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Elemental Dignities question

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.



Karenwhe  13 Nov 2002 
If anyone know about the Elemental Dignities system, an could advise please, on the following :

On a three card spread, when the main card is a court card (Knight of Cups) which has cancelling energies, the left card is Air (Judgement), and the right card is Active Energies (King of Swords).

1. How would the cancelled energies of the central (main card) impact on the reading (or other energies)?

2. Should the main card be taken as the main energy regardles of the fact that is has No energies (they are cancelled)?

and if not

3. Which one should be the main energy, (Air/Judgement) which is the only core energy left in the spread?

Any help will he much appreciated. This subject is complicated but I am determined to figure it all out.

Thanks 


Thirteen  14 Nov 2002 
First of all, how do you figure "Air/Judgement"? Judgement is Pluto and read as Fire, as I recall.

Second, Majors always top minors, including court cards. So Judgement has more weight than the court card. And King tops Knight, come to that.

Does that help? 


Karenwhe  14 Nov 2002 
First of all thanks, but I must say: owch, I made a mistake wrote Judgement instead of JUSTICE. Sorry, about that.

And Justice is Libra (Air) right?

So, according to what you are saying, is it safe to say that majors always top minors (of any type King top Knight etc) regardless of position?

Thanks, that was a lot of help. 


Jenny-Li  14 Nov 2002 
I am SO intrigued about the Elemental Dignities, but SO sadly ignorant...? Would either of you care to share some good resources for an ED-newbie?

Thank you SO much!

Karenwhe: Sorry I can't give you any insights this time, only sneak in a selfish little request in your thread...! ;) :D ;)

Light and love,
Jenny :) 


RingTheory  14 Nov 2002 
Hi-I use elemental dignities on certains decks, especially the Thoth, in place of reversalls.

I'm sort of confused-your spread was air/water/air....? Or are you equating swords with fire. i.e, air/water/fire?

True, the major arcana card on the left trumps either way.

If you think it's air/water/air, it's mean an emotional idea or situation that you will apply fast(because of the knights) logic, reason, and thought to..air "wins"-not hostile to water, actually complements it during the process.

If you go air/water/fire, it gets a little more complicated. There will be a conflict, due to the water/fire hostility. You will make the decision using logic, but will be more torn.

In a larger spread, it's often useful not just to note the elemntal dignities of the cards, but what element it lacks. But in your case, air dominates the situation, whatever it is.

Hope this helps and doesn't just confuse you worse... 


Karenwhe  14 Nov 2002 
Thanks Ring, it did not confuse me at all. It made sense.

Nevertheless, I still have one minor problem, the Court Cards. In the system I am learning from Paul Hughes-Barlow (http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/beginner.htm), court cards have their energies + house energy. So, lets look at it again from left to right:

1. Justice (libra/air)- so far all cool.

2. Knight of Cups {Knight=Fire, Cups=Water}=and therefore Fire and Water cancel each other, resulting in = No energies or Weak energies.

3. King of Swords {King=Fire, Swords=Air}=Fire and Air are friendly = Active Energies.

I don't know how to interpret the court cards. So, far in this thread I did come to the conclusion that the main energy would be Air (Justice) as it is above minors.

But what about the 2 court cards? And after I figure out what IU actually have, I can look at what is missing? right? or am I confusing now :-0

-----------------------------
A note for Jenny-Li, I wrote above the resources I am using for your reference. I am warning though: This guy is known to have difficult and complex theories, so, expect to be confused at the begining.
-----------------------------

Thanks all again, it all helps and I am getting there, now is just a question of these court cards.

RingTheory, Thirteen, anyone, any further comments will be much appreciated, don't give up on me, I promise I'll get there...

Thanks again, every bit helps. 


Thirteen  14 Nov 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by Karenwhe
1. Justice (libra/air)- so far all cool.

2. Knight of Cups {Knight=Fire, Cups=Water}=and therefore Fire and Water cancel each other, resulting in = No energies or Weak energies.

3. King of Swords {King=Fire, Swords=Air}=Fire and Air are friendly = Active Energies.


Um, wait again. Knights and Kings can't BOTH be fire. Kings are fire (unless you're using Thoth deck in which case, yes, Knights--which are Crowley's Kings--are fire). Knights ("princes" in the Thoth deck) are AIR.

So you've got:

Justice: Air
Knight of Cups: Air/Water
King of Swords: Air/Fire

Fire and water cancel each other out leaving you with Air, Air, Air. 


SlyR  14 Nov 2002 
Actually, Crowley's Knights are the same as Knights in other decks. His Princes represent the kings. The reason has to do with the allegory of a knight winning a maiden (Queen) and producing a King offspring. See the following link: http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/387/ 


Thirteen  14 Nov 2002 
Quote:
Originally posted by SlyR
Actually, Crowley's Knights are the same as Knights in other decks. His Princes represent the kings. The reason has to do with the allegory of a knight winning a maiden (Queen) and producing a King offspring. See the following link: http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/387/


Quite right and I bow to your correction--but my simplicity was technically correct. I mean, RW type decks HAVE a king and no prince. And it's the King who gets the queen (and is fire) in those decks, whereas it's the Knight--who gets the queen--who is fire in Thoth-clones. Right?

And it is the knight in RW-type decks who stands in the missing prince's place, right? And in those decks they are "Air"--just like the princes in Thoth-type decks, no? 


Karenwhe  15 Nov 2002 
For the final comment, I would like to thank everyone for their help.

The problem was solved.

I would like that the problem was actually found in the last thread - a mistake in decks. The deck I use it not the same one in the ED lessons. The confusion came from the King and Knight (Fire and Fire).

In my ignorance I use all my life one deck (though I own others).
I wasn't aware of the differences in the Knight and King in the different decks.

The article posted was wonderful and helped a lot.

I want to thank again everyone, you all have been great help. 


The Elemental Dignities question thread was originally posted on 13 Nov 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.

 
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