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Lit. Quote (Jan 8) - Solved

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.



MattDouglas  08 Jan 2004 
This is a liitle long but it's good!

From "Peril's Gate" by Janny Wurts

"I could sit, fully clothed, with my weapons returned," Arithon remarked, too spent to shepherd his temper. "Is the awkward? Unlike Kamridian, I refused the convenience of death."
Davien's spare features showed evil delight. "Do you know you are the only man, ever, to master the first trial of the maze who had the the harebrained AUDACITY to challenge me? You ask, IS THIS AWKWARD? For the Fellowship and the Koriani Order, the issue's beyond any doubt. For myself, I would sit entranced at your feet, sword or not. I have full respect for your outrage, Teir s'Ffalenn. It's your talent that's frankly unsettling."
Arithon lost his breath, taken aback.
The Sorcerer's laughter rang out, fluid as springwater tumbling through sudden sunlight. "Oh, my wild falcon! Can you fly, and not know. You are probably the most gifted individual ever to try the influence of the Fellowship of Seven." Perversely confounding that blistering sarcasm, Davien raised a congenial foot and slid the felt hassock toward Arithon.
"How does that signify?" Far from relaxed, Rathian's prince conceded and sat.
"To the Fellowship? Endowed as you are, they would never dare approach you. Dakar's no liability. Despite his excesses, his idiot vices, and his ungovernable passions, he will achieve the stability of a diamond, though a thousand years may be needful to mold him." At once gauntly brooding against rich autumn hangings and the shine of bronze fittings on the clothes chest, Davien propped his chin on his thumb. "Ah, but you! Yours, the quality no teaching can bridle. Men call it arrogance. Koriathian see pride. But a Sorcerer looks deeper. What you have is an unequivocal self-honesty rooted in a poet's perception." 


Mystic Zyl  09 Jan 2004 
King of Wands? 


gloria  09 Jan 2004 
King/Swords? 


MattDouglas  09 Jan 2004 
Sorry gloria and Mystic Zyl, those aren't it.
I can understand your thinking that it's a King, since Arithon is an heir to a sort of kingship, but that's not it. I'm curious why y'all chose to suits specifically. Feel free to post reasons or intuitions. 


jmd  09 Jan 2004 
VII the Chariot? 


Star Spirit  10 Jan 2004 
the Emperor? 


MattDouglas  10 Jan 2004 
Jmd and Dead Star, those aren't it either.

Dead Star, the card I picked was picked to describe the event in the story not a character.

jmd, if you were thinking mainly of the last paragraph in arriving at your answer than you're on the right track to what I'm looking for. If you take the rest into account you'll have it pretty soon. 


jmd  10 Jan 2004 
XXI the World? 


MattDouglas  10 Jan 2004 
Nope. But I think you're thinking's on the right track.
I'm interested in why you picked what you did.
That goes for everyone else too; I learn more that way. 


jmd  10 Jan 2004 
Arithon appears to have vanquished a trial - hence triumphant (VII). The only person to be bale to do that also has the potential for much, and into who the sorcerer can see a whole man with greater potence and potential than he himself seems to realise - hence XXI.

But as it is neither of these, I'm a little stumped.

Maybe, defeating death itself, he becomes it? Or having the audacity to challenge the Sorcercer: XV? 


MattDouglas  10 Jan 2004 
jmd, yes he has overcome a trial, and yes he is showing incredible potential.
But I'm not refering to the Sorcerer Davien who's trial he has overcome, hence not XV the Devil. Besides, I've always seen the Devil in tarot as being kinda like Pan, whereas Davien's character is more like Loki.
You are barking up the right tree however by seeing Arithon as the hero, and looking for what part of the hero myth this part of the story correlates with. 


jmd  10 Jan 2004 
well, my final try for the evening then:

XI Strength!? 


