Literary Quote (Jan. 14)- Solved

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Diana	14 Jan 2004
When one past thought has ceased and a future thought has not yet risen, in that gap, in between, isn't there a consciousness of the present moment; fresh, virgin, unaltered by even a hair's breadth of concept, a luminous, naked awareness? The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, Sogyal Rinpoche

Major Tom	14 Jan 2004
Judgement?

gloria	14 Jan 2004
High Priestess?

Jewel-ry	14 Jan 2004
The Empress, because in the Marseilles she looks forward and because she represents intelligence and new creation. J :)

Diana	14 Jan 2004
Nope, nope and nope. All make sense though. Major Tom gets the highest mark. spoonbender: My cyber-antennas started twitching - I bet you have been hovering over this thread. (Only kidding.... I saw you in "Who's On-Line" - lol - ). Even though I've changed my signature, we are still cyber-siblings so don't let that scare you! :D

Major Tom	14 Jan 2004
Ah, then it must be the World. ;)

gloria	14 Jan 2004
Enlightenment, understanding...The World?

Kaz	14 Jan 2004
hanged man

Diana	14 Jan 2004
Nope to the World. Nope to the World. And nope to the Hanged Man.

Jewel-ry	14 Jan 2004
Now, now Diana, whats nope!! Ace Swords J :)

Diana	14 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel-ry Now, now Diana, whats nope!! Ace Swords Nay to the Ace of Swords. :D

firemaiden	14 Jan 2004
two of swords?

Dark Eyes	14 Jan 2004
Death??????? :confused:

Diana	14 Jan 2004
Nay to the Two of Swords. Nay to Death..... However, I think Death is an excellent choice. I thought it would have been one of the first cards guessed. Dark Eyes gets more points than Major Tom for his Judgement (sorry Major Tom!)

ros	14 Jan 2004
The Fool "in the gap"

MattDouglas	14 Jan 2004
The Star... Old thoughts have ceased (Tower), and new thought have not yet risen( reflections off the Moon, espwcially with the Moon representing Pisces which dissolve the boundaries so nothings quite so simple and pure) In between is left the Star a simple, pure point of light, symbolized by Aquarius (fixed air, no other elements, no pollutants, etc).

CreativeFire	14 Jan 2004
How about the Ten of Swords ... A very graphic image of something ended - however in the distance the dawn is breaking, as though realisation is emerging in consciousness. Providing an opportunity for something real and truthful (naked awareness) to grow in the place of the past thought. CreativeFire

Dark Eyes	15 Jan 2004
Thanks Diana for your confidence even though my guess was wrong !! My next choice would have been the same as creativefire.... 10 of swords. So now, my next guess would be..... The Moon Subconscious thought , that in between time where one is not sure of the next thought but the last one has passed by. One can be clearly a genius thought, the other madness, I think the moon could possibly describe the period between the two extremes. The uncertainty between two thoughts, though in actual fact... the truth and a glimpse of clarity if one is aware and receptive to it. Does that make sense?? :D Hmmmm.... I think I have some of the moon in me... madness :D :D :D I'm probably a million miles off with this one, but I'll give it a go anyway.

Diana	15 Jan 2004
The Fool. What a wonderful choice! :) Nein. The Star. Interesting.... can't say why though (might be giving a clue). Non. The 10 of Swords. Creativefire: I do not go along with the Rider Waite and clones interpretation of the 10 of Swords - if you did a search with 10 of Swords and my name, you will see that this Rider Waite picture really gets my goat as I find it quite illogical (understatement, but I need to stay polite on the forums :D ). So I have to say Niet to your choice. The Moon. Uh-uh. (Which means no as well.)

Major Tom	15 Jan 2004
This is a tough one Diana. Justice?

Diana	15 Jan 2004
Again Major Tom, you are very much in the thick of it all. But it's not Justice. For those who have a Tarot of Marseille, you may now take out your deck and plunge into the cards as if you were an actor on a stage. For those who don't, :( just continue concentrating hard on the quote itself.

