Contradictory meanings, other meanings

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Myrrha	13 Nov 2002
I am confused about how you reconcile the different meanings of some cards. For example I thought the fool meant innocence, trusting attitude, fresh starts, tryng new things, "look out for the cliff" but still a positive card. Then I looked at the older decks where the fool is not a fresh faced blithe youth but the kind of person I see on the subway and am afraid of: rough, dirty, half-crazy wanderer. Even Waite, who gave us the image of the innocent, care free youth said the divinitory meaning is something like folly, recklessness, abandon. I returned "Tarot Classic" to the library recently so I can't look it up but I think Kaplan gave similar meanings. Do readers just decide which set of meanings they will use, or do you sometimes say it means folly and sometimes say it means fresh starts etc. depending on the context? Also, how do you bring in meanings that you have gleaned from other decks or systems that are not supported by the pictures in the deck you are using? For example the ten of cups is often illustrated with a scene of family happiness but for some people the suit of cups also has to do with their artistic or spiritual lives. If an interpretation is not supported by the picture does that mean it does not belong in the reading? Do you give the interpretation that *is* supported by the picture and then give another as a kind of afterthought? Thank you for answering! Myrrha

Keslynn	13 Nov 2002
What an interesting and layered question, Myrrha! Now, I'm warning you that my thoughts might not come out so clearly because I'm still mulling this over in my mind. As for the various meanings for a card, I don't really think that they're contradictory so much as different shades of the same color. There is a whole range of meaning that is attached to one image. That's why tarot is such a great system. A picture is worth a thousand words, right? I don't think it would be half so insightful if we merely had cards with words on them. But we do have pictures. So we can look at the Fool and see innocence, new beginnings, the leap of faith, ignorance, or a whole other list of characteristics. And the best part is, that each of these meanings is "right." It all depends on which of this range of meanings taps into your intuition at the time. Also, it's somewhat dependent on position. So I look at the card and where it is in relation to the others, and usually the right meaning comes to me. Another thing that lends itself to the process is the artwork of the particular deck. Some decks have a particular way of showing a card that gives me a whole new perspective. As for your other question about the deck not showing a particular meaning... well, I say, bring in whatever meaning your intuition says should be there. The cards are merely tools to access our inner voice. If your inner voice has chosen a particular meaning to bring to your attention, then there's probably a reason for it. So use it whether or not that particular deck shows it. Those are just my 2 cents. :) Kes

Mystica	13 Nov 2002
I feel the meanings from the different books are guidelines, not the last word. Just like the future is not "written in stone" the meanings of the cards have many layers and nuances depending on the question, spread, location in the spread, and foremost, our intuition. Our intuition is really what it's all about. If the each card meant the same thing every time, our readings would become totally mundane and pointless after awhile. Just my opinion, certainly not necessarily the right, or only opinion.

zorya	13 Nov 2002
i recommend reading and learning all the possible meanings, and then... put away the books and go with your intuition. it's amazing the way the brain can synthesize the seemingly different and many layered meanings. a common fallacy is that opposites cannot exist together. they can and do! opposites are just two sides of the same coin. they always exist together in one way or another. every card has two sides. there are no positive or negative cards. the position and surrounding cards will tell you which meaning to go with. stop listening to your brain. what are the first words and thoughts that pop into your head. write them down. therein lie your interpretations.

Major Tom	14 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by zorya stop listening to your brain. what are the first words and thoughts that pop into your head. write them down. therein lie your interpretations. Bravo! :) I've always found it really did boil down to this. I was talking to someone the other day who insisted that all good tarot readers are really psychic. I told her, "Call me a Scalawag but don't call me a psychic". })

WolfSpirit	14 Nov 2002
Myrrha, I think the other darker meaning of a card is what some people use when they get the card reversed. I don't normally use reversals (unless one shows up by accident) but I can interprete a card in that meaning, depends on the position in the thread (for example: in the "what is blocking you" pos. you would get a negative meaning) or if you see it from the cards around, for example if the fool is followed by the five of pentacles I would say the fool indicates the querent is acting too recklessly. As for the pictures: I sometimes like to lay the same spread with a different deck to see what it looks like. It can clarify a lot what was not clear immediately. I think I first think of the meaning I know in my mind, but just looking at the pictures can sometimes help a lot, you interprete what you see.

raeanne	14 Nov 2002
Myrrah, Here are some of my thoughts and ramblings about the Fool card. If any of this makes sense to you, use it. Otherwise, ignore it! The Fool has no background, no experience. The RW picture shows a fresh, young, kid, just starting out on his journey. He doesn’t know the cliff is dangerous because he has never seen one before. His foolish acts don’t come from stupidity, but from lack of knowledge and experience. The Fool reacts to life. He doesn’t yet know that he can take control and direct his life, that comes later at the Magician stage. The Fool is like a ball in a pinball machine; he changes direction only when he bumps into something. He doesn’t have any foresight or knowledge about steering his life through the rocky spots, he just wanders along, bumping into things. I think the picture on the older tarot decks shows this same concept. The Fool is allowing himself to be knocked around, not making choices, not learning from past experiences (either mistakes or successes) and not setting any directions for his life. The Fool does not take responsibility for his own actions. He blames life for state he is in. The older tarot decks perhaps show the more depressing view of being stuck at the Fool stage instead of the lighter side of “a fresh new start”. Yes, it can be nice to be at the beginner stage, just don’t get stuck there!

