Sanctum Sanctorum

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 Dec 2001, and now archived in the Forum Library.

AmounrA	12 Dec 2001
I have been wondering about the taro cards 'Sun' & 'Star'. Wondering what the real difference is? To me the sun card is really Tiphareth on the tree of life spheres. The card and the sphere both represent simplicity and beauty. Sometimes refered to as the garden of childhood lost..[peter pan]. The sphere below tiphareth, Yesod is the moon card, representing initiation.,,,,,but why if the sun is a star , are there 2 stars? All stars fit into tiphareth on the tree of life, so what is special about 'the star'....what is the 'old' story behind it? What is it there to tell us? As science updates it's models with evolution and progression, so to does the 'occult', which to me is the science of universal motivation [for want of better words] It gets 'into' the universe. Going by the belief that these cards where at some point 'imagined' and that the imagination is universally connected from within [at tiphareth?] is it beyond possiblity that some ideas are planted? Some developments are planted within human minds? For example....when einstein was writing his theories, he visualized the problem, searched within for answers, is it possible the answers came halfway from 'above' to meet him? Is it even possible that Einsteins ideas came with a fresh wave of ideas in the years around 1904, which came as part of a 'plan' ? i.e something playing with us? To me the Star taro card represents this notion. The star is sometimes refered to as the silver star, or dog star. Around this books could and have been written. The egyptians had a special affinity to the star 'sothis', a star linked to isis [high priestess]. The star card & high priestess card also seem similar.... seem to be coming from the same place. What is this star, and do signals [transmissions] really happen from within.....are we being played ? by what?........and I am being sirius :-) If taro cards work & are plugged in, what else is/can be?

Kiama	26 Dec 2001
And if the Tarot did come from Italy, how do you explain cards such as Judgment and the Devil? JMD: i am not disputing that through applying Egyptian Goddesses etc to certain cards we can deepen our understanding. I have constantly found doin this benficial. But, to take it one step further, and to say that the Tarot comes from Egypt, (With its Devil card and Judgement day card!) without any actual archaeological evidence to back it up, and seemingly based on pure speculation, isn't the way I'm going. And about Kabbalah, Tarot, and Synchronicity It is harly surprising to me tht the Italian nobility who were into the occut were also heavily into the Kabbalah. And to say (As mentioned by DeLani ina previous post) that the church in Italy had a stranglhold is inaccurate. At the time Ialy had what was called Papal States, ruled by a Duke (One by the Duke of Milan- The guy who wrot the Visconti Sforza letters!). The Papal States, whilst saying the were doing wha the Pope was telling them, were actually struggling for power over Italy, nt ony against each other, but also against the Church. At one point, there were 3 Popes, all fighting with each other over the position! How can the church a that ime then, be said to have had a stranglhold, if that was what as going on?! Anyway, my brain has run dry (For now!) But before I end this post, some sincere thanks are in order: To AmounrA: For being the catalyst into my deeper study of the origin of the Tarot, of Hermetica, and Crowley. And also for giving me a good run for my money wth her rater nift arguing skills! To DeLani For doing the same as AmounrA, only in a nicer tone of writing! To JMD: For the perspective from both sides. Thankyou! And keep this going, I'm learning alot! Kiama

AmounrA	26 Dec 2001
Kiama, are you a christian?, you seem to hold an unhealthy respect for Jesus :-)...joking aside I take it you realise the book of law comes in three parts. Each part covers a different type of viewpoint. Crowleys wife actually killed herself. But I personally believe the book of the law to be a genuine transmisson from an energy calling itself 'Aiwass',[if you really believe in magical practice, sometimes you have to believe magik is really happening] . All your quotes from the B.OT.Law are taken from the third section, which is in spirit a 'fighter'. I would suggest you read number 63 from this section. Let me quote section 1, verse 3-" every man and woman is a star" (incidently theres a film called 'walkabout',set in the Ozzy outback, mid way through there is a golden sun rising and the words of section 1 verse 3 quoted...check it, its beautiful). also section 1 verse 29. .." For I am divided for loves sake, for the chance of union". The devil...ever heard of 'Set' Judgement comes a lot from the old testement....a book whoose roots can be found way back, there are Summerian versions of the bible. The Egyptians are well aware of judgement.

AmounrA	26 Dec 2001
"One of the tasks which Amoun rA may strive for is to seek an answer to what each card harkens back to. This will, inevitably, transcend the historical, and will, may I suggest, also transcend any singular ancient culture, whether this be Greek, Egyptian, Chaldean or Mesopotamian."..... Indeed J.M.D. perhaps to a Universal thoughtform setting up doors.

DeLani	27 Dec 2001
OK, I think I need to clarify my position. :) I do NOT believe the cards came from Egypt. Rather, I believe that there is a very high probability that the first cards, printed in Italy and/or France, were influenced by the proto-Freemasons (the Craft Guilds) and/or the Cathar Gnostics. The Freemasons and Gnostics were influened by Egyptian and Greek mystery schools. Therefore, there is PROBABLY an INDIRECT influence from the Egyptian and Greek mystery schools through the Freemasons and/or Cathars into the cards. Or, it could just be a modern thing, what Jung called sychronicity. ;) As for the state of Church control over Europe (not that it really matters to this topic), the cards were first mentioned in the mid-1300's. You are right that it was at the end of the Dark Ages. Perhaps only then did the Craft Guilds feel "safe" enough to produce them? We'll probably never know. The Renaissance was characterised by a popularity of all things Greek and Egyptian, including mysticism. Why not suppose the cards were an early part of that? That they were a "modern" (at that time) reconstruction of older mystic systems? That is something to ponder. Blessings, DeLani

Kiama	27 Dec 2001
Quote: AmounrA (27 Dec, 2001 11:37): Kiama, are you a christian?, you seem to hold an unhealthy respect for Jesus :-) ROFLMAO!! I'm a Celtic Pagan. Why do you ask? Anyway, that aside... *Kiama tries to stop her giggles, and eventually regains her composure* Judgement: The Egyptian understanding of Judgement Day involved the weighing of the heart against a feather on a par of scales. So, why, if the Tarot is orignally of Egyptian origin, dos the Justice card bear the scales, and the Judgement card something completely different? And why, if there was ever an Egyptian version of the deck, does one not exist? Why are there no references or records of such a deck being used in Egypt? With reference to Crowley and transmissions from a Higher Power: I think I'd find this method in which the BOTL was recieved easier to believe if Crowley wasn't a known drug-addict, biased Egyptologist Hell-bent on bringing Egypt into the Occult, and a man intent on shocking the straight-laced Victorian culture he lived in. Some of his stuff, esp. his poetry is gorgeous, andhis writing is rich and 'full of flavour', but I wouldn't accredit him with direct contact, in person if you will, with any form of the Divine. Can the Divine really be manifested in a human body? Can such an ineffable Being voice itself in mere words? And of course, when something is transmitted through a person, it is inevitably changed somewhat. Examples of this being the Bible, Chinese Whispers (LOVE THAT GAME!!!), and a psychological study conducted a while back (Will get back to you on the exact date and psychologist: I have no access to any of my books at the moment.) called the War of The Ghosts, which proved that when we are told something, we translate it into a version of the story we can understand with out on logic. For instance, if a group of Englismen are told the Native American story called the War of the Ghosts, the canoes become boats with sails, the moccasins shoes, and things are translated into concept that the Englishmen come across in their daily lives. Given this, can a human really apply Divine wisdom to human logic and writing? Onto DeLani's post.... Kiama

