Hope, despair and alcoholism

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	16 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden In light of Demonesse's post, I am now thinking the problem of alcohol and binging has actually very little to do with permission, but rather to do with a lack of sense of purpose, and of self. Those who throw themselves drunk at fourteen binge-ingly on the dance floor are missing something, I think, better to do, perhaps even missing a sense of hope in the future. Permissivity or strictness cannot alter the underlying reasons children throw their lives away on drink, if they do. This thread is the continuation if the ……. riddle theme that is nearing a close in another part of this forum. Someone suggested a new thread and I think it is worth it, as I haven’t seen too many discussions about this issue at Aeclectic. I looked at the thread thinking it was another game and then became engrossed. I think Firemaiden has hit the nail on the head. Problematic alcohol or drug use is all ultimately about hope and despair. It may begin with someone filling a gap, dealing with pain, avoiding life, having a genetic predisposition, simply developing a physical and emotional dependence, but it all ends in despair. Quote: from Notes for an Inquest by Michael Dransfield 1949 - 1973 It is late it will be much too late death follows me a naked rider on a ravaged horse grey clouds descend I am drowning Unable to swim in air any longer Or tread water through the solitary Abyss of deprivations Michael Dransfield was a young Australian poet of my generation who died of a heroin overdose but the main drug problem in Australia at present is not heroin but alcohol. We have one of the highest rates of alcoholism in the western world. Close to 4,000 Australians died directly of alcoholism last year although most people accept that number could be at least doubled. Another 2,000 died other drug related deaths. The research clearly shows now that alcohol misuse is the greatest drug problem facing young Australians, not heroin or party drugs. Australia is a good place to live and has been a prosperous country, yet our young men have the highest suicide rate in the western world. Alcohol is involved in many of these deaths. I won’t go on with statistics. You all are probably aware of the story they tell – the ripple effect is as important as the deaths. I think alcohol problems reflect complex issues of spiritual malaise, often exacerbated by physical vulnerability. Yet we laugh about it a lot, even here. You may not agree with this opinion and that’s all right, but how do we deal with such spiritual malaise, such abnegation of hope? Now, recovery is a spiritual matter essentially and you find many people in places like this looking for spiritual purpose and meaning. If they are lucky enough to find their way here or to similar places, that is. Carl Jung believed that for certain people the only solution was a "......spiritual or religious experience - in short a genuine conversion.......While such experiences bring recovery to alcoholics they are.......comparatively rare." But how do we prevent people from starting out on this road, or is it simply a personal journey they must follow? We Australians write about such things beautifully but romantic and achingly sad poems don't do more than describe the sadness. I work in a drug. rehab centre and we have lost three young people in the last 8 months. Quote: Metho Drinker by Judith Wright Under the death of winter's leaves he lies who cried to nothing and the terrible night to be his home and bread. "O take from me the weight and waterfall of ceaseless Time that batters down my weakness; the knives of light whose thrust I cannot turn; the cruelty of human eyes that dare not touch or pity." Under the worn leaves of the winter city safe in the house of Nothing now he lies. His white and burning girl, his woman of fire, creeps to his heart and sets a candle there to melt away the flesh that hides the bone, to eat the nerve that tethers him in Time. He will lie warm until the bone is bare and on the dead dark moon he wakes alone. It was for Death he took her; death is but this and yet he is uneasy under her kiss and winces from that acid of her desire.

quan_yin	16 Jun 2003
Moongold, I have wondered about this issue myself. Around me, the drug of choice seems to be prescription antidepressants. But the reasons are the same as what you have described. It's tough to watch my best friend, a highly trained cancer MD, pop Zoloft every day because she finds life too painful to live. She struggles with depression and says she needs the Zoloft to balance the chemicals in her brain. Yet I am torn, because I am not convinced that this is a medical physical problem as much as a deep seated spiritual emptiness. Her despair is clear. But here, we have different ideas of the root cause and what to do... It's impossible to argue with a best friend who is a doctor and can tell you all about the medical argument for anti depressants (it's about chemicals in the brain that need to be supplemented,) and I am sure that is true for some people. But I am bothered that for her, anti depressants becoming a drug of choice, on an ongoing basis. It's like taking a "whatever" approach to life. I should also mention she has abused alcohol for some of the same reasons, to handle the overwhelming sense of feeling lost in life. She is not open to the spiritual world. I wish she wasn't so far away so I could intervene more effectively. But I also know that even if I were standing right there, I'm limited in how much I can help...even mentioning the word "spirit" or "energy" raises her ire. Sometimes the most accomplished thinkers are the hardest to reach. And it makes me very sad to watch.

