Elementals: Passive vs Active?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Nov 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Macavity	29 Nov 2002
OK, in my (ever continuing? :)) elemental studies, I'm getting used to the ideas of Friendly (Neutral) and Unfriendly interactions between card pairs. Water extinguishes fire - therefore diminishing the INFLUENCE of both cards in a spread? But what is the significance of the so-called Active (Neutral) and Passive additional(?) component of this Friendships or Emnity? So far, here's what I understand: A nice "friendly" interaction: Water + Earth = Mud! One can indeed envision this as fairly passive, inertial (gooey even!) stuff. Whereas: Fire + Air = A "blast furnace"? ALSO Friendly (in one sense!) but certainly now very active. But what is the SIGNIFICANCE of this active/passive component? Time-scales? ;) Eeek, there's a LOT of these potential combinations? Would passive enemies be any DIFFERENT from passive friends? Both would be relatively indifferent I suspect? Sounds like a diagram is needed! Mac (probably confusing everyone now) Me + my EX (thankfully!) boss = passive enemies? :D

Celtic_Dragon	05 Dec 2002
Yea, pretty confusing at the end there, but I'm very interested in this subject. I guess for future refrence, nothing is completely passive or active. In the example you gave for the earth and water, passive the combination allows plants to grow. Active a very large mudslide can well, move mountains. A Passive furnice would be a fireplace used for atmosphere for a couple, while active we have forest fires. Then there's the nessesity(sp) with out air, fire would become extinguished and with out something solid to contain it water would, well....it's kinda hard to describe water without a container but I'm sure you probably get the idea. I think the passive and active comes from the balance of the amount. So I suppose applying this to the cards would be how much (place element here) appears in the spread. But also keep in mind the obvious ones aren't always the case. Thunder and lightening is created by air impacting on air. It's electricaly charged air and that's a combination of more air than fire. When that combination impacts on the atmosphere of earth (tree/house) the two cancel each other and what you have is a fire. air/air/fire + air/earth = air/fire/earth The thunder you hear and the lightening you see is the change or the....I forget the term, but the effect of this equation. This is only a theory that I pulled out of my butt. I hope it helps and maybe someone more experienced will put in their two cents.

Macavity	05 Dec 2002
Thanks, Fellow enthusiast! I will read it properly and digest later... :) I think I should perhaps correct one distinctly WRONG assumption on my part. Certainly following the scheme of: http://www.tarotmoon.com/articles/Elemental_Dignities/elemental_dignities.html This contains the statement: "Notice only friendly combinations can be fully active or fully passive. Neutral and unfriendly combinations end up canceling each other's active/passive energy out and being neutral. Therefore, this is mainly useful when assessing cards that are friendly toward one another. will they be actively friendly or only passively friendly?" Working through this, indeed my observations about there being MANY OTHER combinations proves to be untrue. Basically there is something like: Code:           Earth   Water   Fire    Air -------+------------------------------ Earth  |    *     F/P     N/N     U/N    Water  |           *      U/N     N/N Fire   |                   *      F/A Air    |                           * Where F=Friendly; U=Unfriendly; N=Neutral; A=Active; P=Passive. I've missed out the duplicates of symmetry and (presumably?) like combinations are mainly just "more-so"? So there really are only TWO important ones: Friendly/Active (Fire/Air) and Friendly/Passive (Earth/Water)? Perhaps that's the position the experts then take it from :) Mac

Celtic_Dragon	05 Dec 2002
Ah yes! Then I was completely mistaken!! oh well. I suppose that makes sence, I'll have to read the entire article before thourghly responding. But I do like the idea. I've always been nervous about reversals, in fact I still look through all my cards to make sure that they're straight. One day I'll be brave enought, untill then I'll be uh..cheating. My biggest fear is what happens if e-v-e-r-y card turns up reversed? but that's aother thread.....

Macavity	05 Dec 2002
You and me both? I don't think I'd say mistaken - A bit harsh? Fwiw, I'd stay with e.g. some of the physical analogies. Air bubbles, hot ashes - At least they are memorable! :D I still haven't come across (or at least spotted) the exact explanation as to what the consequences of active and passive are... I think perhaps either that article or perhaps Paul Hughes-Barlow at supertarot.co.uk may say something about it(?) - We may have to keep reading! :) Anyway I'm off to bed over here... Thanks for the ideas, which WERE appreciated. Mac

Jewel	06 Dec 2002
So there are only two friendly pairs? one passive and one active? (earth/water; fire/air) and two unfriendly pairs both neutral? I am really confused now ...

Macavity	06 Dec 2002
Looking at e.g. the "Tarot Moon" article (which I used as the basis of my little table) it should be noted that s/he uses the concept of Friendly, Unfriendly and NEUTRAL interactions. S/he also states that the Golden Dawn only use Friendly/Unfriendly ones, thus all the above Neutral interactions are in fact "friendly". According to me, that would make (at least) Earth-Fire and Water-Air also friendly, but (presumably) "Friendly/Neutral" in the above? I too would really LOVE to understand this properly one day :D

Karenwhe	06 Dec 2002
I am studding this too. I found a comprehensive course online (free) I thought it might interest you to check this out. This guy is known to be complex in his theories but he is very thorough. So, if you have the patience and want to practice you can go through his entire course at your pace, he also gives exercises and stuff. I think he is quite interesting but it takes time to get it all. http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/beginner.htm I hope this will helps. Tell me what you think of this.

Macavity	06 Dec 2002
Hi Karenwhe, Yes indeed a very good site. I must admit I have resorted to printing such things out - I need to be sitting comfortably to digest them fully. It can indeed be a bit cryptic - in part due to inherent complexity of the subject? :) You remind me that e.g. for Jewel, the author does give an accurate answer to the question of available combinations of friendly/unfriendly & active/passive e.g. on: http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/05eds.htm Well, at least from a Golden Dawn perspective. It saves me repeating it, with the inherent risk of changing something in the interpretation! Fwiw, I do think PHB's coloured "block" diagrams were a definite innovation to explain this sort of stuff... and quite fun too. The idea of adding the more subjective card interpretation at the highest level appeals to me - perhaps partly because of my general lack of ability to interpret cards intuitively. Heheh ;) Mac

The Elementals: Passive vs Active? thread was originally posted on 29 Nov 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.