Silverlotus	14 Nov 2002
This is a really interesting post because I am struggling with similar questions right now too. I've used the Witches' Tarot for many years, and all my notes are currently based on that deck, with it's odd numbering and correspondences. But in the past week, I bought the Robin Wood deck, and have started using it. It has more traditional meanings, numbers and correspondences, which in some sense make my notes useless. But the more I look at my notes, compare the decks, and read all my books over again, the more I am able to come up with some ways to tie everything together. A lot of it, for me, comes to looking at what is pictured on the card. Ms. Wood's artwork is wonderful, and I can often tell from the expression of the person what the tone of the is card. By the pictures I am able to adapt what I have previously known as a "good" card to a "bad" card or vice versa by examining the picture and the people pictured. And honestly, if 100 books say card A means something and I just don't see it, well, the heck with the books. It's me who is reading the cards, and it's my feelings that matter. Perhaps if the Fool card that I used has a rough looking person on it, I would use a bit harsher meaning. But the Fool is the Robin Wood deck is very happy-go-lucky, so regardless of what meaning a book might tell me, I'd use a more positive meaning, of course with the caution about fallling off the cliff! :) Pardon me for blathering on. Like I said, I'm working through this problem now, and this is helped me sort it out a little bit more. :)

Myrrha	14 Nov 2002
Thank you all for answering and reminding me that the cards and their meanings are tools for accessing something inside me, intuition or unconscious, connection with divinity, whatever, and that it is that thing that matters. I have been keeping a tarot journal lately and noticing that the more I go with my intuitive response to the pictures, the more accurate the readings are. But then why do we have meanings at all? Why not just collect a set of 78 greeting cards that have interesting and evocative pictures and read with them? Maybe the specific tarot images and their meanings are stimulants to the intuition that have been time-tested and shown to work really well as starting points, and also give a structure that is related to the shape of human life, the kinds of problems and growth-opportunities people face. Thanks again, your responses were really helpful. Myrrha

dangerdork	14 Nov 2002
Hi Myrrah: I just wanted to pitch in my two cents' worth if it's not too late - first, one viewpoint on the Fool: In royal courts in medieval times the fool or court jester was often mentally retarded, insane, or similarly non compos mentis, and often disabled in other ways as well. And they were there to be laughed AT for their disabilities as well as providing entertainment we think of as a "jester." Not a pretty picture - but because of their disabilites, court fools were permitted to pretty much say anything they wanted, because they didn't know any better. They had the freedom to criticize and mock the king and the royal family with impunity, to say things that other people would be imprisoned or even executed for saying. So this version of the Fool is a misfit and an outsider, completely naive of social norms and mores. But he's still dissheveled and unkempt, a little scary as some street people are. That's how I've always reconciled the traditional and more modern, esoteric versions of the Fool. I agree completely with what everyone is saying about intuition, but I also believe that there are some cards that are just plain bad news, and that it's foolish to ignore bad news or try to put a happy spin on it. I really like your last post, I am an artist creating a deck and I think about this stuff all the time. I think there ARE some archetypes that you shouldn't stray too far away from because they do resonate across the ages, tradition does play an important role in the tarot. On the other hand, The whole Golden Dawn thing only happened about 100 years ago, not that long in terms of how long the tarot has actually been around. And Waite and Crowley re-invented, just as many modern artists have re-invented again and again, the now "standard" imagery for many of the cards... What I try to do is look at each card in as many contexts as possible and relate to that card's imagery, symbolism and interpretation in the ways that appeal to me personally - that's how one develops a relationship with The Tarot instead of with just one's own particular deck. That's just my perspective, for whatever it's worth :)

Umbrae	14 Nov 2002
I am laughing. Myrrha, you can take any number of greeting cards and read with them. But to answer your question: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8599 Ya know, historically – the meanings (of tarot cards) were actually ‘made up’ by a couple of guys. The Tarot did not come from Egypt; it did not come from the Roma (Gypsies). It was a card game that a few folks said, ”Oh my…deep meanings” and Tarot for divination was born. (read "A Wicked Pack of Cards, The Origions of the Occult Tarot - Decker, DePaulis, Dummett) The meanings ascribed to the cards by some half-daft fools between 1750-1850 have never changed with the times. The world has changed (it is dynamic), but the meanings of the cards remain static? Nobody can adequately agree on the “Meanings” of the cards; which is why I preach – throw the books away! You want to learn Divination by Tarot? Throw the books away and start with an empty mind. Somebody once asked me to write a book on tarot. I envision it as 348 blank pages. If I was to put into words what “The Fool” means – it would turn the Tarot world upside down…for to me…it does not mean innocence, or beginnings…indeed The Fool can be one of the darker cards in the deck. And The Fools journey? There is no fool’s journey.

