Literature Clue [2nd March] - Solved

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jmd	02 Mar 2004
from book V of the History by Herodotus: At Sparta, Anaxandridas the son of Leo was no longer king: he had died, and his son Cleomenes had mounted the throne, not however by right of merit, but of birth. Anaxandridas took to wife his own sister's daughter, and was tenderly attached to her; but no children came from the marriage. Hereupon the Ephors called him before them, and said- "If thou hast no care for thine own self, nevertheless we cannot allow this, nor suffer the race of Eurysthenes to die out from among us. Come then, as thy present wife bears thee no children, put her away, and wed another. So wilt thou do what is well-pleasing to the Spartans." Anaxandridas however refused to do as they required, and said it was no good advice the Ephors gave, to bid him put away his wife when she had done no wrong, and take to himself another. He therefore declined to obey them. Then the Ephors and Elders took counsel together, and laid this proposal before the king:- "Since thou art so fond, as we see thee to be, of thy present wife, do what we now advise, and gainsay us not, lest the Spartans make some unwonted decree concerning thee. We ask thee not now to put away thy wife to whom thou art married- give her still the same love and honour as ever- but take thee another wife beside, who may bear thee children." When he heard this offer, Anaxandridas gave way- and henceforth he lived with two wives in two separate houses, quite against all Spartan custom. In a short time, the wife whom he had last married bore him a son, who received the name of Cleomenes; and so the heir to the throne was brought into the world by her. After this, the first wife also, who in time past had been barren, by some strange chance conceived, and came to be with child. Then the friends of the second wife, when they heard a rumour of the truth, made a great stir, and said it was a false boast, and she meant, they were sure, to bring forward as her own a supposititious child. So they raised an outcry against her; and therefore, when her full time was come, the Ephors, who were themselves incredulous, sat round her bed, and kept a strict watch on the labour. At this time then she bore Dorieus, and after him, quickly, Leonidas, and after him, again quickly, Cleombrotus. Some even say that Leonidas and Cleombrotus were twins. On the other hand, the second wife, the mother of Cleomenes (who was a daughter of Prinetadas, the son of Demarmenus), never gave birth to a second child.

Dark Eyes	03 Mar 2004
It's probably a wild and way out guess, but could it be the lovers.... ? :D

jmd	03 Mar 2004
To be quite frank, I chose that paragraph, and then had various possibilities which came to me as I reflected on the quote. One of these was indeed the Lovers, especially as here we have a man between, so to speak, two wives. For a variety of reasons, this was not the card I slowly narrowed down, though one of the early ones which was somewhat prominant. I eventually chose another: for one, though he does indeed make a decision, his decision is not of the 'either/or', but rather accepting an inclusive suggestion - and one which seeks to have the good of the progeny in mind. It is a difficult quote - or at least I found it so...

Star Spirit	03 Mar 2004
Justice?

Dark Eyes	03 Mar 2004
It is indeed a difficult quote, it twists and turns a bit. Sometimes you get a hint of a card, then it changes to another. Is the empress in the running at all............ :confused: :joke:

ncefafn	03 Mar 2004
Since Justice has already been taken, how about Temperance -- mixing in a little of this, a little of that.

gloria	03 Mar 2004
I was thinking about The Chariot. Its ruler Cancer has associations with family and family roots. This card could show the choice he has had to make to nurture and protect the ‘family line.’ (What about Strength!!!!) :D

mercenary30	03 Mar 2004
Five of Swords?

jmd	04 Mar 2004
it has taken me some time to get back to the thread... other tasks called... So far, no-one has suggested the card I settled on. I can see how the concept of Justitia, in especially its ancient Greek form, Dike, or its more social sense, fits the overall quote well... however, I probably focussed more on the characters in the quote than on the general theme. As Dark Eyes mentions, the quote twists and turns, and various images arise in reflection. The Empress I had also considered in one of these turns, especially as she is often represented as Mother of the next Emperor... but it didn't seem to be the main characteristic of the quote. Temperance fits in in more ways than one, for again its cardinal virtue aspect gives the impression of tempering what needs to be acted out in appropriate ways. But it was not a virtue upon which I eventualy focussed, but the personage. With the Chariot, especially as the Charioteer, would probably make in my reflections a better fit had Cleomenes mounted the throne by his own worthy actions, rather than by his 'mere' birth (incidentally, if I were to make astrological correlations with the Chariot, it would more likely be Gemini than Cancer, ie, Zain - but that is another story...). The Five Swords is certainly suggested by the various to-ing and fro-ing in the considerations of what to do and how to best do it... but again, not the card I settled on. If it helps at all, may I suggest focussing on the last part of the opening sentence: ' [...] Cleomenes had mounted the throne, not however by right of merit, but of birth' From this, the rest in some ways follows...

Star Spirit	04 Mar 2004
This was originally my first guess, but I changed it... Wheel of Fortune?

