Literature Clue (March 8)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

kwaw	08 Mar 2004
James Joyce was fond of incorporating all sorts of obscure references into his writings. Here is an example from Finnegan's Wake in which he has incorporated a motif from the 16th century Splendour Solis, the alchemical symbolism of which I associate with several cards from which I have chosen one in particular: "Wring out the clothes! Wring in the dew! Godavari, vert the showers! And grant thaya grace! Aman. Will we spread them here now? Ay, we will. Flip ! Spread on your bank and I'll spread mine on mine. Flep! It's what I'm doing. Spread ! It's churning chill. Der went is rising. I'll lay a few stones on the hostel sheets. A man and his bride embraced between them."

ncefafn	08 Mar 2004
Hi, kwaw. Are you using one deck in particular, or just have in mind a generic RWS clone? Kim

kwaw	08 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by ncefafn Hi, kwaw. Are you using one deck in particular, or just have in mind a generic RWS clone? Kim Good question. I was thinking sought of generically, but on thinking about it the associations I am making fit some decks better than others. The RWS fits inasmuch as we allow GD attributions, though Crowley/Harris Thoth deck I think probably fits better or is at least a more obvious fit; the attributions of the Etteilla deck may also fit; and I also associate a lot of the Marseille iconography with alchemical symbolism. So perhaps it is more that I am being 'aecletic' rather than generic in the symbolic associations!? In preparing a few clues, if needed, to the associative path that leads to my chosen card I find I am referencing Crowley/Harris, Etteilla and the Marseille rather than RWS. Kwaw

lionette	08 Mar 2004
hmmm. Is it 2Cups ?

kwaw	08 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lionette hmmm. Is it 2Cups ? An excellent 'guess' lionette. This is certainly among the cards I associate with this quote, I am still not sure whether it is in fact a better fit than the one I finally decided upon. It incorporates symbolic elements of the 'mystic marriage' and the 'alchemical dew', and its astrological attributions [which i tend to use a lot] are also fitting. The 'man and his bride' may bring in the concept of love, and we may note in the RWS the couple are beneath a winged lion's head. One of the names of alchemical dew is the 'green (vert) lion'. In Crowley's deck he makes reference to the alchemical symbolism of the two dolphins. The GD attributions assign it to the decan Venus/Cancer, the sign of the Moon and the exaltation of Jupiter, and Venus is associated with the colour Green. The mystic dew is associated with 'golden rain', according to alchemical texts (eg, Mutus Liber) the mystic dew is best collected in the latter half of April, early part of May [ie, when the sun is in the sign of taurus, ruled by venus]. According to M. Maier in Atalanta fugiens, "The Greeks testify that from gold there fell a fertile rain as the sun lay in the passion of love for Venus. And from Jupiter's brain as Pallas did arise, so gold must also appear like rain in your vessel.....Vulcan seeking to free Jupiter from his headaches with an axe, releases Pallas Athena, the Goddess of Wisdom, from his skull... This birth is celebrated on the island of Rhodes by the festival of the Golden Rain, in which gold coins are scattered."quoted in 'Alchemy and Mysticism' by Alexander Roob. Kwaw

SongDeva	08 Mar 2004
What about the 4 of wands?

kwaw	08 Mar 2004
No...not four of wands.

ncefafn	08 Mar 2004
I'm going to guess the 5 of Cups, and here's why. Joyce writes of a couple, yes, but I feel it's one whose members have reached an unspoken agreement after the rosy dream of infatuation has worn off. When he writes, "Wring out the clothes, wring in the dew," I picture the three cups overturned, the other two still standing. Kim

kwaw	08 Mar 2004
Like your lateral thinking Kim, but no its not the five of cups. In 'Wring out the clothes.Wring in the dew.' Joyce is referencing a picture motif from the Splendour Solis in which women seem to be doing laundry. The metaphor of the transformation as being 'woman and child's' work' is common in alchemy. Sheets are on the grassy banks, not drying but collecting dew. It is the common statement in alchemy literature that the 'prima materia' is ubiquitous, the process mundane. The mystical marriage is often symbolized by the conjunction of the Sun and Moon. Alchemical dew is said to be collected in April/May, alchemical iconagraphy often incorparating a bull [taurus] to symbolize this time of year. In terms of your reference to 'rosy dreams'. A rose is often incorporated as a symbol of the 'mystical dew' in alchemical literature. Based on a pun upon the French 'rosee' and the latin 'ros'. Kwaw

lionette	08 Mar 2004
Hi again, kwaw. Such a challenge! Your reference to Alchemical Wedding makes me think of Crowley's XIV Art.

