The Celtic Cross...aaaarrrgghh!!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Oct 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

MystiqueMoonlight	08 Oct 2002
I have tried so many times to use the Celtic Cross and it always seems so full of ambiguities. I have seen so many different ways of interprating the CC spread and whenever I try to use it it always becomes confusing for me. I use a few different spreads from 3 cards to 22 cards for this reason. Does anyone else have difficulties with the Celtic Cross spread?

wavebreaker	08 Oct 2002
It's definitely not my favourite... ;) Once in a while I try it again, and I can work with it if I put in the effort. But I don't think it will ever become my most favourite spread. I don't really know why, whether it's the number of cards, or the meanings. Or maybe it's just because the CC is a general spread, and I prefer to use more specific spreads (love spread, relationship spread, career spread, etc.). So you're not the only one... ;)

catlin	08 Oct 2002
Hm, I am a fervent user of the CC spread from tarot day one until now. I still use it as a warming up spread when I start readings, esp. for new querents or for someone who as no specific question.

Diana	08 Oct 2002
edited

Trogon	08 Oct 2002
The Celtic Cross spread was the first spread I learned to use. In fact, for many years, it was the only spread I used. However, it is in many ways a difficult spread to use. I use 3-card and 5-card line spread much more often now, especially for daily or weekly spreads. Knowing what I do now, I would probably have been better off learning one or two of these simpler spreads first, gaining some experience and knowledge, before moving on to the Celtic Cross. I, like Catlin, am mostly using the Celtic Cross for first readings for new clients, monthly or semianual readings, or when a person just wants a somewhat general, but moderately in-depth look at their lives. The CC has actually grown on me more, as I have done more readings using other spreads. As I said before, I've been gaining experience and knowledge using the simpler spreads and I believe that this is a big help with using the CC spread. The CC spread does need more time from me to be able to do a reading. But this is because of the interactions between the cards in the various positions. This can (and frequently does) lead to some very accurate and intense readings giving a lot of insight into influences in a person's life. Anyway... a little while back Ravenswing posted an alternative to the CC spread, called "The Secret of the High Priestess" in the thread "Getting tired of the Celtic Cross". That spread had struck me as probably being one I would use, so I have it in my notebook, though to be honest I haven't actually used it yet... ;) There were other spreads posted in that discussion which you might find helpful.

MystiqueMoonlight	08 Oct 2002
Thanks for that guys, I wouldn't say the CC spread is necessarily a difficult spread for me...I just don't get it. I get more out of a Golden Dawn or 21 card Gyspy Spread or even a zodiac spread. The cards make more sense. Maybe it's because during my never ending study of the cards I have seen so many interpretations of the CC spread that it just doesn't make any reasonable sense to me anymore. I'm sure, like Tarotlady, the CC spread is just not a favourite.

Pollux	08 Oct 2002
The CC is not a spread I love. At all! I have many spreads I am bound with, often cos I made them up myself a bit. The CC is simply a tool for me. There's no emotional string to it, or of any other nature. But in all honesty I must say that - even though it was NOT the first I learnt - it is the first that "got me going" and helped me get deeper with the process and the idea of what a reading is, and how the cards correlate to each other, and how to give a consistent intepretation of them all together. Probably the meanings of the positions are not the best (I adore Joan Bunning's variation, to be found HERE), but it is supposed to cover a wide range of aspects concerning the situation. The CC is the spread I generally use for first readings, since it is very popular and sometimes also asked for by querents ("please, do the cross layout thing!" *LOL* My querents are reallu undisciplined *LOL*). And often because at first readings people don't have a specific question or matter they seek guidance for, so it mostly is a general reading: and this is the second use. I have to admit that the CC is aybe the spread that gave me most troubles with interpretations so far, but it also is the one that has given me the greatest satisfactions.

Rhiannon	08 Oct 2002
I use a version of the CC spread. I've sort of changed the meanings of the positions over time. I use this spread usually when I am asking a general question. I tend to use my 5 card spreads when asking for specifics. R :)

Thirteen	08 Oct 2002
Hey, Mystique, As you can see from that achive thread, I see the CC as the root of all evil ;) The clue to your comment is the "don't get it" part. I sincerely believe that we readers each have a spread that is right for us--just like we each have a deck that really speaks to us. And, conversely, there are other spreads (like other decks) that, while we can use them just fine, we just don't connect with them. You know that connection, when you finish shuffling, the cards seem to fly out and into the spread on their own, and the interpetation of the cards, their interrelated meanings, just sings out like a heavenly choir. Some folk can do that with the CC--but me, never. I can do the reading, but I'm pretty much tone-deaf to whatever it's singing. I can't understand its appeal any more than I can understand the appeal of certain types of music. And I don't use it. Not at all. The Zodiac spread, on the other hand, is full-on Beethoven's 9th to me. Not to others, I'm sure, but that's my spread. I use it for all general readings.