Kiama	27 Dec 2001
Quote: DeLani (28 Dec, 2001 02:26): OK, I think I need to clarify my position. :) I do NOT believe the cards came from Egypt. Rather, I believe that there is a very high probability that the first cards, printed in Italy and/or France, were influenced by the proto-Freemasons (the Craft Guilds) and/or the Cathar Gnostics. The Freemasons and Gnostics were influened by Egyptian and Greek mystery schools. Therefore, there is PROBABLY an INDIRECT influence from the Egyptian and Greek mystery schools through the Freemasons and/or Cathars into the cards. Or, it could just be a modern thing, what Jung called sychronicity. ;) As for the state of Church control over Europe (not that it really matters to this topic), the cards were first mentioned in the mid-1300's. You are right that it was at the end of the Dark Ages. Perhaps only then did the Craft Guilds feel "safe" enough to produce them? We'll probably never know. The Renaissance was characterised by a popularity of all things Greek and Egyptian, including mysticism. Why not suppose the cards were an early part of that? That they were a "modern" (at that time) reconstruction of older mystic systems? That is something to ponder. Blessings, DeLani I'll clarify my position now too: I believe the cards originated in Italy, or at least in Western Europe, and that at first they were merely game of cards. I'm not threatened by this in any way, cuz its what I do now with the cards that matters. It has evolved from a game to something more, but did not start out as something mystical or magickal. In other parts of this discussion I have also taken certain sides of an argument simply for the sake of it: I do this all the time, and it doesn't mean I sypathise with the view, I am just challenging my own mind and others' minds by doing it. I also agree that Egyptain mythology and thought ad the occult schools can be pplied to the Tarot no, but were not initial influences on it, and indeed history shows this: It wasn't until the 18th century that the Cabalah was first applied to the Tarot, and it is also shon in the fac that some Hebrew letters attributed to a card aren't quite as fitting as would be expected. A really col bit of knowledge which would be worthwhile pondering is that, aswell as the Kabbalah havin 22 letters in its alpahbet, there is an ancient Celtic Tree alphabt (One pre-dating the Ogham) with 22 letters, which a Golden Dawn member and poet (One of my fave!) WB Yeats tried to apply to the Tarot. So, why apply the Kabbalah, and not this Celtic Tree alphabet? I think it is because the Kabbalah hold more allure and mystigue to it, and is quite in vogue at the moment, as it was when it was first applied to the Tarot from the 8th C onwards. Now what we need to think about with response to your last bit of post... How much did the early Rennaisance people really KNOW about Egypt? Considering heiroglyphs weren't translated until the 18th C, they can't have known much that can be considered accurate. All they could possibly have gotten their info from were early Grek writings, but these are coloured with the Geek viewpoints and agan, are not highly accurate, and have been proven in places to tell not the whole truth (When heiroglyphs were translated the Greek accounts were found to be greatly lacking) Plus, the Greek writings were around 1000 years away from the end of the Egyptian 'reign' over the East, so could they really have entire, accurate knowledge, and thus give later shools of thought accurate info? Plus, alot of what we know about Egytian mythology and cosmology has been found out through archaeology, which wasn't really around during the early Renaissance years. Our undertstanding of Egypt, and indeed, many early mystery traditions such as the Gnostics (A great book about these guys which I love is The Jesus Mysteries) and Orphics, hs only been sumplemented and expanded in recent centuries, certainly not during the early Renaissance years and before. Kiama

DeLani	27 Dec 2001
Yes, Kiama, I agree with you on the point of Renaissance people not haveing very accurate info on the Greeks, Egyptians, and Gnostics. Perhaps that's why the cards don't quite fit with what we now know about them. Like I said before, I suspect that the cards were invented under the guise of a game, but was actually a reconstruction (perhaps inaccurate) of earlier European mystic concepts. That is was "just a game" just doesn't wash with me; if Tarot has taught me anything in the 16 yrs. I've been with it, it's to listen to my intuition. Why else would the Gypsies (and others) adopt this, and not dice or some other game, as a divinatory tool? It just speaks to something deeper than a mere game. I know that's not fact, it's just my personal intuition. But if all you believe are cold hard facts, how do you read the cards at all? Love to all, DeLani

DeLani	27 Dec 2001
More... Got to thinking about the "just a game" concept some more. If it was just some card game, where in the world did they come up with the images on the Trumps? The Popess??? The Hanged Man - not Christ??? The world with a naked dancer??? Death - not the end, but at number 13? It just doesn't gel too well with the Christian iconography at the time - it's almost, well, heretical (some might even say Gnostic). And look at the runes. Some could say it's "just an alphabet." But for some reason, with no historical evidence to back it up, they are considered sacred keys to wisdom and divination. Sound familiar? This thread is great - I love the brain workout! But it does seem to have the flavor of an Anthro class I took a few years ago. It was a Native American class, and had many NA's in it. A heated discussion ensued over whether they had crossed the land bridge over the Bering Strait, as archeological evidence suggests, or if their origin myths were true. All I'm saying is regardless of the historical background and physical origins of the cards, there is a component of something deeper there. And it's too big to be an accident. Blessings, DeLani

AmounrA	27 Dec 2001
"ROFLMAO!! I'm a Celtic Pagan. Why do you ask?" "With reference to Crowley and transmissions from a Higher Power: I think I'd find this method in which the BOTL was recieved easier to believe if Crowley wasn't a known drug-addict, biased Egyptologist Hell-bent on bringing Egypt into the Occult, and a man intent on shocking the straight-laced Victorian culture he lived in. " From what I can gather some great art has been done on Opium.[l.s.d is ment to be rather good aswell]. I would hardly call crowley an egyptologist. What do celtic pagans do? I asked if you where a christian for fun :-) Anyhow Kiama, I have said already that I do not believe the Egyptians where using 78 card tarot decks. But I do believe the storys contained within the cards are of egyptian roots. The Egyptian civilisation lasted THOUSANDS of years. Egypt had universites when the greeks where nothing, when in europe there was nothing worth mentioning. When in Britain they had stone circles.....in Egypt they had pyramids. Egyptian schoolers accepted Greek pupils , who in returned to Greece and evolved greek civilisation. The Egyptians where Pagan. Look at the respect Alexander the great had for Egyptian gods...and who was alexanders teacher?.......

