Thoughts, feelings, and moods

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Aug 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Poetlove	21 Aug 2002
The other day I was going to pick up my tarot cards, but I was feeling depressed, and sad. I didn't want that to rub off on the cards. Was I being silly, or will that happen. I am sure it would have shown in the reading, but does the cards remember that feeling and carry it with them? I believe there is more to the feeling, and the karma surrounding the decks. Thanks for putting up with my silly questions :D

Keslynn	21 Aug 2002
Good question, Poetlove, and I'm sure there's a wide range of opinion on the topic. Personally, I don't think that you can rub your feelings onto the cards, at least in a way that would make it stick. I often find that handling the cards (not reading, just shuffling and looking) when I'm upset helps to calm me. I would hope that it wouldn't "ruin" those decks with bad feelings! ;) However, I do believe that the cards can attune on a very high level when a reading is done. If I do not properly calm myself before a reading, the reading often will reflect my upset more than it will answer the question. Many reversed cards or seemingly nonsensical answers are usually indicators of mental turmoil. So, if you're feeling upset and you think the cards will soothe you, then by all means pick them up. Just be careful to wait until you're calm to do readings. But that's just my opinion. :) Kes

Mojo	21 Aug 2002
Tarot Cards are made out of cardboard and ink and maybe a little lamination. As far as I can remember from my biology classes, none of these have much capacity for memory.

Laurel	21 Aug 2002
When I was a lot younger, I would give myself readings when I was melancholy or moody and regret it because I would interpret the cards in a similar vein and now justify my sour or pathetic mood. GIGO. Laurel

Ravenswing	21 Aug 2002
to mojo-- if we go down a level deeper, tarot cards are made of atoms, which consist of electrons. according to the lastest quantum mechanics, electrons have memory. to poetlove (what a beautiful name!) -- only the unasked question is silly. the cards are your most intimate friend. don't be afraid to share with them. raven

emily2otters	21 Aug 2002
i'm in agreement with laurel and keslynn -- reading cards when you're feeling yucky can be ill-advised. i find that the tarot is not very gentle in those times when i really need some gentling. i wouldn't worry so much about your mood rubbing off on the cards, though... a good shuffle or some time spread out in the sun can cure most anything that ails a deck. :)

Jenny-Li	21 Aug 2002
I don't think it rubs off on your cards, and I do think using the cards as a comfort let the deck be a friend who can give you an alternative perspective on the issues that are getting you low. The only thing that I could imagine would make the deck be filled with negativity, is if you for a long time would ONLY pick up your deck when you're feeling sad, but I don't think that's what you would do is it...? So don't be scared to let your cards near you, whatever you are feeling at the moments. The cards are pretty tough, they can handle it...! ;) Light and love, and hope you feel better soon... Jenny :)

renard	21 Aug 2002
Poetlove: I find that the cards tend always to surprise me, and help me look at the circumstances surrounding my more pathetic moods from a new perspective. The only time it's seemed to me -- at the moment -- that my mood was rubbing off on the cards was when I've fallen into the trap of obsessively asking the same question over and over. -- generally because I didn't like the answers I was getting! I've had the cards start to seem very, very dark at those times (tower, death, swords galore, ugly reversals, yadda yadda yadda), but I think it was because I kept asking about a really terrible course of action, hoping for a positive answer. And the darn things simply would not cooperate and tell me, "Yes, go jump off a cliff! Everything will turn out great!" So that's my two cents' worth. If the cards seem very dark, look both at the assumptions you're bringing to your interpretation of them -- even death and the devil can be beacons of hope -- and to the questions you're asking. Hope that's some use! Namaste -- renard

Kazz	23 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn I often find that handling the cards (not reading, just shuffling and looking) when I'm upset helps to calm me. However, I do believe that the cards can attune on a very high level when a reading is done. If I do not properly calm myself before a reading, the reading often will reflect my upset more than it will answer the question. :) Kes Just the opinion that i was about to give:) That is exactly what I think also Cheers Kazz :TQC

Maan	23 Aug 2002
When i'm depressed i sometimes ask the cards Why and what i can do about it. It has never brought me negative experiences when doing this. Most of the time its chears me up cause i can take my situation in my own hand again!

