Between Readings?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

SlyR	29 Oct 2002
When you are finished with a reading, is it suggested that you organize the deck so that all the cards are in their original order? My guess would be yes, but I'd like to hear an authoritative opinion. More importantly, when you store your deck between readings... 1. How do you stack it? Major A. first, or Minor? What order should the suits be in? 2. Is there a better storage device than the cardboard box in which they came? 3. Is it true that they ought to be kept above waist level? 4. Are there any other such considerations that I ought to be aware of?

Fuzzmello	29 Oct 2002
The cards are always in the order they "want" to be in. The only consideration I give to putting them away is to divide the spread I've just finished and meld it into the deck so the same cards aren't together. Then I put the deck in a bag and put the bag in a box. If it's a new deck and I don't have a bag for it yet or I'm deciding if I want to use it more or not, I put it back in the cardboard box it came in. The cards are tools and I try to treat them accordingly, but I can't imagine myself going to all the trouble of arranging them after every time I use them. Fuzz

Mojo	29 Oct 2002
Why would anyone want to do this?

ihcoyc	29 Oct 2002
The cards have been around six hundred years. They've been used by all sorts of rough characters, and been subjected to all sorts of off the wall interpretations. They are somewhat more robust than your question suggests. I have never re-ordered my decks in any way except for study purposes. I can see no reason why you'd wish to bother. You want the cards to present something new and different each time you read them. There are 3,651,648 potential three card spreads waiting for you. You don't want to prejudice the appearance of any of them. Rituals like these seem to serve two purposes, IMO. They encourage people to hold their cards in awe, which strikes me as somewhat counterproductive. Worse, they also serve as ready-made excuses for any difficult or hard to figure readings that you might get. The more complicated the ritual, the more likely it is you neglected or fudged some part of it. You can always blame the hard reading on the fact that you didn't pay homage to the cards in the proper ritualistic way. These contrived excuses to make excuses are the last thing you should want from any path of mental and spiritual growth. If you get a reading you don't grasp, write it down, and see what happens next. There is an entire section here for posting readings that you don't grasp or did not understand. (Welcome to the forum, BTW.)

Keslynn	30 Oct 2002
Welcome to Aeclectic, SlyR! I personally will only ever reorder my cards for one reason and that's if I got them used. In that case, I like to reorder the cards as a sort of way of recognizing that they're new to me. Plus, it makes it easier to look through all the cards by major/minor and suit. Otherwise, I think it's way too time-consuming to do after every reading. When I get done with a reading, I put the cards back into the deck and shuffle a few times. Then I'll put the deck back into its box and usually the box then goes into a little bag I chose specifically for that deck. However, for some decks, the box was too clunky, in which case they go straight into the bag. As for storage, most of my decks are laying around various parts of my house. I currently have a nice stack on my couch and some on my living room floor. Honestly, it's up to you what you do. Do what makes you feel most confortable and whatever keeps your cards protected to your satisfaction. :) Kes

SlyR	30 Oct 2002
Regarding the notion of "biasing" readings: Anyone who possesses an understanding of shuffle theory will know that readings won't be biased by an ordered deck; a complete shuffle always sufficiently randomizes the cards, regardless of their order before the shuffle. Here's why I asked my question: In some texts, it is recommended that the deck lie face down on the table with the cards in order before proceeding with the reading. Some sources differ in the ordering of the deck. Two that I can think of are S. Kaplan's "Tarot Classic" and Waite's Pictoria Key. I wanted to understand which is the accepted ordering, if any. By the way, in response to the statement that keeping the cards shuffled will allow them to remain in the order "they 'want' to be in": I was under the impression that energies produced from previous readings could skew the results of current readings if the cards were not brought back to an arbitrarily ordered state. To put it more simply, doesn't it make sense that leaving cards shuffled could concievably "queer" a reading even more than if you reordered them?

