Mithraism, Rider Waite and psychoanalysis

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Mar 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

isthmus nekoi	26 Mar 2002
I am avoiding doing a paper as usual - a different one this time! :P A girl in my Jungian class gave a discussion about Mithra and I was struck by the imagery which seemed to me to be totally related to the Moon card, as well as the Sun and the Devil and Death. Pardonez-moi if my psychanalytic/Jungian spin makes things confusing... the imagery is very rich and I'll try to touch on the most relavant pnts. I need to do more research, but these are just initial observations. In the Mithraic cult, we have this myth of the slaughter of the bull by Mithras. A popular image which I have seen many times is the man stabbing the bull (Taurus) while a scorpion (Scorpio) clamps onto its testicles, and a snake and dog are also present. There's also the imagery of the dadophors and horses which I'll get into. Psychologically, this myth represents instinct vs. instinct - the desire to return to the unconsciousness/Mother/lost object/imaginary etc and the desire to break out of an unconscious cycle towards a greater consciousness. It's incestuous b/c it's a return to the Mother but obviously not in a literal way! b/c both bull and Mithras are elements within the same psyche, this is a self-sacrifice which relates to myths concerning bulls, and the Mother Goddess/Son-Lover. Soooooooo having made the sacrifice, Mithras in a way dies himself but is reborn. Back to tarot! In the Moon card, here we have the dogs and this lobster/scorpion rising out of the unconscious. The dog is an important symbol in Mithra - hv to check this out later... Moon is a retreat to a weird unconscious world which must be navigated through properly in order to slay the bull as it were, to sever the identification with instinct. Scorpio/Taurus brings w/them their relation to the equinox so we are talking about energies of Death and Life. This is why I think the towers in the Moon are also in the Death card. Continuing to the Sun card! So we've survived the moon, we haven't been absorbed by the unconscious, and can now be reborn as the child, riding the horse - the libido (as in psychic energy, not sexual drive) tamed and conscious. Horses are a big deal in Mithra but again, I've got to research more into that. The Sun's red banner always reminded me of blood and sacrifice but in a celebratory way. Death also rides a horse... interesting. The child also wears the same feather as the Fool, so there's this connection to the possibility of a new world order, and the relation to the Mercurial boy-gods. Fool also walks w/a dog... Rewinding a bit to the Devil - so here we have a Pan-ish, Lilith-y God holding a torch which points downwards. This looks similar to the dadphors which actually come in 2 - a different one holds the torch upwards. The idea behind this is the active and the repressed libido (Devil obvious connected w/the repressed). Scorpio = the low torch Anyways, this page has a picture of the bas-relief I was talking about: http://www.well.com/user/davidu/mithras.html There are many different variations.

truthsayer	26 Mar 2002
wow! isthmus! i just love info like this. i made a copy of what you wrote to keep in my tarot notebook and bookmarked the website. the name mithras is striking a cord with me but i'm not sure i've got it right. have you ever watched the tv show "highlander" w/ that cute adrian paul who played duncan mcleod? it seemed there was a character named mithras who played the oldest living immortal. he was also one of the "4 horsemen of the apocolypse". one thing about that show is the writers really did the research. i never thought about the possible symbolism of the name mithras until now. i wish that show was in reruns here. maybe there's a highlander website i can check this out. aside from that, your theory sounds very plausible. i can't wait til you learn more about any tarot connection. i'm going to check, too.

isthmus nekoi	27 Mar 2002
Thnx for reading, truthsayer - I know this psychoanalytic stuff isn't everyone's cup of tea ^_^ I've never seen Highlander - it's a show about a woman and this sword?.... In any case, it's interesting you should mention the 4 horsemen b/c that is actually very related. The apocalypse is a very archetypal theme which relates to Mithra b/c of that whole death/rebirth cycle of the Mithras. We talked about 4 horses in class and how it relates to Mithra - Mithra has been taken up by Greeks (as well as other civilizations), so Mithras was related to the Sun god Helios who drove 4 horses. My prof was describing 4 elemental horses - fire (wands) being the most active one and earth (pents) being the slowest - and I thought, that is just like the 4 knights! Ooooooo I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was something like... the fire horse burns the mane of the earth horse which gets everything rolling.....!