Dark Eyes	04 Mar 2004
The King of cups.... ? He most probably was heir to the throne and was also a very emotional and loving man who believed in the good of a relationship though he was strong and independent. Perhaps it was he because he would try everything to keep his relationship and love alive before giving in?? And even then, he would do what felt right and honest and true to his character......?

jmd	04 Mar 2004
Getting close indeed... The Wheel of Fortune shows how the events surrounding the person may get him to the top of the wheel - but again, this reflects how the world around the individual may position him at once ascending, reigning or descending, rather than the individual. With the King of Cups, this was indeed my second choice, but decided that more than Love or emotions were at play...

Star Spirit	04 Mar 2004
How about...10 of Pentacles?

ncefafn	04 Mar 2004
Seven of Swords

Dark Eyes	04 Mar 2004
Hmmmmmmmmmmm......................... let me see,................

Dark Eyes	04 Mar 2004
Hmmmmmmmmmmm......................... I have to say the Emperor, it seems the most logical "next guess" for me, though it is probably too obvious a choice. I'lll go with him anyway and hope for the best !!! .......................................;) This is a good one jmd.... :laugh:

jmd	04 Mar 2004
The last two suggestions by Dark Eyes, though not the card, are along the same lines I settled on in my reflections of the quote. The ten Coins, as possibly reflecting a completeness of sovereignty over the social realm, would certainly fit over the whole quote - but again tended to focus more on the individual than the situation. Likewise, the seven Swords, which to me reflects more a sense of the personal effort - though inspired - in his struggling achievement, captures an element of what he goes through, but not as much the character per personage. The Emperor, though obtaining his position from birth, also requires an added dimension to move from King to over-King/Emperor. The quote seems also far more localised than the trans-local aspects which the quote reflects - at least to my reflections... It is a difficult quote - I thought a more difficult one, after the couple of 'easier' ones I have given, would be a pleasant (in the intellectual twisting sense of the term) change :)

Lorem	04 Mar 2004
hmmm... King of Pents??

Dark Eyes	04 Mar 2004
Jmd. I must say this quote has got me thinking seriously, .... I am now going to go with the Ace of cups...., I feel there is an element of a new start or a birth of a new approach for that time in this quote. The fact that he wanted to keep his wife shows the emotional element (cups), the fact that he was allowed to take another wife though against traditition indicates an element of a new idea being accepted and implemented (Ace), and the Ace is a very strong card... He is a very strong and influential man. The Ace I believe shows new beginnings, birth of a new idea etc. etc. Am I way off here jmd.... :D

jmd	05 Mar 2004
No one yet has suggested the one I settled on, though Lorem's King of Coins was also along the right track... The Ace would also certainly fit a new enthronement, but somehow felt that the imaginative picture painted by the chosen quote was more of something that had already occured and to which was given a sense of its background. In the quote, there is a sense in which Herodotus first mentions, in his own unique way 'the king is dead - long live the king': Anaxandridas was no longer king, for he had died, and Cleomenes was now king. The rest of the quote gives some background to the new king's beginnings, and by what right he reigns - by birth, and what kind of birth ('unusual' by Spartan custom), not by 'right of merit'.

Dark Eyes	05 Mar 2004
Oh dear.............................. .........................:confused: How about the hierophant.... he influences what is right, teaches new approaches as well as adhering to the old customs, he could inherit the position I guess........ He may not always be positioned by merit.... I guess.... ? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.................... I'm at a loss now..... ------------------:(

gloria	05 Mar 2004
May I suggest a list may be in order here....:) The Empress The Emperor The Hierophant Lovers The Chariot Strength The Wheel Justice Temperance King/Cups King/Pents 10/Pents 7/Swords 5/Swords Ace/Cups.........

Dark Eyes	05 Mar 2004
Good girl Gloria,.... go girl !!! You are repaying jmd the favour, he is the one that usually does the list thing, it helps in a mega way !! Thanks my friend, I should have thought of it sooner, now we know what we are up against....... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ................... Now.... where do I start..........Hmmmmmmmmmmmm it's a tricky one for sure........... ;)

jmd	05 Mar 2004
Thanks gloria - favour returned :)... I to thought that though the quote was a little difficult, it would get solved somewhat earlier... The Pope/Hierophant does indeed reflect the considered advice offered the former King - was was not the card I settled on to reflect the current reign...

Dark Eyes	05 Mar 2004
Oh Poop, (don't want to swear on the forum), I'm off to bed now to think some more and hope I work it out in my dreams. Good quote jmd, but I bet someone else will guess before I awake. Never mind, I need to get some zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz's, too much red wine has made me sleepy and sluggish. Thanks folks, see you all soon. Gnite.............. yawn......................... ;) Dark eyes.... D. :D

gloria	05 Mar 2004
I go to have a 'stab' at it jmd.....and then you say something that causes me to hold back. I may be way off beam, but shall just blurt it out and say..."How about 9/Pents?"

gloria	05 Mar 2004
Nite-Nite Dark Eyes.

ncefafn	05 Mar 2004
The Fool, because nobody's guessed that yet. Kim

Star Spirit	05 Mar 2004
How about the Devil?

