Justice & Strength cards switched?? Please Help!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kira	31 Dec 2002
I'm totally new at this, so please, bear with me... I was practicing giving someone a reading last night, and as I went through the cards that were dealt, then referred to my book for their meanings, I realized that the numbers on my Justice and Strength cards are reversed. In my book, it says that Strength is 8 and Justice is 11. But, on my cards, Strength is 11 and Justice is 8. The little booklet that came with my cards says this is right, but I'm not sure what's correct... when I searched for sites online, it shows what I find in the book. I've just started reading and now I'm even more confused. I'm so eager to learn... can anyone help me?? Thanks! ~Kira

wavebreaker	31 Dec 2002
There are different views on this, so you'll find both alternatives. The Rider-Waite decks and clones use Strength as 8 and Justice as 11, the Thoth deck and clones use Justice as 8 and Strength as 11. Which deck are you using?

Kira	31 Dec 2002
The deck I have is the Angel Tarot... here's a link for it: http://www.astroamerica.com/t-ang.html In the summary on the page, it says it's similar to Rider... but does it make a difference? And why were they switched on certain decks? *sigh* I feel like such a newbie :laugh: Thanks for all your help! ~Kira

wavebreaker	31 Dec 2002
That one looks more like a Marseille version. I haven't worked with a Marseilles deck (yet), so I'm afraid I can't tell you much more about it. Try the Historical & Iconographic Tarot forum, that's where the Marseille deck is being discussed.

Thirteen	31 Dec 2002
Here's the brief explaination on this: Waite decided to make Justice 11 mainly because Justice is Libra and Strength is Leo, and as Libra comes after Leo, it has to be a higher number. Also, I think he felt the 11 was 1 & 1, as if balancing on a scale, and so more justice-like than 8. There are equally good arguments for having Strength be 11 and Justice 8, but they really don't matter at this point. Thing is, the earliest decks weren't even numbered, and except when you're flipping through a book looking for help, you likely won't notice the numbering when laying out a spread. That's not to say that the numbering is irrelevant, as numberology does have something to do with how the creators of these decks decide to number the cards. There are, in fact, other decks that REALLY mix up the numbers for their own strange reasons. But it's nothing for a beginner to fret about. By the time it does mean something, you'll know enough to have your own opinion on whether Justice/Strength should be 8/11.

Trogon	01 Jan 2003
Howdy Kira... welcome to Aeclectic Tarot! As already mentioned, some decks have Strength - 8 / Justice - 11, and some vice-versa - welcome to Tarot... ;) Currently... the decks I own all have Strength - 8 / Justice - 11. This is mostly because these decks are the ones that appeal to me the most. I had tried learning with a Marseilles deck early on and it just didn't work out for me, but I think it was mostly because of the un-illustrated pip cards rather than the numbering of the Strength and Justice cards, though at the time this bothered me. But, I've been studying the Tarot for a while now and I'm not sure that the numbering of these 2 cards would bother me now. In the way of a suggestion, I would say that if you're having some real trouble wrapping your mind around this, that it's bothering you, then you might want to consider trying a different deck with the alternative numbering. You can try coming back to your Angel Tarot later on after you've had some experience with the other deck. Howver, if you're getting good results with your Angel Tarot deck... then continue using it. Hope this helps

lupo138	01 Jan 2003
as usual, there is nothing left to say, after Thirteen has explained her observations concerning a problem.... anyway: I agree very much that you do not have to worry about that. there is (as far as I do know) no "true" way of reading the cards. Knowing all the stuff around helps quite a lot - but in the end your cards develop their meaning for you and only you and so show you a "personal path"

Ophiel	01 Jan 2003
Greetings. You will find many discrepancies between all the decks in the world. The Waite deck was developed for use by magic group called the Golden Dawn, which started up in the 1880's, I believe. The Tarot is used for other purposes than readings also. One is in ceremonial magic, used in conjunction with the Tree of Life, called the Kabalah (with many spellings) and in fact you can look in our topic section for discussions on that, if you are so inclined. Anyway, each of the cards is assigned to either one of the seven 'planets' used in earlier forms of occult studies (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn...these seven can be used to classify/categorize EVERYTHING in the physical universe), or the twelve signs of the zodiac, or the four elements (Fire, Air, Water, Earth.) The Earth is not included in this, as it is supposedly represented by the actual physical world, the cards, or whatever end result of all these spiritual forces. Anyway, the cards classify as I'll list below, and you'll see that the astrological signs fall right in order when these two cards are switched, Justice and Strength. Justice is clearly a good card to represent Libra, and Strength for Leo. Magician - Mercury High Priestess - Moon Empress - Venus Emperor - Aries Pope - Taurus Lovers - Gemini Chariot - Cancer STRENGTH - Leo Hermit - Virgo Wheel - Jupiter JUSTICE - Libra Hanged Man - Water Death - Scorpio Temperance - Sagittarius Devil - Capricorn Tower - Mars Star - Aquarius Moon - Pisces Sun - Sun Judgment - Fire World - Saturn and Fool is assigned to Air in this system. Of course, none of this is set in stone, and there is debate about assignments, relevance, etc. but at least you can see WHY the order was changed. It makes sense when you know more about Cabalah/Kabalah/Qabalah. Hope this helps! Ophiel

