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(cross link) Astrology and Tarot cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.



augursWell  09 Nov 2002 
Quote:
I apologize if this has already been gone over someplace, I did a search and found a little bit but thought I should just ask. :)

I wasn't sure if I should post this to the Astrology forum or one of the other forums as well, I will probably add a short post directing people here to one of the other forums.

I've seen a few ways of assigning the Zodiac Signs, or Houses, to Tarot cards. The most prominent seems to be taking the three top Court cards from each suit and assigning one of the twelve signs to each of these.

What are the various ways that those on this list assign the Zodiac signs to Tarot?
In case anyone here wants to add to this discussion, here's the link:
Astrological Signs and Tarot - How do you assign them?  


Thirteen  09 Nov 2002 
I posted this in the astrology section thread as well.

Quite right that the Knight (Prince), Queen and King (Knight) are the ones that get the Zodiac signs. But which ones are up for debate.

Here's how you can do it. Crowley wise, you can say that the Kings (Knights in Crowley type decks--riding on horses, moving forward, leading) are elementally "fire" (in other words, the King of cups would be the "Fire of water") and thus are the sparks, the spirit, the Cardinal or motivator signs. The idea being that the "King" is the motivator, the creator of the kingdom. So they're Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn.

The Queens are "water" elements (so queen of swords would be "Water of Air") and, thus, the "fixed" signs--the ones that sit on the throne and act as the heart of the Kingdom--they put into practice the ideas sparked by the fiery King, provide their thirsty kingdom with nourishing water. That's Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius.

And the Knights (princes) are "air" signs, this being mutable--they fly here and there, waving the flag of the kingdom. Gemini, Virgo, Sag. and Pisces.

Pages, by the way, are "earth," the root or seed of the kingdom.

HOWEVER--and this is a big HOWEVER, most decks tend to assign the court cards their own Zodiac signs. This means that if you get a deck where the Queen of Pentacles has a crown of ram horns, then, guess what? She's Capricorn. Or if you see the King of Cups with two fish on his throne, he's Pisces.

Be warned that deck creators often decide for themselves which court card should get which sign. And while you can ignore it if you like, it's probably a good idea to just go with the flow. Whatever the deck creator decided, that what you use.

And, finally, you can always decide for yourself. Some folk feel very strongly about which court card should be which zodiac sign. If that's the way it is, go with the feeling. 


DeLani  16 Nov 2002 
aha! A topic I love.
Far be it from me to pit my wits against those who have gone before me, i.e., Crowley & Waite, but I very strongly feel the signs/elements given to the court cards are wrong. (Egads!)
Since I like Crowley's system - it corresponds more with the Pagan worldview - that is the one I will use here.
So, using the elements, I would say that the Queens should be Earth - stable, feminine, fixed, the force of civilization and convention.
Knights would still be fire, as per Crowley.
Princesses would be water - not fixed at all, but flowing, intuitive, creative, playful, unstable.
Princes would remain air.
I think he was on the right track, but perhaps didn't understand the Feminine as well as he should have.
And, using those elements to correspond to Cardinal/Fixed/Mutable signs, Fire/Earth/Water. But then that leaves the Princes out! So what do you do? Perhaps Princesses for feminine mutable signs, and Princes for masculine mutable signs? Not sure how that would work.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
Have fun! 


JC  16 Nov 2002 
The Napo Tarot addresses the elemental question.

Pages = Earth
Knights = Air
Queens = Water
Kings = Fire

Since each suit also has its own element, the court cards adopt some of each element. So the elements of the court cards for the swords would be:

Page: earth of air
Knight: air of air
Queen: water of air (this is one of my favorite QofS's, btw)
King: fire of air

It sounds a little odd, but the illustrations really work for the elemental themes. 


allibee  17 Nov 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by JC
The Napo Tarot addresses the elemental question.

Pages = Earth
Knights = Air
Queens = Water
Kings = Fire

Since each suit also has its own element, the court cards adopt some of each element. So the elements of the court cards for the swords would be:

Page: earth of air
Knight: air of air
Queen: water of air (this is one of my favorite QofS's, btw)
King: fire of air

It sounds a little odd, but the illustrations really work for the elemental themes.