Kiama	27 Mar 2002
Wow, lots of really cool stuff here you two! Wish I knew enough about the subject to comment, but alas, my well of wisdom is dry for the moment... Keep it up guys, this is interesting! Kiama

truthsayer	27 Mar 2002
isthmus, highlander was first a movie series starring christopher lambert as this scottish immortal who can only die if another immortal engages him in sword combat and cuts off his head. the winning immortal then steals his "energy" and becomes stronger. the story centers around preparing for the "quickening" and the "gathering" where the immortals remaining over the centers gather to decide who will rule the world. they often repeat in the show "there can be only one". since the movies were so popular they created a made for tv show that ran 4 years that was even hotter imho due to adrian paul. the main character was duncan macleod of the clan macleod. duncan is supposedly lambert's scottish cousin. every show you'd get flashbacks to different things he did over the 400 years he has been alive and how it impacts his present. lots of martial arts fighting, action and swordplay. nearly every show ended w/ a big sword fight and light show of fireworks where an immortal lost his head in the quickening. i know it sounds gory but the show was quite complex. the rock group Queen did the music. the most memorable theme was "no one wants to live forever" every time duncan lost another friend. the show is now called "highlander: the raven" and is about the immortal Amanda. i really don't like it as much as the tv show with adrian paul. i don't like the movies as much either. lambert doesn't do a thing for me. but i digress. one of duncan's immortal friends is an immortal named mithras who is around 2000 years old. he is also one of the 4 horsemen of the apocolypse. what you are saying is so fascinating. i've loved the highlander show for years but now it sounds like my deep love of mythology and psychology is going to give me a new reason to research the show even more. i've never quite put a finger on mithras place in the highlander saga until now. helps put a new slant on the "highlander fandom mythology". a highlander tarot deck would be very desireable to me to create. i think that duncan would prob be the fool since it's about his journey. i'm so excited!!!!! and next week is spring break so i'll have time to work on this!!! happy! happy! joy! joy! keep me up with what you are learning isthmus! :) you've made my week!

Rhiannon	27 Mar 2002
Just had to throw this in: sorry. Truth, you said the dude's name was Mithras and that the writers really did their research... don't you just love that? I read a book by Sheri S. Tepper once where one of the character's names was Laggy Nap. This particular character was a trader or "gifter". What he did was sell things and occasionally he'd throw in a "free gift". (Infomercial anyone?) The word Lagniappe means "added value, a free gift with purchase". Isn't that cool? I love when writers do that stuff. Sorry, digression over. You may now return to your regularly scheduled psychobabble. ;) (Just kidding, the story really IS cool! Keep posting!) Rhiannon :)

Pedeka	28 Mar 2002
Absolutely this is wonderful! I have always noticed the correlation between various myths and the tarot. (aside from a themed mythic deck) And the Jungian angle is wonderful... I have always associated the majors with Jungian archetypes. Im a bit rusty on Mythric legends.. time to dust some books off! Just a thought... doesnt reading tarot cards sometimes remind you of doing a Rorschac test? Thanks! Pedeka

isthmus nekoi	28 Mar 2002
Thanks for the info truthsayer, I knew I had seen something about Highlander somewhere...! So glad to have sparked you into research mode! A book that the girl who presented recommened was written by someone w/last name: Cumont. Not sure about the title, let me ask her. And now that you mention it, Pedaka - yeah inkblots - tarot can feel like one big mythic projection :P

truthsayer	28 Mar 2002
yes, i agree that tarot is like a rorsach (ink blot) test. afterall, it's purpose is to help us explore the unconscious just like the ink blot test. i've thought of it before but this is the first time that anyone else has mentioned it. nice to know i'm not completely in left field and others do think like me. ;) rhiannon, yes, i do love it when writers do their research and add a new dimension to an existing mythology. not to upset xena and hercules fans but i really didn't like the liberties taken w/ greek/roman mythology in those shows. i didn't know that these ancient ppls knew the martial arts or some form of it. sometimes writing liberties take away the authenticity of a show. it's always interesting and exciting when writers succeed in creating a new believable universe. an example of this is the babylon 5 series and farscape. sometimes one of the star trek series spin offs manages this and sometimes they don't. it took voyager and deep space 9 several years before i felt like they were authentic w/in their own created worlds. B5 seemed to do that fairly quickly even tho it was never as popular as star trek. what bothers me about star trek is the writers often do thinly disguised stories questioning modern practices. what comes to mind is a show done recently on Enterprize about big game hunting. yet last night they did one on first contact w/ the ferengis that i loved but the writers stayed w/in the created parameters of the star trek mythology. i'm not saying that we don't need to question things like big game hunting. i simply hate someone else to force their opinions/ideals on me in this way. this is why i stopped watching sitcoms except for those that didn't try to moralize w/ me over issues. i like making my own decisions. gads! look what you made me do, rhiannon! i went off on one of my rants on good entertainment writing.