jamesriouxctm	23 Aug 2002
Hello all, While the thought that things are interconnected on a quantum level is an appealing one, and would explain many properties of Tarot and other related divinatory systems, I just wanted to point out for the record that nothing in quantum mechanics says that electrons have "memory". Indeed, being fermions with half-integer spins, all electrons are physically identical and indistinguishable. You can switch any two electrons in a system and the system will be unchanged, as far as any observer can tell. (Technically speaking, this is because the Schrodinger equation is symmetric with respect to particle exchange operations.) So either all electrons have exactly the same "memory", or they have none at all. I favor the latter. This does not mean that quantum effects have no bearing on the Tarot; indeed, a phenomenon like entangled states (something Einstein referred to as "spooky action at a distance") would be a very nice explanation of how a Tarot reading can transcend time and space separation between reader and client. It's just that the specific example given above does not hold truth. Incidentally, if anyone has any questions about what QM and modern physics really says about Tarot and the occult, fire away. I'm just about to start my fourth year in quantum physics, and I'd like to believe that I have a fair idea of what's going on. Anyway, in relation to the original question, I am of the opinion that any negativity that appears to "rub off" on the cards while you're in a bad mood is probably just the result of you seeing the cards the way you expect to see them. When your mood returns to normal the cards will also return to their ordinary behaviour, not because they have changed, but because you have changed.

Molly	23 Aug 2002
Dear James, Thank you for taking the time to write all that! I know nothing about physics and QM but it is fascinating to me... It was my favorite chapter in Tarot: History, Mystery, and Lore. And I had no idea what I was reading because it was the first I had heard of such things [have not made it to college yet :-( Anyway, I just thought that was really interesting.

Trogon	29 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Poetlove The other day I was going to pick up my tarot cards, but I was feeling depressed, and sad. I didn't want that to rub off on the cards. Was I being silly, or will that happen. I am sure it would have shown in the reading, but does the cards remember that feeling and carry it with them? I believe there is more to the feeling, and the karma surrounding the decks. I have to preface my remarks with the comment that I am still something of a novice to the Tarot. That being said, I agree with most of the respondents that the primary affect on your Tarot deck and how a reading comes out will be your current mood/feelings. However, even cardboard, ink and plastic can be affected by outside energies - lay them in the sun and they get warm, heat them enough and they burn - can't they also be affected by a person's emotional energies? Now, that being said I will relate an experience of my own. A little while back, after I had begun studying the Tarot, and had already purchased 2 decks of my own, my mother thought it would be nice to give me her old deck, an old Rider/Waite deck, which she had had for quite a long time, but also had not used for a long time. Now my mother is a very negative person and she and I have a lot of unpleasantness in our mutual past (though for the most part we now get along together most of the time). In spite of all this, I decided to try her deck. I tried it a couple of times for daily readings for myself and one Celtic Cross reading for a friend. I all three instances I was unable to get positive results - everything came out looking negative to me and the readings felt... well the word "muddy" leaps to mind when I think about it. Now... was this because the cards had been affected by my mother's negative energies? Or... was I being affected by the negativity of my own past history? Anyone care to comment on this? Trogon

Mojo	29 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Trogon However, even cardboard, ink and plastic can be affected by outside energies - lay them in the sun and they get warm, heat them enough and they burn - can't they also be affected by a person's emotional energies? No. They're playing cards. I don't care what kind of metaphysical beliefs you people have, it still remains that paper and ink and lamination are not capable of conscious or unconscious thought, emotion, memory, or intent. They're cards. Period. Full Stop. If you are having a reaction to a deck owned by your mother, you are being affected by YOUR relationship with your mother and the connection with her possessions. Own it, understand it, and deal with it. The cards are just cards. They don't care who uses them. They're not capable of caring. Tarot requires a combination of right brain and left brain activity. If you are having an emotional reaction to a deck of cards, you're just using the right brain and ignoring the left brain (or vice versa if you're left handed). You need to learn to balance both halves. Sorry for the harsh tone, but this is one of my biggest pet peeves about these forums. Not everyone who practices Tarot believes in metaphysics. And now that we're paying for using these forums, I'm not as willing to hold back my comments when things strike me as outrageous.