Moongold	16 Jun 2003
quan_yin, Yes, the hardest to heal are often the healers. I am not sure about the medical profession but in my own sector there is a theory that many people enter the helping professions because of their deep seated need for reparation. It's all right if you are aware of that and can maintain health and boundaries but without insight this need can become a danagerous burden. There are many other theories too and none of them might apply to your friend. Often with addiction of any kind, the denial and the defences are so strong as to be impenetrable and only a series of crises has any impact. Sometime the progress of dpendence and addiction seems inexorable and insurmountable and one can only watch with trepidation. Occasionally, the individual concerned has insight but is unable to stop and that is most dangerous. I personally believe that a spiritual path in a 12th Step program of something similar is often the only was to resolution and long term contentment. Exposure to other possible methods of help are also really useful. To be honest, I am wearying of the despair and the freneticism and probably need a break myself. It is the first time I've actually said this :). On the week end I found myself beginning to imagine doing something else and the idea of leaving in a planned way lifted my spirits tangibly. I have a particular project to finish which will enable me to leave well if that is what I ultimately do.

Inana	16 Jun 2003
Have to agree addiction problems with alcohol or drugs involve a lack of hope in future. There's also that feeling of being lost in life and in world, but the primary point is still the dissatisfaction that person has with his current life. When a person loses the "fighting spirit" to overcome the problems one has, the self-destructive path can start. Then the addiction is the way to escape the problems and it balances the feeling of fustration and despair by having the mind away. Ok, this is the why and the how one can get trapped into it. The difficult part is how to get out. Mmmmh... Im not sure if i see this like an spiritual malaise, but i agree religious or spiritual experiences can help. This is for one reason: that kind of experiences involve faith, and is faith in themselves and in all that surrounds them other of the things that people with an addiction of this kind have lost.

Alex	17 Jun 2003
There is a biological predisposition to addictions in general, but the cause of any particular addiction is usually a conbination of unfortunate events. I'm generally medicated for attention deficit and hyperactivity. So I'm usually 10 mg of anfetamine salts from finding life too unpleasant and mostly to complicate to live. I am not addicted to the medication, but like someone who can't see without glasses, I function differently when I'm off the drug. Some people can function and be mildly happy when they are on medication. It's not necessarily a spiritual problem. Our bodies weren't made to sit in front of a computer screen all day, neither to eat french fries and hamburgers for lunch. Alex.

quan_yin	18 Jun 2003
There are people who need antidepressants like glasses. Yes. But I'm wondering about people who use drugs to escape their problems. For these people, I do feel this is a spiritual malaise. In some cases, I have noticed a tendency towards victim mentality and "woundology", for addictions and substance abuse. People feel victimized by life, severed from the divine connection (or at least something bigger than themselves), and so they rely on drugs as a necessity. They rationalize that it is ok, and quite understandable, in fact. Energetically they are literally leaking, spiritually they are lost. It's no wonder life is so painful when one is going through that. 12 step program are helpful, definitely. However, I can't help wondering that in some cases, after a while they actually hold people back, by focusing energy on the addiction rather than moving on with life. You get wonderful support in a 12 step. But at some point, one has to internalize their own support, not get too addicted to a support group. One has to be able to eventually move on with their lives. There are so many options for healing -- reikki, plant extracts, dreamwork, visualization, music, journaling, counseling, etc -- and if one modality is not working, one should try another. Perhaps for (some) people, drugs are necessary for a short time. But just like seeing a therapist weekly for 20 years is not ideal, neither is popping a Zoloft everyday forever, if one does not get to the root of what is hurting. Else, I wonder if these activities just foster an addiction to what Caroline Myess has called a woundology mentality. Woe is me, life is unfair, why is this happening to me, etc. Just my 2 cents.