Soraya	03 Apr 2002
Hi isthmus, I read your post with great interest. I have very little actual knowledge about psychology/psychoanalysis but I am very interested in the topic and to how it relates to the Tarot. (I have just started reading a book that links the Tarot and Jung's psychology, but am finding it very hard.) So I have been wondering if you could give me a few hints, from your class (what are you studying anyway) where I could start reading up on that kind of stuff (very basic). Hope to hear from you. Soraya

Rhiannon	03 Apr 2002
Quote: gads! look what you made me do, rhiannon! i went off on one of my rants on good entertainment writing. [/b] Hehehe! Your rants are great, truth! I was never a Xena or Hercules fan either. Too campy for me. I can understand why other people liked it though. Probably for the same reason my sister loves Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I can't stand it. I'm a vampire purist, it's only Anne Rice for me! LOL ;) I am a Star Trek fan too. Probably TNG was my fave. DS9 I only got into during the last few seasons when they really began exploring the whole Emissary thing w/Sisko. I liked Voyager but I didn't HAVE to watch it every Wed., you know? I don't know about you but I am not at all interested in this new Enterprise show. I like Scott Bakula, but each show is the same: Bakula says: "Hey, there's a planet! Let's go check it out!" and stuffy Vulcan chick says: "That would not be wise and is against protocol." And Bakula responds with: "Screw you, sister, we're going whether you like it or not!" LOL *rolls eyes* GREAT show! Ok, my rant's done now, somebody else's turn. :D Rhiannon :)

truthsayer	03 Apr 2002
[i am a star trek fan too. probably tng was my fave. ds9 i only got into during the last few seasons when they really began exploring the whole emissary thing w/sisko. i liked voyager but i didn't have to watch it every wed., you know? i don't know about you but i am not at all interested in this new enterprise show. i like scott bakula, but each show is the same: bakula says: "hey, there's a planet! let's go check it out!" and stuffy vulcan chick says: "that would not be wise and is against protocol." and bakula responds with: "screw you, sister, we're going whether you like it or not!" lol *rolls eyes* great show! ok, my rant's done now, somebody else's turn. :d rhiannon :) [/b][/quote] TNG was my fav, too. i've been hopelessly in unrequitted love w/ patrick stewart for at least 10 years! i think "insurrection" and "the wrath of khan" were my ST fav movies. just my opinion but they should have left spock dead. he was my fav classic character and it was the perfect way for him to die. the other classic treks w/ him just s***ed!!!!!!!! i can't stand william shatner either! i think sisko and the emissary thing was fascinating but i also loved the dax and worf marriage and nog being the 1st ferengi in star fleet. i can't tell you how happy i was when kai wynn died. i generally skipped shows she was on. her whole condescending manner and voice made me grit my teeth like hearing chalk scraping a chalkboard. i began enjoying voyager after they added the 7 of 9 character and the marriage of belana and what's his name. i think my big beef w/ enterprize is that jonathan archer is the whiniest and most self-righteous captain in the universe. it's no wonder topol questions his every decision. he can't get any respect unless he says,"that's an order!" and even then if i was on the crew i'd be laughing at him behind his back. he doesn't have the authoritarian presence of picard, recklessness of kirk, soulfulness of sisko, or martyr complex of janeway. archer's character just doesn't feel well defined. tripp is my fav character and seems to be the only one w/ real sense other than topol. sorry! but i just went off on another rant! i'll try to find something to post here later that stays on topic better. my bottom line is that i like it when shows stay consistently in the mythology of their created universe. if the show is going to explore mythology, don't pretend it's the real thing. i guess in this i'm a fundamentalist. i don't like seeing mythology and archtypes tampered w/ too liberally. i don't like seeing a mythology used to moralize over the writers issues!!!!!!! they can afford therapy!

isthmus nekoi	04 Apr 2002
Hi Soraya! I find Jung is pretty difficult to get into, and partially this is b/c it's much easier to grasp his concepts if you've *experienced* what he's going on about. It's sort of like the difference b/w reading about driving a car and actually doing it :P So don't be daunted by his stuff - it can be pretty twisted ^-^ Personally, I'd take interpretations of Jung w/a grain of salt. Too too often his theories are taken out of context and warped to prove other ppl's theories which is why Jung gets such a bad rap for creating a 'psuedoscience' and generally being an airy fairy mystic (in a derogatory way). Having said that, the writings of Edward Edinger, Joseph Campbell and Marie-Louise Von Franz are all excellent and are not nearly as difficult to understand as Jung himself! Books that may help: There's a lovely introduction by Frieda Fordham although it's out of print. It's very concise and if you can find it at the library or whatever, it's a good place to start. Man and His Symbols was written by Jung and others specifically for those not familiar w/psycha... although it gets specific on some topics and I don't feel it gives a really cohesive, general model for Jung's work (not the point of the book anyways). I hope this helps! I'm not sure what you mean by hints... To answer your question, the psycha course I'm taking is pretty hardcore/specific - the topic changes ea year according to the prof... we're looking into the correspondence of Freud/Jung (there is only one Freudian in the class - poor guy! :P)

Soraya	04 Apr 2002
Hi there, Thanks a lot for the advice. I'll see if I can find some stuff by those authors. I have always felt drawn to Jung's work, long before I discovered the Tarot and its connection to him. And I am definitely not a Freudian, although I live in the city where he lived and worked for most of his life. Cheers Soraya

Jewel	04 Apr 2002
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing and please keep on sharing. Truthsayer, I love your idea of a "Highlander" Tarot ... see if you can get that drop dead gorgeous adrian paul to pose for you ;) ... hey I'll come help you ~giggles~. And like you I am also a Star Treck TNG fan ... too bad it had to end.