Trogon	29 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Mojo No. They're playing cards. I don't care what kind of metaphysical beliefs you people have, it still remains that paper and ink and lamination are not capable of conscious or unconscious thought, emotion, memory, or intent. They're cards. Period. Full Stop. If you are having a reaction to a deck owned by your mother, you are being affected by YOUR relationship with your mother and the connection with her possessions. Own it, understand it, and deal with it. The cards are just cards. They don't care who uses them. They're not capable of caring. Yes Mojo, you're probably right about the problem being in my own thoughts and feelings - and in fact I had mentioned that as a probability - I was simply wondering out loud about the other possibility. There is no doubt in my mind, what-so-ever, that I am still dealing with the issues with my mother, have been for most of my life and will continue having to deal with them for a good portion of the rest of my life in one way or another. Most anyone who is familiar with the psychology of victims of parental abuse will tell you that the effects last a lifetime. (And yes, it does come up in my readings from time-to-time, in fact the Tarot is an amazing tool for helping me deal with this, and other, issues.) I want to thank you for pointing out that I should "Own it, understand it, and deal with it" (emphasis mine). This will undoubtedly be very helpful to me. I have to respect you for having such a very strong opinion on the subject of "metaphysics" as it relates to the Tarot. However, I can not entirely agree with your statement. For I can't help thinking that if a deck of Tarot cards is in no way special or different from a simple piece of paper and are in no way affected by outside energies, thought patterns or anything else, then it seems to me that, logically, the Tarot is entirely a hoax. Shuffling a Tarot deck would be nothing more than randomizing the order of the cards. The order you pull them out in would have nothing to do with anything from the past, present, future, the person dealing them or the person for whom the cards are being read. However, I can not subscribe to that idea - I have already seen in the almost 30 readings I have done (no, it isn't a lot), that there is an accuracy there that seems to go beyond simple randomness of the cards. Quote: I'm sorry for having so offended your sensibilities in this matter. I realize that not everyone believes in anything metaphysical. Being new here, I was not aware that it was a forbidden subject. I certainly apologize for having brought it back up. Trogon

Jewel	29 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Trogon I'm sorry for having so offended your sensibilities in this matter. I realize that not everyone believes in anything metaphysical. Being new here, I was not aware that it was a forbidden subject. I certainly apologize for having brought it back up. Trogon It is not a forbidden subject. Mojo was just expressing how he feels. This is quite an 'aeclectic' forum so you will find different opinions, preferences, and issues we each feel strongly about. Chin up Trogon, and welcome to Aeclectic.

Diana	29 Aug 2002
edited

debins	29 Aug 2002
If (and a very theoretical "if" at that) all matter in the universe is one form of energy or another, and if reiki is means of healing through transference of energy--is that correct?--then what makes tarot cards or any other matter, paper matter, plastic matter, metal matter, etc, etc exempt from picking up and givilng off energy. Why then do some people CLEANSE pieces of matter? I'm very curious. Debins.

jamesriouxctm	29 Aug 2002
Hello all, I wanted to throw my voice besides Mojo's - I, too, believe that the Tarot cards themselves are just pieces of paper churned out of a printing press. No amount of ritual and preparation, or pomp and pageantry, will give them license to defy the laws of physics! The real power behind the Tarot must necessarily lie within the mind of the reader, and it's the mind that can be influenced by emotional energies of the kind we're speaking about. Think about it this way: The Tarot cards are physical objects and can only be affected by physical forces, like heat and sunlight and pressure. The mind, on the other hand, is not physical and it can be affected by things like unhappiness, guilt, etc. Through some mechanism that we don't fully understand the mind can have an impact on the outcome of a Tarot reading; of that I am certain. But whatever emotional "energies" are "imprinted" on the cards exist only in the mind of the reader. I'd like to propose an experiment for those who are willing to help me test this claim. Take a deck and give it to a friend, someone you trust, and ask them to handle the deck while attempting to "imprint" it with some emotional energy. But they must not tell you what emotion they are putting into it. It could be love and joy, or guilt and regret, or anything else they desire. Then do a few readings with that deck and see if its behaviour changes. I believe that nothing will change, as long as you remain unaware of the emotion that the other person put into the cards. You could even try variations with this experiment - try it with two decks, one infused with a "negative" emotion and one with a "positive" emotion. Try to tell which is which. Or try "cleansing" them afterwards and see if that changes anything. I am planning to perform this experiment myself as soon as I can get someone to "infuse" a few of my decks for me, but the more data points we get, the better. Some may cringe at the idea of "testing" the Tarot in this way, but I say that if it cannot be examined scientifically (and this is science, pure and simple - theorize, hypothesize, experiment and evaluate) it is not worthy of our devotion and energy. As always, your comments and opinions on this proposition (both pro and con) are eagerly welcomed.

