Hellfire Sermon on the Subject of Reversals

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Dark Inquisitor	06 Dec 2002
OK- I can't take it anymore. I have been reading for some time about you Reversal-Phobics. Mention an inverted card & you run screaming like a girl scout on fire!!! (You know who you are! Get out from under that bed!) I don't want to hear any of this amby-pamby bs about "I can read the cards anyway I want to--I am only reading for my spiritual growth -- a book told me I don't have to do it, " blah blah blah. As far as I can tell , these are the most popular reasons (excuses) for not using reversals: --They scare me. --They will scare others. --I don't want to know anything bad. --It is too hard to learn them. --78 card meanings are hard enough to learn. --I don't need them. --You are not the boss of me. And then there are the little rituals you have for avoiding reversals-- don't make me laugh!!! Sitting there wasting time, turning all the cards around just so. Shuffling ever so carefully, trying not to step on the cracks on the sidewalk, etc. What rot. You know what I think? ( You don't want to know what I think,- do you? ) I think you think that if you can turn all those cards just so to avoid reversals, that it means YOU are in control. But you're not. Control of anything is just an illusion. A temporary illusion. And that makes you nervous. (Stop screaming , dammit!) Furthermore, I think some of you may be used to thinking you have control. Used to being in control. Used to manipulating others & your environment. And now you are trying to control the Tarot !!!!! Instead of being open to what the Tarot is telling you, you only want to hear half. The pretty half- or so you think! But the Tarot is much older & wiser than you -- and you will only get out of it what you are willing to risk hearing. (Oh quit your crying....) If I were not to use reversals, I would be cutting myself off from half of the options, half of the wisdom & insight available. Why are you willing to do this?? Is your illusion of safety & control so important?? I do not respect this. I do not respect being too lazy to learn the reversed meanings. I do not respect the dishonesty & manipulation of the whole thing ! I don't want to hear it anymore ! Because I know the truth of the matter, so don't try to tell me any fairy stories about it! If you don't like this post, I don't particularly care- it is informational & nothing more. It is not directed at any one person. Your squawking protestations fall on deaf ears! Don't make me do this again!! Tarotphelia

jmd	06 Dec 2002
I can see that some may wish to avoid reversals, as it does give an added complexity to a reading - which I think 'belongs' to Tarot (I personally always read allowing reversals). For a beginner, I suppose the comments you make are similar ones, mutatis mutandis, to what I personally consider also important for a deck: having pips without scenic illustrations. Each gives the initial appearance of so much more to learn, when the cards' meanings are in fact already there, awaiting the open-ness of the reader's inspired imaginative intuition. On one comment you make, however, I have to disagree. You say that 'If I were not to use reversals, I would be cutting myself off from half of the options, half of the wisdom & insight available'. The amount of options removed is far greater than double! Take as an example a three card spread. For the sake of the example, let's say they are all Major Arcanas, and, specifically, VI, VII and VIII - in that order. Allowing for reversals, these are the possibilities: VI, VII, VIII VI R, VII, VIII VI, VII R, VIII VI, VII, VIII R VI R, VII R, VIII VI R, VII, VIII R VI, VII R, VIII R VI R, VII R, VIII R ie, 2^n, where n refers to the number of cards in the spread. Still, I suppose that if someone feels that using reversals (or Marseilles style pips) draws them away from Tarot, then better they use whatever assists them in engaging in this wonderful instrument!

Moongold	06 Dec 2002
Tarotphelia, You sound as though you had a busy week! I did too.... When I first started with the Tarot some of the uprights gave me a hollow pit in the stomach - those Swords, the Devil and the Tower. I think my first post ever here was about that. As time went on and I continued to learn I began to feel more assured about the meaning and value of reversed cards. I think it is just a matter of learning and seeking advice from others. Some of the reversals, particularly with Swords are actually positive readings. When I was very new, about the same time as joined Aeclectic, I posted a query about reversals on TarotL and WOW Mary Greer herself replied. It doesn't matter that I didn't know who she was at the time LOL. I later purchased her book about reversals which is really good and I think I've since purchased nearly all her other books. To help deal with this stuff in the early days (not really so long ago) I would put down some of the challenging cards as significators. The Devil and the Tower got a bit of a work over, and some of the others in reversal mode. That's my rebellious Catholic persona..... The other day I was fooling around on the Mellinetti site and did a free computer reading. Well, nearly every card was reversed but the reading was actually quite positive. I would have whimpered away a few months ago but instead I went to bed and unblocked myself with a little bit of sleep. I'm more concerned about the newbies, just coming to grips with it all. Don't be afraid to express your concerns and worries. The only way to learn is to ask for help. Sometimes the cards are very witty and laugh at you as well. I've had some great satirical messages. Love, laughter and blessings, Moongold

Diana	06 Dec 2002
Not doing reversals doesn't mean I don't interpret the cards correctly when they need to be. A card doesn't need to be reversed to be not "pretty". I do not use reversals. I have seen the Sun, and had my heart sinking into my shoes and tears press against my eyes. I have seen the 9 of Swords (in the RW deck), and smiled, because the key to my problem was given to me on a silver platter. I have seen the King of Cups as an alcoholic, and also as a caring and honest boss. I don't need to see the cards up-side-down to understand what they are telling me. All I need to do is to look at the cards surrounding them and go with my gut feelings. I don't read books up-side-down either. Although I could if I wanted to. Reversals can be useful. I tried them, but I'm not interested.

HudsonGray	06 Dec 2002
Ahh, but books have printed words in them telling us things. The cards are images. The upside down ones mean something too & not everyone can 'connect' psychically with the images as you do. I agree with T. in Chicago (you go girl! Or, um, guy? Girl, right?). If thems half the meanings, why not include them in the learning process? Not all reversals are 'bad'. And most are just extensions of the upright meanings. It's not hard to learn them.

Diana	06 Dec 2002
HudsonGray: You are correct about the books. My parallel, as parallels do often, didn't go very far. Just a clarification: I didn't say reversals are right or wrong, or better or not better. I tried them, and to me, personally, they add nothing nor substract anything from the reading. But I have nothing against them, per se. If people find them useful, that's great.

allibee	06 Dec 2002
I'm totally with Diana on this one and all the points she raises, especially "I don't need to see the cards up-side-down to understand what they are telling me. All I need to do is to look at the cards surrounding them and go with my gut feelings." That's called being intuitive. Maybe tarotophelia and others are not, so need it 'spelled out' with reversals. Quote: But the Tarot is much older & wiser than you -- It's a lot older and wiser than you too, buddy, or do you think you know it all? Quote: If you don't like this post, I don't particularly care- it is informational & nothing more. well, it's not that either, is it. It's just your point of view. I have learned nothing from you....which is the point of information. In fact the only thing I have learned is that you had your panties in a bunch when starting this thread. You know what they say..... those that can, do ...those that can't, preach;) allibee ( I edited this as on my first read through of your post I was merely... interested, but now I'm 'amused' by your assertions.

jmd	06 Dec 2002
In terms of opening oneself up to the images at hand, they certainly present themselves differently when reversed. Whether the person is able to access the pertinent meaning in the situation at hand will depend, I agree with allibee, on one's perceptive abilities. In a similar way in which having 78 cards and a multiple card spread can assist the reader, so can having them in their respective orientations. Presumably, this is independent of the reader's intuitive capacities. During a 'peek' reading, one may have the most astounding revelations even before a single card is upturned. In such a state, even one card isn't really 'interpreted' - however, this goes beyond reading the cards or looking at what they present. Each of us has to, of course, follow what we deem best. To be sure, the cards, in their reversals, present something different to the viewer - which the viewer may 'reject' and force to uprightness (for very good personal reasons). In such a case, of course the cards still have much to tell individually and in context - possibly far more than we may be able to see! Should I, however, reject the 'k' from the alphabet just because it is possible for me do to without it?

anjocoxo	06 Dec 2002
I am sorry, but I don't understand tarophelia's atitude here. What's the problem of reading or not reversals? Everybody's different, we are not all equal and tarot is not a rigid thing, so why should we all go by the same book? Besides it looks like the people who don't read reversal - b/c they don't WANT to, not b/c they don't KNOW HOW to - are just some poor fellows who are lazy enough not to "learn" the reversals. I don't read reversals, period. The reason why is b/c: 1 - I believe tarot cards are like yin and yang - some are good, some could be better, and 2 - like Diana said, the meaning of the card depends from all the others and it's position in the spread. Next thing we'll start to discuss decks ("you CANNOT use that deck, it is stupid to try to use it, bla,bla,bla")... I do what I feel confortable to do; if someone doesn't like, too bad. Anjo PS- I don't reject the "reversal" meaning of a card, I just use when my instinct tells me to use it (even if the card is physically not reversed)

jema	06 Dec 2002
it is not about being lazy, or being afraid, or reading what you might think are the "wrong" books. it is just a tried and true method i have used for 15 years. who are you to say we can't read with elemental dignites instead of reversals? or intuition? for an informal post - why not post something about why reversals are so much better then any other system and why you think they are so demanding (they apperently are since only the lazy sods are not using them) what is so difficult with using reversals in your opinion? jema ps: i still think you could have started this thread in a much better way then with generalistations about those who read another way then you do. but i guess it worked.