AmounrA	27 Dec 2001
......the Egyptian mythology never went away!! Other cultures assimilated it and changed names and some details. But to just wipe away the Egyptian legacy is plain wrong. The inital question of this thread was about the sun and the star. The star card does not seem in any way to be the star of bethlehem.......I believe it is the silver star, Sothis, a star of great importance and meaning to the Egyptians. As you say Kiama, , Anubis ,wieghed the heart agaist a feather & scales do show up in justice....... As DeLani says...the symbolism of the tarot is not of a christian cosmology.....if it was there would be a 'jesus', 'peter','judas' ' mary' 'manger'..etc...etc cards, and those cards ain't there!!.....because the people behind them where not from the christian faith, or system.

jmd	28 Dec 2001
The date at which the Renaissance is considered to begin, and thus the Middle Ages to end, varies. In any case, it is not an instant, but a transitional period, altering geographically as well as socio-religio-politically. The Renaissance may already have truly started in Albi circles in the 13th century, but not until much later in Pisa, and later again in Paris... With regards to proto-Masonic lodges, there were quite significant differences between Masonic ones, and guilds of other genres (printing, shoeing, &c), simply because of the nature of their work. What is clear from early Masonic evidence is the lack of obvious Greek or Egyptian influence... as is for the Tarot! Again, as for the Tarot, these were later 'discovered' (many such links by Masonic authors). But, to paraphrase a brilliant piece of writing by the French philosopher Gaston Bachelard (I have only slightly modified the tense and substituted 'Tarot' for 'Poetic'): Quote: ...when occasion arises to mention the relation of a Tarot image to an archetype lying dormant in the depths of the unconscious, it must be understood that this relation is not, properly speaking, a causal one. The Tarot image is not subject to an inner thrust. It is not an echo of the past. On the contrary: through the brilliance of an image, the distant past resounds with echoes, and it is hard to know at what depth these echoes will reverberate and die away. Because of its novelty and its action, the Tarot image has an entity and a dynamism of its own; it it referable to a direct ontology . Poetics of Space , p xvi. To also revert to the original thread, and to the question of XVII the Star, Sothis (and hence Sirius) does, of course, fit quite well with the image (especially if it is viewed that the additional water pouring out is responsible for the flooding of the 'depicted' Nile). Again, this is an example showing both that the Star and the Sun are quite distinct and independent, and that, by entering ancient mythology, other depths can be entered.

Kiama	28 Dec 2001
Quote: DeLani (28 Dec, 2001 11:27): More... Got to thinking about the "just a game" concept some more. If it was just some card game, where in the world did they come up with the images on the Trumps? The Popess??? The Hanged Man - not Christ??? The world with a naked dancer??? Death - not the end, but at number 13? It just doesn't gel too well with the Christian iconography at the time - it's almost, well, heretical (some might even say Gnostic). Thi is becase it WAS only a game wen it first appeared in the West, and therefore focussed not on the religious aspect of life, but no the everyday concepts. Most of the images of out modern decks were not originally like that. They really weren't anything but people. In some early Renassiance decks the Popess was a man! If it was more than a game, then I could possibly accept that it should've had some more Christian iconography, but in this case, using Christain things on PACK OF CARDS was considered even more heretical than putting Pagan images on a pack. Pus, even if it wsn't of Western origin, why are there not images of Eastern Gods on the extant packs? To answer your earlier part of the question: The Minor Arcana and Trumps are considered to have come from a different place, and were joined at some point. But I don't know much about this part. Kiama

Kiama	28 Dec 2001
Quote: DeLani (28 Dec, 2001 11:14): That is was "just a game" just doesn't wash with me; if Tarot has taught me anything in the 16 yrs. I've been with it, it's to listen to my intuition. Why else would the Gypsies (and others) adopt this, and not dice or some other game, as a divinatory tool? It just speaks to something deeper than a mere game. I know that's not fact, it's just my personal intuition. But if all you believe are cold hard facts, how do you read the cards at all? Love to all, DeLani Firstly, the Gypsies were known for using anything they could find for divination. They happened to come across Tarot at some point. But they really have no claim to it as some people say. They did, in fact, use dice, in a method called Cleromancy, if I'm not mistaken. On a more personal note, and in response to your rather hurtful comment at the end of your post: I have been reading the cards and studying them, aswell as comparitive religion and the occult sciences, since I was 9. That's 8 years now, not as long as you,granted, but I consider myself pretty experienced for someone my age. I read the cards well, and I don't really think what they started out as affects what they do now. I use them as a counselling and divinatory tool, and at times, as fun for my little sisters, and for playing Tarot Poker (Thanks Tarotbear!) I don't mind how they started out, as long as I know what they are to me NOW. It is the here and now that matters most when reading. It is just from a scholarly viewopoint that I am interested in their history. Kiama

Kiama	28 Dec 2001
Quote: AmounrA (28 Dec, 2001 12:22): I would hardly call crowley an egyptologist. What do celtic pagans do? I asked if you where a christian for fun :-) Okay then, not an Egyptologis (Now we're mincing words) Maybe a guy relly really REALLY into Egypt. Celtic Pagans: Pagans who usually believe in the old Celtic Gods of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Briton, and Gaul. Anyway, onto your next part of the post... It as not Egyptians who had the first universities. Plato found the first one, where he taught PE, Philosophy, and Maths. This University was called The Academy (But in Greek of course!) And the only eeksto visit Egyptians were not pupils, but historians, who wrote down what they saw (Like Iamblichus). You will find that there is very little supportable evidence for Egypt helping to 'build' the Grecian civilisation. Just cuz Alexander the grea had great respect for Egyptain Gods does not mean that his teacher Aristotle was heavily influenced by Egypt. For insance, I have exceedingly high respect for Hindu Gods, but I do not know a Hindu person. I have not been schooled by a Hindu person. I just have an open mind and a good Mum who taught me that the respect of others, their beliefs, and culture, is an integral part of what being a good and moral person is. If the Greeks were really that influenced by Egypt, we would know of it in their writings. I dn't see aything really about Egypt from any of Plato's writings, or from records of Socrates' teachings, or from Epicurus... And don't bash those stone circles *Kiama aughs good naturedly* They're great! And it has been shwn that they were designed meticulously and specifically to manipulate sound waves to create certin effects. (These waves are called standing waves,and an example of the change in this can be seen when you stand outside a stone cirle: You annot hear anything, or if so, very little, of wha is going on inside, butinside the circle the sound is amplified to 3 times the normal decibels.) In barrow mounds and other such structures, the standing waves are also played on, so that when you hold a very low note, in the sound you might imagine a Druid or Shaman making, that note is affected by the Standing Waves, and is thus aplified in only certain part of the barrow mound: In others, it is silent.. The sound also produces exteremly low reveberation fequncies, which produce the symptoms usually acompined by trances, or what people think are trances : Nausea, swirling scenery, heavy head, unable to stand properly, sleepiness.... Anyway, that's enough trivia. I suppose it might come up useful at some oint in your life. On a really difficult gameshow or something! :) I have alread eplied to the part about why there is not "jesus', 'Mary', etc cards in the deck in the post to DeLani.... Anyway, must go rest my aching brain! Kiama