Lady Mary	15 Jan 2004
Los Enamorados?

MattDouglas	15 Jan 2004
From the artwork, I'd say... the Wheel of Fortune. The figures are actuallty attached to the wheel, which lloks kinda like a ferris wheel, somethings always up and somethings always down. But when it's paused (or freezeframed) the apparent arrest of motion directs our immediate attention to the center where we see the ups and down are all the results of one force, one motion.

Major Tom	15 Jan 2004
Is it the 8 of Swords?

Dark Eyes	15 Jan 2004
Could it be the sun? That clear and precise feeling that all is well if even for just a moment in time???... Dark Eyes :)

Diana	15 Jan 2004
None of the above. Only a few more dozen cards to go.

MattDouglas	15 Jan 2004
Just from the artwork alone..... Ace of Coins.

Kissa	15 Jan 2004
The Sun K.

spoonbender	15 Jan 2004
Quote: spoonbender: My cyber-antennas started twitching - I bet you have been hovering over this thread. (Only kidding.... I saw you in "Who's On-Line" - lol - ). Even though I've changed my signature, we are still cyber-siblings so don't let that scare you! :laugh:! That wasn't what scared me, it's the quote! Very very difficult... I'll go with the... 3 of Swords! I know, I know, maybe it sounds stupid, but if you look at the card in le Tarot de Marseille, the quote seems to fit!

Mystic Zyl	15 Jan 2004
2 of swords

Diana	15 Jan 2004
Almost all the cards you have chosen fit. And spoonbender, I can see what you mean when you look at the Three of Swords. But it's none of these. If you want a clue, please tell me.

spoonbender	15 Jan 2004
I made a list of all the cards that have been wrong so far. I have to go to sleep now, but maybe this will be of some help to someone... High Priestess The Empress The Lovers Justice The Wheel of Fortune Hanged man Death The Star The Moon The Sun Judgement The World The Fool Ace of Swords 2 of Swords 3 of Swords 8 of Swords 10 of Swords Ace of Coins

Dark Eyes	15 Jan 2004
I am baffled Diana, but I love the feeling of the quote. I am still thinking, thinking, thinking.....................? I go with........... 4 of swords.....? :confused: There seems to be a time of reflection, contemplation and rest between worlds in this card.... I hope it hasn't already been said !

Mystic Zyl	15 Jan 2004
7 of Pentacles

Diana	15 Jan 2004
No again. Okay, looking at the pictures doesn't work. Go through in your mind the meanings of the cards - this time forgetting the pictures. Just think of the meanings of the cards. One by one..... slowly and contemplatively. But get those pictures out of your mind. Gosh.... I hope I'm not leading you on a wild goose-chase or something. This card LEAPT out at me when I read this quote and none of the others did. Only Dead Star's "Death" guess stuck around for a while before bowing down to the card I chose.

CreativeFire	15 Jan 2004
Okay, another try.... The Page of Swords can represent new and as yet unformed ideas - in order to learn, it is necessary to experiment with thoughts and concepts - an important stage to be passed through before attaining more profound levels of interaction.... CreativeFire

Mystic Zyl	15 Jan 2004
knight of swords

Dark Eyes	15 Jan 2004
O.K. Could it be the Devil..... ? Where we are encouraged to let go of our inhibitions and there could be that one minute space of time where we feel totally free.... ? D.E. })

Major Tom	16 Jan 2004
I think my friend Diana wins this game. There have been more than 20 guesses. :) My opinion is that Diana should just tell us so we can all groan and say "of course". :laugh:

Black dragon	16 Jan 2004
I'll thing i'll just wack a quick guess in before the answer is given, since i havn't had the chance to guess before, (mainly due to mass drunkeness stopping ability to use a computer.) But i would of guessed "Temperance" coz thats got a nice bit like the calm in the middle of a hurrican, and sounds a lot like the break in between thoughts. Black Dragon

jmd	16 Jan 2004
Thanks for that list, spoonbender... having been away a couple of days, it makes it easier to read the list than try and figure out all the suggestions thus far... and a difficult one, this one... I too would have suggested some which have already gone... let's see: When one past thought has ceased and a future thought has not yet risen, in that gap, in between, isn't there a consciousness of the present moment; fresh, virgin, unaltered by even a hair's breadth of concept, a luminous, naked awareness? A luminous naked awareness of the radiant present... how about... no...already suggested. In between the thought just gone and the thought about to come... how about, looking at things from a different perspective, between that which has gone and that which is to come - and illuminated from initiation - ... nooo, that's gone too! Oh merde... How about the Emperor, for he needs to ever be so mindful... and cut the crap.

jmd	16 Jan 2004
errrr..... can I change my mind? How about the Angel of Time? XIIII Temperance?

Jewel-ry	16 Jan 2004
Hermit? J :)

Diana	16 Jan 2004
LOL! Not yet. :D :D I wonder if I should do these clues.... even spoonbender has abandoned my wavelength. Do you give up?

spoonbender	16 Jan 2004
Diana, too bad I'm out of your wave-length - have been to school, that's probably why :). This is an updated list: High Priestess The Empress (The Emperor) The Lovers Justice The Hermit The Wheel of Fortune Hanged man Death Temperance The Devil The Star The Moon The Sun Judgement The World The Fool Ace of Swords 2 of Swords 3 of Swords 4 of Swords 8 of Swords 10 of Swords Page of Swords Knight of Swords Ace of Coins 7 of Coins I don't want to give up yet! Maybe you can give another hint, Diana?

Diana	16 Jan 2004
Quote: Maybe you can give another hint, Diana? I can't give you another hint. Because I haven't given one yet. "Take some more tea," the March Hare said to Alice, very earnestly. "I've had nothing yet," Alice replied in an offended tone, "so I can't take more." "You mean you can't take less," said the Hatter: "it's very easy to take more than nothing." (The above is not a clue by the way, nor a new literary Quote. Please stick to the original one.) Okay, so looking at the cards doesn't work. Not looking at them doesn't work either. What to do? What could help you get out of this predicament? (The above is a clue, by the way.)

Major Tom	16 Jan 2004
Ok then, another go? ;) Is it the 2 of Wands?

Diana	16 Jan 2004
You're either all going to kill yourselves when you finally guess and say: "But of course.... how very very obvious! What a genius Diana is." Or else you're going to say: "This woman should be reported to a Moderator, because she knows nothing about Tarot and it is quite obvious that she is a fake, a charlatan, and a first class scalawag tarologue". 2 of Wands? That's a lovely card. And it's one of the nicest in Major Tom's Tarot deck. But it's not the answer. :(

Jewel-ry	16 Jan 2004
7 cups? I'm grabbing at straws though. Something to do with fantasy, choices, reality? J :)

spoonbender	16 Jan 2004
Quote: (The above is a clue, by the way.) Good that you said so, wasn't very obvious ;). I said I wouldn't give up, so I'm gonna continue guessing. I guess the... Bateleur!

Mystic Zyl	16 Jan 2004
Hierophant will help get me out of my predicament.

ros	16 Jan 2004
6 of coins LOL

Diana	16 Jan 2004
This is a very Fun thread. :) No to the above guesses. When one past thought has ceased and a future thought has not yet risen, in that gap, in between, isn't there a consciousness of the present moment; fresh, virgin, unaltered by even a hair's breadth of concept, a luminous, naked awareness? I swear on my favourite Marseille deck that there is a card that provides this LUMINOUS awareness. The nakedness is symbolic.

spoonbender	16 Jan 2004
*Sigh* The reason I said le Bateleur, was because you said in that one reply: "You'll either think I'm a genius, or a charlatan." I thought that was a hidden clue, but I guess it wasn't :D! Perhaps the Ace of Wands? That card is luminous... :confused: If that isn't right (and I'm pretty sure it isn't), feel free to give another hint :)... Warm regards, Spoonbender