Moongold	18 Jun 2003
Quote: In some cases, I have noticed a tendency towards victim mentality and "woundology", for addictions and substance abuse. People feel victimized by life, severed from the divine connection (or at least something bigger than themselves), and so they rely on drugs as a necessity. .... 12 step program are helpful, definitely. However, I can't help wondering that in some cases, after a while they actually hold people back, by focusing energy on the addiction rather than moving on with life. if these activities just foster an addiction to what Caroline Myess has called a woundology mentality. Woe is me, life is unfair, why is this happening to me, etc. It's really difficult to generalize. In our agency 2/3 of the women with addiction problems have a back ground of sexual abuse as children. An increasing number of young men do as well but not nearly in the same number as women. I doubt that these people are so rational about why they use drugs. It does seem to be connected with the consequences of the sexual abuse and the loss of identity and pain often associated with this. Of course there are many other reasons for people becoming dependent on drugs/alcohol and there is quite a lot of research about this. Some of the reasons have to do with genetic predisposition and entrenched family ways of dealing with difficulties and so on. Often there is not one single cause, and addiction is not usually linear. Whatever the reasons, a group of people do end up in serious difficulty and often require quite a lot of support and sophisticated intervention. Some of these interventions can be counselling, medical and natural remedies, self help groups, nutrition and so on. Sometimes all these intervention sare used as it is the whole person who is affected. The 12th Step Groups are not everyone's cup of tea but they do work for many. Essentially they can provide the most effective peer support and a spiritual path for change that is based on universal principles and is very individual. Often others do see them as being another dependence but I'd respectfully disagree with this. By the time people make it to 12 Step Groups they are close to the end of the road and a lot of damage has been done. Such damage takes time to repair. Many people use them to build new lives; others to maintain their way of life. They cost nothing and are purely a matter of choice for people. My comments about the spiritual malaise are certainly debatable, however. It is simply my feeling. I don't see people in Alex' situation as addicts in any way. I also have to take a drug for a physical condition and can't function physically without it. I am dependent on the drug but not in the same way as others who take drugs such as alcohol and heroin. It is concerning when one sees the personal and societal damage done by problematic alcohol or other drug use, however, reverting to the original post. Governments are in a double bind. Public use of these drugs, and nicotine as well, is a major health problem but Governments are dependent on them for tax revenue. In Australia, gambling on slot machines is the new social problem with increasingly alarming social consequences but in the state where I live 25% of Government revenue comes from gambling. This where I see addictions as being about hope and despair, and spiritual malaise, and I recognise that this is a very general and personal observation,

quan_yin	18 Jun 2003
Moongold, Thanks for your thoughtful note. I agree! I could never claim to know why these things happen, or why people should or should not take medication, and I really feel for what the people you described have gone through. I think 12 step programs are very helpful. The support, the recognition of spiritual help, etc. Invaluable. I only meant that I think these programs should be temporary and serve a purpose. People should eventually be released to move on with life, rather than rehashing the trauma over and over. In a way, the addiction becomes the reason for getting support, although the goal is recovery. I didn't mean that anyone taking medication everyday is an addict. Sorry if that is what it sounded like, as that would be horribly unfair. I was only thinking about situations when otherwise healthy people take antidepressants (or alcohol) to avoid addressing deeper problems. To me, that is an addiction. But perhaps I'm looking at the wrong addiction... The true addiction, to me, is the energetic imbalance behind the behavior, rather than the actual behavior itself. One cannot say just because a person is taking Zoloft, they are an addict. But I meant that it doesn't matter if you drink or pop Zoloft if the reasons behind the behavior are the same -- feeling lost and powerless and hopeless. It's a very destructive inner belief that begets more self pity, powerlessness, and self-entitlement. That is why I mentioned spiritual malaise, in this regard. And unfortunately, in this culture, being a victim can win you a lot of attention and support. Hope I make sense.

skytwig	18 Jun 2003
Hi, my name is Karen, and I am an addict..... It was difficult for me to read some of these posts. It appears that i am the first addict/alcoholic to post here. I, too, have worked in a rehab, and yes, the disease is an overwhelmingly frustrating one, especially when people die. I am also a Reiki healer, an artist, a writer, a mother, a childhood sexual abuse survivor, a widow, a person with diagnosed depression, and a downright funny, happy womyn! I look upon addiction as a brain disorder, much like schizophrenia. Many, many addicts were traumatized as children. Trauma causes brain damage in children and my theory is that most addicts suffered chemical imbalances from trauma. I also believe, as Dr. Nelson wrote in Healing the Split, that many so called brain disorders are actually spiritual openness that needs to be honored, not maligned. It is quite possible, for instance, that schizophrenics hear spirits and that we need to help them listen and set boundaries, not automatically assume that it is all imaginary 'stuff'!! Addicts tend to be some of the most talented amazing people i've ever met. They tend to be highly intelligent and it wouldn't surprise me that they are very olde souls.... The fact that they are still alive after a childhood of pain is incredible. Many are heroes and heroines. Brave souls who used in order to stay here. Addiction is an ugly disease. It is cruel when it is active. But the person who has the disease is precious. Spirituality is an individual process for all of us. We are amazing, humans. We are gifted with life. Let us ask questions, yes. But let us be very careful when we analyze something we have not experienced......