Kiama	06 Dec 2002
Firstly: To whoever said 'The Tarot is older than wiser than you', I disagree. I give the cards meaning, they don't give themselves meaning. If I wanna interpret the 5 of Wands as inner conflict rather than physical conflict, there's nothing the Tarot can do about it. I'm the one who has the understanding and, yes, the control. Not some cardboard pictures. Secondly, to Tarotphelia: It's not that I'm being lazy. I know full well what the reversed meanings are, but quite frankly, I gave up on all book meanings a while ago, and now read 'intuitively'. I saw what I see in the pictures. Because I read intuitively, I can still get reversals in meaning of the cards, but the cards themselves are not physically reversed. For instance, sometimes I may get the 2 of Cups, usually a good card, in a particular position, and I'll think: This person is relying on others too much, instead of 'This person is having a wonderful relationship woith somebody else.' It all depends on what my mind says, the position of the card, and the cards surrounding it. Often, the Empress is seen as a good card upright, but there have been many times that I have seen it fortell miscarriage, people being overly smothering, etc... I seriously am hoping that Tarotphelia's post is meant as a humourous thing, cuz I have not seen a post from Tarotphelia being anything but polite and considerate to others so far. Kiama *Who used to use reversals, but doesn't anymore* PS- I don't use any silly rituals or ways to keep the cards upright. I just shuffle them normally, and keep in mind which way up they are! Simple. And I make sure, when I put the cards back into the pack, they are the same way up as all the other cards.

allibee	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Firstly: To whoever said 'The Tarot is older than wiser than you', I disagree. I was actually quoting Tarotphelia ;)

dangerdork	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I give the cards meaning, they don't give themselves meaning. If I wanna interpret the 5 of Wands as inner conflict rather than physical conflict, there's nothing the Tarot can do about it. I'm the one who has the understanding and, yes, the control. Not some cardboard pictures. you GO girl!! I like the tarot cause of the pretty pictures. and I can't see them as well if they're upside down.

Silverlotus	06 Dec 2002
First off, I'll start by saying that I am not a totally intuitive reader, yet. I'm working towards. The decks I have bought recently are helping me towards that end, but I'm not there yet. I do read reversed cards. I always have. When I started reading Tarot, everything I read mentioned reversed cards. (I started with Emily Peach's Tarot Workbook, and Eden Grey's A Complete Guide to the Tarot, if anyone is interested). The first book I read that didn't mention reversals was Mary K. Greer's Tarot for Yourself, and I didn't buy that until I'd been playing around with Tarot for about 10 years. To me, and this is all my own opinion, I see the reversals as giving more shades of meanings to my readings. Perhaps, and this is only a perhaps, I use reversals because I don't read totally intuitively yet. Some cards are still nearly always good to me, and some nearly always care a bad message. Yes, there are times when a bad message is good, and a good bad. But I like the subtler shades I get with reversals. Now, unfortunately I see that this thread my break down into "us against them". The message starting this thread was a bit... inflammatory, but the name of the thread should have tipped you off. A few of the replies have been equally inflammatory for the opposite position. I must admit in the short time I have read this forum this is the closest I have seen people come to... well, almost name calling. Please don't let it get that far. Everyone has their own opinions, but we can express them politely. :) Thank you for reading my little public service announcement, and please don't take it as directed towards anyone in particular. I just enjoy this forum so much, and I dearly want it to stay a friendly place.

fairyhedgehog	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork I like the tarot cause of the pretty pictures. and I can't see them as well if they're upside down. Yay, dangerdork! I couldn't have put it better. Tarotphelia, I loved your post :) I laughed, I chuckled, I enjoyed it all. I don't think I agreed with any of it though }) I've tried reversals several times but I always end up with the bad feeling that I can't read the pictures upside down. It's funny, cos I can read words upside down ... But reversed meanings .... yes, we need all of those. I just prefer to have my cards right side up. At the moment. It isn't graven on tablets of stone either way :D Btw, Silverlotus, don't worry - we all get a bit heated at times in here but I think we are all good enough friends to weather the controversies.

Teal	06 Dec 2002
I don't let what anyone else chooses to do with tarot get under my skin. It's their own business. Live and let live. I can't imagine it bugging me when I read someone else is reading differently than I do. I'm too busy being a student of tarot to have time to let it mess with my head whether someone else reads or doesn't read reversals. I think it would be more constructive to just explain why reading reversals is a plus than to rant on and get personal about it, even with tongue in cheek. I think we still get whatever messages we're individually supposed to get whether we read reversals or not. If you believe tarot has enough life of its own to reverse those cards, don't you think it's got enough life of its own to get the message across to people who don't choose to read reversals, too? I read your whole post and I see you did try to lighten it up with some levity. I hope you won't be offended by my giving my input as I've done here. I respect your opinion, as I do the opinion of all the people who post here. When I've been reading tarot long enough, I may try reversals myself. Keep up the good work! I always learn something from your posts.

Dark Inquisitor	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by allibee In fact the only thing I have learned is that you had your panties in a bunch when starting this thread. allibee [/b] Sorry allibee- so much for intuition on this one! I started this thread out of forum boredom! (snore) (I don't really care who reverses or not, unless they are reading for me personally.) But what I find really interesting is that many of you are saying that even though you are not allowing the cards to be reversed, the reversed meanings are coming into your head anyway!! So much for control. (Please tell us more of your little rituals of uprighting- I find them fascinating & hilarious!!) And yes, HG, I am still a girl. Tarotphelia

Teal	06 Dec 2002
Forum boredom? Not me! I never get bored with the forum! Maybe you've just outgrown us for awhile, Tarotphelia. Would taking a break help maybe? Or maybe you could start a study group on reversals that those of us who don't use them could take part in. Do study groups have to be on a deck? Maybe they could be for other aspects of tarot, too, and you could work in a study of reversals?

Dark Inquisitor	06 Dec 2002
[quote]Originally posted by Teal [b]Forum boredom? Not me! I never get bored with the forum! Maybe you've just outgrown us for awhile, Tarotphelia. Would taking a break help maybe? __HA! (You think you will get rid of me so easily?? ) *Or maybe you could start a study group on reversals that those of us who don't use them could take part in. __No way- that would be far too boring! There is plenty of information about reversals available here already and in books too. The point may not be reversals- it may be an observation about human nature and what happens when the perception of control is questioned. Don't tell anybody. Tarotphelia

Rhiannon	06 Dec 2002
This is a great thread! LOL I laughed so hard at Tarotphelia's first post I almost peed myself. }) I feel bad that some people were offended by it, but I thought it was quite amusing. I used to feel that I was missing half the deck if I did not include reversals, but I don't feel that way anymore. Someone said the last time we discussed this matter that they did an experiment: using reversals for a while and then not using them for a while. They didn't notice a difference in the way they read the cards. Well, I thought I'd give that a try! So, here I am, after a few weeks of reading w/out reversals and I have to say that I agree. I don't need the reversals, the reversed meaning pops into my head whether the card is upside down or not, if it needs to be there. I don't have any elaborate rituals to keep my cards from being reversed. In fact, from now on I'll read the cards whatever way they show up. I've said this before: I once had a reading where all but one card came up in reverse and it was the most accurate reading I've ever done. The reading would have been off if they weren't there, but that was also before my experiment. ;) So, now I will read the cards as they fall, since it doesn't make a difference to me anyway. And thanks for the laughs Tarotphelia, it alleviated my boredom as well! R :)

Diana	06 Dec 2002
I get it now. One doesn't need to have reversed cards to read what is considered reversals. Reversals are different shades of the meanings. And as these different shades can be read whether the card is upright; up-side-down; sideways; or even facing downwards for those really really psychic people who can see through matter, then I reckon it's just a question of personal taste. Of course everyone who reads Tarot has to understand so-called reversed meanings. I just don't call them that way. I call them "different ways of interpreting the arcana". No rituals for me. I just shuffle. and they automatically stay upright. There's no control in that at all. It's the way I shuffle naturally. I hardly ever have a card falling out of my deck - I reckon I'm a good shuffler. Reversed meanings definitely. Reversed cards, if you prefer. With or without sugar. And just a drop of milk, please. P.S. You know what? I found that reading all the cards upright gives me more shades of meaning than when I tried upsidedown cards. I found the up-side-down cards limiting. Go figure.