jmd	09 Mar 2004
How about XVIIII the Sun ?

kwaw	09 Mar 2004
Hi Lionette, JMD No I am not thinking of either 'Art' or 'Sun', though both of course are relevant. Crowley's 'Art' specifically references the 'art' of alchemy. Its traditional name 'temperance' brings into account the virtues. While as I have said the 'dew' is ubiquitous, the process mundane and physical and practical and alchemists are workers of the Earth; outer success depends it is said on the grace of God and reflects ones inner, spiritual transformation, or in Rosicrucian terms reformation. The alchemists spiritual viewpoint is essentially sacramental. They prize, it is said, three virtues above all, Faith in the Divine, in Mankind and Man's self, Hope in the victory over evil, the advancement of Humanity and in a hereafter, and in Charity which means not only relieving the wants of others but tolerance of others faults and errors. It is said they are wise who judge others charitably, strength comes from hope and beauty and trust from faith in the Divine, in our fellow man and ourselves. Dew, also called 'gold rain' or 'green showers' [vert the showers], VITRIOL [v.i.t.r.i.o.l. which in latin means: “visit the interior of the [i]earth[/i] and rectifying will find the hidden stone” Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem] is specifically related to the virtue of charity. In relation to the above correspondence between wisdom and charity, this may relate to what I wrote in regards to Lionettes first post in relating how the birth of wisdom Pallas Athena was celebrated on Rhodes in the festival of the Golden Rain by the scattering (or giving) of gold coins. The Sun is of course one of the symbolic partners in the symbolic representation of the conjunction of the Sun and Moon of the hermetic marriage. And in the Marseille it has those yods which those of an alchemical frame of mind have interpreted as reference to mystic dew. It does not in itself however I feel fully represent the symbolic union or conjuntion of opposites to represent the mystic marriage. Thereagain of course one of the symbols of the Sun is the hexagram which is a symbol of the union of opposites. Kwaw

lionette	09 Mar 2004
VI Disks/Coins/Pentacles ?

kwaw	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lionette VI Disks/Coins/Pentacles ? Lionette has it :) In the RWS deck the emphasis is laid I think on the aspect of charity, the virtue associated in alchemy with Hermetic Dew. I think the Crowley/Harris incorporates more of the symbolism that lead me to equate this card with this quote as I have previously stated. At the centre is a version of the Rose and Cross. It is said by some that the horizontal bar of the cross represents death and the vertical life. Its more general symbolism is a representation of the integration of opposites, the conjuction of heaven and earth, of feminine and masculine, yin and yang. The rose as I have said is a symbol of the mystic dew, but also of love which represent the means of integration of the two. The rose and cross lay at the centre in the position of the Sun in a planetary hexagon, hexagam; another symbol like the cross of the integration of opposites, the mystic marriage. The solar, hexagon imagery is related to the numbering of the card, six. In GD it is attributed to the second decan of Taurus, ruled by the Moon. The mystic dew is said to be collected in late april and may, ie when the Sun is in Taurus, so we have by association the concept of both Sun and Moon in Taurus, that is, in conjunction; another representation of the hermetic marriage. My apologies if my first go at this was a bit obscure. Congratulations Lionette and over to you! Kwaw

ncefafn	09 Mar 2004
One little quibble: The second decan of Taurus is Virgo, and thus ruled by Mercury. Kim