MattDouglas  10 Jan 2004 
Not what I was thinkin of.
In Strength the woman has the lion pretty tamed; Arithon is defiant of such.
My final response for the night too. 


gloria  10 Jan 2004 
I canít give any specific reason Matt why I chose King/Swords. Just a feeling I suppose. Certain words leaping out and all that. To be honest I just couldnít get my head round it.
However, I have every faith that JMD will crack it! :) 


jmd  11 Jan 2004 
gloria and others, please do not give up...

I'm fumbling in the shades...

Given the overall context, how about X the Wheel of Fortune?

Seems like both characters, and others insinuated, are both at the mercy of Fortune's fate, but also that a character may ascend beyond his own assumed limits... 


MattDouglas  11 Jan 2004 
Not it yet.

In the series, Davien is part of a group of now immortal sorcerers who have been summoned to the planet by the guardian spirits of dragons who formerly inhibited the planet, and they have compacted the Fellowship Sorcerers to oversee the planet, but are bound under a no interference rule. Arithon is a successor to a Highkingship who are humans that are the liasons between the fey creatures who inhabit the land and men. So yes, both are burdened under a duty. Davien is a renegade from the Fellowship; he can't break the compact but he can and does bend the hell out of it. Arithon's binding is more through duty and a sense of guilt, but he isn't geas bound. Both are trying to evade such burdens, and have succeeded in going above and beyond.

I'm looking for the card signifying the above and beyond, not the limitation. 


jmd  11 Jan 2004 
In the sense of the above and beyond, without the limits, I would suggest:

XVII the Star?

She also brings both the Magic of Isis, and the naked Truth which each is bound to partake off...

(I find the language of the quote a little difficult to follow - so thanks for some of the background info to the book) 


Mystic Zyl  11 Jan 2004 
Magician 


MattDouglas  11 Jan 2004 
Still aint got it.

Gloria, i agree with jmd. Don't give up. Yes, jmd had done most of the work, but I think he knows that he's smart enough that if he doesn't get the answer first, he'll win another game soon enough. 


jmd  12 Jan 2004 
It's getting to that stage, I think, that a list of past suggestions may be useful (at least to me) so here goes.

(Mystic Zyl, I thought I had suggested the Magician earlier, but now realise I hadn't! - it would have seemed a likely possibility to me too ;))

Answers already suggested...
    Court Cards:

  • King of Wands;
  • King of Swords;

    Major Arcana:
  • I the Magician;
  • IIII the Emperor;
  • VII the Chariot;
  • XI Strength;
  • XV the Devil;
  • XVII the Star;
  • XXI the World


That's it for now...

next suggestion:

Given the ways in which he has to make various judgements, and seemingly overcomes death, how about:

XX Judgement?

it seems to provide images which link both to the extra-terrestrial world (Angel) and the internment of incarnation and the current world... 


MattDouglas  12 Jan 2004 
jmd, you're gettin warmer.... 


jmd  12 Jan 2004 
Excuse the 'rewriting', but I thought I'd try to write the quote in a way which makes better sense to me - I include it here for your comments in case I have 'misread' it and for the convenience of others (I of course suggest reading the original quote in MattDouglas's opening post...)

    'I could sit, fully clothed, with my weapons replaced in their sheaths,' Arithon remarked, too exhausted for his temper to flare.

    'Is it awkward that I refused the convenience of death?"

    Davien showed evil delight. 'Do you know you are the only man to master the trial of the maze who also had the audacity to challenge me? For myself, I would sit entranced at your feet, sword or not. I have full respect for your outrage. It's your talent that's frankly unsettling.'

    Arithon lost his breath, taken aback.

    The Sorcerer's laughter rang out 'Oh, my wild falcon! Can you fly, and not know. You are probably the most gifted individual ever to attempt to influence of the Fellowship of Seven.' Perversely confounding that blistering sarcasm, Davien raised a congenial foot and slid the felt hassock toward Arithon.

    'What does that signify?' Far from relaxed, Arithon conceded and sat.

    'To the Fellowship? Endowed as you are, they would never dare approach you... You have the quality no teaching can bridle. Men call it arrogance. Koriathian see pride. But a Sorcerer looks deeper. What you have is an unequivocal self-honesty rooted in a poet's perception.'
OK... how about:
    the Fool?
 