Major Tom	06 Dec 2002
I laughed too when I read Tarotphelia's post. :D Thought it might of gone more like: "Save your souls from e-ter-nal damnation! Get down on you your knees and say 'I Reverse!' Let me hear you say it again, everybody this time! I Reverse!" :rolleyes: When I started with just the majors I reversed the cards because that's what the book I had told me to do. The book told me I could reverse up to 5 cards for a single reading. It said something about reversing up to 5 cards - if you felt like it - while shuffling. lol Now I did this for a while and then stopped because I'd noticed it didn't really matter how many cards were reversed in terms of the quality of the reading. I'm a rifle and bridge shuffler - can't help it I was raised that way. I always place the deck horizontally on the table and cut the cards so they face the same way, then I rifle, then I bridge and repeat. Looks a bit like a dealer in Vegas. :) I still get a reversed card now and then, but it doesn't really matter. })

allibee	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia Sorry allibee- so much for intuition on this one! I think I mentioned using intuition with respect to using cards at the same time, but anyway , this thread was supposed to be funny, I didn't realise that, I'm sorry. ha ha Look, I really don't mind who reads the tarot which way at all, and I have absolutely nothing against those who read a different way to me, but unless you are the person that invented the tarot, then I don't think you're the right person to expostulate on how it should be read. allibee

ihcoyc	06 Dec 2002
In the decks I use for reading, some cards reverse much more strongly than others. All the trumps and court cards, of course, reverse strongly. But the Cups reverse much more easily than the Wands do, and there are many cards where it is difficult to say which way is "up." I read reversals, but I also take into account whether the design really reverses or whether the card presents a strong visual difference up or down.

dangerdork	06 Dec 2002
Ahhh, nothing like a nice hellfire flame war to warm up a cold winter's day! But now, to find out it's in jest??? 5 of wands, reversed

Scorpion	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork 5 of wands, reversed Not to mention, with bells on! I was wondering how we'd keep warm this winter! For what it's worth - sometimes I reverse and sometimes I don't: what does that make me?........ perhaps I'd better not ask! ;-D

Umbrae	06 Dec 2002
Ahhhh, to be so bored… To act in a caustic manner out of ennui; risking the feelings of others based on an opinion disguised as a certainty – it must be nice – to be special. The beauty of Tarot, is that the reading of it, is an art. There are no absolutes, no hard fast rules. Show Picasso, Dali, Pollack a five of swords upright or reversed, and you will get different answers… In an international venue, we are bound by a few tenuous threads, one being language. When people from outside your culture set meet, great allowance should be made for differences of custom and experience. Wit to one, is an attack to another. Before my wife Starr and I went to Israel and The Arab Republic of Egypt in ‘93, we told friends of our travel plans. We received the same response from almost everybody, “Why would you want to go there”, followed by a disbelieving stare. Trying to explain why to people made it even worse. If we said we were going to visit relatives, the response was total disbelief. “You actually have relatives who live…there?” A few days before departure I began telling people about the numbers, microbes, and clown shoes; sanity, insanity, and love; religion and the big picture; culture and subjective judgments. I began to receive a positive response. Their worst fears were confirmed. I had lost it. I was insane. So just for a second, let us look at sanity… Some state there is a fine line separating sanity from insanity. A fine loosely defined boundary between normal and full boat bonkers. Other’s say there is a mile wide chasm, with no middle of the road. Over there you have your nutzo…over there you have your normies…I do not have the answer, but now days, what is a normie? Now let’s shift the perspective… In some cultures, the number three is held sacred. The three Norns, the three muses, the Holy Trinity; faith, hope, and charity; three’s a charm, disaster comes in threes, Three’s Company, three’s a crowd, The Three Stooges, and The Supremes. In other cultures, it’s the number four. The four elements, the four points of the compass, soup, salad, entrée, and dessert. When multiplied by each other, they make twelve, a truly sacred number. The twelve apostles, the twelve signs of the zodiac, a perfect orange, a hung jury, are all good examples. Perhaps the numbers three and four are sacred. However, it is accepted that numbers are an incomplete way of looking at the BIG (yet cryptic) Picture. Perhaps in a moment we will address the complete way of looking at the big picture, however it’s the numerous incomplete ways of looking at the world that need to be addressed. Let us play make-believe for just a second. Suppose that there is a large room filled with one hundred and fifty clowns. They are all wearing identical one-piece white clown uniforms with big red pom-poms attached and big floppy clown shoes. You are one of those clowns. Each clown is holding a firearm. There are two types of firearms, and both are identical. The first type is a fully loaded, fully automatic weapon. The second type is a squirt gun. It just happens to squirt blood. Warm…human…blood. Eventually the shooting will start. Whether it is curiosity or the shoes, a trigger will be squeezed. Now, which type of clown would you choose to be? You see, survival must and will take precedence over right and wrong, sanity and insanity. Let us alter the perspective a bit more. Do microbes love? Dogs love, cats love, even loggers and whalers love. I believe microbes love (and therefore can be insane). There is this microbe (Microbe A) living in the colon of the Prime Minister of Qatar. Now the Prime Minister eats this falafel from a street vender (while visiting) in Cairo (Egypt). (“Falafel min fadlak…Shukran, saddiq riez.”) Sixteen hours later…Bingo! Microbe A meets Microbe B (remember the falafel?). They meet, fall in love, are fruitful and multiply. Microbe B however was just passing through, and did not stick around too long; but do not let that cheapen what they had, and what they felt. Never cheapen love. The Prime Minister dies of a viral infection caused by the meeting of Microbes A & B. Was Microbe A mad? Microbe A, having destroyed its host through an act of love dies due to its now destroyed environment. Surely, it was mad to have allowed such an act to occur. It’s actions directly caused its death. That is our standard. Love was the killing blow, and all we choose to see at the funeral is the killing blow. Was it love, or simply two microbes passing in the colon? Never cheapen love. Let me back up a bit, and see if someone’s behind me… In referring to problems in the middle-east, we semi-cognizant Americans often say something like “Those Arabs and Jews, the sun must bake their brains…” In the blanket statement of “Those Arabs” most Americans fail to realize that those they are referring to as Arabs really encompass Arabs, Persians, Bedouins, Palestinians, and more. All are separate cultures bound by a language. When we refer to Muslims, we fail to realize that Islam is comprised of different sects, principally the Sunni, Shia, and Druze. When we think of the Christian religion, we over-simplify by thinking Catholic/Protestant. We never even think of the Marionite, Coptic, or Greek Orthodox. All of these are major forces in the Middle East. All of these people are tying to find their niche in a very small area of land (Did you know that the country of Israel is smaller than San Bernardino county?), and use their influence to correct “The Situation” to conform to their concept of the Big Picture. We in our comfortable heated homes pass judgment upon them based on what the media chooses to tell us. We like to determine who’s right and who’s wrong when our survival is not at stake. It’s hard to walk in these clown shoes. If you trip, it’s real easy to squeeze that trigger without even thinking… As Thomas L. Friedman said in From Beirut to Jerusalem “Nothing will ever happen differently in this world, until all people, regardless of culture, begin to love not only their children, but their neighbor’s children, more than they hate their neighbors.” To think any thing else would be insane, however it is the way of life for most of the world’s population. Failure to look at the Big Picture and then make snap judgments without all of the information is insane. Yet, we do it daily. Spreading an antagonistic attitude, based on boredom – is to ignore the clown shoes. Oops…You know it’s hard to walk in these clown shoes…We’re both wearing them, so let’s please watch where we’re going…

dangerdork	06 Dec 2002
UMBRAE!!! Sartre would be proud... (sniffle)

Scorpion	06 Dec 2002
Umbrae WOW! And a very humble "thank you".

jema	06 Dec 2002
this hobo just adored the post from the clown umbrae. i never been good with irony in english. swedish irony is ok with me. i never liked it much at all though.