Kiama	28 Dec 2001
Quote: AmounrA (28 Dec, 2001 12:44): I believe it is the silver star, Sothis, a star of great importance and meaning to the Egyptians. Could it not be Polaris: It is absolutely necessary if you have no compass and are travelling by night. It is also the brightest star in the sky. Kiama

AmounrA	28 Dec 2001
kIAMA. I don't think you have studied astronomy as long as you have studied the Taro. Sothis/Sirius is the brightest star visible from Earth, In fact I don't think polaris is even in the top 25 brightest stars visible from our humble aboad. [sirius is also relatively close at 8.6 light years]. I myself am Scottish and live not a couple of miles from a grand stone circle. [ in my youth i spent many nights with friends, experimenting with magik mushrooms at various stone circles] Think if you can generate all that spiritual power in a stone circle..........what can be achieved with a 146.6 metre high, pyramid of stone.[incidently, did you know they found egyptian beads at stonehenge?] As for greece having the first universities....nay......the Egyptian uni's where part of the temple complexes.The temple of Karnak for one example, was a place not only of worship but also learning. I don't think you fully comprehend just how incredible Egypt was in the world of that time. Also if you look at Egypts postition on a map, you will notice how well placed it is to influence early Europe. " if the greeks were really influenced by Egypt, we would see it in there writings"..........we do, also in the culture. For a greek to be influenced by Egypt is not the same as you being influenced by a hindu. Egypt was a short hop across a small section of the Med. [from whom did the macedonian Alexander, learn about the Egyptian patheon , if that knowledge had not spread out from Egypt?

AmounrA	28 Dec 2001
Jmd, great little quote that from Gaston Bachelard, I think the keyword there is ECHOES, beautifully put. [perhaps the music gets distorted everytime it rebounds, but the player of the original tune is still contained within the sound]

Kiama	29 Dec 2001
Quote: AmounrA (29 Dec, 2001 11:19): kIAMA. I don't think you have studied astronomy as long as you have studied the Taro. Sothis/Sirius is the brightest star visible from Earth, In fact I don't think polaris is even in the top 25 brightest stars visible from our humble aboad. [sirius is also relatively close at 8.6 light years] . It doesn't matter that it was te brightest: It was IMPOSSIBLE to navigate by night if your had no compass, without Polaris. t is the North Star. Italy was largely a maritine nation, and without the North Star, they wouldn't have been able to trade as much as they did. Polaris is the most important star. Like the actual card, it presents hop to those lost inthe darkness. Who cares whether or not it is the brightest: You try navigating without a compass, and without Polaris. Believe me, I've tried it it is virtually impossible, unless you know the place like the back of your hand. Go on, try it. Place yourself in a boat, in the middle of the Pacific, and navigate without a compass. Or just try and find your way around Dartmoor the same way. And your'e right, I have NEVER studied astronomy. I'm 17: I'm not even out of college, and still have a long way to go before can study such a thing. But that doen't mean I can't use my general knowlege, which, IMHO, is very good. Kiama

Kiama	29 Dec 2001
Quote: AmounrA (29 Dec, 2001 11:19): I myself am Scottish and live not a couple of miles from a grand stone circle. [ in my youth i spent many nights with friends, experimenting with magik mushrooms at various stone circles] Think if you can generate all that spiritual power in a stone circle..........what can be achieved with a 146.6 metre high, pyramid of stone. [incidently, did you know they found egyptian beads at stonehenge?] Spiritual energy comes from within. Not from architecture. The architecture can helps add atmosphere, but the actual energy is only generated by the person. Personally, I reckon the Celts and the Neolithic peoples who built the stone circles were great. And the universities you speak of in Egypt: They were not universities. They were only available to high people: Pharoahs, priests. Whereas the university Plato opened was open to all people, male, female, rich, poor... It was the first university as we know it today. But enough talk of universities. Its a bit too cose to home right now for me to be objective about them. And I don't think you flly comprehend how greatthe Celts were at the ime either! Britain isn't exactly the promised land, is it? Its wet, horribly boggy, with very little by way of resources to build great buildings. Egypt had that. The Celts used what they could. And anyway, the Sothis is actually two stars. If the Egyptians were so get, how come they didn't know this, when a Polynesian culture who claimed to be descended from the Sothis,knew that it was two stars way before any other culture did. I fact, we only discovered it when high powered telescopes were invented! And how well positioned was Egypt to influence Greece, or Macedonia as it was then, which was over the Med sea? Not exactly next-door neighbours! And I seriously doubt the Egyptian religion was assimilated. Although we see a few similarities betwen Greek ad Egyptian Gods, ths is common between all cultures. It doesn't mean they assimilated it! I think it is common human need to believe in say, an Earth Mother, and Goddess that brings night, a God of the Underworld, a messenger God But this doen't mean they were assimilated into each other. Rome assimilated the Greek Gods, but Greece did not assimilate the Egptian Gds. And, please, give me something from the Greek philosophers that is geatly influenced by Egypt! Yes, historians wrote about Egypt, but they were not influenced by it! Philosophy was BORN in Greece. As were most things, and they were not influenced by Egypt! Alexander learnt about the Egyptian pantheon, cuz of what historians such as Iamblichus wrote. Kiama

DeLani	29 Dec 2001
Kiama, I certainly meant no offense with that comment. I was merely trying to point out that intuitive knowledge is no less important as "factual" knowledge, by pointing out what we do as readers can't be proven in any "scentific" way. Sorry again, DeLani