Diana	14 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Somebody once asked me to write a book on tarot. I envision it as 348 blank pages. Why 348 pages, Umbrae?

Umbrae	14 Nov 2002
The number Six, represents a transition from the past… …To the future (which is already in progress) :smoker:

dangerdork	14 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I am laughing. If I was to put into words what “The Fool” means – it would turn the Tarot world upside down…for to me…it does not mean innocence, or beginnings…indeed The Fool can be one of the darker cards in the deck . And The Fools journey? There is no fool’s journey. OK, Umbrae, that's certainly one of your more cryptic and intriguing quotes in the short time since I've joined... care to elaborate? I'm with you overall, in that I believe prayer, meditation, divination, and magick are all ways that people are trying to tap into the same thing, and the rituals and implements they use to do so are just devices to focus the energies they are bringing into play. So yes, you CAN use toothpicks or greeting cards (ask me sometime MY pet idea for a divination method!) That being said, I love the tarot because as a device or system, it has a rich and somewhat mysterious history, it is communicated through art, which crosses boundaries of culture, language, and history. The diversity and beauty of the tarot draw me to it, its traditions, and the variations of its aspects. Robin Wood once told me (and said more at length in the Aeclectic interview) that once she had created her deck, she didn't NEED a deck anymore... the images were so deeply imprinted that she could see the patterns around her. But the traditions of the tarot are worthy of study and respect purely for artistic and cultural reasons, and one can also take pleasure in knowing that they are sharing this tradition with others across the borders of culture and history.

Myrrha	14 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork I am an artist creating a deck and I think about this stuff all the time. I think there ARE some archetypes that you shouldn't stray too far away from because they do resonate across the ages, tradition does play an important role in the tarot. On the other hand, The whole Golden Dawn thing only happened about 100 years ago, not that long in terms of how long the tarot has actually been around. And Waite and Crowley re-invented, just as many modern artists have re-invented again and again, the now "standard" imagery for many of the cards... Yes, the Waite-Smith imagery seems to have taken on a certain . . . don't know what to call it, a certain authority, becoming standard imagery. I read something by an artist-magician named Austin Spare who seems to have done some very surprising predictive work with cartomancy. His idea was you *have* to make your own deck and you have to invent all the symbols and their meanings as well! He didn't believe in traditional symbols at all for the same reason Umbrae gave, that they were just human inventions and their original meanings lost or garbled over time. It seems to me though that the tarot images, the archetypes, have something to teach. I know they are not from Egypt, but neither were they invented by one person on the spur of the moment to decorate playing cards. I doubt that anyone 600 years from now will be using Pokeman cards for spiritual guidance and divination. Or at least not many people. :) (But you never know!) Umbrae, I am curious about your take on the Fool if you feel like sharing it. Dangerdork I will look for posts about your deck. Have you posted any images here? Myrrha

Umbrae	14 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Myrrha Yes, the Waite-Smith imagery seems to have taken on a certain . . . don't know what to call it, a certain authority, becoming standard imagery. … that they were just human inventions and their original meanings lost or garbled over time… A.E. Waite’s meanings have remained static within a dynamic world, and are useless in context with our culture. Two different authors cannot agree, as one is caught up in the past and another in the present. A person goes to the bookstore and buys a tarot deck and a book. They spend a year memorizing the meanings and then call themselves a Tarot Reader. Are they a Tarot Reader? It is my opinion that they are not, but then again they are. They have become a parrot, a mimic. They have stuck their heads into a box of the author’s making. Is this a bad thing? No. Yes. It depends. I know some very good readers who never think beyond the stated meanings of the cards. But they would never call themselves psychic, or intuitive. They entertain…they serve a purpose. Some folks never get hung up on - what does this card mean…it means what it means in context to whatever spread happened at that point in time. For instance, I love to read with regular playing cards. There is no standardized set of meanings. Some folks use tarot meanings. Often…I use no meanings at all…in fact…sometimes…the cards stay face-down. I have also used toothpicks for many years. Find what works for you. Do you like static meanings? Then find a set you agree with and use them. Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork … ask me sometime MY pet idea for a divination method! Yo – turn it from an idea, into reality – and tell us about it.