Thirteen	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray Ahh, but books have printed words in them telling us things. The cards are images. You make it seem like Diana was comparing apples and oranges by arguing that reading reversals is like reading an upside down book. It's not apples and oranges at all. In fact, it's quite apt. The pictures, if the deck has pictures, are meant to be gazed at right-side-up. Most decks do NOT have ink blots which change appearance depending on how viewed. Usually, there's ground and sky and people in the middle, far more like a classical painting (I do have one deck with very abstract images, and it's the one deck that I would consider using reversals with). Now you can turn Rennissance paintings upsidedown, but that isn't how they were meant to be viewed; and it could be argued that while you might get a new perspective on those paintings, you could ALSO miss important aspects of the image that the painter wanted you to see. Such paintings, like tarot cards, are filled with emblems and symbols in certain places, with certain interactions, that can be "read". Turn them upside-down and you may miss those. Similarly, you can't read hieroglyphiics upside-down, though they are images. Similarly, it's harder to READ words upside down, and so miss the story, meaning, information. Diana's comparison was perfectly apt. For the record, I'm sorry to hear our forum has grown so dull that it requires inflammatory posts to liven it up. I am glad, however, to learn that Tarotphilia's post was meant to be humorous and not insulting, as, orginally, I was insulted. In the future I will remember not to take her posts seriously.

Laurel	06 Dec 2002
I've had the same experiences as Diana; opting to have all my cards facing the same way helps me decipher all the "greys" in the meaning better. But just for the sake of change and to prove I'm woman enough to take up the gauntlet to not wussy out on anything "hard", I'm taking my Thoth deck and mixing them all up and for the next 12.5 months, I'll read with reversals included and take notes to see what if any impact that seems to have on the readings themselves. Laurel

cricket	06 Dec 2002
I'm one of those that uses reversed -meanings- but not -physical- reversals. If I were to try those (and I have) people around me start laughing. Hard. All I can do is sit and stare at the picture like a monkey with an advanced algebra book. Nothing happens. *snickers* Guess I'm only half stuck with that eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-TERN-al damn-AAA-tion. Amen and hallelujah, brothahs! ;)

dangerdork	06 Dec 2002
well, then I'm going to mix all my decks together, cut off all their borders, and turn them ALL upside down. THEN I'm going to cut out all the definitions in all my LWBs, slice off the names of the cards, put the definitions all in a box and whatever definition I pull out of the box will be the meaning of the selected upside down card, since I don't know what it is anyway. Or not. maybe I'll bake them into cookies. and the entire time, I will be singing "La Marseilllaise" in Swahili and wearing clown shoes. Anyone who doesn't do it this way doesn't know what they're doing and should have all their decks taken away. And sent to me. and the Tower is STILL bad.

Dark Inquisitor	06 Dec 2002
Umbrae, you forgot to list our hymns for today.... Tarotphelia

RedWood	06 Dec 2002
How about the Hym "Onward Christian Soldiers"? I always liked that one. I dont use what you call "reversals" it is merely a label..I see what I need to see with the cards not turned around..

RedWood	06 Dec 2002
Oh yeah..I forgot..I find using "reversals" to be a pain in the arse..I mean really..I have to swirl them..and then put them backtogether and by the time I get done..My son is there..slowly ...milimeter by milimeter(sp?) ..reaching for the cards..Also..maybe I need that extra time by not using reversals to learn how to spell again!! Not to mention..I SEE IT ALL UPRIGHT HAHAHAHAH

HOLMES	06 Dec 2002
i am a big tarot reversals fan taking it easy when it comes to them. they are not scary .. (death reversed oh no what does it mean ?) the reversals to me means shadow of the things to come or are going to happen. death reversed you are denying it ,, though the influences are veyr much in your life, devil reversed, your bondage ot your desires ,,and can't see how tied up you are.. or bondage ot your fears. ten of swords reversed, the mental problems you are having you can not see it, you are attacking yourself (swords meaning mental ot me rather then strife) i shuffle my decks well and i fined that most of them come out reversed, but in truth it is a good thing as most tarot books say that reversal of cards say blocked energies and how true that is . and why shouldn't we as tarot readers be as honest as we can be. and if they the clients didn't have reversals energies then they woudn't need a reading eh ? rare is it the truly postive reading that comes true like you read about in the movies or see in the tv. or in stories. but that is life after all and the tarot is about helping us deal with it,, giviing us the message this too shall pass,,, the tomorrow shall be a better day if not then then the next. and so reversals energies must be dealt with.. if we are to grow

Diana	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by dangerdork Anyone who doesn't do it this way doesn't know what they're doing and should have all their decks taken away. And sent to me. and the Tower is STILL bad. I can't send you my decks. Because my Tower, amongst its very many shades of meanings, has one meaning that is GOOD! And if you don't see it this way, then my Tower will be so sad and will pine away and will probably slowly fade and fade, until there's nothing left on the card to see at all except a border (if you haven't cut it off yet).

RedWood	06 Dec 2002
I disagree with you Holmes..You dont have to use reversals to grow..If a person can read with toothpicks and tea leaves and crystals..those dont use reversals..then why should tarot? I can see the good and the bad with an upright card...TO me..and everyone says..do what feels right..well as I stated before..using reversals is a pain in the butt..i dont need it..so why make it more complicated trying to get reversals to get the same info i would upright... To each their own..do what works for you!

RedWood	06 Dec 2002
I agree with Diana..The Tower is one of my favorite cards..as is the 9 of swords...Yes they can be "bad" but so can all the other cards...I like change..i Grow from change...LONG LIVE THE TOWER!

dangerdork	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana my Tower will be so sad and will pine away and will probably slowly fade and fade, until there's nothing left on the card to see at all except a border (if you haven't cut it off yet). Well, it's better to burn out than fade away, and isn't THAT what the tower is all about? It's allowed to have that as a good meaning, as well as earth-shattering sex. In fact, ALL the cards are allowed to mean earth-shattering sex. Guess I can throw away the LWBs after all. PS - I *KNEW* I could revive that Tower war! Mwuuu hahahahaha!

RedWood	06 Dec 2002
OMG dangerdork...LOLOL!!!

HOLMES	06 Dec 2002
hate to be a spoil sport but aren't we getting off the topic of the tarot reversals , hell fire or not :O)

RedWood	06 Dec 2002
Nope holmes..we were discussing the reversal of the tower!

zorya	06 Dec 2002
for years i always used reversals. after a conversation, with another reader, about not using them, i decided to ask the cards what to do. it was a unamimous "upright"! being the questioner of authority that i am, and not being willing to give up my idea, that i would lose half of the interpretations, i decided to do a test. i alternated readings, first up, then reversed etc. keeping a journal. well, it wasn't long before i discovered that my upright readings were not only clearer to read, but they were more accurate. now i realize that both interpretations are inherent in each card. i use the "meaning" based on the surrounding cards and the position.

dangerdork	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES hate to be a spoil sport but aren't we getting off the topic of the tarot reversals , hell fire or not :O) Off the subject? Dude, how did you ever make it past the part a couple pages back with the Palestinian clown shoes and the squirt guns full of warm human blood? We're reversed all right, we're through the looking glass here...

HOLMES	06 Dec 2002
i made it through by being a friend to tarotphelia and trying to see some good reversals arguements. no you don't have to use reversals to grow as just sitting there mediating will do it,, but like a person who never tries the cookie because they like peanut butter cookie instead of the new fangled cookie.. (reminds me of the comerical for tim hortons i like soups with just one name, what is yours , tureky souip with wild rice and he says that crazy ) so tarot reversals can really work if given the effort,, but then again so can be said for the postional reading of the celtic cross using illustrated instead of pips i freely admit since i first started to use the tarot i used reversals as i was a book learner and no boosk i read with told me not to do so i learned. sigh that being said i love reversals as it adds so much more to the reading. take for exampele death card in the present postion of the celticl question umm lets say how is our relationship going to work i would say i see that your going through a change.. however i never use reversals then that is all i can say but if i know about reversals and it doesnt' come up i can say you both are embracing a change for if it was reversed i would say to you that you are both trying to fight the natural nature of relationship annd holding on to the past instead of growing for the future. oh for the enviroment 8 of wands. same question your relationship is being influence to be more creative by the relationship like you want stuff to happen to fast. why is that . ? could it be that sitation dictates that you msut act fast when you are together ( here i hope that they would say to me yes we are apart alot or something to back up my inpression) it is not reversed therefore you don't have to worry about delays the majority of the time oh outcome ah three of pentacles reversed same quesiton you hoping it will get better but the reversals of this card shows that lots of physcial work must be done in order to get to the mastery card of 8 of pentacles ( not using the 78 degrees menaing here ) so you sicne it is a relationship question you two must spend more time together, as you two are growing apart because of lack of tiem together. so in my view and i freely admit in my view reversals or at least in depth knowledge of them can and will greatly help a reading. now for my secret admission .. i am so attached to my tarot reversals that i never tried it stright up ,, just doesn't right to my systemic mind (those who read my major tarot realizations thread know what i mean )