Kiama	29 Dec 2001
Quote: DeLani (30 Dec, 2001 05:51): Kiama, I certainly meant no offense with that comment. I was merely trying to point out that intuitive knowledge is no less important as "factual" knowledge, by pointing out what we do as readers can't be proven in any "scentific" way. Sorry again, DeLani Oh, hey, no: I'm sorry too. I guess I'm too easily hurt! What I meant by what I said is, kinda, that whilst intuition is indeed a good thing when reading cards, it isn't the best thing to go by when researching and discussing their history and origins. And I was also saying that when I read, I pretty much separate the scholarly fom the intuitive, so I don't just rely on fact. Kiama

Major Tom	30 Dec 2001
*pulling on hip waders and donning a pith helmet to join the fray* Perhaps I could add my humble opinion to this vast stream of knowledge which is known to cause headaches. }> From Playing Cards by Roger Tilley: "The earliest know original document with an unarguable reference to playing cards is a manuscript dated 1377..." That physical cards appeared first in Europe in renaissance Italy cannot be disputed. That the concepts that led to the creation of the cards have older origins is logical, but cannot be supported with contemporary to the time documentary evidence. Tarot depicts archtypes - for this reason almost any system can be incorporated into tarot - thus we see in the literal thousands of decks available today. Secret societies were created to 'protect' knowledge - to conceal rather than disemanate knowledge. Secret societies considered the knowledge they protected as dangerous - and so it is - we only need examine Crowley's career to learn this lesson. I've often wondered how much of the 'secret' knowledge was simply 'made up' by the society that protected it. :-) Not that 'made up' knowledge can't be dangerous. I feel about this the same way I feel about most things about tarot. If it feels good - it's right. So, if it feels good to you to believe in the [fill in ancient culture of choice] origins of tarot - then it must be right. }>

Kiama	31 Dec 2001
Quote: Major Tom (30 Dec, 2001 18:47): *pulling on hip waders and donning a pith helmet to join the fray* Perhaps I could add my humble opinion to this vast stream of knowledge which is known to cause headaches. }> From Playing Cards by Roger Tilley: "The earliest know original document with an unarguable reference to playing cards is a manuscript dated 1377..." That physical cards appeared first in Europe in renaissance Italy cannot be disputed. That the concepts that led to the creation of the cards have older origins is logical, but cannot be supported with contemporary to the time documentary evidence. Tarot depicts archtypes - for this reason almost any system can be incorporated into tarot - thus we see in the literal thousands of decks available today. Secret societies were created to 'protect' knowledge - to conceal rather than disemanate knowledge. Secret societies considered the knowledge they protected as dangerous - and so it is - we only need examine Crowley's career to learn this lesson. I've often wondered how much of the 'secret' knowledge was simply 'made up' by the society that protected it. :-) Not that 'made up' knowledge can't be dangerous. I feel about this the same way I feel about most things about tarot. If it feels good - it's right. So, if it feels good to you to believe in the [fill in ancient culture of choice] origins of tarot - then it must be right. }> If this thread were a book, (And indeed, it would be a very interesting book!) then Major Tom's statement would be the conclusion. I am happy with it as the conclusion. Everyone else in concurrance? Still friends? :) :) :) Kiama

jmd	05 Jan 2002
I've been away for a(nother) week, and so missed on reading some more of this wonderful thread... but why let it be concluded by a relativistic statement? Major Tom writes, with which Kiama seems to agree: "If it feels good - it's right. So, if it feels good to you to believe in the [fill in ancient culture of choice] origins of tarot - then it must be right." That a rapport with a culture can be made as one penetrates, in meditative oneiric meaningfulness, the depths of a card's semiotic dimensions can certainly be individually 'right' and 'correct', for in such space 'right' and 'wrong' are far inferior to 'meaningful' and 'meaningless'. This does not imply, however, that the origins of Tarot in that culture must be 'right'. The echoes of the past are still with us. The Pyramid recently made in the USA (complete with a Sphinx and plastic palms!) certainly owes a trait to ancient Egypt, but is definitely the product of 20th century materialistic consumerism... and includes its positive attributes as well! The Tarot, if arising out of late mediaeval Europe, will undoubtedly have echoes of earlier times... these echoes, however, need not be understood in, nor have a similar effect on us as, the "original musician's" intent. Quote: Kiama, you mention that "It was IMPOSSIBLE to navigate by night if your had no compass, without Polaris". This is simply not true. Any group of stars, if known, can be used to work out true North. In the Southern hemisphere, for example, a combination of the Southern Cross and the Pointers can be used to accurately and quickly determine true South... Having Polaris is an additional blessing! Quote: With regards to the earliest known reference to playing cards, mentioned by Major Tom above, these were not, in all probability, Tarot. I would dearly like to be able to say something like: Tarot, as Tarot, was first put together as a single deck of 78 cards, combining various images with which we are now familiar, in 1196, in the 'French' department of Taro, now in northern Italy, by a teacher-monk-traveler having Bogomil associations... but is it true? ... and is not the Mystery kept more Sacred by its inaccessibly concealed history?

DeLani	05 Jan 2002
Wow. I made it through jmd's post. And I can still see and think! :) But the last sentence was what made the most sense to me: that it is indeed a mystery, and that mysteriousness gives it more power. Any great revelation must be come to us through a mystery. DeLani

AmounrA	05 Jan 2002
I agree that theTarot ,as we know it are two different games combined. I also have no doubt that the trumps contain wisdom from the old mystrey schools, where they where used as teaching tools. [a type of mandalla?]. The moon card is interesting as it has two towers and a shinning middle path. This to me clearly denotes the left/right pillars of the tree of life & the 'shinning' central pillar.This card is completely linked to 'initiation'....initiation into what? :-). One could also liken the two towers too the obelisks of egypt, often found in pairs [gateways]. Kiama asks in post 54, if the Egyptians where so great , how comes they did not know Sirius was two stars? Firstly there are more than two stars in the sirian system, and there is evidence that the Egyptians DID know this! I refer to the Dogon tribe of mali, north Africa. They still hold to ancient rituals dedicated to sirius, and where ON record as believing Sirius was orbited by a small star every 55 years long before astronomers discovered Sirius was indeed orbited by a white dwarf every.....55 years! The dogons also said there where other stars there......as has only very recently been confirmed.(Sirius B itself was first photographed in 1976 [i think]) The Dogon tribe say they got there knowledge from fish/human beings , and also seem to fully understnd the concepts of Isis. The book the Sirius mystrey is a tor de force study of this geniune mystrey.The book is not one of these mumbo jumbo books like 'the orion mystrey' or 'finger prints of the gods'!) Could there possibly be, hidden within the taro 'echoes' of such knowlege? watered down now so that the original musician tune is not fully understood, but the tarot card 'the star' remains? Also, the beauty of a synchronicity in the tribe 'Dogon' and the star system 'Canus Major?'.....is this some universal joke from C.C ?.......are we getting into 'nephilm/anunaki' territory?