Kissa	16 Jan 2004
The Tower. Illumination, revelation, sudden awareness. Hit by the light. k.

spoonbender	16 Jan 2004
Ooh, Kissa, I think you nailed it with the Tower! Now why didn't I think of that? Oh well... Spoonbender

Diana	16 Jan 2004
XVI cheers for Kissa!!!!!! THE TOWER IT IS. :) :) :) :) :) Elsewhere in Sogyal Rinpoche's book, he says this: ***Imagine that you come home one day after work to find your door smashed open, hanging on its hinges. You have been robbed. You go inside and find that everything you own has vanished. For a moment you are paralyzed with shock, and in despair you frantically go through the mental process of trying to recreate what is gone. It hits you: You've lost everything. Your restless, agitated mind is then stunned and thoughts subside. And there's a sudden, deep stillness, almost an experience of bliss. No more struggle, no more effort, because both are hopeless. Now you just have to give up; you have no choice. So one moment you have lost something precious, and then, in the very next moment, you find your mind is resting in a deep state of peace. When this kind of experience occurs, do not immediately rush to find solutions. Remain for a while in that state of peace. Allow it to be a gap. And if you really rest in that gap, looking into the mind, you will catch a glimpse of the deathless nature of the enlightened mind.*** Kissa: it's over to you. (P.S. Don't forget that this card is known in French, not as the Tower, but the Maison-Dieu. The House of God.)

Diana	16 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by spoonbender Ooh, Kissa, I think you nailed it with the Tower! Now why didn't I think of that? It's my fault, spoonbender. Because I changed my signature. Perhaps you could also go and find a Calvin and Hobbes quote (I changed it again just now) and then next time you'll guess it first go. :laugh:

Kissa	16 Jan 2004
Hi Diana, Great that I won (i never win anything ;) ) Is the picture attached from the Camoin Jodorowksy? If it is, it looks better than I remembered ... Kissa

Diana	16 Jan 2004
Kissa! Maybe this means that your luck is starting to turn. Go and buy a lottery ticket tomorrow! Yes, it's the Camoin. I traded my Camoin but I downloaded the picture from Google Images.

spoonbender	16 Jan 2004
Quote: It's my fault, spoonbender. Because I changed my signature. Perhaps you could also go and find a Calvin and Hobbes quote (I changed it again just now) and then next time you'll guess it first go. That must be it, then, Diana :laugh:! Next time I'll go find an appropriate signature (great one you chose by the way). Congratulations, Kissa! Looking forward to your literature clue! Warm regards, Spoonbender

Mystic Zyl	16 Jan 2004
The Tower? You have got to be joking........

Diana	16 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mystic Zyl The Tower? You have got to be joking........ Oh no! I'm not joking. :) The Tower was changed by Arthur Waite, from a depiction of a card of liberation, freedom and illumination.... into something dire and depressing. I suppose you saw the card I attached. A French tarologue, Claude Vieux, speaks of this card thus (and I translate): "From this card emerges a joyous atmosphere like a festive explosion, where tongues of fire burst open the roofing and inebriate the two people miraculously in a state of weightlessness."

gloria	17 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Remain for a while in that state of peace. Allow it to be a gap. And if you really rest in that gap, looking into the mind, you will catch a glimpse of the deathless nature of the enlightened mind. With respect Diana..I don't think my mind would be capable of resting in a state of peace if I were to have to face a catastrophe such as this! G.

jmd	17 Jan 2004
There is very much a way which I see very well how the XVI Tower fits... but I agree that it is not in the way usually thought... yet, if I may, though this may better be for a thread in Talking Tarot, let me add some small points. If any of you have been bungy jumping, or been involved in an accident (same thing, really :)), or jumped out of an aeroplane (preferably with a parachute attached), then there is very much a sense in which the immediacy of the eternal present is felt - for most of us, it is likely to occur in such so-difficult-to-capture moments, between the past which has just gone, and the so-near future which is about to hit. In that 'hair's breadth', that inalienated naked awareness of present-hood seems to flash, seems to open, forever virgin, for it is neither penetrated nor filled by either the wealth of the past, nor the promise of the future... What better way to capture that moment... I'll repeat that word, for it is one we read and pass on all too quickly, that moment, than by a fall in raptured height... Well worth further reflections... and how wonderful this 'games' Forum.