I see what you mean
So, me being the Queen of cups makes me jolly wet, lol

allibee
(drowning :D ) 


Diana  17 Nov 2002 
dear Augurswell: Normally, cross-posting is discouraged on Aeclectic, as it leads to confusion (see posting guidelines). But this time you are forgiven ;) . However, if you ever do it again, you'll have to buy all regular members a new Tarot deck (this is an unwritten rule that I just made up).

As the two threads have gone off into rather different tangents, I'm not going to merge the threads. And I look forward to more and more answers. Perhaps we can turn it into a race: which Forum, Astrology or Using Tarot Cards, will get the most answers. :) 


Thirteen  17 Nov 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by DeLani

So, using the elements, I would say that the Queens should be Earth - stable, feminine, fixed, the force of civilization and convention....

I think he was on the right track, but perhaps didn't understand the Feminine as well as he should have.


He might not have understood the Feminine as well as he ought (seperate argument actually--and I'm not so sure about that "stable" definition of feminine)--but the reason for Queens as water (with princesses the other female as Earth) is a bit more potent than you think (beyond the usual association with the womb, and babes floating in the ocean within each woman, etc). Water is nourishing and life-giving. Without water, earth is nothing but rock. The moon is all earth. Cold and lifeless. The seas are all water--full of life.

The force of civilization is not, I would argue, the Earth, but water, water, water. All great civilizations have, after all, been built near water--on the banks of rivers (the Nile, the Ganges) or lakes or ocean inlets. It is these that allow them to become civilizations. Most landbound kingdoms are, after all, isolated--or nomadic. No libraries or printing presses, no great inventions, no wealth, riches, development. Even more potent, however is that mentally, water is emblematic of psychic abilities. The Queen is the deep, wellspring of psychic powers. Thus, she gives birth to all things, mental and physical, and is always looking to the future.

No, you can't have a kingdom without the stones to build it--which is why you need the Queen's daughters, the princesses, with their rich earth, trees, and stones. They're Prosephines, alternately playing amid fields of flowers and climbing trees in spring and summer, and returning to the underworld of glittering riches in fall. They are young girls, alternately adored for their beauty and fruitfullness, and yet also hidden away, protected, against the harsh winter world.

But if the most POWERFUL feminine thing is life and creation, then the most powerful females (queens) have to be water. Because a single drop of water has the power to sustain living creatures. A single rock crystal cannot. 


augursWell  18 Nov 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by Diana
dear Augurswell: Normally, cross-posting is discouraged on Aeclectic, as it leads to confusion (see posting guidelines). But this time you are forgiven ;) . However, if you ever do it again, you'll have to buy all regular members a new Tarot deck (this is an unwritten rule that I just made up).
I certainly had no intention of breaking the rules. I just thought that those on the Astrology forum might never see the thread if I put it in Reading Tarot and vice versa. I'll have to look around for the Posting Guidelines. Thanks for letting it slide this time. Much as I would like to gift everyone with a Tarot deck, I'm afraid it would have to be virtual Decks bought with virtual money. :D I just made that up too. ;)

I'm looking at some other systems which assign the 12 Astrological signs to certain cards of the Major Arcana. Is it considered normal to have both the Majors and the Court cards assigned Zodiac signs? Possibly interesting correspondences their... 


DeLani  19 Nov 2002 
Dear Thirteen,
You make some very good points. Those points could be made about every one of the elements - without all of which no life could survive.
I just have a different point of view (no more or less valid, I guess). But I see the Queen as being similar to the King in RW decks, meaning mastery, authority, but also the force of rules and justice, tradition, and stability (all of course influenced by the suit they are in). When I said feminine, I certainly didn't mean all women are stable! I just meant the "soft" kind of stability, like the home hearths. All these things seem "earthy" to me. Being a Cappy probably influences that!
Of course all settlements and civilizations need water, and air, and fire as well as earth. I think of it like the "cornerstones," the "foundation," that a stable society is built on. I also see the spirits associated with civilization (agriculture, justice, the family, and in some cultures, writing, mathematics and the arts) as feminine in nature. Some cultures agree with me on that, some don't.
Also, I don't believe Crowley or Waite (or anyone else for that matter!) is the FINAL authority on Tarot. If what they say makes sense, fine. But I don't believe in everything they said.
So, just a different take on it. Maybe coming from a matriarchal family influences me on that a little... :)
Blessings! 


The (cross link) Astrology and Tarot cards thread was originally posted on 09 Nov 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.

 
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