Teal	30 Oct 2002
I really think it's at the preference of the reader. I've noticed that it seems like every author has some different way that's supposedly THE way to do it, but they're seldom the same. I've experimented around till I found the way I think it works the best for me and that's what I do. If I'm studying about the deck or decks I have, I might order them to compare them with another deck, or sometimes order them just "because" and then shuffle them up again. Sometimes if I've done a big spread that I'm wanting to take a full day of reflection and study on for myself, I'll take the cards that comprised the spread and put them somehow separate from the deck in their bag so I can go back and look them over again later if I have to be away from them for awhile. One author I've read orders her deck after every reading, but then I read that another one I read here (I think) says "every shuffle and reading" she's ever done are still in her deck, meaning she's never re-ordered it. For myself, I've found that getting religious about it----meaning thinking I have to do it just so each time------inhibits my readings a lot. It's only when I relax and let it flow and do it more from a spiritually trusting nature that it works best. It may just be me, but I truly tend to think that that's the way it's supposed to be. I think the rigidity of thinking things need to be done just so is us listening to the wrong side of our brains. We need to switch to the other, dreamier side for tarot.

wavebreaker	30 Oct 2002
I never put the deck in order again after a reading. I stick the cards from the reading back in the deck, I shuffle the decks a few more times and then I put it away. The shuffling is a way for me to get rid of the "energy" of the last reading. The only reason why I would order a deck is when I'm studying it, because when it's ordered, it's easier to find specific cards I want to look at.

Kiama	30 Oct 2002
I'm more of a lazy reader than most, so for me, re-ordering the deck after every reading just doesn't work... It takes too long, and I like to leave it the way it is.... I don't believe that the cards have any energy imprinted on them from a single reading, so for me, there is not energy which could skew the next reading. Only I can do that, if I am still concentrating on the previous reading whilst trying to interpret the next one! (Which is why I find it so important to clear my head before reading!) As far as I see it, it is me controlling the cards, not them controlling me. I make the interpretations, and since the cards can be interpreted differently depending on factors such as situation, querent, question, etc, then the order they were prevoiusly in, and in fact somtims the actual positions they are in on that reading, don't make the slightest bit of diference. They are merely a springboard for my intuition, nothing more. I had never heard of the'carry them above the waist' thing before... I'd love to know the logic behind this one! Kiama

Alex	30 Oct 2002
it is a good idea because we tend to shuffle the cards in a way that they don't end up "randomly distributed" as they were supposed to. I think that's even more important if you use the same deck to read for yourself and other people as well. I have noticed with my deck that I tend to get similar cards over and over and that changes whenever I re-order the deck and re-shuffle. Every time you read I think it's a waste of time to be re-ordering, but sometimes it seems to help overcoming shuffling biases. Quote: Originally posted by Mojo Why would anyone want to do this?

ihcoyc	30 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Alex Every time you read I think it's a waste of time to be re-ordering, but sometimes it seems to help overcoming shuffling biases. This is one reason for the old ritual of cutting the deck in threes before reading. This one seems to be one of the most frequently mentioned ritualistic things. While I don't attach much significance to which hand you do it with, cutting in an odd number of piles is a good idea. In a conventional riffle shuffle, cards at the top of each stack tend to remain at the top, and so on. A two-part cut is similar to a riffle shuffle where you didn't riffle very well. By cutting in threes, you break the two-part bias of the conventional riffle shuffle and conventional cut. I cut in threes, and then select the cut that "broke" most cleanly as the one to draw from.

Umbrae	30 Oct 2002
Reorder a deck? Keep it above waist level? And what the heck is “Shuffling bias”? There are a lot of superstitions perpetrated by folks who tend to believe that magic, lies outside of the human – a thing apart; and that the cards themselves are magic. Magic – lies within – the oracular device of the day, be they Tarot cards, Rune stones, or toothpicks are merely tools which allow you to tap into the inner workings of the soul – nothing more, nothing less. Tarot cards are simply rectangles of cardboard and ink – it is what they become when they enter your head through your eyes. In your head, they become potent. Tarot totes or wooden boxes extend the life of your cards – the cardboard box and the little white book (LWB) that comes with them are excellent fire tender.

fairyhedgehog	30 Oct 2002
I've just re-ordered two decks - because I've sent them off as trades. I like to order them so that I can check that I'm not sending off a deck with a card missing. I put Major arcana first, Ace through to King of each suit, but in no particular order of suits. When I read for myself, I usually just put the cards on the bottom of the deck and don't even shuffle. That way I can have another look at the cards later if I want to. I just do whatever seems like a good idea at the time. It seems to work for me :)

Alex	30 Oct 2002
ihcoyc explained it a bit better than I did. I'm not talking about magic, and I know what the cards are made of. I meant to give an explanation for the reason why, every once in a while, I shuffle my deck. Never mind. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae And what the heck is “Shuffling bias”?