kwaw	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by ncefafn One little quibble: The second decan of Taurus is Virgo, and thus ruled by Mercury. Kim Each sign of the zodiac is 30 degrees. Each sign has three 'decans' of 10 degrees each. These are also called faces, though some would say historically there is some technical differences between the two terms. Each of these decans has a planetary ruler. There are different ways of allocating rulerships, but that based on the Chaldean order is traditional in Western astrology, and is the basis of the GD attribution. Another common method and the one I think you are refering to, is popular in Eastern astrology and though known in western medieval astrology was not very common. It was re-introduced into Western Astrology and made popular by theosophy and has since become very common in modern western astrology. It is that based on elements. In this for example the first decan of Aries is Aries, the second decan is the next fire sign in order, Leo, the third the next fire sign Sagittarius; or the first decan of Taurus is Taurus, 2nd Virgo, 3rd Capricorn, etc. The Chaldean order which is the basis of the GD attributions is the order used in planetary hours and is the basis for the planetary associated names of the days of the week. The Chaldean order is Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon. If you start with the first hour of Saturday, Ruled by Saturn. Each consecutive hour is followed by the planet following, second to Jupiter, third to Mars, fourth to Sun, fifth to Venus, sixth to Mercury, seventh to Moon. The eigth we start again with Saturn, ninth Jupiter, etc. The 24th hour of Saturday will thus be Mars, and the first hour of Sunday the next in order, the Sun; the 24th hour of Sunday will be Mercury, and the first hour of Monday the next in order the Moon, etc. Tables of these planetary hours are common in medieval grimoires, especially in those of the Solomonic cycle. The chaldean order is also the basis of the decan rulerships in traditional western astrology, so the consecutive sign decans also correspond to days of the week. The first decan of Aries is ruled by Mars, the 2nd the next in order the Sun, 3rd, Venus, fourth [first of taurus] Mercury, the 2nd of Taurus the Moon. This results in the interesting artefact that the decans also have a correspondence with the days of the week, ie.: 1 Decan Aries = Mars = Tuesday 1 Decan Taurus = Mercury = Wednesday 1 Decan Gemini = Jupiter = Thursday 1 decan Cancer = Venus = Friday etc, until you get to 1 Decan Pisces = Saturn = Saturday Then you jump from the first decan of the last sign to the second decan of the first sign:- 2 decan Aries = Sun = Sunday 2 decan Taurus = Moon = Monday until you get to 2 decan Pisces = Jupiter = Thursday Then go round again from the second decan of the last sign to the third decan of Aries: 3 decan Aries = Venus = Friday 3 decan Taurus = Saturn = Saturday Kwaw

ncefafn	09 Mar 2004
So are you saying that Cancer is the second decan of Taurus under the system you use? Kim

kwaw	09 Mar 2004
No, I am saying the in the traditional Chaldean system of rulerships, which goes back to at least Ptolemy, the second decan of Taurus is ruled by the Moon. And this is the system that is used as a basis for the attributions of the ToL, and the GD astrological / tarot attributions. Hence why there is the symbol of Moon / Taurus on the VI discs on the Crowley/Harris Thoth deck. This is also the system most common in Western astrology until the 20th century, when the system favoured by Jyotish astrology was popularized by theosophical astrologers of the English School. This order and the influence of planetary hours is still a major consideration in Jewish astrology. Kwaw

ncefafn	09 Mar 2004
Thank you.

kwaw	09 Mar 2004
Thanks Kim for posing the question, sometimes you are so familiar with a system that you forget that maybe others aren't. I admit to a tendency to being 'obscure' and to see patterns in the round and forego the details and to jump from one association to another the logic of which is not always obvious to others. Appreciate the grounding ;) Kwaw

lionette	10 Mar 2004
Yippee!! That was a fun challenge, kwaw. Not sure I'll be able to post mine before the week is out -- a little busy with classes right now altho should have something next week, if not earlier.

kwaw	10 Mar 2004
OK one more thing - does anyone know how I put 'solved' in the subject line? Kwaw

jmd	10 Mar 2004
Kiama, as Moderator, will do that in time... :)

The Literature Clue (March 8) thread was originally posted on 08 Mar 2004 in the Tarot Games & Fun board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Tarot Games & Fun, or read more archived threads.