Umbrae	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES that being said i love reversals as it adds so much more to the reading. Sorry buddy, but I have to call you out on that one. Reversals add nothing to a reading. Nothing. When one reads bones, entrails, pig-droppings - there are no reversals. As said earlier… Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae The beauty of Tarot, is that the reading of it, is an art. There are no absolutes, no hard fast rules. It does not matter if you read with tarot, or which deck. It does not matter if you read with regular playing cards. Only one thing matters… What occurs between you and the sitter… That’s it… Everything else is opinion…and it may not be valid…especially if stated in a manner meant hurt others.

allibee	06 Dec 2002
OK, I promised myself not to post on this thread again, but I can't resist (is that a reversal?) That is how I learned all aspects of the cards - up, down, left, right, and especially, inbetween - by filling numerous journals with all the meanings I could muster, summerizing and adding my own experiences and reactions in each and every successive journal, and transposing the words 'reversed meanings' for the words 'but' and 'however'. So I do the reading with the entirety of the card's seen and unseen values, not just half - up or down - that's how I get a balanced, and meaningful reading. That's how I dig deeper into the truth of what the tarot offers. Not just the superficial tip of the iceberg type stuff. Pick a card, any card........throw down your favourite spread, whatever: A) "So and so has come into your life at this point, blah, blah, blah...... BUT, if you accept this/ do this, be aware that xyz may result, so try and maintain a balanced outlook on this situation, blah, blah, blah......" ------ or.... B) "I feel there is a lot of negativity around xyz in your family, blah, blah, blah.....HOWEVER, if you are able to see a,b and c, about this person, this confrontation may be lessened blah, blah, blah...." C) any other card that speaks out in relation to the Q and the throw. All this from one card. If you aspire to read reversals in a mixed spread as just that, a reversal, then you are losing half the meaning of the cards. IMHO But that's just my take on it allibee

DarkElectric	06 Dec 2002
Shake, Rattle, and Roll... After reading all of the responses to this thread, I think I'll go back to taking joyrides in my clothes dryer, on the cool, delicate cycle of course. Then everything will be reversed for about 2 hours.

aeonx	06 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom "Save your souls from e-ter-nal damnation! Get down on you your knees and say 'I Reverse!' Let me hear you say it again, everybody this time! I Reverse!" I tried *hahaha* really hard to get through *sigh* the whole thread before posting *l*, but this one made me fall off the chair *ROFLMAO*. I'm having problems typing *gigglesnort* because I'm laughing my *** off!! *lol*:D The post caught my sight when I saw that it had gotten 50 replies in one day!! WOWOWOW! This had to be something interesting! And indeed it was. I laughed really hard when I read Tarotphelia's hilarious post! I absolutely loved it! I cannot understand how anybody could take this the 'wrong' way. I love the irony and the sarcasm Tarotphelia! *lol* OK, back to reading the rest.... ~aeonx~

aeonx	06 Dec 2002
wow... OK, people got offended. Hm. Well, I guess we all see things differently. :rolleyes: :eek: :confused: Anyway, I'm sorry to see some of you guys upset. I think this is the time for a good ol' group hug. *hug* :) ~aeonx~

ihcoyc	06 Dec 2002
My challenge to you is this: Do you have the courage to read the cards sideways ?

Macavity	06 Dec 2002
Hehe. "Real wo/men use Elemental Dignities?" :D Reminds me of: "Real Programmers Don't Use Pascal". For those not as OLD as me... http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html Mac

HOLMES	07 Dec 2002
ihyoc ,, i normally dont' adress people in posts except for a few times, (least i think so eheh) but reading cards sideaways,, interesting up postive down blocked and sideways, ? neutral ? modified by the cards surrounding it ? or would it ? read a card sidewise and soemone would start to call card facing right upright and card reversed facing left (or vice versal) eheh *offers cheers to ihyoc*

Candle Shadow	07 Dec 2002
I read somewhere that reversals weren't really used until modern times. Can someone wiser than me (shouldn't be hard to find) confirm or deny this?

jmd	07 Dec 2002
What an incredible growth of a thread this has become! Umbrae, I like your near opening sentence of your ealier post: '[...] an opinion disguised as a certainty - it must be nice - to be special' followed immediately by 'There are no absolutes, no hard fast rules' ;) Though using reversals may not add to a reading (as this will, of course, depend on the individual), I do think that the intent of Holmes's sentence was that using reversals adds to the possibilities of what is presented in a spread (mathematically it of course does). Candle Shadow (welcome to Aeclectic - and what a thread to begin your posts in :)) asks about the modern-ness of reversals. Historically, this certainly goes back to at least the 18th century with Etteilla (Alliette). It may, of course, actually have been used earlier.

Kiama	07 Dec 2002
I am sorry to say that I am very offended still. Tarotphelia said something aloing the lines of: I hear the intuitive meaning spop into your head. So much for control' And that hurt... I don't think she understands the way I read... I LOOK at the images, not try and remember meanings dictated to me by books etc. If I were to use Minors, I would not only find it difficult LOOKING at the cards (Cuz they'd be upside down!) but I would also be thinking of the traditionally accepted meaning for teh card when it's upright, and reversing it.. And that's not the way I do things. I used to, for about 7 years, but then realised that memorising meanings was not good for me, the readee, or the reading. Out of all the readings I have done for people without reversals, not one has been off. And it's not that the meanings just 'pop' into my head, thus indicating no control. As I said previously, I look at the pictures, look at teh surrounding cards, look at the querent, look at the position of the cards... Sometimes, I even find that the ways the Courts are facing gives meanig. For instance, one reading for a friend recently had the King of Cups, 10 of Swords, and Queen of Cups for the Robin WOod deck, in that order... The Father, looking down on the figure in the 10 of Swords, as is the Mother... I took this to mean the parents of this person quarrelling alot with him, and causing him to feel totally destroyed. The other cards in teh readings then suggested he would leave home. Would I have got this very accurate reading, if I had been trying to remember memorised meanings for the cards? Doubt it. Just cuz I use my intuition, just cuz I don't use meanings dictated to me from a book, does not mean I am not in control. I shuffle the cards, I look at the cards, I give meaning. The cards do not shout out, 'Hey Kiama, this is what I mean!' My mind says 'Hey, Kiama, this is what the cards mean!' As I said, I am very offended by all this, but that's probably cuz I am feeling very senstive lately. Kiama

catboxer	07 Dec 2002
Well, I have to confess that I do it, but only a little bit. Reverse, that is. Yes, I'm a reverser, but only in moderation. Before I start to shuffle I reverse three cards (I forget where I picked up that suggestion). So in the usual nine-card spread that I do, the chances of getting a reversed card are slim. I only get one every once in awhile, and have never drawn more than one. However, having said that, I must add that I think everyone should do it that way. In fact, if you don't reverse at least a little bit it will probably wreck your life. If people obstinately persist in not reversing, it could mean the end of civilization as we know it. Also, I would strongly admonish everyone here to start using pink air in your car's tires. Pink air is available at certain service stations whose names and locations are a well-guarded secret, exclusively available to select initiates in several secret societies which teach the correct doctrines, which can only be understood after years of study. But once you realize that pink air makes your tires rounder, actually makes them roll farther, I'm sure you'll agree that acquiring the requisite information is worth the effort, and you'll see it my way.

Scorpion	07 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I am sorry to say that I am very offended still. Tarotphelia said something aloing the lines of: I hear the intuitive meaning spop into your head. So much for control' And that hurt... I don't think she understands the way I read... Kiama and Tarotphelia I can understand why Kiama is still upset and why a few people have taken the original post as an attack of sorts. We've had similar things before and it's clear that what one person thinks is safe and/or funny to just throw down is likely to hurt someone else, without that ever being the intention. I've said before that it's all down to the fact that we're communicating purely by text and without body language or even being able to tell from the tone of someone's voice whether they're dead serious or just joking, someone is quite likely to get hurt in the crossfire. I certainly wouldn't want to be a newbie walking into that first "shot over the bows" by Tarotphelia, even though I know it's not to be taken seriously. Kiama, you're obviously wounded by Tarotphelia's retort but you did say you're feeling particularly sensitive at the moment. Hopefully you can see it in the no doubt frivolous way Tarotphelia intended it given time. I find I'm reading more and more the way you do and looking at my bookcase which is just creaking with the likes of Pollack and Greer et all and wondering why I ever bothered: literally reading the cards is so much easier! Quote: Originally posted by catboxer If people obstinately persist in not reversing, it could mean the end of civilization as we know it. Oh, Catboxer - surely not!!! How can we ever make amends? There's just too many decks and too many non-reversers to save the planet.... where's Flash Gordon when you need him....... Quote: Also, I would strongly admonish everyone here to start using pink air in your car's tires. No, no - we can only get green air in this neighbourhood - what can I do?