lili	08 Oct 2002
The CC is my favorite spread, is very useful when i get one of the cotumers that say they do not have any question and tell me to just start a reading, the advantage is that let me look at the querent's present situation and future prospects from different angles, examining not only the actual events which have happened or are likely to happen in the future, bu also the underlying influences that show you where those events are coming from.

anjocoxo	08 Oct 2002
The CC is also my favourite. when i use, I tend to see things so clearly... no many can do that to me.

MeeWah	08 Oct 2002
The Celtic Cross is my favorite spread, but I agree that it can be difficult to use due to its shape & the number of cards. A spread of numerous cards is not necessarily the most efficient spread; nor is a large spread always necessary. The disadvantage to the Celtic is that it can give too much information instead of focussing on a main theme, though I have seen it present a main theme. I use it for general readings; for a new client or one who has not had a recent reading from me because it is superb at providing an overview of the life. From there, I may follow up with a few more cards to make it an extended Celtic; or a 7-Card Energy Spread that delineates the major influences. How well the Celtic works as a spread may lie in the particular version or the meanings assigned to the card positions. It may require some fine-tuning by experimenting with different versions. The cross portion of the spread lends itself as a spread.

lawguy51	08 Oct 2002
I haven't been studying Tarot for that long, and doing readings mainly for myself and friends, but the first spread I learned was the CC spread, and although it is a difficult one to learn and to intuitively interpret, I have found it to be incredibly revealing for me. I have also found that if you can get comfortable with the CC spread, it makes other spreads easier to use and understand, sort of like a baseball player putting iron rings on his bat and swinging it before going to the plate. But for me it's not a spread to overuse, certainly not for yourself and not for specific questions or for readings concerning short periods of times. I use it as a general reading that reaches out about 6 months or so.

ladycj	09 Oct 2002
This is the second spread I learned, right after the 3 card spread. I agree it was difficult, but half the time I just read the cards as how they relate to each other. So, why if this spread is so hard, why is this usually the first to be taught to begining readers?

truthsayer	09 Oct 2002
the CC is the only spread i used for many years. i tried other spreads but i always felt like i was learning to read again w/ anything but the celtic cross. it's like my mind goes into automatic and i can just read the cards with the CC. using any other spread except a 3 card is laborious for me. i think if i chose a spread and used it almost exclusively for a year i could probably adapt to another spread. i've done CC so much i don't even have to think about what positions mean. sometimes a position evolves into what it is in the spread instead of a standardized meaning. i can see connections amongst individuals cards and groupings w/ CC that i can't in other spreads. why beginners are usually taught this one is beyond me. i don't know for certain but perhaps it's one of the oldest tarot spreads out there so it has a long history of use before other spreads were created. i think 3 card spreads are preferable for beginners to build up to more complex spreads as confidence levels rise. there is a modified form of CC where you only use the first 6 cards that make the cross and leave out the last 4. i think this simplifies CC so that it can be used more easily. i use the horoscope spread occasionally and it works pretty good for me. however, i think if i had not learned something about reading astrology charts, it would be difficult for me.

Thirteen	09 Oct 2002
If you examine the archive thread you'll see that I've already ranted on this subject--but, once more into the breech my friends... The reasons beginners are taught the CC is pretty much an artifical situation created, maintained and turned into a vicious circle by the "Little white book" that comes with tarot decks. Up till recently, most decks were pretty much manufactured by one company (and let's remember, in the good old days, there were far less decks and the one everyone tended to buy was RW). They had ONE little white book that they stuffed into any tarot deck they sold (sort of a "one-size-fits-all). As this book was meant as a cheap, fast and dirty way to teach someone tarot reading, the company decided to put in a spread along with the quick and dirty meanings of the cards. They decided on the CC. Why? Likely because it was a fairly well known spread. Certainly NOT because it was easy, but that really didn't matter to them. Those old style LWB's were very old fashioned and not very good at all in explaining the cards or how to read them. They were, if you will, created for the tarot tourist, the hippie/new ager who was going to buy the deck, play with it for a while, then toss it into a drawer and, some day, end up selling at at garage sale. Fast forward to today--there are more companies (though still not a lot) putting out decks, and now they sometimes cater the LWB to the deck--taking a little more time and care with the definitions in part because creators of the decks have more imput. Nevertheless, most such decks count on you buying the REAL book to go with them. The LWB is still the cheap, fast and dirty way to learn the deck and tarot card reading. And they still maintain the CC in them. WHY? Well, because everyone uses it, don't ya know? See the vicious circle here? The old LWB offers only that spread, so everyone uses it, so it seems like that's the spread to teach people, so it gets put int the new LWBs and so that's the only spread beginners learn and so it seems that that's the one everyone uses and so...... AAAAARRRRGGGGG! The CC is not, it is not, it is NOT an easy spread--nor is it necessarily the best spread, and it certainly, to my mind, is NOT a spread for beginners. But by now there's no getting it out of those LWB's. And as the LWB is what beginners buying their first deck look at and learn from, that's still the spread they come to know and believe is the one true tarot spread. Some beginners think it's the ONLY tarot spread and are amazed to learn that others exist.