Kira	02 Jan 2003
Thank you all for your help and input... tarotlady, thanks bunches for the link! I think I'll be spending some time in that forum reading and learning about my cards. ;) I've decided that instead of jumping right into the whole deck, and feeling a bit overwhelmed, I'm going to take one card per day. I'm still going to try a spread here and there, but once I know what each card means, and feel more of a connection with it, I know things will begin to flow a lot easier. I've also found the course that Joan Bunning offers, and so far that's been a big help also. If anyone has any suggestions for a beginner, I'm open to anything! :D ~Kira

zander770	02 Jan 2003
let us not fail to include the wands vs the swords (the "fire" and/or/ vs "air") "controversy" into the mix! ~700 :joke:

Ophiel	02 Jan 2003
The Joan Bunning course is supposed to be good, and is also available for free from Barnes and Noble with their online courses program. I bet a new semester (six weeks?) is starting this or next week, if you are interested. There is a live moderator (better that way) who responds to questions posted. Here is a link to the B&N offer: http://www.barnesandnobleuniversity.com/index.asp?nhid=bn&userid=2VCF608DUH

MystiqueMoonlight	02 Jan 2003
In fact the Waite cards were not actually developed for the use of the Golden Dawn in 1880. The original Golden Dawn advocated that each of it's members create their own decks and this would lead them on their development of the teachings of the Tarot. The actual deck used by the original Golden Dawn was somewhat different and Waite believed that he could "improve" on it and so created the deck which we are all familiar with. It was not used exclusively by the original Golden Dawn at all. :)

Ophiel	03 Jan 2003
Regarding the GD's own cards, they were based on an article called "The Tarot Trumps" By G.H. Soror, Q.L. This gave pithy descriptions of what the card's imagery. For instance, here is the text for THE FOOL: "0. THE FOOLISH MAN This card as usually presented shows a man in motley striding along, heedless of the dog which tears his garments and threatens to attack him. In this is seen only the lower aspect of the card, giving no hint to the Divine Folly of which St. Paul speaks. But in the Order pack, an effort is made to reveal the deeper meaning. A naked child stands beneath a rose-tree bearing yellow roses – the golden Rose of Joy as well as the Rose of Silence. While reaching up to the Roses, he yet holds in leash a gray wolf, worldly wisdom held in check by perfect innocence. The colors are pale yellow, pale blue, greenish yellow – suggestive of the early dawn of a spring day." Robert Wang created the Golden Dawn Tarot from these descriptions (note the difference in design from his FOOL and LOVERS!) as did the Circeros in The Golden Dawn Magical Tarot Deck. Unfortunately, none of the original GD handmade decks seem to have survived intact. Have any of the single cards surfaced?

Baneemy	07 Jan 2003
Waite's system is based on the Hebrew alphabet (Fool = Aleph, Magician = Beth, etc.). The Kabbalistic text "Sepher Yetzirah" classifies the letters in three groups: 3 mothers (Aleph, Mem, Shin), 7 doubles (Beth, Gimel, Daleth, Kaph, Pe, Resh, Tau), and 12 singles (the rest of them). The singles correspond to the signs of the zodiac, the doubles to the seven "planets," and the mothers to three of the four elements. The interface between the trumps and the Hebrew alphabet is intriguingly close but far from perfect, so in his attempt to harmonize Tarot and Kabbalah, Waite ended up compromising both systems. He swapped Strength and Justice (creating an order with no historical precedent), and he assigned all seven of the doubles to the "wrong" planets from a Kabbalistic point of view. I find his system clumsy, but a lot of people like it. -Baneemy

ihcoyc	07 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kira The deck I have is the Angel Tarot... here's a link for it: http://www.astroamerica.com/t-ang.html The Angel deck is a nice deck, actually. It's a somewhat softer looking Japanese deck, but it's based on the Tarot de Marseille in the Courts and Trumps, while having easier to read, Spanish style pip cards. Also, each card bears a French suit symbol of the corresponding suit. But no, it isn't going to follow the Rider Waite Smith innovation which switches the places of Strength and Justice from where they had been the preceding four hundred years.

lupo138	08 Jan 2003
Welcome Baneeme! The question to me is rather: Why did the Golden Dawn place the Fool on the first path ? With regard to three "mothers" it would have been more appropriate to connect the first three paths with I Magician II High Priestess III Empress, than with I Fool II Magician III Empress, wouldn´t it ? The Fool could have been place on the path towards Malkuth, with makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately one wouldn´t know where to put the World/Universe then ;)