truthsayer	04 Apr 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel Truthsayer, I love your idea of a "Highlander" Tarot ... see if you can get that drop dead gorgeous adrian paul to pose for you ;) ... hey I'll come help you ~giggles~. no disrespect, jewel but if i get my paws err...hands on adrian paul do you actually think i'm letting anyone know? ;) God but what a scorching hottie!<<<<>>>> my husband actually bought me a Highlander kit one time that had a t-shirt, bloopers reel and original show. they sent me catalogues for a long time. prices were outrageous! now if i've kept a few of those catalogues...wheels turning... back on topic, as far as easier to understand jung books go, his autobiography "memories, dreams, and reflections" is my favorite. it's so deep but still easier to understand than other stuff. i agree about joseph campbell and marie-louise von franz. i believe von franz acutally worked w/ him while he was still living. there are also jungian websites that breaks the info down into a more digestible form.

All Is One	04 Apr 2002
Isthmus, thank you 100 times for the link to the Mithras site! I am a long time student of the Minoan culture on Crete, and the Labyrinth, the Minotaur. . . it all seems related . I've been obcessed with the Palace of Knossos, and the Minoans since I was 12 and read a book by Mary Renault called The Bull Dancers, although I may have the title wrong after all these years. It's the story of Theseus the king, captured and forced to become one of the bull dancers who faced the Minotaur on Crete, actually vaulting up and over the huge horns. Eventually he is led from the Labyrinth (my real obcession) by Ariadne, who uses a spider web to lead him. This heroic quest/ rebirth/initiation cycle leads him back to his part of Greece, where he becomes King as he was originally intended to do, but, obviously wiser. I, too, am rambling and ranting- and I'm going back to the link you gave to see about ordering the book on Mithras (Minos?) Thanks again, and love the Jungian - more more more, please?

Pedeka	04 Apr 2002
IMHO...Jung has a bad rap. He was so overused and overrated and abused, that his work is now underrated to make up for it. I find that his book 'Flying Saucers' is a good place to start before you jump into his heavier things. His theories about UFOs as collective symbolic expressions of fear lead up to the use of tarot cards to visually represent mans many common and shared experiences. OMG Did I just use "bad rap" and "collective symbolic expressions" in the same post? ouch. Pedeka

isthmus nekoi	04 Apr 2002
truthsayer> yes, von Franz studied w/Jung and I think Jung's wife who was also really into psycha. vF's work on alchemy and fairy tales are highly recommended ^_^ Very accessible and insightful! All Is One> You're very welcome! You know, I'm so dense, I *totally* missed the connection w/the Minotaur :P Since Mithras was big in Greece, there is a great possiblity of cross over, diffusion etc. Hm. The whole bull imagery seems to have permeated a lot of different cultures. But back to the Minotaur - now there's a fascinating myth that taps into a lot of themes! There's the old king dying and the new king arising (Theseus' father kills himself b/c Theseus forgets to take down the black sails on his ship which signified his death)... Huge alchemical Jungian thing, but I'm not too familiar w/it. Oooo and the labrynth - meandering and conveluted (sp!) pathway to the center of the soul :P I believe the labrynth is *underground* in Knossos... perhaps labrynth is connected to the Moon phase - her domain is very *twisted*! Actually, maybe you can help me out: Is Ariadne related to Arachne who challenges one of the Goddesses (is it Athena) by declaring her weaving is better? Pedeka> I totally agree! I think there are soooo many misconceptions regarding both Freud and Jung - ppl will just accept something as 'fact' if they hear it often enough!

All Is One	09 Apr 2002
Isthmus; the Labyrinth is often depicted in ancient rituals as a symbolic form of rebirth- the literal experience of walking down into the spiral twisting path (most are in some form of a spiral) which generally descends into the earth or is underground, then the ascent, is compared to the process of descending to the underworld, or simply to the state before birth, so the earth is akin to the womb. The process of ascencion from the heart of the labyrinth is usually compared to the process of being born. (Nothing as silly as modern "born again" people, but I'll try and *gulp- sound of Alison biting her tongue- and OUCH* keep my personal prejudices to myself, at least in this post! Yes! I have read similar myths and myth discussions where Ariadne is the same person/goddess as Arachne. . .the book I got my obcession from was written for a very general audience- "historical fiction" so she tamed it and all that. I'm so glad you reminded me of the black sails- it was in there too. Also- there were actual real people called King Minos (several in sucession, I think (not sure- but at least one very powerful). The King Minos was the actual king, but the Minotaur (considered a legend) was said to be this enormous half man half Bull, who lived IN the labyrinth on Crete, which was built under the extremely sophisticated (they had running water on the second story of the palace!!) Palace of Knossos. I've been there, and a man named Shliemann (terribly misspelt) who uncovered the palace, did some incredible partial reconstruction, which I loved, because you could actually sit in the Queen's room, see the huge murals re-painted on the walls, and walk the labyrinth...which was built completely underground, but now lies in open air, the walls only three to five feet tall, and no thing over it. The palace and the Minoan culture, they believe, were destroyed in a huge earthquake, and the resulting fire (there are 10+ feet high clay vats where oil was stored beneath the palace...) quite a lesson in fire safety! The quake and the actual disappearance of the Minoan culture is a mystery. I know the Minitaur was said to have become enraged over something - possibly Theseus' trickery- and gone berserk (as those darn Minotaurs tend to do!) Minotaur was said to rule the sea- you can find all kinds of myths about the stuff they sacrificed to him to calm the storms, many herd of wild horses were driven into the sea ( his special favorite) but I can imagine quite a few other living creatures were sacrificed. Remember the fate of Agamamnon's daughter, Iphigenia: sacrificed by her father's sword just because he wanted a strong wind from Poseidon to sail to Troy and kill people! Do you have or have you read the Mithras book advertised on the site you gave? Is it good? I'm very interested. Alison (studying Tarot will keep you Jung forever . . . .) *could not stop myself! teehee*