firemaiden	17 Jan 2004
What wonderful reflections, I've never thought about it that way, but now I get it. Perhaps now is a good time to plug my thread: but, but, but... what if the Tower isn't supposed to crumble? -- discussion of Tower as enlightenment...

gloria	17 Jan 2004
Well rather than than testing your theory on the bungy-jump JMD....I'll take your word for it!! :)

Mystic Zyl	19 Jan 2004
I hope no one has taken this game seriously.

Diana	19 Jan 2004
Mystic Zyl: What is the Tower for you then? Or rather, what about this quote does not fit in with one of the myriad meanings for this card?

Mystic Zyl	19 Jan 2004
The Tower is a revelation, awake up call, a feeling of loss, a sudden change which provokes numerous thoughts and changes in ones life. I cannot accept what you say the Tower is; it does not make sense.

Diana	19 Jan 2004
Okay. But did you read the quote from Sogyal Rinpoche (towards the end of the thread?) which explains what a Tower situation can give us a glimpse of?

Mystic Zyl	19 Jan 2004
A glimpse would only be thought provoking as the tower. I feel the paragraph spoke more of innocence. The tower does not leave you unaltered.

Mystic Zyl	19 Jan 2004
The Tower is a Major Arcana card depicting major changes....the paragraph in question should have been a minor as this a somewhat everyday occurrence.

Diana	19 Jan 2004
"a glimpse of the deathless nature of the enlightened mind" would certainly leave me altered forever. I think it would blow my mind and I doubt I would ever be the same again. It is interesting what you say that the Minor Arcana are everyday occurrences. I remember hearing that said somewhere on the forums before, possibly more than once. Would be an interesting thread for Using Tarot Cards. I'd be curious to see why people think this is so.

Kiama	25 Jan 2004
A quick reminder to all that within the Tarot world lie many diverse opinions and views. What one person sees in a card, another may not. Consequently, we should be open to all views and accept that others hold them. Blessings to all, and apologies for not getting here sooner. Kiama

gloria	26 Jan 2004
Just to make it clear...that it was Sogyal Rinpoche's words I had difficulty in understanding.

Mystic Zyl	26 Jan 2004
With all due respect.......this written paragraph in no way describes the tower and anyone that reads cards with any accuracy will concur. I have the right to disagree. Look at how long it took to solve this; at the end people were just stabbing in the dark without logic. Sorry if it offends anyones ego, but this game has a purpose for me and it is learning. However learning the correct facts is key here. Not to bully someone it to your way of thinking. I have an extensive library of books dedicated to tarot and have read many authors interpretations, most of whom seem to agree with one another. In none of my 82 books and years of experience will I learn something that is inaccurate, as I research my sources of information. Information is as only as good as the source. Diana, you have the right to proclaim it is the tower, but I feel I have the right to say it is not. When you make a post on this site, you take the risk that people will not agree with you, only a few may have the courage to voice it outright. You would be surprised at how many others wrote me an email and one Pmed me to chat about this. I sure hope this situation is close to coming to an end.

Kissa	26 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mystic Zyl In none of my 82 books and years of experience will I learn something that is inaccurate, as I research my sources of information. Information is as only as good as the source. Diana, you have the right to proclaim it is the tower, but I feel I have the right to say it is not. Hi Mystic, as the one who "solved" this, i take the right to jump in the battle. I can assure you that i was not "stabbing in the dark without logic" (come on, you should know me better, i'm the queen of logics ;) ). I took my book about Tarot de Marseille, the one Diana recommended me and many others as we showed some interest in her passion: The Marseilles Tarot. I suspected it might be the Tower but as I read what the book said, it became very clear. I am quite tired this evening and will not try to translate the paragraph that helped me solving the mystery. It is nevertheless the one about "La foudre et l'éclair" p135 of Carole Sédillot's brilliant "Ombres et Lumières du Tarot". (I would be very thankful if a native english speaker who owns this book could translate it as i am afraid not to do it properly). There is certainly a thread in the Historical section discussing about the Tower. Regards, Kissa