Diana	08 Jan 2003
Hmmm. The question to me is, why did the Golden Dawn have to mess about with the Tarot in the first place? Okay, it served their purposes. It's a free world, after all, and Tarot is not copyrighted. So as far as that goes, I have no problems with it. I mean, if the Orange Temple of the Masters and Mistresses of Doom and Glory decide to take a Tarot deck and re-design it to fit into their rituals, that's also okay. If someone wants to use a Tarot deck for wallpaper, then that's quite in order as well. Hell, I grew up in a country where censorship and lack of freedom was next to godliness, so I hate it when people don't feel free. So perhaps my original question is not quite what I meant. I think what I'm trying to get across here, very clumsily, is that people should be aware, when they are using a deck, where it comes from. If they want to use a deck with Golden Dawn stuff and magic (whatever the spelling you use), they should not just use it like a sheep following the shepherd, but see if they agree with the Golden Dawn stuff. If Justice is 11 and Strength 8, do we just say "Oh well, Waite must have known what he was talking about", or do we go and study why and how and wherefore, and then reach our own conclusions. Some days, I really express myself badly. Have I at least got the gist of what I'm trying to say across? Or should I delete my post and start all over again? lupo138: Oh why did you have to mention the Fool? *Diana closes her mouth with strong sticky plaster*. Oh well, everyone knows my opinion about the Fool, so I won't go into that all over again. *Diana adds a gag around the sticky plaster, just in case.* :D

allibee	08 Jan 2003
My take on this is: Does it really matter? As long as it is clear you are reading/interpreting strength or justice ... then isn't that all that matters? Yes, of couse there are people/decks that have some historical significance. But for the beginner who wants to read and understand, I don't think it really matters as long as you know the title/image of the card you're dealing with. Example: Years ago when I got my very first deck - my trusty companion The Prediction deck - I felt the accompanying book by Sacha Fenton made the meanings trivial/superficial, very Madam Arcarti, fortune teller stuff and so I nearly put away my cards forever. Sometime down the path of my life I came across a book by Juliet Sharman - Burke which used the RW deck to accompany it's text, but the meanings held much truer for me and what I felt in my heart was right. Therefore it really didn't matter that the pictures were different to what my deck portrayed. I'd never taken any notice of the numbering until a few weeks ago actually. It's never made any difference to me and I'd have to look up what the numbers are for most majors after 3 and before 21 :) as I personally feel the numbering is insignificant in comparision to the import of the meaning in relation to a question asked. allibee

Diana	08 Jan 2003
allibee: If one looks at pictures, then there's no need for any numbering at all. But then why use Tarot? Why not use an oracle? Or an art-book that one opens at random? Meanings? Meanings are based on the numbers. A two of something bases its meaning on the Two. Along with the Element. The same thing for all the cards. An Eight Justice is not the same as an Eight Strength. If one uses the numbers for numerological purposes, then the numbering is of vital importance. If you have an 8 or an 11, it can change the whole interpretation of a reading. Tarot has 78 cards. 22 Majors. 56 Minors. These numbers in themselves are not innocent. The other numbers are not innocent either. Tarot and numbers are inseperable. Which is why, when one puts a zero on....... *Diana sticks the sticky plaster back on her mouth.* :D

allibee	08 Jan 2003
hi Diana, and her attractive sticky plaster *LOL* "Meanings? Meanings are based on the numbers. A two of something bases its meaning on the Two. Along with the Element. The same thing for all the cards. An Eight Justice is not the same as an Eight Strength" We all have different meanings for the cards - some of them or all of them - ranging from subtleties to blatant oppositions. By the same token we can all have different feelings about say: the two's or the eights or the .... I recently added some new notes in my journal about the eights and the two's for example. These are my personal observations: Two's reflect the opposition or integration of Mirror Images - no pun intended;) Cups - two emotions Wands - two ideas Swords - two passions/ideals Coins - two dispersals of energy Eights reflect changes Cups - realisation change is needed Wands - sudden opportunity for change Swords - Afraid of change Coins - Working to achieve change. I would be surprised if 'the books' or tarot experts saw it the same as me as I always seem to be at odds, but it works for me;) allibee