Alex	18 Jun 2003
Who am I to say anything, for I haven't been sexually abused. My mother was however very abusive verbally, and she beat me up almost daily. Most often I had no idea why I was being punished. But one thing I know. There more we dwell on past abuse, be that by talking, thinking or rationalizing it, the worse it gets. The only time when I felt severely depressed in life was when I was in psychoterapy to "deal with/ process/ resolve" past abuse. And yes, the more we center on "I" or "ME", the more we concern ourselves with our own maladies, past, present or future, the proner will we be to develop depression. Introspection, inner work, psychological treatement or whatever name you wannt to give it is OK, but a bit more of it, just a dropp more and you fall in a black hole of unhappiness. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold In our agency 2/3 of the women with addiction problems have a back ground of sexual abuse as children. An increasing number of young men do as well but not nearly in the same number as women

Macavity	18 Jun 2003
[quote]Originally posted by skytwig [...schizophrenics hear spirits and that we need to help them listen and set boundaries, not automatically assume that it is all imaginary 'stuff'!! [/quote]I wouldn't say imaginary, since they are "REAL" to the sufferer. Whether these are "spirits" must be moot though? One indeed observes that e.g. alcohol abuse is often comorbid to schizophrenia, but I have never (personally) heared a schizophrenic relate positively about the experience of this illness. I would suspect it is these negative feelings are indeed WHY many of these folk self-medicate. Incidences of addiction are MANY times greater in these groups than for the population at large. Fortunately, for many, the equation of: treated mental illness = no addiction often works well. Relapse is often observed when (often as other's suggestion) they cease to take prescribed medication... Quote: Let us ask questions, yes. But let us be very careful when we analyze something we have not experienced...... But, by the same token, doesn't this beg the question: Has the author of the book ever experienced schizophrenia? I suspect these subjects are grist for the mill, simply because society at large has a legitimate interest in ensuring that sufferers from mental illnesses and addiction are give the best possibility of recovery - And also (in part selfishly) in the case of diseases like schizophrenia, for ALL our sakes? But, who are we to perpetuate any condition, if there are treatments giving what is conventionally seen as approaching a cure? And I think we do have to consider what society, as a whole, considers to be "normal" behaviour on this one? ;) On the thread generally, I believe a more important point is that, at least at the present time, noone KNOWS precisely what causes ALL additions. Similarly, noone knows, in advance, what is going to be the most effective treatment for ALL addicts. Examples of successful treatment must include all of: Spiritual, Secular, Cognitive, "Talk-Therapy" and (latterly) direct Medical etc. etc. I suspect ALL have some success. Many folk need to incorporate more than one technique into their recovery, for, in isolation, measure sucess rates for many of these must be rarely more than a (very) few percent above natural remission rate. I think one of the depressing aspects of addiction is that some folk, particularly when recovered, come to believe they know exactly what is right for everyone else, based on their OWN experience... and woe betide dissenters! I suppose a consolation is that this is usually more prevalent on the internet, than in real life... }) Macavity