Zhritza	09 Oct 2002
I, too, have gotten to the point where I wanna tell the CC to kiss my ass. I used it exclusively until maybe nine months ago, when I made up my own 9-card spread that I like a lot better; but mine is kind of simplistic for certain things so I keep trying to go back to the CC. My main problem with it is that cards 7 through 10 feel too vague, and also they seem like a rehash. I know they're looking at the issue from a second perspective as compared to 1 through 6, but still I can't shake the feeling of repetition. I haven't read about Pollux's spread yet, I'm excited about that...

ladycj	10 Oct 2002
After reading this, I think I'm going to look for a new spread. lol

wavebreaker	10 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen See the vicious circle here? The old LWB offers only that spread, so everyone uses it, so it seems like that's the spread to teach people, so it gets put int the new LWBs and so that's the only spread beginners learn and so it seems that that's the one everyone uses and so...... AAAAARRRRGGGGG! Calm down, Thirteen, take a deep breath... LOL Yes, this seems to be the reason why it's in all the LWBs. What I don't understand though, is why it's also used in Learning the Tarot. I think Learning the Tarot is great for beginners, except for the fact that they are using the CC as the first spread (the other spread they show is a 12-card Yin Yang spread, not exactly an easy one to start with either). I found this course online after realizing that the LWB that came with my very first deck (Rider-Waite) wasn't getting me anywhere and I was really glad to find it, except for that CC! Because after having gone through the whole course, and having tried the CC several times, I was about to give up, because I thought I couldn't do it. If I hadn't found Aeclectic around that time and read about the advice to start with smaller spreads and build up from there, my deck would probably have ended up in a drawer too...

Major Tom	10 Oct 2002
The Celtic Cross was one of the first spreads I learned. It is also one of my favorites. Does that mean I'd recommend it for beginners? Maybe. ;) For me, it didn't take that long to get a handle on it - but then I approached it with intuition. Now I don't think intuition is necessary to read tarot - let alone the Celtic Cross, but it sure comes in handy! }) If I were a beginner, and I wanted to learn the spread - I would recommend starting with the 6 card version as mentioned by my friend Truthsayer. If I were a beginner and had no interest in the spread at this time - I would concentrate on spreads with fewer cards. I'm pretty sure my friend Thirteen has the low-down on why the Celtic Cross is so widespread - but in many ways this is also why it's such a good spread to use. So many people have used a version of this spread that it has become an established ritual. You can use your intuition to lock into the pattern. }) Only if you want to of course. ;)

MystiqueMoonlight	10 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom For me, it didn't take that long to get a handle on it - but then I approached it with intuition. Now I don't think intuition is necessary to read tarot - let alone the Celtic Cross, but it sure comes in handy! }) ;) What do you mean? I tend to think that more can be gained from the Tarot as a catalyst for one's intuition. After all the cards are more than just a simple divination device. Could you extrapulate a little on this statement......:)

divinerguy	10 Oct 2002
I tend to follow the advice of others - smaller spreads with more focused questions. Less confusion, and more to the point.

isthmus nekoi	10 Oct 2002
I personally wouldn't turn a beginner away from the c/c if they were into it. But I can understand how it can be unwieldly. I started out w/ c/c and in fact, find it easier to read than the simple (but powerful) 3 card spread! Maybe this is b/c I tend to skip over details (very problematic habit sometimes ^_~) and try to grasp the larger meta-systems and patterns of whatever I'm dealing w/so c/c really lends itself to that type of reading: every card can be read in a greater context and individual meanings must be connected to a greater overlying order. So I don't think c/c necessarily has to be rambling and such; it can be very direct and to the point as well as being very broad and unspecific. It's a very ambi-guous spread (ambi as in both ways equally, *not* vague). You can have your cake and eat it too w/this one. Often, the c/c reading will give me clear insight not only into the external details of my life, but also, how this relates to the process inside my head.... I haven't found another spread that can do that for me yet. Qolus> I tend to think of the circle part as mind/self and the staff as relations to the external environment. The elements within/potential and the elements outside/manifest.