Dark Eyes	05 Mar 2004
G'day all... and good morning and welcome anybody new today..!!! .... And now for a total turn around.... My next guess is....Queen of swords..... not sure why except that the second wife is chosen to give birth, not for her merit. She is possibly not as emotional as the first wife who I would see as the queen of cups. Also, her associates are quite spiteful ....? Whadya say jmd...? ..................................:joke:

jmd	05 Mar 2004
I'm on my way to Tarot Café soonish, so may not get a chance to see other responses for quite some time... ...now to address the suggested cards since last - none of which are the one I considered (says more about me than anyone else!). The nine of Coins would, to my way of thinking, reflect the King's wishes to have his cake and eat it too... in this case metaphorically. The Fool certainly reflects the simple wisdom of solving what appeared to be an unsurmountable problem, and the Devil both the binding experienced by the King to both his lust and social structures. The Queen of Swords, as his mother, certainly makes sense - but took more the quote to explain how he came to be, and what his specific lineage is...

Dark Eyes	05 Mar 2004
Perhaps then.... the king of swords...? His mother, being his fathers neice would be agianst tradition maybe?? therefor there could be an element of conflict and an air of the double edge in the situation...? :D

Rusty Neon	05 Mar 2004
How about XIII The Arcanum without a Name ...

ncefafn	05 Mar 2004
The Magician. If we keep working our way through the 78 cards, one of us will eventually hit it.

Dark Eyes	05 Mar 2004
For sure ncefafn, sooner or later the correct card will emerge in somebody's guess.... ... until then, we must keep guessing !! It is good fun though isn't it, and it really makes us study the cards and their meanings, both obvious and subtle. Also we get to see how others interpret the cards as well, I find that part of it fascinating and helpful.... sometimes very frustrating too. I don't always see the outcome the way the thread poster deciphers it, but that is all part of the game. In th end, we have fun, make friends and learn a lot. We'll keep guessing.... we have to get it soon huh...:)

jmd	06 Mar 2004
If Cleomenes had mounted the throne, not however by right of birth, but of merit (to paraphrase the quote, mutatis mutandis), I would have settled on the King of Swords... but it was rather the reverse: 'not by right of merit, but of birth' - hence I chose another card. Hence, I also did not choose XIII (Death), though there is certainly the important opening of the quote which suggests it, nor the Magician, though various elements, especially social, have to be manipulated...

alsie	06 Mar 2004
I'll go wild and guess at the Page of Coins. In that this can refer to a bit of practical luck coming your way (such as an inherited throne), and it also could represent the inexperience or youth of the new king. This is rather stretching my usual meaning of a page but I'll give it a try :) Alsie

gloria	06 Mar 2004
Queen/Pents?

kwaw	06 Mar 2004
knight/swords? Kwaw

jmd	06 Mar 2004
Glad to see more court cards are being suggested - this must be the longest thread for this game I have had a chance to create - without intent on being this complicated! The Page of Coins would probably fit Cleomenes better prior to his ascent to the throne... and the Knight of Swords I would have chosen to depict his active stance in what may have determined his merit to the position (which, however, we are told he achieved not by merit, but by birth-right). The Queen of Coins I may have chosen for his mother, step-mother - or even, in more likelyhood, grandmother, but not for Cleomenes, grandson of King Leo, and now himself King...

kwaw	06 Mar 2004
Well as Grandson of King Leo (fire sign) and now Knig himself howabout King of Wands? Kwaw

alsie	06 Mar 2004
It has to be the knight of coins right? For his loyalty and reliability. He could be relied on to do his duty even if it fell to him by default. I don't think anyone has said this yet but I'm getting a bit bogged down in all the posts now :laugh: Alsie

jmd	06 Mar 2004
...enfin! Kwaw, with the King of Wands, has it!!! Ascending the throne, Cleomenes is new King. If he had ascended by his actions, I would have personally settled on the King of Swords. After all, Kings are Kings from their actions when they wield the Sword (whether in battle of more symbolically). His father certainly seemed to be a King of Cups. Cleomenes, however, ascended by right of birth, and normally (personally) wands to also suggest ancestry. I tried to give various hints in my replies (about his being King), but probably confused everyone more than clarified :) ...hope Kwaw's clue will be easier than mine !!!

kwaw	07 Mar 2004
Yea and ....oh ******, totally unprepared. Now I am going to have to go away and find a quote. Will try and not take too long:) Kwaw

The Literature Clue [2nd March] - Solved thread was originally posted on 02 Mar 2004 in the Tarot Games & Fun board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Games & Fun, or read more archived threads.