MattDouglas  12 Jan 2004 
Nope.

You have the idea , but you haven't gotten quite the right card. Look through the cards for some literal clues. 


jmd  12 Jan 2004 
...well, in terms of imagery, given that she is seated, may be regarded as arrogant, and has the eagle, how about:

III the Empress?

(I can only make it fit by a stretch, but can see how... though I'm really not confident at all here!) 


jmd  12 Jan 2004 
Here is an updated list of predominantly my own posts which have totally missed the mark :)

Answers already suggested...
    Court Cards:

  • King of Wands;
  • King of Swords;

    Major Arcana:
  • I the Magician;
  • IIII the Emperor;
  • VII the Chariot;
  • XI Strength;
  • XV the Devil;
  • XVII the Star;
  • XX Judgement;
  • XXI the World;
  • the Fool


That's all for now...

It's obviously meant for someone else to figure out ... but let me have another attempt :)
__________
...a further little re-writing :):

    'I could sit with my weapons sheathed,' Arithon remarked, too exhausted for his temper to flare.

    'Is it awkward that I refused death?'

    Davien showed evil delight. 'You are the only man to pass the trial and have the audacity to challenge me. I would sit entranced at your feet, sword or not. I have full respect for your outrage. It's your talent that's frankly unsettling.'

    Arithon lost his breath, taken aback.

    The Sorcerer's laughter rang out 'Oh, my wild falcon! Can you fly, and not know. You are probably the most gifted individual ever.' Perversely confounding the sarcasm, Davien slid a hassock toward Arithon.

    'What do you mean?' Far from relaxed, Arithon sat.

    'Endowed as you are, they would never dare approach you... You have arrogance and pride. But a Sorcerer looks deeper. What you have is an unequivocal self-honesty rooted in a poet's perception.'
__________

OK... how about - for a final attempt this evening:
    XVIIII the Sun (RWCS version)?
 


Mystic Zyl  12 Jan 2004 
Hierophant, sounds like a conversation of mentoring and developing talents. 


MattDouglas  12 Jan 2004 
Congrats jmd!!!!!!!

You got it!

It's The Sun!!!!!!

Arithon has indeed overcome a trial, as you eluded to earlier. What is in the book is that Davien's trial is a "maze" where people going through have to relive every decision they've made from the viewpoint of all effected. So if you action has at all led to someone's harm (and Arithon has has to command armies against other armies) you have to relive their suffering. In the hero's journey the Moon is the dangerous return. Also, the Moon is symbolized by Pisces which is a destroyer of boundaries, and certainly the boundaries are gone when he's living someone else's experience. However, he is the first person who has made it through without slowly dying from being paralyzed by insanity. And now he is reborn and shining; hence The Sun. Before entering much of Arithon's magical ability was blocked due to his using it in a destructive way previously, and so his abilities have been blocked by remorse. What was latent (Moon), he is now in full power of (Sun). And now he can use it to heal others and the land (Judgment, but he hasn't done that yet).
Also there are a few literal clues to the card in the passage. "I could sit, fully clothed..." Though he is covered by a blanket, he is naked underneath, just like the child on the horse. Also, "Yours, the one quality no teaching can bridle." I directed you toward the last paragraph when you guessed the Chariot, since the sphinxes aren't bridled either. That was the part of it I was referring to. The horse in The Sun isn't bridled either.

Over to you, jmd!!!!!!!! 


jmd  12 Jan 2004 
Thanks MattDouglas.

I must admit that I had been considering the quote in general, and that with regards to imagery the Rider/Waite/Colman-Smith version only came into my mind as I tried to consider what you have in the past posted...

Great to have one's thinking stretched at times :)

...now to go and find another quote }) 


The Lit. Quote (Jan 8) - Solved thread was originally posted on 08 Jan 2004 in the Tarot Games & Fun board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Games & Fun, or read more archived threads.

 
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