Jewel	07 Jan 2002
Geeeeeshhhhhhhh I had been away from this thread for about 2 1/2 weeks and what a book to return too *LOL*. All I have to say is that after reading all of your arguments I have tossed everything I know and have read out the door and am creating my own theory that the Tarot originated in Atlantis thus all trace of its history has thus been lost; find Atlantis and you will find the Tarot history, orgin of the pyramids and anything else we have lost ~giggles~. As for the the Tarot's association to the Qabalah I maintain that it is by association or joining of essoteric systems not all part of the same system. I think I better go take two asprin after reading this great thread ~chuckles~ Love & Light,

Kiama	07 Jan 2002
Quote: AmounrA (06 Jan, 2002 14:56): Kiama asks in post 54, if the Egyptians where so great , how comes they did not know Sirius was two stars? Firstly there are more than two stars in the sirian system, and there is evidence that the Egyptians DID know this! If they did know this, and if the Star card has Sothis on it, why is there only ONE main star, and why are the others surrounding it in no particular reference to the stars surronding Sothis? JMD: Okay, so it may be possible for a learned astronomer to find their way using other costelations, but the Pole Star is the only one which remains in virtually the same place all year round. The constellations change, whilst good ole Polaris remains pointing to North. Back to AmounrA: When looking at cards like the Moon, and saying that this and that on the cardis a reference to this tradition, or that initiatory pathway, we need to remember that the Tarot wasn't born looking like it does now. The archaeological evidnce we have shows us that the Tarot never had any of the intricate pictures or symbology on it when it started out. Whilst later on a mystery school may have applied all this to the deck (Which we know they did), it wasn't born with that. Its just such a great and versatile system that othe systems are easiy attached to it. Kiama

Kiama	07 Jan 2002
Quote: jmd (05 Jan, 2002 20:28): ... and is not the Mystery kept more Sacred by its inaccessibly concealed history? ...and is it not great fun to try and solve tha Mystery? Kiama

SR	07 Jan 2002
This and other similar questions have definite correct answers. The Tarot is an interesting riddle, and the ones who speak of "blinds" are correct. One of the first tests of a prospective intiate is to determine the correct attribution of "keys" to the entire Major Arcana, thus displaying the ability to DISCRIMINATE TRUTH from DECEPTION. Once the task of determing the correct structure and content of the Major Arcana is accomplished, the meanings instantly clear and unequivocal. This is a great question here, but first, it might be a good idea to look at the bigger picture and understand the Tarot in its entirety before worrying too much about individual cards. Again, some responders to your query are getting "warm"...the answer may be found through desire to KNOW, CONCENTRATION on the burning QUESTION and patient COMPTEMPLATION on everything that is known about what the Major Arcana contains with respect to symbols, colors, numbered order and attributions. Those who question and research the Major Arcana this deeply are coming closer to authentic HERMETIC INITIATION; not that kind which yields public status or dignity, as within an ORDER, but the kind of initiation that gives birth to INTUITION within. To say more would cause a potential violation of universal law and engage the Lords of Karma residing in the Saturn sphere. May Divine Providence Smile upon your Quest for KNOWLEDGE. Warm Regards, StaveRunner

jmd	07 Jan 2002
SR, I agree that discrimination between Truth and Appearance is one of the early steps along one's path. This will only develop as one, with Reverence, begins to discriminate the Essential from the Inessential. Concurrently, one needs to develop the petals found on the Throat-Lotus flower, by practising Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right View, Right Intentions, whilst maintaining Right Concentration. Whilst these eight 'rights' are being practised, one systematically also develops the Heart Chakra through Control of Thoughts, Control of Actions, Perseverence, and Tolerance, Impartiality and Equanimity. As one slowly works on all this, the development of an organ for the Love of Inner Freedom also develops... To transcend to quest for mere Knowledge, however elevated it may be, you may wish to visit this Tarot site... Here you will find, not false blinds, but simple craftsmanship! With this, esoteric Understanding and arcane Wisdom truly reflects its Crowning achievement. Here you will also see that the Golden Dawn (GD) numbering, which was followed by Waite, and then by Case (who was expelled from the GD and formed BOTA), is but one late modification which, though it leads, as any association can, to useful reflections, also loses something essential in the process.

AmounrA	07 Jan 2002
Hello SR, I understand entirely what you mean by Hermetic Initiation. I myself remain outside all religous /spiritual orders as policy.The way I see things like the taro cards, is that the essense of there design involved 'imagination'. Imagination to me, is something magick. Its accepting that the 'universe' is completely linked from within. When we shut down our senses we can truley go 'in'. My own initiation came through a series of occurances that to me, let me know one thing..............'something is interacting with my reality'. Its like a school that is within conciousness......you meet 'it' halfway, and 'it' will meet you. I would not say though that my quest is for knowledge, perhaps when I started out, I wanted to discover the meaning of life, the reason for everything.......the truth. But now , I see much of this as foolish human expectations. Knowledge which may be refered to Daath on the map, sits in the abyss. Perhaps because to cross the Abyss you have to give up the persuit of Knowledge & 'assimilate'. Whatever , I have failed twice in crossing..........and imagine I will fail a third time [i have to many vices to become 'budda mind']......

AmounrA	07 Jan 2002
....so lets say the Egyptians where not phyically contacted by travellers from the sirian star system. Then there mythology and stories came from there imagination. But if inside is as limitless and connected as the outside, is it to far a push to suggest other beings from the universe are also playing within 'deep field' conciousness? My personally angle is that things like spirits are very real beings possibly meditating from 'distant shores'. I think the work of Dr John Lilly on Isolation tanks was most interesting. I would highly recommend his autobiography ' the scientist'.

AmounrA	07 Jan 2002
Heloo JMD. It seems we both posted at about the same time, so I missed you post whilst repling to SR. This thread is becoming rather large...I had a feeling that might happen when I noticed the original posting time/date '13 dec 3.33' . 333 is a interesting number as its important to buddists and Kabbalists[synchronicity]. I found this out once when A buddist temple of the Karmapa order. They had people doing 'full' retreat, and I was happy to be told that meant 3 years 3months 3 days. I like the word 'craftmenship' JMD....The devotion to the great work. I am reminded of that old saying 'freedom is a state of mind'.......and 'reality contains no chairs :-)

jmd	07 Jan 2002
Sanctum Sanctorum: 13 Dec 2001, 13:33 I must admit, I hadn't noticed it before! It is also interesting that 333, in some forms of esoteric Christianity, was the year in which Christ was due to have incarnated, but due to certain directions taken by humanity, was incarnated earlier. It is also linked to the number of the Archangel Michael... and hence the Sun, and hence back to the original first post! Also, if you add only the numbers which appear (13 2001 13:33), they make 17, the number of the Star, the other card mentioned in the original post!