All Is One	09 Apr 2002
Moon was definitely related... The huge stone horns that were the Minoan's monument over their palace were in a shape of a crescent moon, and represented both moon and Minotaur's horns. There's ALOT of stuff on this and on labyrinths in general- I actually know more than a few people who have constructed them as group projects, and on Beltane or even on the Christian New Year's Eve, they walk them as a ritual of renewal! These are not even formal Pagans. . . one was my last therapist. (Central Coast of Calif. is a pretty "eclectic" mix of people.

isthmus nekoi	09 Apr 2002
Thanks for all the info, All Is One! Have you ever read Campbell's Hero w/a Thousand Faces? You might like it. It's possibly his most famous publication and deals w/mythic themes etc. Don't recall whether he goes specifically into Mithraism though. The only thing is - granted it's been awhile since I read the text - I found it very male-centric. This whole epic Solar Hero descent. I find it different from myths dealing w/the Female descent (this is not to say only guys can do the male descent and girls are restricted to the female descent - the polarization of gender difference doesn't have to translate directly to biological sexual difference...) You went to Crete?! Augh I am soooo jealous! My sister just went there this spring and she was talking about how she saw all those pictures they have in the textbook gah! More about Minotaur> If I recall correctly, the whole reason we have a Minotaur was b/c King Minos didn't sacrifice the white bull from Posiedon (wrong sp - the god of the sea!!) like he was supposed to. That's like not giving thanks to your uncon. Baaaaaaaad move. For those interested, Minotaur came about when angry Posiedon made Pasephae (augh spelling these Greek names!!) fall in love w/the bull. She convinces Dedalus (father of Icarus, sneaky inventor) to create a body of a cow so she can have sex w/the bull and the result is the 1/2man 1/2bull Minotaur... King M was of course horrified and shoved Minotaur into the labrynth... And more about those horns - that's what we see on the Goddess Isis's head, as well as The High Priestess. It also refers to the three phases of Female - maiden/mother/crone, thereby linking the lunar mysteries w/the 3 Fates, the Erinyes, Hecate etc. Unfortunatly, I haven't read the book in question. Haven't had time to research what w/exams looming over my head. T_T

All Is One	09 Apr 2002
That was great stuff! The more time you can spare us from your exams, the more the Universe will reward your efforts with heaping globs of shining light to illuminate your knowledge when you most need it!!! (thus shall I say it and plant the seed in the fertile field of your unconcious, OK?) Good luck on exams, and thanks for the info on the origin of the Minotaur...I have forgotten most of the Greek myths I used to know. I went there when I was 16 (like, years ago...) for 3 months with a group of kids and 2 teachers. Best thing that ever happened to me. Hope you get to go. If your sister has photos that fit the subject, can you post them? Alison

isthmus nekoi	11 Apr 2002
Hm. I like that idea. The more time I spend at aeclectic, the better my grades will get :P My exams have a big gap between this one and the others so hopefully I'll have some spare time to go to the library to find that Mithraism book my classmate used. I moved out so I don't see my sister so much. I'll ask her about the photos though. I know she has one of the dolphin mural but I can't remember if it's a postcard or not......!