skytwig	18 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity [b] I wouldn't say imaginary, since they are "REAL" to the sufferer. Whether these are "spirits" must be moot though? One indeed observes that e.g. alcohol abuse is often comorbid to schizophrenia, but I have never (personally) heared a schizophrenic relate positively about the experience of this illness. Yes, that is so true. I was a Case Manger for addicted clients in an HMO and was amazed at how prevalent alcohol was the drug of choice for dual/schizophrenics. I used to think it was because the voices quieted down - they probably got drunk too! And, as far as the positives of schizophrenia - we never hear from those who hear positive voices; it is very possible that some people do! Who would need to complain if the voices they hear tell they are wonderful? Dr. Nelson presents an intriguing argument, pointing out that we, as a society, judge such 'illness' as 1) something to suppress and 2) an illness! It may not be! He argues that it is, very possibly, a psychic opening, which I lean very heavily toward. Transpersonal Psychology is leagues ahead of the APA! Quote: But, by the same token, doesn't this beg the question: Has the author of the book ever experienced schizophrenia? No, I don't think he has. I was just stating that we need to be careful when we discuss such things..... I would never presume to understand a black person's experience because I was raised by an English, white woman. I can empathize, but even that is limited. Quote: And I think we do have to consider what society, as a whole, considers to be "normal" behaviour on this one? ;) Yes, we do, but that is part of the problem, "normal", in many cases, results in prejudice! Women addicts have a terrible time getting help simply because society shames them about being 'drunk moms' or prostitutes or whatever their addiction drove them to. Shame is a huge factor in recovery. It is a huge factor in intervention; we as a society say, "get help" but what we often mean is "go away". Here in Baltimore, treatment is welcomed, but out in the county they "don't have drug problems"! Yet, the majority of drug crimes, in the city, involves addicts from the counties! What I was trying to point out is that we don't understand addiction or any mental illness, really. What is it? Why does it happen? What is a psychopathic, frighteningly unemotional, brain? As Aware people, seeking a deeper spiritual life, we would do well to maintain a very open mind about such subjects. Prejudice is insidious. It gets into the fabric of our thinking so well that we don't even realize we are judging..... I pointed out Dr. John Nelson's book because he challenges the standard psychiatric thought about mental illness. I heard once, that the Ancient Ones appear, in physical form, as bums, dirty clothing, crazy behavior, wandering the streets among us.... I've never forgotten that. It just may be true! Angels among us, looking like bums......... :)

quan_yin	19 Jun 2003
Excellent points. My original post had been on the concept of addiction rather than mental illness like schizophrenia. I too have heard that schizophrenia is called a psychic opening by some, and I really don't know enough to say. I see addiction as different from mental illness, though of course one may aggravate the other. When I say addiction, I was refering to the feelings of being spiritually and emotionally lost in life, poor esteem etc which result in things such as drugs, alcoholism, etc. To be sure, a mentally ill person may abuse substances too, but I was more focused on the lack of connection to Spirit that causes so many so much pain. It feels as if people who are joyous, connected to life and excited about living tend not to abuse substances. So that is why, to me, to break an addiction, the spiritual connection comes first, and then maybe other changes will follow after that. However people get there is fine, and I agree a multi-modal approach is a good one.

Inana	19 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by quan_yin Excellent points. My original post had been on the concept of addiction rather than mental illness like schizophrenia. I too have heard that schizophrenia is called a psychic opening by some, and I really don't know enough to say. Im living with someone affected. Visions torture deeply the person, and i cant see how can it help to develop spiritual conections. There's no way to know if this can be related to any kind of psychic opening, but i mostly think not because is the visions and the voices who are controlling the persons mind and not viceversa. I agree in what has been said about we dont knowing enough and not having a depth understanding about mental illness and addictions. Human mind is very complex. What im think is both addictions and mental illness have their root in an experience that hurts deeply the person, and it can damage them spiritually. Something like if the bound between the world and the self gets broken temporarily and needs to be fixed again? Is this what you are saying in this thread? Some people can have more predisposition to addiction or inestability because personality or genetical aspects, but i tend to believe there's some event which give rise to it. And this doesnt make any person worse. Is just an issue that needs help, comprension and a fighting spirit. Think about phoenixes.

Moongold	19 Jun 2003
I think one of the most obvious things about the use of drugs is that they alter mood and sense of reality, often in a very pleasant, relieving or exciting way. Quite a few people for whole variety of reasons get hooked on the feeling of release, the altered state, and end up with major physical, spiritual or emotional problems. The use becomes habitual and the necessary and then absolutely essential. Somewhere along this continuum the person loses whatever sense of self s/he has and that is a real spiritual loss. However, these are my experiences and observations. A person at the end of the road is not even going to know what I am talking about. There are always going to be different experiences about addiction and recovery as both quan_yin and Macavity have said. I think that if kids grow up with as sense of being loved and valued and a joyous connection to life, they are less likely to get into trouble, but there are no guarantees. I’m interested in both structural and personal approaches. Many of the young men I referred to in my original post, for example, live in rural Victoria which has changed considerably partly because of the far-reaching tentacles of globalization. Families have lost livelihoods going back generations and there is little hope for many. Make guns easily available, add alcohol and the impulsiveness of youth to the mix and you have a deadly situation. Already, with that brief scenario, a number of structural approaches become immediately evident. There is something in there also about helping young kids on a personal level to remain emotionally healthy, to hang on to dreams and hope. There are other scenarios too, where the same analysis can be made. Translating these analyses into government programs is another issue, however. And we can only love and support the individuals in our immediate environment. As quan_yin and Skytwig said, in different ways, people in recovery need to move away from a sense of woundedness to a sense of power and healing in their own lives. That is the spiritual process in my opinion, and the main solution. The trouble is you can sentence a person to jail or community service but you can’t sentence him to a spiritual path. quan_yin, I sense a lot of warmth, openness and awareness in you regarding addiction. The 12th Step groups do actually focus on the spiritual recovery, not the addiction. As there are new people attending all the time, the weight in this varies considerably. The spiritual path is based on awareness, surrender, faith, setting things right, and reliance on spirituality or a higher power rather than the drug. Eventually people do recover their lives and move on to a lesser involvement although they often remain connected in some way for their life times.