Mojo	29 Aug 2002
Trogon, Sorry to have given you the idea that any subject is taboo. Just be forewarned that certain subjects around here will generate some very passionate debate. You just happened to jump into the middle of one of them - the whole mystical/metaphysical connection with Tarot. Quote: Originally posted by Trogon I can't help thinking that if a deck of Tarot cards is in no way special or different from a simple piece of paper and are in no way affected by outside energies, thought patterns or anything else, then it seems to me that, logically, the Tarot is entirely a hoax. Actually, I believe it is a bit of a hoax. Which doesn't mean that it doesn't work. I've said it before and I'll continue saying it: It's a card game. It was a card game when it was first invented and nothing can change that. I can do the same kind of readings with playing cards that I do with Tarot cards. It's not about the cards, it's about the reader. I am a total skeptic. I don't believe in anything for which there is no proof. Yet, I am an outstanding Tarot reader. It's because I have learned how the gypsies worked their craft and I work mine in very much the same manner. Quote: Originally posted by Trogon Shuffling a Tarot deck would be nothing more than randomizing the order of the cards. The order you pull them out in would have nothing to do with anything from the past, present, future, the person dealing them or the person for whom the cards are being read. Totally random. Fate. Chance. Happenstance. I'll believe otherwise when someone can show me some incontrovertable proof to support any other theory. Quote: Originally posted by Trogon However, I can not subscribe to that idea - I have already seen in the almost 30 readings I have done (no, it isn't a lot), that there is an accuracy there that seems to go beyond simple randomness of the cards. I'm quite sure that you have had some amazing readings. I have done thousands of them. But I don't credit some unforeseen force with the accuracy of my readings. That would be diminishing the credit that belongs to me. I am a very talented Tarot reader. To infer that some mysterious hand is involved in the process is insulting to me. I have excellent insight, damned good intuition, I tell great stories, and I pay attention. That's all it takes to be a good Tarot reader. I believe that Tarot readers need to do themselves a favor and stop giving credit to some external entity for their successes with Tarot. Instead, they need to pat themself on the back for being able to take pictures on pieces of paper and turn it into something meaningful.

debins	29 Aug 2002
Re quote: "I have excellent insight, damned good intuition"/quote insight and intuition into "what" if there is no "other" than your self????? Re quote: (defying the) laws of physics/quote ...even the latest and most common newspapers daily present articles that argue that the laws of physics are no longer reliable or stable laws, per se. What laws of physics are you so sure of that today's scientists are no longer so sure of?

Mojo	29 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by debins insight and intuition into "what" if there is no "other" than your self????? How about "the person I'm reading for?" Duh.

Mojo	29 Aug 2002
Oh, and please show me where I ever said there was no "other" than myself? That is your assumption about what I said, not what I actually said.

Major Tom	30 Aug 2002
I like Mojo and highly respect his opinions. It was Mojo who showed me the usefulness of describing a tarot reader as a scoundrel, rogue, rascal or scalawag. }) As far as I'm concerned Mojo is correct to describe tarot cards as bits of card with pictures printed on them and the accuracy of readings being the result of the talent of the reader. Anyone is of course welcome to believe whatever they want to believe. Maybe there is a mystical power that makes tarot work, but no one has been able to prove it nor is anyone likely to prove it. I have a belief (and I can't prove it) that may be useful for some: God is everything - me, you (and Mojo too), the chair I'm sitting on, the coffee I'm drinking and the cup I'm drinking it from. God is everything we can experience through our (limited) senses and everything that we cannot experience. Everything is connected because everything is made of the same stuff - I chose to call that God. To me - my belief goes some way to describing why tarot works. Others can and will create mystical/magical explainations that they'll never be able to prove and I suppose as long as it provides them with comfort (as my belief provides me comfort) then there's nothing really wrong with that. But if you back me into a corner and tell me to prove it - I'll end up giving you Mojo's explaination. })