All Is One	11 Apr 2002
This whole labyrinth/Mithras/reminders of the Knossos experience is getting out of control. I dreamed about the palace last night-nothing specific... and now you mentioned the Dolphin mural- which is in the Queen's room, isn't it? I'll get on web and try to find some photos showing the horns/moon, and I love the tiny thrones they reconstructed... I'm probably way off subject here. Ithink I'll try and dig up the 10.95 for the Mithras book I saved in favorites from the link you gave awhile back. Old obcessions never die, they just lurk in the back of your brain and wait their chance!

isthmus nekoi	15 Apr 2002
I'm afraid I have to be quick: Franz Cumont: The Mysteries of Mithra. 1956 David Ulansey: The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World. 1989 my classmate said she liked the 1st book better... ah, what would we do w/o obsessions? :P

isthmus nekoi	05 Jul 2002
OK, after reading up a bit on Mithraism, there are some more pnts of interest. - I know I talked about the animals, the dog, scorpion and bull and apparently there isn't much known about what they represented. However, the dog is often depicted guiding Mithras, and is taken as a faithful companion. Because the origins of Mithras is unknown and it spread relatively wide, there are variations. One of these depicts the dog licking the blood from the bull's wound, only wheat emerges instead of blood. Wheat is a major symbol of fertility goddesses, esp in relation to Isis/Osiris and the Empress card. There's also a variation of the scorpion actually drinking semen from the dying bull - the passing from Taurus to Scorpio? - There's an interesting side note about horses. I'm already forgetting the details :( but I think... Mithras drives a sun chariot w/4 horses. The furthest, the fire horse, orbits the fastest, and the slowest walks in a circle, like following its tail. Kinda like the 4 knights but I suppose that's stretching things. - We can also read the transition from moon to sun as related to the Mithras story in which Mithras, the sun god, defeats his incestuous indentification w/the moon/bull. - those dadophors (torch bearers) are present throughout Mithra's journey. Maybe this relates to illumination, Lucifer being the lightbringer? So there's the duality - the illumination and the repressed libido. - Mithraic ceremony is very interesting b/c of the places of their rituals: underground caves (very womblike no?) which were not condusive to large gatherings. But this is really deviating from tarot so I'll stop myself now ^_~

tigerlily	05 Jul 2002
Truthsayer: the immortal's name was Methos, not Mithras, so - no connection there. Fascinating thread, but I'll have to come back to it tomorrow, it's so late that I can't think straight ...

Cerulean	13 Jul 2003
While this also says "alchemical' there are supposed to be 22 engravings that also has 'mithras' symbology as far as the engraving/designers were concerned: http://www.trigono.com/tarots/tarocco-secolo-XVII.htm Can you see anything similar? It doesn't look like the book that I saw in the Stanford bookstore about ancient Mithras cults during the 1st century...although there is a bull-like figure in one sample. I hope this adds to the discussion. I like it when people use old medieval or alchemical engravings to illustrate a tarot concept. What do you think? Mari H.

isthmus nekoi	14 Jul 2003
Hm... the scans are small so there are probably a lot of details I can't see. I don't see anything Mithraic save the dagger by the bull... It's too bad they didn't scan the Hermit card on that site... Yup, caves were a big deal in Mithraism. I imagine a grossly simplistic (Freudian) reading, would analyze the cave rituals as a 'return to the womb'.

DeLani	15 Jul 2003
Not too into Mithraism - patriarchal soldier-cult and all - but I found that astrological info extremely fascinating! Thanks so much for posting this! All is One: I'm so jealous! I have always had some sort of attraction to Crete and Cretan stuff, but never could find much about it. You actually went there! O my gosh! Please post pics! Back to the subject at hand, why don't you do a paper on this topic? Tarot symbolism and Mithraic mythology, from a Jungian perspective? Or, how Mithraic symbolism might have "bled" into Tarot artwork? I've done papers on much more esoteric stuff...and I usually get pretty good grades. Keep it up, DeLani

Cerulean	15 Jul 2003
...the Etruscan tarot with Sylvia Alasia and Riccardo Minetti has that ancient Greek-Etruscan vase coloring in black and red pottery and painting archetypes...anyway, that was the closest tarot that I could find artwise to other beautiful Minoian art samples from the Palace of Knossis...I had an old National Geographic with such beautiful details and did a few collages to analyze the colors and scenes. I read it was heavily restored. I could see people deriving inspiration from the beautiful colors and aged palace murals...but if someone did a storyline with a Mithros hero walking through a heroic archetype journey, what historic art would best illustrate it? Would ancient palace art from Knossis be the best style? There seems to be more a sofer delicacy to those paintings, although the colors are gorgeous. Sorry if I sound confused...many different threads. The stone carvings I saw in one book on Mithros art seemed to be in catacomb chambers, so it was dark and shaded detail and black and white photos. It was by David Ulansey: The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World. 1989. Mari H.

isthmus nekoi	15 Jul 2003
That *would* make an interesting tarot deck, esp if they focused on all those little sects (Dionysian, Elusian etc) before they were more or less absorbed by Christianity. I read somewhere over on the history forum that Mithraic imagery could have gotten into tarot through Christianity.