Moongold	19 Jun 2003
Richard Warner in Recovery from Schizophrenia describes the different experience of psychosis in urban western societies and unspoiled Asian communities, In the former an individual might be diagnosed as mentally ill; and in the latter he might be understood as spiritual seer. It very much depends of the societal structures and concepts about illness. I’ve oversimplified there but the essence is probably correct. Two independent Australian researchers, John Watkins and Dorothy Hall, have done considerable research into what it is to hear voices. John even wrote a book (Hill of Content mid 1990’s) called Hearing Voices Most often the voices are not pleasant occurrences. Most people would prefer not to have them, although there are undoubtedly personal and cultural factors in there as well. The experience of addiction is often hugely influenced by cultural and other structural factors as well. Cocaine was originally gainfully used by South American Indian cultures to enable them to work effectively at high altitudes. Apparently addiction was not an issue. The growing incidence of alcoholism in the USSR has a definite correlation to structural and cultural factors.

Macavity	19 Jun 2003
I think you're right Moongold - especially about the continuum. I think it is easy for almost anyone to fall into addiction, be it inherent or situational at root. There are indeed the horrifying statistics involving rural or "indiginous" populations though, but even there, it is sometimes unclear which of the above is the cause. Perhaps both? There is one point where you say: "The trouble is you can sentence a person to jail or community service but you can't sentence him to a spiritual path". Well, in some countries, increasingly you can! ;) I think this is another of the controversial areas, with the increase in court mandated treatment. And I'm not sure EITHER the "militant atheist" drunk or the spiritual recovery groups are particularly happy with that one - If the acrimony in debate is a measure. There may even be constitutional/freedom issues, where these are defined... But I simply don't KNOW the answer on that one either! :D I think, as skytwig suggests(?) it's easy to go over the top on requiring everyone to conform to the norm. But, was not the Oracle at Delphi a sad failure of "Care in the community?" Yet, it is an almost impossible task to balance the needs of society against the right of the individual... and, as stated, the victims are not always the best judges. But, to Quan-Yin, with the admirable concern, it is still the "right" of your friend to keep on drugging, if indeed that IS what they are doing? This isn't always clear cut. It may be that the person fulfills all societal requirements, if not yours ;) It may be e.g. that this persons employer might have other ideas, but that is another area of complexity and I don't think one should preempt this either. Any "intervention" should bear such things in mind. I think you may have to resign yourself to the fact that it is still the right of many to "carry on with their addiction." One of the few markers I have seen, indicative of a likely success is WANTING to quit. To end on a brighter note, this had set me wondering: Wither much Aeclectic discussion had they "forced" Aleister Crowley into rehab? :D Macavity

quan_yin	19 Jun 2003
Omg, that is so true. One lesson for me in watching my bestfriend is that she has chosen this. I have had to really take note of my JUDGEMENT in all of this, as I love my friend so much. There are those who would say, love the person but hate the sin" when it comes to stuff people don't agree with. For me, that is not enough. I've learned that IT IS NOT UP TO ME TO JUDGE how someone else chooses to live. Just because it doesn't fit my idea does not mean it is Wrong or I should look down my nose at them. I am not able to make such judgements because I don't know what the grand plan is. I can't imagine that substance abuse fits into a grand karmic plan but again, I don't know and it is not up to me to figure it out. Perhaps there have been repeated issues of substance abuse throughout the lives, and this is a continuation the soul is working out. Naturally, I would like for her to be happier and drug free in this lifetime, but it is not up to me, and she is a wonderful friend anyway. Besides, oozing too much "wanting to help" all the time is not always helpful. Frankly, it pisses people off. Who is it that said more damage has been done by "do gooders" than any other group of transgressors, since people are always working from their perspective of what "good" is, and that is not always the same for everyone. It's like passing judgement on someone else as defective in their very existence and choices. Zoloft just IS. It's neither "good" or "bad" in of itself. And if May doesn't want my help or opinion with her depression, well, I have to let her be. I'ts not helpful for me to preach or shake my head. If I did that, she'll hang up, and what good would that do to the friendship? I guess what I'm saying is trying to declare what is right for everyone is a hopeless cause. Even when they're miserable. Even if you have helpful thoughts about being "spiritually aligned with the divine," or whatever. It's kind of like people trying to help everyone by saying everyone should be Christian. Some people will think that is a great idea!!!! But there will be a lot that say, whoa, slow down, I don't know! At least people don't go into Crusades movements anymore in the effort to 'help' their fellow man.