Diana	07 Dec 2002
A woman I know who has done Tarot readings for many years, when I asked her a couple of years ago about reversed cards, looked at me rather strangely and said in her rather distinguished voice: "Ma chérie, plus personne n'utilise cette ancienne méthode". Which translates as: "My darling, no one uses that old method anymore". Not saying she's right or wrong. But obviously in her Tarot world, people didn't bother with them.

allibee	07 Dec 2002
LouiQ, you are absolutely right there. In this text environment, unless a person has read absolutely every post ever made by Tarotphelia, how is anyone supposed to realise when its a joke? It was pointed out by other posters that this was a joke, though not by Tarotphelia herself. In fact I still see nothing to that effect from her. Catboxer on the other hand, and his hot air, er, pink air theory, made a point about something of a non existant nature. We therefore can assume with 'some' certainty, that he is making a joke. Reversals do exist, along with some people's ideal way of converting others by using belittling, intimidation tactics. Therefore, how are we supposed to know that the post that started this thread was a joke???????? If I said to you Tarotphelia that "you must have been out of your mind on drugs when you made your original post" - how would you know I was joking? If you did not think it a joke, would you have been insulted???????

Dark Inquisitor	07 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by allibee *In this text environment, unless a person has read absolutely every post ever made by Tarotphelia, how is anyone supposed to realise when its a joke? __I thought the original presentation, being sufficiently outrageous as it was, would have been enough, plus I did indicate somewhere along the line it was not made in a serious way. Others seem to have gotten that part. Some others also never had a mistake about it from the beginning. I hate to have to preface everything like the warning labels on cigarettes. I also think people outside of the US are very capable thinking for themselves and understanding things. Our schools are mostly abysmal and they are better educated, I think. *If I said to you Tarotphelia that "you must have been out of your mind on drugs when you made your original post" - how would you know I was joking? If you did not think it a joke, would you have been insulted??????? [/b] __If you said that to me I would think it was kind of outspoken. But I like outspoken. I might also think it was somewhat funny. The idea of being out of my mind on drugs sounds like fun, but of course, that is not anything I can do. And since I am not out of my mind on drugs, the statement doesn't affect me enough to anger me. Actually, you allibee, did say something insulting, as have others. Something about me being unintuitive, and" those that can do & those that can't..." But I understood you knew nothing about me, and you are outspoken & were speaking your mind. I like it when people speak their mind, even if I don't agree. And because I don't agree does not mean we cannot be friends. I did not feel like I had to rake you over the coals about it. I have seen many instances where people will take a minor statement & make a really big deal about it, screaming about their offense. I prefer to think you are probably a good person, and I wish more people would give everyone here that benefit . I have also seen instances where minor things have been blown up so much, and self-righteous attitudes have been so virulent it has caused people to leave. And I am sorry about that, because I miss the creativity of many of them. My original post was intended to be humorous - and yes, shocking , but also contains a few grains of truth. Control issues in our lives can stand to be examined. I am sorry if some of you are hurt, that was not my intent. I have also been accused of intending to hurt people, but if it were truly my wish to do that, this feeble effort would fall far short of what I would expect of myself on such a diabolical mission. On the whole , I think it has been a fruitful experiment. It got you thinking, posting , talking . You have learned something about me, and I have learned many things about you. If you look closely, you may also learn things about yourselves. If you insist, in the future, I will put a warning label on my posts. (snore) But I also insist that all of you who are upset consider your readiness to attribute the worst possible motivations to someone else. And collectively you might want to try to lighten up a bit - I think it would be good for the general atmosphere. Tarotphelia

HOLMES	07 Dec 2002
hellfire sermons besides the point it is true that we are on two sides of the camps one who uses reversals and acclaims thems like myself one who doesn't uses reversals and read just as good as themselves. my one purpose was to say that tarot reversals are just as valid and adds much depth once stuided ( i dont say master 12 years one and not even close i am eheh ) now i am going to answer my friend orginal post here she can't take it no more eheh reversal-phobics are true in some regards, of some people like in much socity , upright phobic is what i am soon as i get a deck i mix them up despite they not read with reversed meanings like inner child cards for example she wanted people to speak on the regard, yet it is true you can and do read the cards anyway you want as i do, we all read for our growth, and some say hell with books :O) they are dunting, they are dunting to others who know something abotu tarot and even not --I don't want to know anything bad. who does want to know anything bad eheh (uses no reversals no swords and take out the devil and deatha nd the tower when she reads, well the devil and death i know for sure i don't know aobut swords as i havne't had a reading from here in quite some time ). true it is hard to read with them but can add so much more --78 card meanings are hard enough to learn. aye they are,, but might as well learn 144 meanings and learn how they criss cross and modify each other aye you dont' need them , but i do eheh aye no one is the boss of another i never heard of these rituals myself though You know what I think? ( You don't want to know what I think,- do you? ) i want to know as everyone has a right to their opnion notice she didn't use no names, this is true in some regards ,, i make sure i got the cards well shuffled so i by shuffling control randomness if that makes any sense control is a illusion come ot think of it we can't control the weather , or life and death to a greater extent ( when our numbers are up they are up ) aye the universe is much wiser and when we use the tarot we try to conect to the universe, tarotp knows this, in most books it says the symbols of the tarot are very old , so the higher self using the tarot communciate to us through these symbols that fall when we look at cards i agree with the point ,,though not the way it was said eheh crazy tarot here she is saying she doens't respect those who don't use reversals i may of come out so strongly for tarot reversals that i forgot to mention that i myself speaking for myself do respect those who use upright ,, if they tried reversals for some time and couldnt' make heads or tails out of them , perhpas some day they will try agian.. and i wish for those who are overwealmed with reversals to get the tarot reversals book by mary k greer and the tarot shadow work by christine jette, (my own way of understanding the tarot not for everyone ) she made it clear it wasnt' directed at anyone person and was meant for imforation . she is not the first to use this method and won't be the last. nevermind sermons , but i realize that i myself of come across as preachy in my tarot reversals posts 1. i wanted us to stay on topics, and not get mad 2. i thought of all the good reasons why tarot reversals work to my mind. tarot reversals do not mean nothing , to some but they mean so much to me

RedWood	07 Dec 2002
Holmes I understand what you are saying ....I am one who chooses not to use reversals..the only point i would like to make about your post is: When you stated why not learn 144 meanings..along with the 78..the point I want to make is..I dont learn the meanings..I go buy intuition..as many do..and I am sure you do to..By not using books..I dont need to learn any meanings..let alone 144 or 78..or 94 or whatever else that deck calls for.

jema	07 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia But I also insist that all of you who are upset consider your readiness to attribute the worst possible motivations to someone else. And collectively you might want to try to lighten up a bit - I think it would be good for the general atmosphere. Tarotphelia i think being upset has nothing to do with attributing the worst possible intent. but when i read things that are really negative and narrow minded and condemning others i call it for what it is. so this may sound horribly boring, but irony is tricky to convey on the net and especially on an international forum. to lighten up is not the same thing as calling others lazy, afraid, control freaks etc. the reversed or not reversed discussion has been up a lot of times and every time it is just putting into the forefront that which divides us and not that which we have in common. so aside from all trampled toes and hellsermons i ask this again: WHY do some think it is so difficult to do reversals? holmes wrote about learning 144 or 78 meanings but that can't be it. learning the tarot has really nothing to do with learning a set number of meanings and if it does the number of meanings would rather be somewhere between 1500-2500 and not a measly 144. (and suddenly i get flashbacks from a childhood where 144000 was of vital importans - those that know about the jehovas will know what i mean) oh and the really funny thing is that it seems like it might be the people actually reading with reversals who think they are tricky and demanding to learn. how come? no one of those who say they do not use reversals ever put down "hard to learn" as a reason for not using them. no one put down the reason to be "wanting full control" either. hmmm...