Minos	16 Jul 2003
<> Forgive me for being over-literal, but where did the mother come in? <> Is every sacrifice by definition a self-sacrifice? This would make Christianity the paradigm for all religion, which I'm not sure is the best methodology. <> Again, this would seem to be an assumption derived from Christianity.

isthmus nekoi	16 Jul 2003
Minos, I'm writing from a psychoanalytical (note, *not* psychological or psychiatric) perspective - so Mother is used in the old school Freudian/Jungian way (mother=plenitude, pleasure, absorbtion in the uncon, or undifferentiated consciousness). But I'm definetely not saying this is the only way to interpret things (which would be pretty awful). If you take the myth from a different perspective, this is certainly *not* a self sacrifice. I can't even think of how you would interpret it as a self sacrifice unless it's through psya (although I'm sure it can be done lol). However, from a Freudian or Jungian reading, the ego (Mithras), must sever its connection to the unconscious/Self archetype (bull) and thus, b/c Mithras is a part of the bull (ego absorbed in Self), murdering the bull would represent a self sacrifice of sorts, and Mithras is reborn in the sense that the ego is now liberated from the Self - the birth of consciousness. But the self sacrifice/rebirth thing is only from this wacky psya viewpoint ;)

Minos	17 Jul 2003
<> You're trying too hard. (Hint: cave.) ;) Though I'm still not sure that it's a *return* to the Mother. Have to think about that. Here's something though: One of the few reliable ritual details we do know about Mithraism is that at some key point a bull would be sacrificed over an initiate in a pit. The meat of the sacrificed bull would be laid on the spread-out hide of the bull and partaken of by the brethren. It is easy to fall into the trap of making a too-close connection between this and the Roman Catholic eucharist. But I think it does somehow strike at what we're pondering over. Somehow... <> Why is the bull ego absorbed in self?

isthmus nekoi	18 Jul 2003
<> :P One of my guilty pleasures is reading everything from a totally Freudian perspective lol. Oh so literal. <> I reread my post, and it's unclear - what I meant was Mithras' act of slaying the bull is a stand against the desire to return to the Mother. <> That is interesting - so basically, the initiate watches the bull getting slain from below? When it's done, does the initiate get to crawl out from under or something? b/c the low vantage point suggests to me identification w/the bull. <> Hmmmm. Perhaps eating the bull symbolizes mastery over the Self/Mother, or absorbing a part of the Self/Mother, the ego maintaining a connection w/Self? <> I hate to get so.. label-y but if you think of Mithras=ego and bull=Self, then maybe what I wrote will make more sense? Mithras & the bull are the part of the same psyche from a psya standpoint.

Cerulean	18 Jul 2003
...Folchi's Tarot Mithological does the same thing you are doing with the idea it is a 'game'. Hope you are not offended by classical figure art, that is unclad statues--the Minotaur is also featured: http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/mitolog.html I didn't realize until now, but you are writing--please excuse this my superficial labeling-- 'ancient and classical Greek-Roman myth' interpretation where the allegory is looked at from the psychological slant of a 19th century Victorian perspective--as if by classical Sigmund Freud. Folchi has a deck that does the same thing and I was actually entertained, as many psychological-tarot slants of the 1980's through early 1990's seem to look at myths as a neo-Jungian and transitioning from the "Robert-Graves to Joseph Campbell" outlook. And that is interesting, as the pre-industrial style of Rider Waite of the early 1900s might have some interesting psychological influences...? Yeats/Waite/McGregor and the Smith were more Irish, I thought, but their use of design and myth might still be still along the lines of an older psychological perspective. My early classes were geared toward Jean Piaget and learning behavior, so Freud was just one of those historical outlooks that one looked at in the introductory class. It wasn't my major and it's been over 15 years. I actually heard people still sometimes use Jean Piaget's learning theories... Hope this isn't off topic. I showed the Folchi art deck to a second generation Italian friend of a friend and he thought the art was classical in design, but modern in color. I'll read this post again and check out the points with Folchi's art deck. Thanks for renewing my interest in that deck--I was having trouble with mixing some Greco-Roman interest decks with my other ones.

Maan	18 Jul 2003
I always love to see things come together like this. Its like there realy is one univesal truth only pictured different althrough the world O and Truthsayer....i love highlander too. I was actually really smitten ;) Anyway wasn't his name not Mythos? I thought he was the coolest caracter in the show. I believe his name is Peter Wingfield...he had a very small part in the last x man movie......my friends did not understand why i was suddenly standing and shouting..."thats Mythos!!!!" ;)

Minos	19 Jul 2003
<> Yes! I mean, one of the key points about Mithraism was that it was an all-male secret society. There's a definite sense of a resistance to the feminine, and a desire to 'return to' a mythical time when the sexes lived separately and Mithras could cavort with his pals the Sun and the various animals and slay bulls and not have to worry about coming home for dinner on time. (Compare Greek depictions of satyrs.) It's hard to catalog all the gender ambivalences in Mithraism. It's an all-male club (one votive inscription says "Mithras hates women") but it's held in a *cave*; but the bull is castrated by a scorpion, etc. <> He's in a pit and the bull is over the pit. It's supposed to purify him from his past misdeeds and make him blameless before the gods for something like 20 years. The Mithraists borrowed it (called a 'taurobolium') from the cult of Cybele, the Great Mother (more grist for your mill!), as did many other late ancient mystery cults. <> Well also, in laying the bull-hide out on the cave for a dining surface, there's a kind of renewal of said cave with 'living' tissue. <> No! I'm a gruff old philologist! ;)