Moongold	19 Jun 2003
People might be interested in this. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/19/1055828435461.html

skytwig	19 Jun 2003
Good article, moongold. I have found that people are less likely to 'use' if they take their medication. This points to brain chemistry imbalance. I know for me, the depression was sooooo very crippling. I suffered from it as a child and by 16 I was planning my death. I could hardly walk or sit up; I was that overwhelmed by the chemical imbalance. That;s when I started sneaking booze. I had a teacher who told my parents I was suicidal, but, my father being mentally ill and abusive to me, did nothing. Depression is a very real thing. It is not a result of thoughts. It is a problem with the neortransmitters in the brain. I believe that the trauma of my childhood led to this brain damage. When I drank, I didn't feel that horrid feeling in my body, I could function. It numbed the depression, oddly, although it of course fed the depression, too, as alcohol is a depressive. Addicts in recovery don't like to take ANY medications! Doctors have to fight them to get them to do so. I became suicidal in recovery because i refused to take anti-depressants. I had a plan and i was determined to do it. I came home from a meeting, was going to do it and found my son telling me he loved me on a voicemail. I was going to kill his only living parent!!!!! The next day, I went to a meeting and shared about it. I told them I had the prescription but i felt like a failure if i filled it. You would not believe how many people came up to me afterwards and told me they, too, are on medication. I went straight to the pharmacy. I went back to that meeting everyday, because it takes weeks for the medication to clear out the depression. They kept me alive, those wondrous people!!!! Also, if a person doesn't need Zoloft or other anti-depressants, they simply won't do anything. They are not mood altering. They are not like tranquilizers..... Heres the thing - I don't believe this depression is a spiritual state. Just as some people are diabetic, I suffer from a physical abnormality that causes depression. I'm not sure that addiction is a spiritual malady, either. It certainly creates one, however. Addiction may be a brain disorder; schizophrenia may be the same. We just don't know enough yet. Science is -able-,- -no-w, to study the brain in a way it never has before. It is getting closer and closer to pinpointing exact locations of disorders in the brain. As a result, medications can be specifically developed for each type of brain 'problem'. There are those who would hollar at me for saying this, but I think one day, science will find a brain 'site' for addiction. It is my hope that one day medication will be developed to control it. Until then, the 12 steps are the miracle treatment!

Baby Owl	19 Jun 2003
skytwig, I believe you are absolutely right about depression. I think clinical depression comes in various levels -- from minor to moderate to severe and everything in between. It really bothers me when people say taking medication for depression is "a weakness" and that they prefer to "work it out themselves" as if that somehow makes them a better person. They are ignoring the fact that most people who take medication for depression have tried hard to overcome it through other means (some of them destructive). One person I know disparages his girlfriend for taking medication. He says he prefers to handle things himself. He does this by over-consuming alcohol on a regular basis. Yet he prides himself that he is not "taking medication" ! When you reach a point where you are either planning your suicide or fantasizing about a drive-by shooting taking you out of your misery -- it's not just self-pity or "negative thinking." It won't be corrected by a self-help book or simply "shaking it off" or even by "talking to a counselor." I applaud you for doing what you needed to do to reach the emotional/mental balance so many people take for granted. Baby Owl