zorya	15 Nov 2002
ok, i'm BIG on intuition when it comes to interpreting a reading... but allow me to play devil's advocate }) what if; we do have ancestral memory? what if; we have past lives? what if; we have spirit guides? what if; our ancestors help us? what if any of the above 'help us' in reading the cards.... then would not archetypes and ancient symbols take on meaning? would they not be ways for us to connect with and understand those (or ourselves) from the past, and what they have to say to us? imho, i believe in reading and learning as much as you can. this will give you a much broader 'reading' vocabulary...... and then, put down the books, let go of all the 'meanings' and use your intuition.

dangerdork	15 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae [b] A.E. Waite’s meanings have remained static within a dynamic world, and are useless in context with our culture. Two different authors cannot agree, as one is caught up in the past and another in the present. For someone who is such an advocate of absolute freedom of interpretation and expression, some of your statements certainly come across as rigid and inflexible, Umbrae. Those of us interested in the traditions of cultural anthropology exemplified by the work of such visionaries as Frazier, Jung and Campbell are gnashing our teeth over that post. Dynamic though it may be, human culture DOES exhibit principles, situations, and behaviors which are universal. Artists in all genres describe and speak to "the human condition." Religions and philosophies all address the hopes, fears, ethics and values that we all have in common, and HAVE had in common, since the dawn of civilization. As I mentioned in another post, how can anyone see the Tower and not think of September 11th? How can you say that the archetypical symbols AND traditional interpretation of this card are "not relevant to our culture?" These go back beyond Waite, yes, but the point is that the principles, situations, and behaviors portrayed in the Tarot are relevant to ALL civilizations and cultures. That's the charm of the tarot - it's a dynamic and interpretive photo album cataloguing the totality of The Human Condition. Yes, it's subject to interpretation, yes there are vast numbers of decks and perspectives, but classical and popular interpretations are a critical component of its use. I don't turn my TV between channels, watch the snow and "use my imagination." There needs to be some framework and focus upon which intuition and spirituality can be built. If you say there is no difference between reading tarot cards and reading playing cards (or GREETING cards ?!) - then you're not really reading the tarot cards at all - it's a purely "psychic" interpretation. Some of us are more interested in a more contextual and synchronistic approach.

raeanne	15 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork I don't turn my TV between channels, watch the snow and "use my imagination." Dangerdork, You should try this 'cause that's where all the really good stories are! Between the channels, in the snow and in your IMAGINATION! Better yet, turn the power off to save energy and watch the stories that show up on the blank screen!

Umbrae	15 Nov 2002
Tee Hee. What if; we do have ancestral memory? (See below) What if; we have past lives? In the words of Baba Ram Daas, “Be here now.” Most of us have enough issues dealing with our own mundane issues in this life…past life analysis only clouds our ability to handle this life. Past life crap serves to provide many with a weapon of, and for denial; an excuse – “Oh I can’t do that…I was a blah blah in a past life!” What if; we have spirit guides? Do they need the same imagery? If we would learn to listen, really listen and stop thinking…Let us lighten up on our spirit guides and give them some credit. Do they need the same imagery as us mortals with our past life hang-ups? What if; our ancestors help us? Is it reasonable to “lock our ancestors” heads in boxes? Give them some credit and listen to them, as opposed to telling them what they should think. …Then would not archetypes and ancient symbols take on meaning? Would they not be ways for us to connect with and understand those (or ourselves) from the past, and what they have to say to us? Then we are in serious trouble here…there are how many configuration of decks? Imagery and archetypes are wonderful tools for mortals who cannot listen, who have “two good eyes, but still can’t see” – and those who have moved on, or those of another realm – If they are locked into the same boxes, habits, and prejudices that we are, why would I want to listen to them? What kind of wisdom will move me forward, if I am listening to those (of any realm) who are blind, telling me what the scenery looks like… Wait a second. I am color blind…so why am I telling you about the scenery? (roflmao)

dangerdork	15 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by raeanne Dangerdork, You should try this 'cause that's where all the really good stories are! Between the channels, in the snow and in your IMAGINATION! Better yet, turn the power off to save energy and watch the stories that show up on the blank screen! But Raeanne, If I want to make up my own stories in my imagination (which I agree ARE the best ones), then I'll go for a walk in the country and do it there! And this is the point of my analogy - If I'm going to bother to sit on my couch and watch the television, I'm going to turn it on and make the best possible use of it! I'm going to learn how to sift through the garbage and find the programs which can instruct, delight, provoke, and enlighten me - expressions of emotions, images and attitudes that the writers, actors, directors, and other video artists have worked so hard to pass along to me! I'm going to learn more about what it means to be a human being through the communal, shared experience of others. And that's why the traditions of the tarot are important to me too. People have worked hard to incorporate their wisdom and world views into the imagery and interpretation of the tarot. I'd like to learn from that. I hope I can remain humble enough to always believe there is ever more to learn from the experience and knowledge of others. If I'm going to draw solely upon my OWN wisdom and intuition, I don't need tarot cards at all.