Silaria	31 Oct 2002
I've heard about reordering the deck between readings to give the next querant a "fresh deck" before but never any of the others. Personally I never reorder my deck unless I'm going to sit down and study them. I think I've only reordered them once just because I felt like it. I've never had any problems reading from a deck that wasn't ordered between readings.

Pollux	17 Nov 2002
I got here a bit late, sorry... I DO re-order decks, and very often - just when I got enough time. There are various reasons why I do. Maybe they are cerimonial or ritualistics as some says, but if I am not in the position of carrying the whole procedure out I don't get a heart attack... I'll try to answer to the original questions anyway, and attemtping to give my reasons. 1) How do you stack it? Major A. first, or Minor? I generally order them like this: - Majors, Wands, Pentacles, Swords, Cups (from Ace to King); my favourite order, for the decks I use most frequently. - Majors, Wands, Cups, Swords, Pentacles (from King to Ace or from King to Page and then Ace to Ten depending), OR generally following the order they are presented in the LWB. I use these respectively if the deck is based on Kabala OR if it is not a deck I use often. If I order the deck it is because: - I like to check, after each reading, that I have not lost any card (yes, I'm paranoid *LOL*) - I use it as a mean to pass from one reading to another, as tarotlady says - I like looking at my decks cos I love their artwork, and it is a nice way to spot details I had not noticed before, or simply go OOOOOHHhhh and AAAAHhhhhh and feel happy to be sorrounded by such nice pieces... }) What order should the suits be in? There's no order but the one you like. And if you like NO ORDER, than be it NO ORDER. 2. Is there a better storage device than the cardboard box in which they came? I have no idea... Certainly the box is ok and prevents damage. Wood boxes and fabric bags might be elegant and reverential, but there's no reak need for them... Well, maybe if you ruined the original cardboard box. :P *LOL* 3. Is it true that they ought to be kept above waist level? I have no idea if that is true or not. But I feel it is not. Yet, I like to keep them high - and because I don't want anyone to see them; anyway, at the moment they are resting in a big box below my deck with no problem. 4. Are there any other such considerations that I ought to be aware of? I don't know.

Mystica	17 Nov 2002
I read this thread without comment the 1st time around, might as well put in my 2 cents worth this time. I too understand that these are pieces of cardboard, the energy comes from within, blah blah blah....but I personally do not want a life that is without a little ritual, magic, reverence, awe, blah, blah, blah.....

allibee	17 Nov 2002
What really gets on this old dear's nerves is an ordered deck! I really hate new decks for that reason because no matter how long I shuffle for or in what manner, you still can get a small spread with two or three consecutively suited cards in. Now does that mean they were meant to be that way, or does that mean they stuck that way from the initial shuffling. As I'm not fool proof, I have to start again - just in case. Reordered decks...bah humbug ;) allibee

SlyR	17 Nov 2002
Once again, speaking as a semi-pro gambler, it is a fact that seven or more riffle shuffles will sufficiently randomize a deck of 52 cards. If you shuffle the heck out of an ordered deck of 78 cards, you will undoubtedly have randomized it enough that there should be no concerns regarding "stacked" cards. The Tarot tradition of frequently cutting and sometimes reversing cards helps the matter even more. Thus, an ordered deck has NO effect on a truly thorough shuffle. In fact, since I stopped ordering the deck, I've had less accurate results than when I put it in order prior to every reading, as recommended by both Stu Kaplan and A.E. Waite. Besides, wouldn't having two adjacent cards that weren't separated since your last reading taint your results just as much as two sequential cards? Either way, there's evidence of a "bad shuffle" (assuming such a thing exists - see above). L.V.X., Frater S.L. Raymond

zorya	17 Nov 2002
i just shuffle them a little, and put them in a 'natural fiber' bag. (cuz i'm a natural kinda gal ;) ) i do confess to cutting them into three piles with my left hand. ...partly because that is how i learned to do it decades ago and is now habit, and partly that the ritual helps put me into a centered place. ritual has a purpose, although the actual ritual, in of itself, is not important.