AmounrA	07 Jan 2002
13 is quite interesting as well. I think the 13th degree of freemasonary ,the royal arch of soloman, is quite 'tipareth/solar in essence. The Apron for this degree is red with the eye in triangle eminating solar rays. Including Christ, wasn't there 13 in his 'gang'?....[ 1+7 equals 8= star sanctury/gate]......

jmd	07 Jan 2002
I haven't worn the 13th degree apron... and I do not recall what is said of it when entering the 18th... nor do I currently have immediate access to my relevant literature, but I'll look into it! With regards to Christ, if you include him as the central (and Solar) figure, there are certainly 12 + 1. That 1 + 7 equals 8, and that in Hebrew, 8 is cHeth, which can also 'mean' gate, is fine... but can one legitimately make of XVII an 8? This is of course where the use of the additive style of Roman numerals and our current use of the Hindo-Arabic ones do not quite match. Personally, I prefer, for the Major Arcana of the Tarot, the Roman additive, as therein are also concealed links which are asundered when substituted for the Hindo-Arabic ones.

AmounrA	07 Jan 2002
I say star gate because I did a ritual once, whist working with geometrical mandallas, where I had 2 squares intersected, then linked there point to form an 8-rayed star. The whole feeling I was getting was that this symbol was of sanctury. I therefore think of 8 as star gate.It could also be likened to a compass points. So in a synchronistic meaning to me XVII making 8 still makes sense [to me]. I personally find giving tarot cards numbers a problem, I read in a post [elsewhere] some-one mention that within each sphere there is contained a whole tree. I agree with this.In a sense you must cross the abyss of each sphere before progressing to the next sphere. Perhaps the tarot are the same, in that each is a reflection of a different angle of 'one'.Therefore to give each card numbers really is like counting 22 'ones'. Any card could be used as a 'pathworking' gateway, and therefore every card has a valid right to be any number, or rather, anycard can fill any position on the tree quite happily...[esp. if you veiw not so much the paths , but the tarot alligning as two per sphere]. For example if you where to be viewing the tarot /tree allignment from say Netsach, you may have 'empress/emperor in kether, but if veiwing from geburah, the same could not be said.

jmd	08 Jan 2002
This is quite fascinating, Amoun rA. Many years ago, I entered a 'spiritual Temple', in which I was 'told' certain things. One of these led me to use certain 'stars', one of which is the interlaced octagramme - ie, two interlaced squares - which I too feel is a symbol of sanctuary (but in my case, of a Earth/Malkuth type). There is also, which adds to your point, the seven stars around the central single major one, adding to eight. With regards to the view that within each sphere there is a whole Tree, and that the fulness of the Tree of a sphere must be partaken before ascending to the next sphere, I must admit that I tend to go along with that too... though the 'nature' of each Tree within each Sephirah is not, in my view, of the same quality as the Tree itself. Each card can of course be used, either singly or in combination with any other card(s), as gateways for inner work. Nonetheless, and though the earliest extent decks are not numbered, the 'traditional' numbering has merit! I also wonder if, placing the cards on the Tree, it is not that one would see placements differently if viewed from, for example, Pachad/Geburah, but that, as the cards do not intrinsically 'belong' there, each allocation leads to further and varying insights (and the same could also be said for astrological associations... as long as the artist allowed enough freedom for the viewer to make peculiar correlations him or herself).

AmounrA	08 Jan 2002
Intresting JMD, I think we can take it that the symbol does correlate to Sanctury. All adds to the inner school theory.[colllective evolutionary connectora :-)] The time I worked on the symbol I was working[living] very much within Tiphareth on the tree, which I would imagine why I was getting it 'star-sanctury', now I will think of it as 'sanctury'. [i think i may have to get some quality pathworking time and re-visit this symbol & star card]. The great joy I find using the tree map is that it allows the viewer to make many peculiar and [often at the time] meaningless connections, which later show up as the path ahead.......like lots of seperate pieces being worked on separatly that suddenly all make sense and fit together[ building a new door/gate]. I agree with you that the numbers on cards are useful, what card is the traditional number 8? I think this was one of the numbers Mathers changed. Is it Strength in traditional numbers? Numbers are facinating 'things'. They look like they should be a 'relative concept' but there does seem to be much deeper 'architect' using numbers to create/manipulate matter/structure[to put it awkwardly:-)]. I can recommend a very good book called 'Godel.Esher,Bach ;an eternal golden braid', by Douglas R.Hofstadter [pulished by penguin]. It is a pretty tough read , It took me 3 attempts before I finally got through it, but it well worth the effort.

jmd	08 Jan 2002
I read Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid, by Douglas R. Hofstadter, back in the 80s... and I agree that it is a great book, though I remember little of its specific contents! With regards to the interlaced squares, I do not totally agree with you: that we both have had experiences which may have shown the sanctuary aspects of the symbol does not limit its meanings to just this. But to truly reach that joy, also expressed as 'Eureka', when disparate parts are re-membered is, I must agree, quite sublime. Quote: With regards to the card numbering, and as you're probably aware, there is another thread which discusses this. The traditional numbering only uses additive Roman (9 is written VIIII, as IX would be the same as XI, or 1 and 10, in the additive style). The Fool is left un-numbered, partly as a result of the style of numbering (there is no zero in Roman). This, however, also adds to the non-definite positioning of a Jester/Fool. In those earlier numberings, Justice is numbered VIII (8) and Strength XI (11).

AmounrA	08 Jan 2002
Thanks for that link JMD, theres my answer ! You are quite correct, the sanctuary is only one aspect of the 8 rayed star symbol.[ i remember one meditaion where this symbol became a rotating golden 'ninja star', and thats not very sanctuary like! ] With regards to non -definite postion for the fool....thats makes it the 'wandering fool' :-) Speaking of roman numerals, I really like the way 5 =V, and 5 V's makes a pentagram [ silly i know].

jmd	11 Jan 2002
Five 'A's also make the pentagramme, hence its other name as the 'Pentalpha' (literally, 5-A). With regards to the V, Eliphas Levi makes an interesting observation in his Transcendental Magic, p274, in which the 5 As in 'ABRACADABRA' form the Pentagramme, and the 30 occurences of A in: ABRACADABRA ABRACADABR ABRACADAB ABRACADA ABRACAD ABRACA ABRAC ABRA ABR AB A can be written as a Hexagramme using Roman numerals (XXX), separating the middle X into a V and an inverted V thus: X[sup]^[/sup]X ..V.. (drawing it by hand is far more instructive!) As you said, the un-numbered Fool does make it the wandering Fool, which, in what is sometimes referred to as the Language of the Birds (through homophony), becomes the wondering Fool - the being who is Full of Wonder!