Major Tom	11 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight What do you mean? I tend to think that more can be gained from the Tarot as a catalyst for one's intuition. After all the cards are more than just a simple divination device. Could you extrapulate a little on this statement......:) Ok. :) For me, my intuition is like memory. It's like I've just recalled something I've always known. It's usually a sense memory - sight, smell and sound predominating. So with the Celtic Cross - my friend Isthmus Nekoi spoke of patterns - while examining those patterns - things pop into my head with a clarity that makes me sure.

Francesca	11 Oct 2002
It took me a long time to get a good grasp on the Celtic Cross. I have been using it for years and years and it's only in the last 12 months or so that I can reallly read it well. Mary Greer has a good explanation of the postitions in her book "Tarot for Yourself". The other thing I do is lay out the "Behind you" Card and the "Before you" card as #'s 4 & 5 so that the cross is laid out in a zig zag rather than a circle. I find that the 4th moves right into the 5th that way. The Celtic Cross is difficult and complex, but worth the time and effort it takes to understand it. Francesca

pentunen	12 Oct 2002
I can see how the Celtic Cross is a good spread to use if you want a reasonably detailed overview of a situation, but I don't think it's very good for a beginner to use. I've tried using the Celtic Cross a few times, and each time I come out with an "And.. your point is?" feeling. I guess as a beginner, while I may know the basic meanings of the cards, and can see what they mean in each position, it's very difficult to mentally link together so many cards into a cohesive statement. Despite the fact that 3 or 4 card spreads don't go into as much depth, I find I tend to get a lot more out of them, since I can actually see the big picture, as it were, with those spreads. - LittleCub

Pollux	12 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by tarotlady Yes, this seems to be the reason why it's in all the LWBs. What I don't understand though, is why it's also used in Learning the Tarot . I think Learning the Tarot is great for beginners, except for the fact that they are using the CC as the first spread (the other spread they show is a 12-card Yin Yang spread, not exactly an easy one to start with either). Probably it is a wrong memory, I should check, but I remember that before getting to the CC the course encourages to use 3 card spreads and daily spreads for practice. The first time I took the course, after it I magically came back to the CC - it was the time I was referring to before, when it gave me a more complete idea of Tarot Reading. Probably it was alo the course's merit though, I cannot deny it. Anyway, the approach JB has in the course is the BEST I have come across, and it is really easy. It comes to, very easy and soft. I am maybe too biased to defend her anyway... *LOL* (I was thinking, why doesn't Joan Bunning join Aeclectic herself?) Quote: Originally posted by Qolus I haven't read about Pollux's spread yet, I'm excited about that... Well, I am excited too, but what spread? :confused: *LOL*

wavebreaker	12 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Pollux Probably it is a wrong memory, I should check, but I remember that before getting to the CC the course encourages to use 3 card spreads and daily spreads for practice. Yes, she mentions one-card daily readings and there's an exercise included about designing your own three-card spreads. But the rest of the course is based on the CC.

New River	13 Oct 2002
i love doing the celtic cross for new clients. i like to see the way cards 7-10 relate to the situation at hand. i often find such good information of a more personal nature in these cards that it helps in getting to know someone better. but mostly i read for myself and found the CC redundant and sometimes confusing. i have modified the CC into a simpler 5 card spread of my own design. i am not familiar with other 5 card layouts but would love to hear about any you have come up with. here's mine: 1) The present situation 2) Clarifying card. 3) Recent past affecting situation 4) Aiding or opposing energy from outside. 5) What will come. the only problem i sometimes have with this is that i miss the #7 card which tells me what i am bringing to the table. sometimes i will draw an extra card for this if i think there is something i may not be fully aware of. love and blessings, New River :*

rota	14 Oct 2002
I use three kinds of spreads, in general: a 3-card, a 7-card, and the 10-card CC. I find they have different uses. Speak to people differently. Provide insight in different ways. And for me, the CC is the perfect balance between the minimal info to be sifted in small spreads, and the too-much info in the gigantic half-of-the-whole-deck spreads. I think there may be something in the numerological side of it as well: The 3 and 7 spreads (odd #'s supposed to be male, right?) seem to be rather straightforward, even brutal, in their responses. The 10 ( the perfect triangular number, the tetraktys) however seems to always give a tempered, balanced, nuanced response to the thoughtful query. Some people here seem to feel that the CC is frustrating because it's 'equivocal'. I prefer to think of it as 'qualified', providing degrees and kinds of insight other spreads don't seem to. I personally love the CC. When combined with a significator, you have a beautiful H-shape on the table. You can see correspondences, supports and denials; cards that work to reinforce and cards that work to temper. You have a sense that there are sufficient cards to see the necessary distance into the question, and not so many that one has no stable root for intuition. So, speaking only for myself -- hurray for the Celtic Cross! Plus, chicks love it.