jmd	18 Nov 2002
I must admit that I have only just read this thread because of another. My comments remain just that: my comments. Regarding the suggested re-ordering of the deck after a reading, I agree with most views posted above. I certainly shuffle them after a reading, to 'clear' and cleanse the deck of that reading, but do not re-order it. In terms of wanting to hear an 'authoritative' opinion, whose 'authority' would be acceptable - and why? In terms of ordering the deck, I tend to also only do this for 'study' purposes. At such times, assuming I am ordering the whole deck, I place them in order of 1-King of Coins, then Clubs, Cups, Swords, then Major Arcana, the (un-numbered) Fool between XX and XXI. Storage for some of my decks include bags and wooden boxes. Each deck placed in these is pre-wrapped in a silk cloth. Silk, incidentally, was used for electrical wire insulation prior to the usage of plastic - so in addition to what one can experience for oneself when working wearing silk as opposed to cotton or another material, there is this additional good ground for the claim that this material is quite insular (as opposed to cotton, for example). As to keeping the cards above waist level, this would be for the same worthy reason as to pay attention to detail when keeping anything one treats with reverence and care. For myself, some are stored in a special case at floor level, and even my 'special' ones get below waist level when in my satchel being transported. As to other considerations, I personally consider that the cards are not just random bits of moistened pulp upon which are random bits of printer's ink. The cards were carefully designed, then a printer selected a particular grade of card-stock, upon which was printed the design and often, this was sealed for further protection by lamination. In the very design of the deck, the artist(s) were undoubtedly influenced by numerous factors. All this plays into the Tarot. The first step, in any esoteric discipline, remains, in my opinion, that of reverence.

Laurel	18 Nov 2002
Reverence as a key makes perfect sense to me. Like others have mentioned, I only order cards for study purposes and some decks only get studied, never "read". Laurel

lawguy51	19 Nov 2002
One way around the paranoia of an inadequate shuffle - just fan the cards and pick from the fan. I don't fan a lot but if I'm doing a big spread, like a CC, it's fun to watch myself seek out cards in a fan, spotting that half-buried card and pulling out, knowing that my last selection is the outcome card, trying not to think, but aware that I'm trying not to think. If I read for others in real time, I have them select from a fan. I had a psychic reading recently and asked the psychic why she didn't fan like most of the others I've seen do. She said she was a Gemini and would never be able to make up her mind. I have no idea what that means. I have a special spot in one of my bookshelves for my decks. There's a big piece of rock with crystals jutting out of it that I have standing upright against the back of the shelf. I place little stones and another crystal over my cards plus a bag of sea salt with sage in it. I have no idea if this does anything for or to my cards. But it really fascinates my kids. Oh, and the shelf is above my waist. :)

kabuki	19 Nov 2002
I usually shuffle and then choose cards from a fan as well. I mainly started doing this as i was always concerned that I either hadn't shuffled enough or didn't know when to stop shuffling. I feel that I have more control picking the cards from a fan and often move them about instinctivly till I get the desired result ... find that my readings are usually better when I do this.

Diana	19 Nov 2002
Yup, fanning is cool. :) I never do it any other way. You have all these cards spread out in front of you, in a beautiful semi-circle. You know that behind each one of them is a secret, a mystery, a question to you or an answer to a question. You move your hovering hand gently and slowly along them until you get that funny feeling that says "this one". Or else you move your eyes slowly over the cards until one seems to wink at you. Or sometimes your hand just gets guided.

fairyhedgehog	19 Nov 2002
Isn't it odd? I'm sure if I were to fan the cards I'd have terrible trouble choosing. As it is, I shuffle, I cut into three, then I just deal off the top. My rational mind says that it doesn't matter how I pick the cards, cos they will be random and what matters is my storytelling ability to make sense of them. My non-rational mind says to the cards: 'You go where you need to go' and trusts that the cards will know where I'll stop shuffling even if I don't :)

Eviemay	19 Nov 2002
Hiya. I like to reorder my deck occasionally, though not after every reading. Though if you use reversed meanings when reading it may be more practical. (So reversals from one reading don't carry over into the next.) My decks live in wonderful drawstring bags i got from Tarot Totes. They have so many different bags to choose from, as well as laycloths. I love wooden boxes to store decks, but only one of my decks lives in a box. I've heard of people storing them in cigar boxes too. There are so many different ways of storing cards and various rituals people preform with them; it's a matter of what you feel is right for you. I reorder occasionally, smudge my cards, leave them out on fullmoons, store them in bags and boxes. A friend of mine, on the otherhand, has never reordered her deck - never mind anything else, and throws them into her bottom bedroom drawer when not in use....Yet her readings can be amazingly accurate and insightful. There are no hard and fast rules here, only what helps you. Hope this helps, Bright Blessings, Evie

The Between Readings? thread was originally posted on 29 Oct 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.