jamesriouxctm	30 Aug 2002
Quote: Originally posted by debins ...even the latest and most common newspapers daily present articles that argue that the laws of physics are no longer reliable or stable laws, per se. What laws of physics are you so sure of that today's scientists are no longer so sure of? While the laws of physics we have today may not tell the entire truth, they are excellent approximations to whatever the entire truth will turn out to be. They are quite stable and they are very reliable, within a certain scope. We know now that Newtonian mechanics is not reliable for very large velocities (i.e. approaching c) and in the presence of huge gravity wells (or accelerating reference frames). You have to add in Einstein's theories to get a better approximation in those cases. But Newton's laws are still reliable for everyday problems, like projectiles firing and things rolling down hills. Perhaps another theory will come along that will supersede the theory of relativity; I can't say. I can say, though, that in those areas where it applies now, the theory of relativity will continue to apply in the future, despite whatever advances are made. I can make similar arguments on behalf of Maxwell's equations, the laws of thermodynamics, and the Schrodinger equation. These are the cornerstones of modern physics and they are not going anywhere. If the laws of physics were as mutable as "today's newspapers" claim they are, experiments done four hundred years ago could be repeated today and have different results, and that's just not possible. The laws of physics remain the same through history; it's our understanding of them that constantly improves. Granted, in the future we may learn more about the mechanisms by which the mind has an effect on the body. But I am certain that these new theories and laws we discover will not destroy physics as it exists today - only extend it into a wonderful new world of realization and understanding.

debins	30 Aug 2002
"it's our understanding of them that constantly improves". Please NO insults! We can do without the "duh". That's hardly intelligent in anyone's books. In the meantime I've taken a few moments to see who in the past has been offensive and has difficulty with "tone". I'll be ignoring those who post in such a way.

Diana	30 Aug 2002
edited

Mojo	30 Aug 2002
Diana Absolutely, I think intuition plays a large role in it. As a mother, surely you've had those "feelings" before about your kid. My sister has those all the time. She'll get a feeling of "uh oh" and the kid comes home all scraped up, things like that. I think there is always a connection between people that way. Explaining it is beyond me. Is it biology or ESP? Until someone comes along with valid proof of either, I will continue to just accept it as "one of those things." I don't deny the existence of other "powers" but I also don't think they have anything to do with Tarot. I say this because I practice Tarot completely without reliance on any outside force. When you do a reading to determine his mood, you're tapping into that part of you that connects with him. If, for example, the Devil pops up in a reading and yet your intuition says all is fine, you'll interpret the devil in a less dark way than if your intuition tells you that something is wrong. I give more credit to paying attention (either consciously or unconsciously) to all of the little signs and signals around you for doing a decent reading. Take a look at the recent reading I provided for Trogon in the "Your Readings" forum. I don't know Trogon or the friend the reading was done for. I didn't deal the cards. But yet I was able to put together what Trogon admitted was a meaningful interpretation. I did it by paying attention to the way she worded her original description and applying the same mood and feel to my interpretation of the cards that were laid out. All of a sudden, it made perfect sense to me. So I let myself go with what my intuition was telling me was so. Nothing magical or mystical about it. It was simply listening (metaphorically in this case), absorbing, and reflecting back what I felt was the right thing. For me it comes quite easily because I've been doing it for years and paying attention to the lessons I've learned along the way. Once again, I encourage you to be impressed with yourself for having that connection with your kids and your cards rather than be amazed that some outside force has given you a message. -------------------------- Debins, "duh" is the perfect response to someone who twists my words around and comes back with a senseless question based on that distorted view. If you want to debate this intelligently, you'll get an intelligent response. -------------------------- Major Tom As I am sure you know, I don't begrudge you (or anyone) their beliefs. I think we had this discussion once, but I consider myself a "reluctant athiest" - I'd love to believe in something, but unfortunately I haven't found anything yet I can believe in. It certainly doesn't mean that I think any less of someone for having their beliefs (no matter how far out they may seem to me). Actually, it's quite the opposite. I'm highly impressed by people with strong belief systems and by those who can operate on faith alone.