allibee	07 Dec 2002
Quote: Actually, you allibee, did say something insulting, as have others. Something about me being unintuitive, notice in my original post it was prefaced with 'maybe'. It does not present itself as the only way to see it. Quote: My original post was intended to be humorous - and yes, shocking ,.............. I am sorry if some of you are hurt, that was not my intent. Thank you. It's just a shame that it took 63 posts, and quite a few peoples feelings to find that out. As you say, perhaps a disclaimer would be a good idea too, so I can remember not to post. Quote: I have also been accused of intending to hurt people, but if it were truly my wish to do that, this feeble effort would fall far short of what I would expect of myself on such a diabolical mission. Likewise, I'm sure. Yes jema, I feel the issue of 'control' is the real reason behind this thread. It's been stated as such from the off, in a very controlling way. Just a shame it all went so out of control. ;)

jmd	07 Dec 2002
catboxer - I am udder-ly dis/a-pointed! revealing that there even are secret societies - and the usage of the unmentionable: AIR ! As Kiama mentioned, when reading it is not (for most of us, I presume) the 'stated meaning(s)' of the individual cards which are important, but how they present themselves to us in a particular situation/spread. In that sense, again with the example given by Kiama, by only using uprights, the Robin Wood King of Cups and Queen of swords are not even permitted to look away from the ten of swords if they fall in the order mentioned. Certainly, other cards would either fall, or the reader's sense of what is at hand would differ for those who use reversals and those who don't. Still, this is such a wonderful illustration (nothing more) of how reversals may be useful: spread just those three cards consecutively, and in that order reverse one or more cards and see the differences which present themselves. This is not about memorised meanings, but simply just seeing what is at hand. Of course, those who do not wish to use reversals will not do so, and neither will they use the only true and correct tyre air ...as for green air, I hadn't realised the forces of the &^%# side had managed expression! ;)

aeonx	07 Dec 2002
I felt a need for replying to this thread once more. It is certainly true that these kinds of discussions have occured more than a few times on Aeclectic. Some of these have even made people feel forced to leave the forum. That is a shame. I've been in the middle of the same thing one time, and I can assure you that it was no fun. Especially since I was new and was 'arguing' with some of the oldest members. Felt like an intruder that was told right away how things worked around here. The incident almost made me leave Aeclectic forever. Luckily, my newly-found addiction for the forum made me stay. :D I think we all can agree now that everyone's points have been made. Pretty clear. It's also evident that people have different point of views when it comes to certain issues. This is of course inevitable. My final point is: Now that everything's been sorted out, why don't we all just calm down, stop feeling offended and hurt -all parts have apologised- and move on. I think that saying "I'm sorry" really means something. And as the open-minded people we're so hard trying to show we are: Forget the unfortunate debate about who said what to whom and who hurt which ones etc etc... We are different. I don't need to tell you that. But please. I sincerely ask all of you to stop this discussion from turning into an ugly one. Now - SMILE! Clean out all that annoyance from your hearts, and let in a fresh air of reconcilation. Don't make new people leave the forum due to misunderstandings. Please. ~aeonx~

Alex	07 Dec 2002
when I'm having a P.M.S. Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia OK- I can't take it anymore.

Dark Inquisitor	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Alex when I'm having a P.M.S. Here is a prime example of what I am talking about. As of this moment, I don't anything about Alex, nor have I had any interaction with her that I can remember. She has made a comment that could be taken a few different ways. And it was directed to me personally. If I wanted to be insulted by it, I could be. For hundreds of years, people of both sexes have used statements like that to trivialize the words & actions of women. As a rule, I am not for menstrual humor- it is literally a painful subject & so has no humorous associations for me. (And no, pms has had no bearing here at all) Now, if I really wanted to, I could get out the verbal axe and use it on Alex right now. But, since she has not shown up at my door to threaten me in any way, and to my knowledge has hatched no plots against me, I am not going to do that.( Why WOULD I do that?) I am assuming she meant me no harm. And that she finds her comment humorous. And she is probably a good person, and will remain so in my eyes until she does something diabolical against me personally that there is no doubt about. I can live with that. She has expressed herself- good for her-it's no big deal. I am not the committee to decide who says what . Someday, I might want Alex to be a friend- who knows? I will not forever harbor in my mind that she was the one who made that pms remark! Maybe someday, I will see humor in her statement too. It is not worth an apology, an argument, an anything. Ordinarily, I would not mention it at all. I only bring it up here because it was too timely not to. Tarotphelia

Diana	08 Dec 2002
Right, moderator stepping in here. First of all, I want to thank Tarotphelia for keeping her cool. Especially in her last post. I would like to ask everyone who has felt offended to put things in their correct perspective. Tarotphelia's original post was meant to be humourous. It was not perceived by everyone to be as such, but this does not take away the original intention. Whether you appreciate this kind of humour or not is another thing, and there was no harm in mentioning this. It is good to get one's feelings into the open, before the wounds fester. Tarotphelia obviously brought up a big issue for Tarot enthusiasts - reversals or not reversals (To Be or Not To Be?). It is an issue that I think deserves being discussed even further, considering the debate that has been going on for the last couple of days. Also I don't think that this thread is causing as much trouble as some of you seem to think it is. It is a storm in a tea-cup. And if someone leaves the forum because of this kind of incident, then I am really sorry for them - what do they do in Real Life when there are incidents? Walk out and slam the door, or try and find a solution? I beg you all to continue contributing your views on reversals. And I hope that Tarotphelia will step in too and tell us more about what she thinks of them. Thank you for hearing me out.

allibee	08 Dec 2002
Anyway, in view of Diana's post: to reverse or not to reverse, that is the question,(and appropriately)whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. (Shakespeare....almost,LOL) Has anyone done a poll yet on who does and who doesn't? Or rather, how many do, or how many don't? I for one would be interested in hearing about this, to see if, as some feel, it is a phase passing out of popular use, along with Madame Arcarti style outfits. How do the people that use reversals cope when all the cards are upright? And should not the images be half up/half down as in playing cards - and I think the columbus deck? allibee

fairyhedgehog	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by allibee And should not the images be half up/half down as in playing cards - and I think the columbus deck? I believe someone in this forum was working on a deck like that. (Was it WillieHewes?) I would use a deck like that for reversals, because I wouldn't have to look at pictures upside down. Do some people mentally turn the pictures round when they are upside down? Or how do you manage?

Macavity	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog I would use a deck like that for reversals, because I wouldn't have to look at pictures upside down. A good case in point. Whereas I can plainly see reversals enriching the nuances of a Tarot reading, I always do feel a slight disturbance at the "non-symmetry" of the whole thing. I am well aware of my (slight, I add!) tendancy to obsess over pictures hanging a-slant on walls etc. ;) On a more sensible note. Since I am looking at "card-counting" right now, it's perhaps interesting to note that reversed cards can also be used to REVERSE the direction of counting and (presumably) have a significant effect on the cards CHOSEN for interpretation in some GD methods. I note that some readers, using such techniques allude to a process of almost "hedging ones bets". Simply they try BOTH ways :) Mac (just checking this keyboard is exactly in line with the screen :D)

Trogon	08 Dec 2002
Wow! Get busy for a couple of days and look what I missed!! When I first read Tarotphelia's post, I'm afraid I did see the humor in it... except when she talked about coming out from under the bed... OMG... what a horrible thought... I don't want to crawl out from under my bed... my dust bunnies might get lonely! As for the actual topic of the thread... I do use reversed cards, since this was the way I originally learned and have continued to do readings. I have a little ritual I do to make sure my deck is mixed and contains reversals... I call it "shuffling". Actually, I rotate 1/2 the deck each time I shuffle - some cards get reversed, some get put back upright. I'm afraid I'm guilty of some memorization (hmmm... does this make me "bad"... naw... I'm bad for so many other reasons... ;) ). I am getting much more intuitive in my reading lately, largely in part from things I've learned here on A.T. As for the actual reading of the reversed cards, I have no problem "seeing" the image when it's upside down and I try to intuit what needs to be said when the card shows up reversed. And yes, it usually (though not always) is a simple "opposite" of it's upright meaning. As for pink air... naw... having spent 8 years in the Navy and a good 18 years working in various aspects of law enforcement... the air around me is usally blue :D