Silverlotus	15 Nov 2002
Quite honestly I'm getting a bit confused about the posts that discount the traditional symbolism of the Tarot. Isn’t it the whole point that the cards are decorated with archetypical symbols that speak to our subconscious? If I were to say grab a bunch of greeting cards, who’s to say what symbols I would get. This time of year it is likely to be a bunch of Santas, snowmen and candles. While there is a somewhat wide range of situations for these characters to be placed in, I’m not likely to get the range of archetypical characters and situations I’d get from a Tarot deck. Yes, I agree that a reader does need to discover the flavour and depth of the card meanings through study (with or without the help of a book), there is something to be said for images that speak to the collective unconscious. Archetypes have developed for a reason. Certain symbols hold meaning for people. Now to bring it back to the Fool. The way the Fool is presented in many Tarot decks, the card seems to be “light” and the Fool is seen as a person on a journey, somewhat haphazardly travelling along the road. In other decks the Fool may be presented in another way. I think you need to look at the way this archetypical character is presented, and make a decision based on your feelings about the image. Is your Fool happy or a bit freaky? Is setting out on the journey a good thing, or is the Fool running away from something? I guess what I’m saying is I think the “traditional” archetypical characters, situations and symbols are needed to jumpstart our brains, to direct us towards the meanings. I think this is even true in decks where the traditional symbolism is presented in a slightly different way, like the theme Tarots featuring dragons, unicorns and what-have-you. I don’t think I’d want to use a deck where there are no characters on the pip cards. In that case I think it is a matter of just memorizing meanings, since there are no visual clues to use. Of course this is all my opinion. :-) lol! I really enjoy this forum. It has given me so much to think about it the sort time I’ve been here, and has really rekindled my interest in exploring all the symbolism my cards have to offer me. Bright Blessings, Silverlotus

Diana	15 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Silverlotus I don’t think I’d want to use a deck where there are no characters on the pip cards. In that case I think it is a matter of just memorizing meanings, since there are no visual clues to use. Hi Silverlotus: I assure you that there are lots and lots of visual clues on pip decks (I'm talking about the Marseilles decks here - I don't know about other pip decks.) There are colours or absence of colours, flowers or absence of them, stems, the ordering of the elements on the deck, whether the pips can be reversed or not, the differences between the pip cards as one goes along in the sequence, horizonality, verticality. Lots and lots of stuff. As well as numbers, of course.

Umbrae	15 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork For someone who is such an advocate of absolute freedom of interpretation and expression, some of your statements certainly come across as rigid and inflexible, Umbrae… Folks know, I write from an opinionated standpoint to get people to think…about possibilities. They also have heard me advocate time and time again that when you are beginning, to buy two decks; paste one in a notebook and find your own meanings. Read with the other one. Over time, your meanings will expand. Later, when you begin reading books, you will find that your meanings coincide wonderfully with that of most authors. The problem with starting with books, is they tend to “Lock in meanings” and your head gets into a “box”. The book is published so the author must write fact. This is akin to stating that everything taught in schools is a fact. The post was started about coming to terms with disparity among meanings. As always, I strive to suggest that there are possibilities out there…don’t get “Locked in”. Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork …If you say there is no difference between reading tarot cards and reading playing cards (or GREETING cards ?!) - then you're not really reading the tarot cards at all - it's a purely "psychic" interpretation. I’m sorry, what’s wrong with that? My post clearly states there is no ONE WAY to read Tarot. Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork Some of us are more interested in a more contextual and synchronistic approach. A true synchronistic approach recognizes that there is more than one way, and that possibilities exist. Now…how do we reconcile disparity among meanings?

raeanne	15 Nov 2002
Hi Dangerdork, I also believe in a power in tradition but I don’t blindly bind myself to it. Universal truths such as don’t kill, are as valid today as they were thousands of years ago. However, driving an ice pick through the earlobe of my slave if he decides to remain in my service, just doesn’t apply any more. This tradition has thankfully become obsolete. To believe in something just because it is tradition is, IMO, stagnation. New traditions begin with dreams and imgaination. (I'm at work right now and things are getting busy so I may have to stay out of the discussion for a bit. I sure am enjoying the discussion!)

