to believe that given that we live in a world of probability rather than certainty and that many systems are chaotic and unpredictable, that we do have some freedom to be other than we are.

sagitarian	26 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minderwiz Freedom therefore becomes relative and the philosophy of freedom really depends on where you draw the line between the needs of the many and the needs of the one. You hit it on the nail here Minderwiz. The rest of the post was beautifully put as well, but I really love this statement, and how true it is! Thanks for posting your thoughts!

Wisp Wings	27 Jun 2003
This has been an interesting thread. So much wrote that is valid and true. Freedom, total and true 100% freedom is as said "just another word for nothing else to lose" and it certainly is the degree of that margin we decide to draw as stated above. Obviously because we aren't alone the extent of our freedom is felt, even oppressed upon others close to our confines. We are tribal and so we choose to live in degrees of compromises and committments. A spouse marries with the committment to be faith to the mate. When one of them decides to have several other mates, outside of the marriage, the committment is violated, and as long as each spouse is okay with the living arrangements the freedom to have the extra-marital affairs continues. LOL, almost the same could be true of living in a country without freedom, you can have your upmost desire of freedom lived out, to the point that the armed forces there takes your life breath from you. Yet for however short that period, you chose to live in freedom. It is what you're willing to risk in the loosing and the extent your willing to go it. IMHO I believe we do chose the birth and the pival points we have in our lifes and even our death, before coming to be born. We have a group of people that we continue to stay with life after life and we decide (in group/partial groups) who will be what roles in this lifetime while in a realm on the other side. We do have free-will, therefore we can stray from the path (perhaps just in degrees). Yet I am saying that we pick the society that we are born into and we develope the social conscious that is befitting of that society. So from that stance, I guess, we have complete freedom when we made that choice.

The Do you believe in freedom? thread was originally posted on 23 Jun 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.