MeeWah	16 Oct 2002
Rota: A belated welcome to Aeclectic! I also use the same type of spreads. I have tried 5-card spreads but 5 cards have not "stuck" though I am experimenting. Your reference to the odd-numbered spreads is interesting. I agree that they have different uses & lend a view peculiar to their number. Even a 1-card has its advantages such as a singular over-view. I have employed a 1-card as a preface to a Celtic to see a "tone" or a possible area of focus.

Moongold	16 Oct 2002
But it has taken four months for me to feel comfortable with it. I think now that it usually gives me a very accurate view of things because it *tells a story* about what is happening. I still use other spreads as well, particularly the five card "Solution" spread in Burger & Fiebig and variations of the Star spread. I also love the Mythic Journey spread in one of Rachel Pollack's books. Please think of us all here, my friends. The terrible bombing of the Bali night club has killed scores of Australians and changed the world for us always. We need your prayers. Thanks, Moongold

isthmus nekoi	17 Oct 2002
Meewah> I kinda do the same thing to! After every reading, I'll spread all the cards out over the floor and whoever ends up on the bottom is the 'link' to next week's reading. Gives the readings a sense of continuity. Moongold> It's so terrible to hear about Bali... their economy is so dependant on the tourism industry. Both tourists and natives are in my thoughts...

Talisman	17 Oct 2002
'Lo all, 'Course you know I think Thirteen (as usual) is spot on here. I believe a major reason for the enduring popoularity of the Celtic Cross is that it is so darn theatrical. It's almost as if it arrives in the pages of the little white book with your very first deck lugging along all the cliched props. According to Mary K. Greer (Tarot for Yourself), the first mention of the CC was by A. E. Waite (I don't think he'd merit much more than a footnote in modern Tarot history without Pamela Coleman-Smith, but that's another argument for another day) in 1910. Waite referred to it as the "ancient Celtic method." Lay it out and look at it. Doesn't it look arcane? (If the original "ancient" spread had been simply ten cards layed out in a line, or perhaps two rows of five, with the exact same meanings, what chance it would still be around?) Mysterious things going on here. Secret handshakes and mysterious code words. Imagine a "Gypsy fortune teller" dressed like Halloween. The table is covered with a thick cloth with fringes, perhaps there's a crystal ball in the background, a beaded curtin, spooky lighting, incense in the air, etc., etc. cliched etc., and she (almost invaribly a she) intones in just the right voice, "This covers you, this crosses you . . ." Below, behind, above, before, or whatever confounded order you learned them in. Oh, the CC comes in a terrific package. The LWB industry knows what its doing -- give people what they expect. Well, I learned to use the CC, in fact fell into what faunabay called the "CC rut," but I regret the time I spent with the darn thing. You shouldn't spend more time thinking about the spread you're using than the cards themselves. ("Let's see, what was position eight now? And how the devil does that relate to . . .") Like trying to hammer a straw through a brick. I'm happy for those of you who felt covered like maple syrup over hotcakes by the CC from the first, but I think it should carry a warning label for beginners. I'd volunteer to write one, but it would probably get me banned from Aeclectic. Talisman

Zhritza	18 Oct 2002
I want to see your prospective warning label about the CC! Please please pretty please? C'mon, cut loose. }) I was in that rut for years, I understand that of which you speak.

MystiqueMoonlight	18 Oct 2002
:confused: Evidently I'm using a CC spread which is a little different. It has 11 cards plus 5 additionals below (and there is no significator).....OUCH! :eek:

Major Tom	18 Oct 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Talisman I think it should carry a warning label for beginners. I'd volunteer to write one, but it would probably get me banned from Aeclectic. No one is going to ban you for this. :) A Warning label sounds like a sensible idea. I'd like to read it. but if you keep trying to pick fights....you are back in civilisation. })

Diana	22 Oct 2002
edited

rota	22 Oct 2002
I'd love to hear more about Pam if you have some history or special insights. I understand she was a respected painter, altho I don't think I recall any of her work. I took extensive courses in Art History, but her name never came up.

The The Celtic Cross...aaaarrrgghh!! thread was originally posted on 08 Oct 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.