Alex	19 Jun 2003
But that's why I think biological determination plays a big role. My experiences with drugs have been quite pathetic as far as making me feel any good, except for psychoestimulants, which I take as medication. For example, I like beer quite some, but can't really say that I feel good after drinking, at least not as much as I can say that I like the taste of beer. Often, when I drink, I feel sad or angry, tired and moody. So I don't drink much, and never excessively. It just makes me feel too bad. I don't recall having abused substances of any kind. My body just can't take it. Some people have a biological predispositon to process substances in a pleasant way. Others don't. Just a thought. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold I think one of the most obvious things about the use of drugs is that they alter mood and sense of reality, often in a very pleasant, relieving or exciting way. Quite a few people for whole variety of reasons get hooked on the feeling of release, the altered state, and end up with major physical, spiritual or emotional problems. The use becomes habitual and the necessary and then absolutely essential.

skytwig	19 Jun 2003
babyowl - that's it, right there - what many take for granted. To those of us who have struggled against things like addiction and/or depression and/or abuse, normalcy is a wonder! As the medication began to work, I kept telling people i felt like i did as a child. I was stunned by the beauty and the clarity around me. The greyness was gone. I could see color again. I no longer felt like an elephant in mud. I felt like skipping!! Oh, it was soooo exquisite. Depression had become so familiar, that i no longer knew what it was to be normal. I think it comes down to not what we have as what we do with it. In another thread, we have discussed illness and disability and how we 'deal' with it, even how we learn from it. It is a marvelous thread. I think much of what we discussed in that thread applies here... it's about finding the gold, the jewels in something that is frightening or unwanted or even crippling.... Addiction, depression, and mental illness are terrible burdens. No one wants to have any of those conditions. Yet, if we find ourselves dealing with such an 'event', what do we do with it? How do we use it to grow, to change, to become wiser and more empathetic toward others? How do we become the best person we can be and, in fact, can the condition help us to become that? I think so. It has made me a better person, a kinder person, and, in the long run, a happier person. Drowning in the depths of Shadow has a way of transforming Light into a blessing so precious that one becomes determined to never lose it. Shadow is the Moon, especially the Moon of Eclipse. It is not to be feared, but embraced. And when we do, we gain a wealth that makes us richer spiritually, emotionally, mentally .... you name it. For me, that is the whole Path that Tarot explores, anyway,,,,, learning the beauty, the exquisite beauty, of Light through the gift of Shadow....... skytwig :)

Moongold	20 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex But that's why I think biological determination plays a big role. My I don't recall having abused substances of any kind. My body just can't take it. Some people have a biological predispositon to process substances in a pleasant way. Others don't. Just a thought. Alex. Alex, There is a lot in what you say. I can't recall the research to mind but there has been quite a lot of work on this, particularly in relation to alcohol dependence. We know it runs in families. You've inspired me to go and do a search.

Moongold	20 Jun 2003
Here is a link which gives some information about biological/chemical factors in alcholism and heroin addiction. http://neuro-www.mgh.harvard.edu/forum/AddictionF/11.29.989.06PMAlcoholalcoholis Skytwig has also mentioned the chemical imbalance which can lead to depression and thence to some way of coping with the greyness. This is very familiar territory. So already we have two different chemical/biological hypotheses, and there is a more than likely possibility that both could apply to one person. This illustrates the complexity of the issues, doesn't it?

Alex	21 Jun 2003
Moongold I think we often make a cunfusion between "cause" of depression and syntomatology. Neurotransmitter imbalance is a fact in depression as much as saddness is a fact in depression. No one would say that "saddness" causes depression, but I woudn't go as far as saying that organic neurotransmitter imbalance causes depression either, with the exception of may be 5% of the cases. Neurotransmittor imbalance is a fact in depression; therefore, depression can be "corrected for" by correcting such imbalance. What is the use, however, of feeding a pool with water if it has a big hole in the bottom through which the water drains constantly? Wouldn't be more effective just to close that drain? More often than not, doctors cannot find the drain, that's the truth. Alex.

cyan	21 Jun 2003
this is a very interesting and helpful thread. thank you all for sharing. one thing i would like to add is a recomendation for the book Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey. there is also a website: http://www.rational.org/recovery/ Jack's program is for those who don't fit into the 12 step way of life for one reason or another. it isn't based on spirituality, or admitting one is powerless in the face of addiction. i consider myself, as a solitary witch, to be very spiritual but there is no way i could handle a 12 step program. this book has helped me turn my life around. Jack and his wife, Lois also have another book called Taming Your Feast Beast that deals with the problem of food addiction. chow

The Hope, despair and alcoholism thread was originally posted on 16 Jun 2003 in the Spirituality board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Spirituality, or read more archived threads.