Kiama	26 Jan 2004
Mystic Zyl, Your are correct when you say you have every right to disagree with another's viewpoint of a card. Not everybody can agree all the time: if they did, this would be a pretty boring forum! ;) You also have the right to say, when you think it is necessary, that you disagree with what somebody has said. However, please do this in a courteous manner, as per the Forum Guidelines. You can state that you disagree, and you can say why you do, but please say it in a courteous way that is not likely to cause offence. Now, back to topic... :D I found Diana's new take on the Tower card very interesting. I have certainly heard it called Liberation: after all, when the 'tower' is destroyed, we are liberated from it, we are free to build. But I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong Diana, that the quote she used referred to that lull that occurs just after the tower has been destroyed, and just before anything else has started to be built on the clear foundations... I like that feeling. When you realise you are free of what was holding you back, and you just stop to take that breath of free, fresh air, before moving on and doing something with it. :D True, it is not always what the Tower card represents: often it represents something more painful and destructive. But sometimes I do see it in a reading as referring to that 'free breath of air'. Blessings, Kiama

Diana	27 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mystic Zyl When you make a post on this site, you take the risk that people will not agree with you, only a few may have the courage to voice it outright. You would be surprised at how many others wrote me an email and one Pmed me to chat about this. I sure hope this situation is close to coming to an end. Goodness. I don't mind your telling me you don't agree. On the contrary!!! What's the point of having a discussion forum if we can't discuss our different takes on cards. Pity the Private PMs and E-mails were not brought up on the forum itself. Perhaps in the Using Tarot Cards section. Would have made for a very interesting debate which would have probably benefited the whole forum, and not just a few people in private. If you felt I was bullying you into accepting my understanding of one of the many facets of the Tower cards, I beg you to show me where this bullying takes place. I look forward to winning another Literary Quote in order to start a new game. :)

Diana	27 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama But I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong Diana, that the quote she used referred to that lull that occurs just after the tower has been destroyed, and just before anything else has started to be built on the clear foundations... That's kind of it, Kiama. There are three main phases to the Tower experience. The build-up (which if we are alert, we can sense, but sometimes we are not alert enough); the actual destruction, which can take place in a split second or can take months, even years to lifetimes to occur (Time dimensions are strange phenomenons); and then there's that Realisation of what has happened. (One sometimes doesn't realise the Tower experience, until it is actually over.) The Lull is very healing.... if one is aware of it and takes advantage of it. For if we take advantage of it, when we go on to the next Arcanum, we will know which Star to Follow. ;) (and not follow the wrong one.)

Aoife	27 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mystic Zyl ......this game has a purpose for me and it is learning. However learning the correct facts is key here...... I have an extensive library of books dedicated to tarot and have read many authors interpretations, most of whom seem to agree with one another. In none of my 82 books and years of experience will I learn something that is inaccurate, as I research my sources of information. Information is as only as good as the source. Hi Mystic Zyl, I too find value in books, in the research and opinions of others. I also regard my involvement with tarot as a lifelong learning process, drawing from a variety of sources, not least my intuition. I have however found particular value in learning about the Marseille tarot. I really would commend the contents of the History and Iconography forum to you..... such a wonderful source of fact, opinion and insight! I am sure as a seeker you would find immense interest and exciting new enlightenment to illuminate your tarot journey. I am sure like many of us, you may find it a steep learning curve but I can assure you it is well worth the effort!

The Literary Quote (Jan. 14)- Solved thread was originally posted on 14 Jan 2004 in the Tarot Games & Fun board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Games & Fun, or read more archived threads.