AmounrA	14 Jan 2002
ABRAHADABRA [he, daleth replacing 'c', he =5]. I did some digging and found on page 418 of magick BOOK4, 'The voices of the 5 the voices of the 6 elevan are the voices Abrahadabra' On page 419 of the same work I find -Abrahadabra=418 [numerically with hebrew letters]. the next page 421 I find - 'V.V.V.V.V is the light of the world itself, the sole mediator between god and man' In this classic double speak by Mr A.C I see references to the holy gaurdian angel. 418 is the number 'synchronicity central' has been toying me with for about a year now......bizzare!

jmd	15 Jan 2002
Just for the sake of other Forum readers who do not know the value of the Hebrew letters, here's how it equals 418: A=1 + B=2 + R=200 + A=1 + H=5 + A=1 + D=4 + A=1 + B=2 + R=200 + A=1 Total= 418 The Heh, however, replaces a Qoph in Hebrew... which is more usually written as ABRQDBRA (Q=100, so the total is 1+2+200+100+4+2+200+1= 510). With regards to the Light of the World, this is usually a title for Christ, to whom the Pentagramme has also at times been a symbol (apart from the five wounds of Christ on the cross, he is also sometimes represented as a pentagramme when he is referred to as the Representative of [wo+]Man). 25, which the 5 Roman Vs add up to, is also the traditional number of the Rose (being the epitome of a 5 X 5 petalled Rose), and hence links it to the Rosicrucian tradition. It is also interesting that 418 is also a number which is also associated with some forms of esoteric Christianity, with Christ in the centre, 'surrounded' on one side by the four evangelists, and by the 12 disciples. 13, being the number for Death, is also that which is conquered by the spiritual path. I'm grateful for your post, as I have very little of Crowley's works...

jmd	23 Jan 2002
I was just re-reading the above posts, and it occurred to me that some may not be aware as to the meaning of 'ABRA K'ADaBra' (which is, by the way, another common Hebrew spelling, and the one used by A. Kaplan). It 'simply' means that creation takes place through my word, or, as I speak, so I create. quite a powerful statement, definitely worthy of reflection. One can see why prestidigitators (ie, stage 'magicians') used such terms as they pulled, for example, a white rabbit out of a hat. That the spelling has variants is consistent with Kabbalistic tradition, for the Kabbalists would use whichever variant suited best the contextual gematrial needs (ie, the numerical value of the word, and its implications). The 'ABRA K'ADaBRA' totals 432 (A=1 + B=2 + R=200 +A=1 + K=20 + A=1 + D=4 + B=2 + R=200 + A=1). Through Gematria, and using just the three letters implied by this number, this results in ThBL, which is the created universe, the world. And how was it created? still within Kabbalistic tradition, and as just a quick exegesis of this three lettered word full of spice, Th refers to the physical world (and cross) through which the rose of the Torah (which opens with B and ends with L, and, as LB, also means 'Heart') comes.

AmounrA	23 Jan 2002
jmd, hello, I used to do a fair bit of study using gemantra a few years back, however I stopped because I became aware I would have to learn Hebrew to really get the most out of /do my own connecting with it. Do you know how to write Hebrew? With regard to 'creation takes place through my word/as I speak', they are indeed powerful 'words'. On reflection I wonder if it could be likened to not only spoken words, but also 'thoughts' in language. The first act of creation, the word , could then be compared to Language, perhaps the first creations using bio-'machines', where only attainable when universe developed a language. This is taking the view that the universe was created clean, ie a babe in the abyss. In an excellent book called 'genisis re-visited' Z.Sitchen says that if we take the 'days' of creation as meaning 'aeons' of creation, the early bible concepts of 'creation' can make more sense to a scienifically minded modern student. JMD, you say you don't have much of Crowleys work , but I highly suggest you try and get a copy of- "Magick.Book four[liber aba] parts I-IV, second revised edition. published by Weiser" I myself am no Crowley 'freak', but do have a great respect for him. This book is fairly expensive [i paid £70] but I have never regreted that expense, its cetainly the type of book you can open on a page, and get some level of interaction. [i am sure you can charge up some books and use them as 'tarot' books:-)]

jmd	04 Feb 2002
Looks like the first 36 posts of this thread have been lost in the transfer from Tarot Cards to Reading Tarot! In answer to your above question, I do not read nor write Hebrew fluently... and apart from significant words which recur in various Kabbalistic literature, I am near illiterate in Hebrew! But I do know, at least, the alphabet (or rather, alephBeth), many readily identifyable words, and I also at times play around with a Hebrew-English dictionary. Also, I know a number of people with Kabbalistic interests with varying degrees of knowledge. The days of creation have never been taken literally by Kabbalists, for even in early days, it was recognised that a year in the life of a human being is but a day (or sometimes a minute) in the eyes of the Lord! With regards to Liber ABA, I'll keep an eye out for it! Looking forward to more responses!

jmd	20 May 2003
Over a year in abeyance, and 36 posts gone, but the recent discussion in the Crowley Thoth; Opinions Sought! thread just reminded me of some of the discussions herein... and so like a Phoenix, having passed thought and consumed each of the decans of the wheel of life (Zöe diac), it arises once more for the input of newer members. With regards to XVII and XVIIII, why not begin afresh with these quotes from Crowley's Book of Thoth (p259): XVII Use all thine energy to rule thy thought: burn up thy thought as the Phoenix. XIX Give forth thy light to all without doubt; the clouds and shadows are no matter for thee. Make Speech and Silence, Energy and Stillness, twin forms of thy play. And so, what of the differences between the Star and the Sun - though astronomically classified as a star, the Sun, in terms of our very existence, has a living presence and importance quite different! And where to find the inner sacred temple's altar upon which to sacrifice - or render sacred - the Will of one's acts with the sensed and penetrating insight of Love!

firemaiden	20 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani I believe that there is a very high probability that the first cards, printed in Italy and/or France, were influenced by the proto-Freemasons (the Craft Guilds) and/or the Cathar Gnostics. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! The first time I have seen someone besides me on Aeclectic evoke the Craft Guilds. I didn't know the name in English, in French they are "compagnonages".

Diana	20 May 2003
firemaiden: It is not fashionable to evoke the Craft Guilds, which is why I suspect you haven't seen it before. (I have also learnt a new English word.) jmd: Thanks for bumping up this thread. I have read it twice in the last few months and regret those lost posts.

The Sanctum Sanctorum thread was originally posted on 12 Dec 2001 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.