Alex	08 Dec 2002
is that people can't see each other, and minor misanderstandings get a life of their own. No tone of voice either, so a statement as such can be taken to mean different things. IN real life situations even, the good advice when dealing with people in converstaions is, whenever needed, check the other's INTENTIONS. We often go downward spiral with misanderstandings because we assume, we know, what the other's intention is, upon saying, or doing something. I'd read your post right after you wrote it and I asked myself "what's up with her?". Days after I came back and saw it was a joke of some kind, you'd made. It's hard to know because we can't see the other. Sure, best to keep cool, but I'm guilty of not to sometimes. What really piss me off, really, is when people are downright offensive towards me and when I complain they say "but I meant it not!". Sometimes it's not clear. Sometimes, clear as water. The difference should be noted as well. Thanks for keeping cool. I can't handle one more tunderstorm on me in this forum My bests Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia Now, if I really wanted to, I could get out the verbal axe and use it on Alex right now. But, since she has not shown up at my door to threaten me in any way, and to my knowledge has hatched no plots against me, I am not going to do that.( Why WOULD I do that?) It is not worth an apology, an argument, an anything. Ordinarily, I would not mention it at all. I only bring it up here because it was too timely not to. Tarotphelia

Scorpion	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia Here is a prime example of what I am talking about. It is not worth an apology, an argument, an anything. Ordinarily, I would not mention it at all. I only bring it up here because it was too timely not to. Well, while it really isn't my intention to fan the flames here, I just can't resist commenting, Tarotphelia, that was a very long post for something that wasn't worth anything at all! ;-) I do have to disagree with you though on your "no apology" line - from the title of your original post (specifically the "hellfire" reference) I felt you were taking issue with some people and you clearly envisaged getting some reactions: although some of them seem to have surprised you. I would class your most recent post as quite defensive. I think if what one's written has upset anyone at all however inadvertently, it can't hurt to apologise. If one really didn't mean to hurt anyone whatsoever in the first place, what does one lose (apart from possibly a bit of pride) by apologising? It gives everyone a chance to stand down and reflect and then maybe some useful pointers can come out of this. Reference has been made to people feeling they have to leave Aecletic in the past and it would be tragic to see that happening again when it's all so unnecessary.

Silverlotus	08 Dec 2002
This has been a pretty interesting thread. I've enjoyed reading all the opinions on reversals. As I posted earlier, I do read reversals. I must say I have been tempted to try reading without them now. Maybe it will help me learn to read more intuitively. I have one deck that I haven't done any reading with yet. I think I will try using it without reversals for a little while to see how the deck reads. And then I will try with reversals and compare my results. It will be an interesting experiment. Something else I was thinking about while reading this, I remember in the book Tarot for Yourself, Ms. Greer doesn't use reversals in the first edition. But she has since released a second edition with reversed meanings and a new book about reversals. Unfortunately I don't have either, but I'm wondering if someone who does have them could tell me why she changed her mind and uses reversals now.

RedWood	08 Dec 2002
Experiment TIME!! YAYA.. Oh how bout...all who read reversals do upright and vice versa...we could even do them as an exchange... If this is not beating it to death..Find someone remotely neutral..ask a question..agree on what type of spread used..Someone from the reversals camp uses reversals..someone from the non-uses non...Then post see what comes up..I do know everyone as different interpretations..but it may still be interesting. Also..same as above..except someone who normally uses reverseals doesnt and vice versa..I know there are many factors involved that would make the reading different..such as style..intuitvenss..yada yada yada.. I still think this would be fun..and maybe get some who do or dont..to try it..just to see if they like it or not..or any difference at all!! What do you say!!????

Rhiannon	08 Dec 2002
I'd be perfectly happy to participate in an experiment. Can I wear a lab coat? Can I walk around and laugh in a creepy manner???? OOOH it'll be fun! Seriously though, I think this might be a good idea. It could take this issue to the next level. I'll use the cards with or without reversals, or I'll do the same reading using each. Whichever. Now, what is the question? Oh, and incidentally, I really don't think the issue needs to be decided on, or can be decided on for that matter. We've all always said to do what feels appropriate for you...I certainly wouldn't want that to change. It is sage advice. I just think this will be fun! R :)

Moongold	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Silverlotus Something else I was thinking about while reading this, I remember in the book Tarot for Yourself, Ms. Greer doesn't use reversals in the first edition. But she has since released a second edition with reversed meanings and a new book about reversals. Unfortunately I don't have either, but I'm wondering if someone who does have them could tell me why she changed her mind and uses reversals now. This is what Mary Greer says in her book Tarot Reversals: For a time I ignored reversals because I did not like the meanings I found in books. Then I found that the cards seem to work no matter what interpretations I used, as long as I specifically intended that the cards followed that system. It is the reader's decision whether or not to use reversals, as is the choice of what they are to signify. Many readers find that reversals add depth, nuance, tone and subordinate ideas to the upright meaning. When seeking unambiguous answers you can effectively double the possibilities. Furthermore they encourage us to see things from a different and more complex poin of view.................... In truth, reversals are ways to see through to "the other side". They allow us to go beyond the limits of the known. In offering further possibilities and insights that are not immediately apparent they provide an opportunity to reach beyond logic and lead us into the relam of potentials and underlying causes where everything is connected and magic happens..... . Greer gives interpretations and possibilities for reversed card meanings that draw on a number of sources and illustrate the possibilities. For example a Sun Rx may mean not that the influence of the Sun will be lessened but that the querent might need to look for her inner Sun. It's a useful book in that it gives upright as well as Rx meanings and also lists some great spreads using reversed cards specifically or together with upright cards. She emphasizes that reversals are purely a matter of choice for the reader. No judgement at all about this choice but she suggests that the decision to use reversals is often an evolving one. Moongold

aeonx	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Also I don't think that this thread is causing as much trouble as some of you seem to think it is. It is a storm in a tea-cup. And if someone leaves the forum because of this kind of incident, then I am really sorry for them - what do they do in Real Life when there are incidents? Walk out and slam the door, or try and find a solution? I gather that you among others are aiming at my last post. Well, I gave it a try to get people to start considering if it was really worth while keeping this debate going (not talking about reversals here). It could turn out ugly, and that was what I was trying to prevent - in some way. Earlier I would have been one of the first to choose sides and let the others 'have it', but I've discovered that details are not worth spending our valuable energy on. My post was just a mere reminder that there are other stuff to argue about instead of misunderstandings. I didn't want the discussion to further develop into an argument. Posts of the type that Tarotphelia wrote have in the past developed to be pretty nasty verbal fights that have caused forum members to leave. I decided it was better to try to reverse (haha) the situation now, not when things have already turned out ugly. :) A storm in a teacup can rapidly turn out to people throwing boiling water at each other. The Mistress of Vowels have spoken. Me create another idiom. Ye all follow what Me say. *giggle* ~aeonx~

fairyhedgehog	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity A good case in point. Whereas I can plainly see reversals enriching the nuances of a Tarot reading, I always do feel a slight disturbance at the "non-symmetry" of the whole thing. I am well aware of my (slight, I add!) tendancy to obsess over pictures hanging a-slant on walls etc. So that's what my problem is - I'm obsessive. I should have guessed :) Seriously, maybe it is about a love of visual symmetry ...

fairyhedgehog	08 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by RedWood Experiment TIME!! YAYA.. Oh how bout...all who read reversals do upright and vice versa...we could even do them as an exchange... Sounds fun Redwood. I found myself doing my own experiment tonight and using reversals (by mistake) and the roof didn't fall in ;) I think this discussion has at least opened me up to the idea a bit more. Maybe I'll use reversals with some decks not others for a while ...

jema	08 Dec 2002
ok, i am game. i'll try and use reversals for the rest of the year. i used them before but that was years ago and i didn't particulary like them then since i thought they limited my readings, but i'll try them again, perhaps i will change my views on them.

raeanne	08 Dec 2002
Hi all, Well, I don't know if I use reversals or not! I don't flip some of the cards around to specifically get reversals but I don't do anything specific to stop them from happening either. If a card shows up as a reversal, I might take that into account as being "ill-displayed". I guess you could call this reversed if you want to. But, a card doesn't have to be upside-down for me to read it as "ill-displayed". When I learn a card, I study the core meaning in all of its shades of meanings. The 6 of Cups is about giving. There can be both selfless giving and selfish giving. The act of giving can have positive and negative connotations. There are shades of meaning in the gray area as well. If this card shows up in a draw, it doesn't have to be upside-down for me to get the feeling that it has a negative connotation. I might use a reversed meaning even if the card is right side up depending on the cards around it and its position in a spread. I also have a few round decks that I use from time to time. I like these decks! The meaning of a card can show up at any angle! So, I guess I do use reversed meanings but I don't necessarily depend o