Minos	19 Jul 2003
<> 'Nother thing about Mithras is that he's a culture-hero; that is, a legendary bringer or founder of culture. Every society has at least one, usually a few (in America, they might include George Washington, Johnny Appleseed, etc.) Mithras is, at his origin in Persia, long before the Roman cult of him was dreamed of, the god of contracts. Even into his Roman worship, he is often depicted shaking hands. The contract is the bedrock of society, etc. etc., you get the idea... Now, one of the key distinctions that the classical world rested upon was nature vs. culture. The bull, clearly, is a figure of nature. The impending castration by the scorpion only serves to emphasize this. This opposition is related to other ancient oppositions, which we can put into a table: ----A-----------------B---- Culture---------Nature Male------------Female Victor---------Vanquished Not all of these were simple and they worked out different ways in various contexts - especially the oh-so complicated nature-culture opposition. But that's how they generally worked, and that's how they seem to work in Mithraism. Since Mithras falls into column 'A' in two of the three cases, he thus can be said to take on a male role, and the bull a female one. But as always, it's not so simple. The scorpion, in addition to threatening castration, also calls attention to the bull's genitals, emphasizing its maleness. So this 'male'/'female' power dynamic takes place within a markedly all-male context. (Let me emphasize that I'm not saying things should be gendered this way; this is how Romans generally thought.) Then again, Mithras is a beautiful young man, who would be desirable as the passive (i.e. 'female') partner in a same-sex relationship. So many paradoxes! And I'll be damned if I know what to do with them. So I will gracefully exit, and leave this to the psychoanalysts. ;)

isthmus nekoi	20 Jul 2003
Mari, glad you're plugging into the Folchi... You know, I never thought of how psya influenced the development of esoteric systems. I know Jung was into I Ching and astrology (not tarot though :() and heavily into alchemy to the point where it's like there isn't another body of discourse to interpret Western alchemy. Freud wouldn't touch this sort of thing w/a 10 foot pole. His view of the numinous was that it was an infantile desire to return to mommy's breast :P In a way, I can see his point, but that's hardly the only reason ppl are religious or spiritual. Having said that, F was much more influential than J and still is. I'd put Freud, Darwin and Marx up as the founders of Western discursivity, I can't imagine that guys like Crowley would have ignored F....

isthmus nekoi	20 Jul 2003
<> Damned if I know either, but who doesn't enjoy a game of intellectual gymnastics ;) And you've raised many paradoxes...^_^ I think that's the beauty of religion or myth - it's ability to *contain* paradox. Maintaining ambiguity in form/symbol whilst maintaining the differentiation b/w extremes is paramount. Go either way and you've lost it. <<'Nother thing about Mithras is that he's a culture-hero; that is, a legendary bringer or founder of culture>> Mithras is also heavily connected to the male solar gods, Apollo etc. I once read this book (although it seemed incredibly biased to me) that basically delineates the female principal via myth/art throughout prehistory to like... the dark ages. In a nutshell, the lunar/female symbol degrades as the solar/male myth rises. Here you find many myths where the 'beast' is slain - whether it's Mithras or St. George (?) and the dragon. The problem is that this book is far too literal in its conception of gender. Like you've pointed out, both bull and Mithras are ambiguous in gender (although obviously not to the point where they are hermaphroditic). Anyways, to get to the point, correlating w/this gross generalization of the rise in the solar hero myth/rise in consciousness, comes the rise of civilizations, so agriculture certainly must have very important ties to Mithraism (as well as to most myths/religions around this time) - agriculture being more or less necessary to sustain a civilization. I would say this is less about gender, and more about levels of consciousness, although in Western discourse, females have always been associated w/the uncon - the secretive, the dark, the shifting, the irrational etc. Naturally, taking this too literally is very very problematic. (*cough* Freud) So, I would equate your binary nature-culture with unconscious ego-conscious ego. Another thing I've noted: Scorpio/Taurus (Scorp and Bull) are opposing signs in the zodiac, and both rule over resources. Taurus rules the height of spring, whilst Scorpio rules over the height of autumn - the planting and the harvest. Birthing and dying. The Scorpion (harvest) lynches out the semen (fertility) of the Bull.

catti	02 Aug 2003
this isnt exactly related but somewhere in reading through this post i started remembering long forgotten links between egyptian and greek mythologies....forgot history...at some point the native egyptian pharoahs are replaced and that is when egyptian mythology becomes fused with greek (?) hathor/isis= egyptian io =greek europa= greek zeus = bull god= greek now i know all of these are long after crete but in these myths i believes are echoes of the myth you are discussing. just some more paradox and riddle.

The Mithraism, Rider Waite and psychoanalysis thread was originally posted on 26 Mar 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.