dangerdork	15 Nov 2002
I'm definitely enjoying the discusssion too, and I don't want to paint myself into a corner as a traditionalist or conformist - I've always considered myself an individualist and an iconoclast... and Umbrae, I can see what it is you do, your posts are always thought provoking. I'm just playing your game back at you - if you say something I really disagreee with, I'm going to try to provoke YOU right back - this kind of friendly debate is what often sparks the freshest exchanges of ideas. I agree absolutely that someone should NOT lock herself in to the "book" interpretations of the cards, she should find her own interpretations through study of multiple decks and authors, her own intuition and experiences from reading the cards. There are enough disparate "book" meanings for the each card to create a broad range of meanings... enough to provide a rich palette for subjective characterization. It's interesting to find common elements between different authors' disparate meanings. And that's before the interrelationships of cards within a spread come in. I like your whole thing about the two decks, Umbrae. And in parallel with that, I tell clients when I read for them, BEFORE I interpret the cards, if there are any pictures there that really stand out, that make you curious or feel some powerful emotion, if a Court card instantly seems to be someone you know, stop me and tell me what you're thinking, or what you are feeling or wondering about the card. Sometimes I just know in the middle of a reading I should stop and say, "what do YOU think is going on this card?" And I also will sometimes give clients advice based not on the cards at all, but on my own life experience and what my instincts and intuitions tell me about their situation. This can be influenced and guided by the cards, but is not a classical interpretation OF those cards. So I get what y'all are talking about. But still, I think anyone who is relatively new to the tarot is being done a disservice if you tell them, "just make up whatever you want." YES they should be creative in their interpretation, but an understanding of the contexts, diverse symbolism and interpretation of the tarot from scholars, artists and esotericists through the ages is of HUGE benefit to anyone interested in the tarot and should not be dismissed so lightly.

dangerdork	15 Nov 2002
I've mentioned before, I am an artist and have finally begun my own deck. I have increased the amount of time spent reading cards, studying books about their interpretation, symbolism and history, and studying the actual imagery of each card as I go from amongst my 40-some decks (plus other images I find online ;) ). I've kept a notebook , but the perspective is on what I want MY cards to look like - composition, style, symbolism, color, etc., as well as more traditional things. Just an introduction, 'cause I thought this spin from my Fool card speaks to the issues of "contradictory meanings" as well as being creative within the boundaries of traditional meanings and archetypes. The Golden Dawn Magickal tarot shows the Fool as an infant lying on the ground with a wolf who appears to be its protector - calling up the "Romulus and Remus" legends of the founding of Rome... which led to thoughts of other "feral children" legends: Mowgli, Princess Mononoke... So my Fool doesn't have a dog at his feet, he has a wolf. But to look at that particular symbolic tradition - most cultures have stories of infants abandoned in the wild and raised by animals, often wolves. Those people in those stories always seem to return to the civilized world at adolescence, where they are social outcasts and create a lot of trouble, but also reveal to those around them who the REAL fools are... Tarzan is another example of the whole "feral child" legend. So I decided to give my Fool a wolf, and I realized that the situation he is in, the journey he is embarking on, is leaving the jungle to go back to the world of humanity. The wolf (dog), his companion and protector, is pretty nervous about this and sees the trouble he is heading for... So I think this, while seeming at first to be an original idea (I'm sure it's been done on a deck somewhere, but not on any I've seen), ties back into so many resonances of the existing meanings of the Fool card - innocent, fresh, sense of adventure and also outcast, misfit, and well, foolish... and "leaving the jungle" could symbolize Man's spiritual or cultural development, rising above the beasts... So there's an example from MY book how you can at once recognize and reconcile conflicting meanings, while bringing in your own creative vision and intuition without violaating existing traditions.

Umbrae	15 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork But still, I think anyone who is relatively new to the tarot is being done a disservice if you tell them, "just make up whatever you want." …never said – never implied it. I said find your own meanings (true I left out the words – “Based upon what you see”). Remember – the cards were not invented for divination. They were invented for a card-game. Le Mat was a non-valued trump, worthless. It cannot win a trick; it can be used for releasing you from the obligation of following suit or playing a trump if no card is available from the led suit. It was invented and used as a non-card, with a specific benefit. The Fool’s journey was a mnemonic devised by modern writers as a way to memorize the order of the trumps as used in divination, and to ascribe meaning where none had existed before. Some would argue (perhaps I am one) that it is not the Fool that journeys through the majors, but Le Bateleur. Since Le Mat is numberless and valueless, it could very conceivably appear at any point in the majors – including – at the end (of the journey). Le Mat was always seen as being “Outside” of the majors, until the mid nineteenth century (Eteilla) and later (Paul Christian) placed Le Mat between Judgment and The World. It was the Golden Dawn folks who decided finally that it needed to begin the Majors, based upon erroneous information. Your fool can have a wolf…although I myself – believe a Coyote would be more appropriate.

dangerdork	15 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Nobody can adequately agree on the “Meanings” of the cards; which is why I preach – throw the books away! You want to learn Divination by Tarot? Throw the books away and start with an empty mind. OK Umbrae, I can't quite reconcile that with this: Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae …never said – never implied it. I said find your own meanings (true I left out the words – “Based upon what you see”). But your point is well taken about the origins of Tarot as a card game and the Fool being the original Joker or Wild Card... Who's Paul Christian? Not familiar with him. I do like the Fool as an "uplaced" card - again in my metaphor, after the journey is over the feral child usually returns to the wilderness where he or she belongs... Coyote? I would tend to associate like this Coyote = Trickster (which, yes I can see corresponds to 'joker'), but I always associated Coyote with Prometheus in Greco-Roman traditions, who I connect much more with the Magician. Yes, I know the Bateleur was PURELY a charlatan and juggler, not like the modern version... but that connects even more with Coyote as trickster. At any rate, this is the type of free association I have been talking about. Yes, meanings are subject to interpretation, but traditions give you a great place to start from , to riff on, and perhaps to discover unexpected associations...