Trogon	30 Aug 2002
Wow - did we ever stir up a hornet's nest here! :eek: But, it is an extremely interesting discussion. And it has given me a great deal to think about! It has me reflecting on many of my own beliefs - not that it's going to cause some major upheaval of those beliefs, but perhaps help me to define things a little more for myself. Quote: Originally posted by Mojo I don't deny the existence of other "powers" but I also don't think they have anything to do with Tarot. I say this because I practice Tarot completely without reliance on any outside force. I believe that, primarily, the order the cards fall in during shuffling, cutting, and other manipulation of the deck is largely controlled by 2 things... the primary one is the subconscious of the person or persons involved in the reading (reader and querent). However there is also another factor - you used the word "fate" and this is probably just as good a word as any I suppose, but isn't that an influence? I do believe that the most important factor in the Tarot is the person doing the reading. However, I do believe that the Tarot reader is still accessing something outside him or herself, either consciously or subconsciously, during a reading. It may just be a connection with the other person, or it may be something higher. But, it is still the reader who is making that connection and interpreting the results. This may not be tremendously different from what you said: Quote: I give more credit to paying attention (either consciously or unconsciously) to all of the little signs and signals around you for doing a decent reading. Though I put a bit broader range on it than you do. ;) Now - do the cards have anything to do with it? Do they have a consciousness of their own? No, I don't believe that any more than you do. They are, after all, just paper, ink or paint, and a plastic coating. :D Do I think that inanimate objects (such as cards) can be influenced by energy (psychic or otherwise)? Yes, I do believe that. Energy influences matter. Do we understand, or even know of, every form of energy in the universe? No, I don't believe that we do. But that doesn't mean that unknown forms of energy, or forms which are not understood, do not exist. Quote: Take a look at the recent reading I provided for Trogon in the "Your Readings" forum. I don't know Trogon or the friend the reading was done for. I didn't deal the cards. But yet I was able to put together what Trogon admitted was a meaningful interpretation. I did it by paying attention to the way she worded her original description and applying the same mood and feel to my interpretation of the cards that were laid out. All of a sudden, it made perfect sense to me. So I let myself go with what my intuition was telling me was so. Yes Mojo, you are entirely correct here. You do not know either of us and you were able to help me out tremendously with this reading. I gladly admit that, and appreciate it. So, you may be right about it being intuition and, undoubtedly, your years of experience with numerous readings. Or perhaps, you've just got more ESP than you think you do? }) Actually, it helped me in more ways than you probably thought. It gave me kind of a flash of insight on the whole celtic cross layout which I desperately needed. Thank you again for the help and insight. Quote: As I am sure you know, I don't begrudge you (or anyone) their beliefs. I think we had this discussion once, but I consider myself a "reluctant athiest" - I'd love to believe in something, but unfortunately I haven't found anything yet I can believe in. Now, I hate to disagree with you... :rolleyes: But you do believe in something, and rather strongly... Yourself. And that is a very good thing (in my opinion) - and it goes a long way beyond what a lot of people I've met have. Quote: originally posted by jamesriouxctm While the laws of physics we have today may not tell the entire truth, they are excellent approximations to whatever the entire truth will turn out to be. They are quite stable and they are very reliable, within a certain scope. I would change this to "within a certain, limited scope". You're right that certain laws of motion, matter, etc, are fairly well understood. But I just don't feel that science has gone nearly far enough in understanding the universe around us (including things on earth as well as beyond it). I hope that we have not reached the end of our understanding.... Trogon

Poetlove	30 Aug 2002
Wow, seems like I really got a lot of different views on this issue. I was really down and out when I asked the question, and I feel that there are outside forces that help me shuffle, and that when they are ready for me to stop I do. The cards fall for reasons that I may or may not know. For me, it is a calming affect to be touching them when I am upset, or confused, and reading them makes the situation clearer. Thanks for all the insight you have offered!

The Thoughts, feelings, and moods thread was originally posted on 21 Aug 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.