Umbrae	16 Nov 2002
It is time for you to study. You need to read: Trickster Makes This World, by Lewis Hyde Coyote Was Going There, by Jarold Ramsey In addition, the afore mentioned A Wicked Pack of Cards, Decker, DePaulis, Dummett. Prometheus cannot be compared to Coyote. Hermes and Coyote can be compared. Trickster, clown, keeper of the gates, ferryman, lord of apples, lord of the otherworld, veracious, cunning, sly, wise, and lord of the in between gray places. Trickster is about moving upon the roads (remember – culture used to be agrarian, living in villages/tribes), the spirit of doorways, and the crossroads at the edge of town – he does not live near the hearth. He is the boundary crosser –mover (internal social distinctions). Trickster is a god/not a god that runs across all cultures, Loki, Raven. Coyote, Eshu, Legba, Hermes, Manannan Mac Lir, Krishna, Crow, Hare, Spider… Trickster is the spot between heaven and earth, the moment the sun reverses itself; they create a distance only they can span. They set others at odds, or place boundary markers in new an unusual places…what will happen when your fool gets to the cliff? Most have him falling. The trickster will keep walking. The cliff is only a boundary to us – and the dog that will follow about six steps before realizing his error… The Trickster is an older, deeper archetype than the Hero, the Patriarch or the Warrior. You can see that the Trickster appears in the earliest Paleolithic cave paintings, about 18,000 or 20,000 years ago. Warriors did appear until about 9,000 years ago. Kings appeared even later. It appears historically that the Trickster came a lot earlier, perhaps even before the cave painters appeared. The Trickster is closely tied to hunting, and hunting and gathering were the origin of human society, maybe 50,000 years ago. The Warrior and the King are possible only after the development of cities. Now Le Bateleur, he is the mortal equivalent (male) as Le Popess is the female (of the fourth face of the woman)…both are wanna be tricksters – as Prometheus was to Hermes, jokes of the carnival. They are clowns in homage to the divine. Only Le Mat is capable of passing strategic wind.

Lee	16 Nov 2002
Hey, Umbrae, I bet you'd like Michele Morgan's book, "A Magical Course in Tarot." She advocates a reading method wherein you take your cards, you quickly and without thinking throw whatever number of cards you feel like face up on the table in no particular pattern, and then you proceed to notice details, expressions, postures, symbols, flora and fauna, and weave them together into an interpretation, but entirely in terms of how they strike you at the moment, and with no recourse to memorized meanings. So a card may end up with an interpretation that has nothing to do with any standard interpretation. I've tried this, and I found it refreshing and liberating. I'm not sure if I want to do all my readings this way, but I'll certainly do a lot of reading this way. -- Lee

dangerdork	18 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae It is time for you to study. You need to read: Trickster Makes This World, by Lewis Hyde Coyote Was Going There, by Jarold Ramsey In addition, the afore mentioned A Wicked Pack of Cards, Decker, DePaulis, Dummett. Prometheus cannot be compared to Coyote. Hermes and Coyote can be compared... Now Le Bateleur, he is the mortal equivalent (male) as Le Popess is the female (of the fourth face of the woman)…both are wanna be tricksters – as Prometheus was to Hermes, jokes of the carnival. They are clowns in homage to the divine. Interesting stuff, Umbrae. I've seen many references to "A Wicked Pack of Cards," I'll have to get that one, sounds indispensible. I would definitely have to do my homework to argue this one with you, you're obviously very well read. but still - I'm sure that I've seen Prometheus compared to Coyote somewhere... I know that parallel wasn't my own, but I read it somewhere. That said, your "Hermes" argument makes perfect sense. That was really good stuff in your post. When it comes to Hermes, however, I DO know that he is often associated with the Bateleur, as the god of thieves and charlatans. The Alchemical tarot in fact depicts the Magician AS Hermes complete with cadeusus ( and MY Magician sports a Cadeusus as well ;) ) ASIDE: For those who aren't familiar, the cadeusus is the symbol often associated with modern medicine of two snakes intertwined around a staff, often a winged staff... And as far a ancient symbols and their modern relevance: Isn't it interesting that the intertwined snakes form the shape of a double helix - the structure of DNA? Back to Hermes: Brian Williams also discusses connections between Hermes and the Magician in his companion book to The Renaissance Tarot, which looked pretty well researched to me. So I think that you would get a pretty lively debate saying that you can't associate the Magician with Hermes (and thus the Trickster). And I'll get back to you on Prometheus :) BTW, I LOVED the "six steps" reference. THAT Coyote is my favorite cartoon character ever. Now matter how badly his brilliant plans go awry, no matter how often he gets blown up or falls off that cliff, he gets back up and keeps trying. THAT's the totem animal for me...

Umbrae	18 Nov 2002
Dude…you’re missing it…(take your hands off the mouse and step away from the keyboard). Take a breath. Breath easy. Now we have Hermes…and we have 78 cards. As a mortal with limits, I can only put Hermes one place. The Fool. Prometheus is a failed trickster…What’s he doing penance for and what is his penance? Do you really want to use that? “Oh and Mrs. Smith…Your liver will be eaten by birds…” Give me a brake dude! Ya gotta take your theory and think about it! (The operation was a success, the patient died). Prometheus was a wanna be, a second fiddle, he belongs nowhere in the pack.

Laurel	18 Nov 2002
I've always thought Prometheus represented one of the core elements of The Hanged Man. Chiron represents another, to me. Odhin a third and Jesus a fourth. I'd never ever call Prometheus or any Dying God a nobody. *ducks Umbrae's sharp jabbing fists* But I am being sincere here and not trying to cause trouble. Laurel

Laurel	18 Nov 2002
*realizes she's really going to get it now* I associate Hermes with both The Magician and The Fool- he's a far more complex archetype than "trickster" and its called Hermetic magic for a reason. *g* However, there are very clear differences between Hermes as a Fool and Hermes as a Magician.. its all about the differences between Potential and Manifestation. Umbrae's reading list is pertinent. There's a lot to this particular god form, and he does have a dark side. Dionysus, for example is an aspect of Hermes in a way, rather than being exclusively separate. Its all a matter of perception and belief. Laurel

dangerdork	18 Nov 2002
I'm breathing fine dude... I brought up Prometheus in the FIRST place just as a demonstration of my own personal oh-so-mortal make-it-up-as-you-go-along interpretation of the archetypes of a card. Hermes works fine there for me, as the Magician. If I am constrained to making a one-to-one, rigid & inflexible correspondence with Hermes to a single card, that is. The point of MY deck is as a vehicle for my own personal interpretation of archetypal imagery, and my Magician DOES have a cadeusus which happens to also be a torch... an allusion to yes, guess who, your favorite wannabe Trickster Prometheus. So now I'm sure you're howling about my combining symbols of Hermes AND Prometheus... how impure! But I happen to like the loose mythic association of Prometheus as the Bringer of Fire - He steals this divine power from the heavens and gives it to Man here on Earth. That is actually a pretty good allegory for the Magician, or at least one of his main interpretations. As the God of travelers and the God of Crossroads, I can see Hermes as being an excellent choice for the Fool, but as God of Thieves, I can see him in Le Bateleur as well. And a personal association: I associate the Magician with doctors, so I want him to have the cadeusus. So there you go. My Fool is more the Feral Child, the Tabula Rasa, the Stranger in a Strange Land. He is also a traveler and a seeker, and to get back to his dog - and to a totally DIFFERENT mythology, let's turn to Hinduism and the Bhagavad-Gita. After spending years as a fair and just ruler of India, Yudhisthira renounces the throne to seek a higher path of spiritual enlightenment. Accompanied by his wife, his brothers and his dog, he sets off through the highest mountains on his quest. Everyone except Yudhisthira and his dog perish during the journey, and when at last Yudhisthira meets the God Indra at the gates of Heaven, Indra refuses to admit the dog. Yudhisthira begs and begs, but to no avail. He is adamant that he will not abandon his companion, and on seeing his resolve, Indra reveals the true identity of the Dog: the God Dharma himself. For whatever it's worth, that story resonates a whole lot with the Fool card to me.

dangerdork	18 Nov 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel I've always thought Prometheus represented one of the core elements of The Hanged Man. Chiron represents another, to me. Odhin a third and Jesus a fourth. I'd never ever call Prometheus or any Dying God a nobody. Go Laurel! I hadn't thought about The Hanged Man for P... I'm with you TOTALLY on that. And I also don't think, as you alluded to in your other post, that a mythic character must be constrained to ONE card. Hermes was a great example. My focus on Prometheus, as I said, was not the "punishment" aspect of the myth but the "Trickster / Giver of Fire." I think those different aspects of a single character's archetypes CAN be split between cards...

Lee	18 Nov 2002
The Mythic Tarot portrays Prometheus as the Hanged Man, fwiw. -- Lee

The Contradictory meanings, other meanings thread was originally posted on 13 Nov 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.