Major Tom	08 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Tarot has 78 cards. 22 Majors. 56 Minors. These numbers in themselves are not innocent. The other numbers are not innocent either. Tarot and numbers are inseperable. Which is why, when one puts a zero on....... *Diana sticks the sticky plaster back on her mouth.* :D Numbers are important, agreed. I look at it like this: Tarot has 78 cards: 22 Majors, 16 Courts and 40 pips. Perhaps it's simply a level of detail - is it really all that important? I mean, come on Diana, zero is nothing really. LOL :laugh: I think the question where to put Strength and Justice is an important one - but only important in context of the individual. It's important for the individual to make an informed choice and apply the choice consistently. This is not to say the individual can't choose to swap back and forth if desired. }) At the end of the day, tarot will work whichever way the individual decides to see it. Strength and Justice, 8 or 11, make your choice and get on with it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

allibee	08 Jan 2003
hehe Major Tom I nearly missed your post as we posted at the same time. That is sort of what I was trying to say, as long as it works for the individual. allibee

Diana	08 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom I mean, come on Diana, zero is nothing really. LOL :laugh: Poor little Fool. Don't listen to Major Tom. You are NOT a zero, you are NOT a nothing. I love you, I swear. Wipe your tears from your eyes. Major Tom will give you some chips. I'm sure he didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Of course Tarot will always work for the individual. You can assign anything you like to any card and it'll work. You can even change your mind every day, and it will work. I don't care whether people put a number 1 on the World, and a 21 on the Magician. They can do what they like. But I do hope they KNOW why they're doing it. And that is my point. Not behave like a sheep, but as an informed human being. One can also read toothpicks. Honest - they are marvellous. I hope you are all doing your daily toothpick reading. But toothpicks are not Tarot. Oracles are not Tarot. Tarot has 78 cards - 22 Majors and 56 Minors. Hey!! Who removed my sticky plaster! The person who did that knew I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut. Stand up and be counted (what number do you want?).

lupo138	08 Jan 2003
numbers are not really important for me to read the cards. I estimate the interpretations that Dion Fortune gives in the "Mystical Qabalah" and I see all the reference to the GD stuff that is so´often discussed here. Anyway: For reading the cards, I don´t really need it. I just take it into consideration when it comes to seeing the cards as symbols of personal development or stuff like that. But in a reading it is the meaning the cards give to you - not the numbers. (right, the numbers are part of the cards....)

Diana	08 Jan 2003
I can understand that numbers aren't important for some people when it comes to reading and grasping the meanings. But the meanings of the cards are based in part on numbers. The people who "invented" Tarot, developed it, modified it and did what ever they did to it, had to base themselves on something in order to establish the meanings that have now become so much part of our lives that they are almost automatic. Okay, then I step back a little from what I said. One doesn't need to understand the numbers (although I still shake my head and wonder how one can approach Tarot without a basic understanding of numbers, but perhaps I'm just being dense here - that has known to occur), but isn't it worthwhile understanding at least WHERE the meanings originated? Or is it just micro-wave and remote-control Tarot again? Tarot in Ten Minutes? (Ten?? Why Ten?? Why not 9??) What does everyone think? Is there a difference between reading Tarot cards, and reading Tarot? Do you know in French we have three different words for describing what in English is known only as a Tarot card?

Macavity	08 Jan 2003
Hmmm Not enough words for Tarot eh, Diane? As Charles de Gaulle once groused "How can you be expected to govern a nation that has 246 kinds of cheese?" ;) BSF, Had the Marseille followed the later order, I suspect that the revisionists would have found some grounds for changing it back again - or making some other change? Perhaps it's the nature of the beast? (sic) :D I think where I find myself at odds with some of this is where the DATA is massaged to fit THEORY We than get a whole new version of "ancient" traditions and (waa!) bizarre versions of the names of my beloved Egyptian panthon :) But I concede that were it NOT for these "revivals", it may well be that these traditions would have remained dead, even within their own cultural settings. I must also admit my recent serious interest in ancient history and language was only awoken by the books of "heretics" such as Graham Hancock and Maurice Cotterell. Oh the shame of it... But Me? I like my STANDARDS! I just LIKE it when someone else is looking at the same card combination and thinking approximately the same thing. I'm hoping to be able to learn the main reading styles of the Thoth, Waite and Marseille. In the process, I'm trying to find out what is the MOST traditional way of doing these - Maybe there isn't ONE, but I keep trying! I'm for economy of effort. I believe a great deal of human times is spent in reinventing the wheel otherwise? :) Hmm, Now ABOUT that association of the Chariot with Cancer... }) Macavity the history cat

Baneemy	08 Jan 2003
Diana, do you prefer to leave the Fool unnumbered (as in most historical decks), or do you number it 22 (as in a few historical decks), or what? Numbering the Fool 0 certainly creates problems for the Golden Dawn system; it wrecks the numerology of the Hebrew alphabet, where Aleph=1 (not 0!), Beth=2, Gimel=3, etc. The GD system, by assigning Aleph to the Fool, Beth to the Magician, etc., creates a major disconnect between the numbers on the cards and the numbers that go with the Hebrew letters. I'm not so sure that the numbers were fundamental to the original meanings of the cards. In the earliest extant decks the trumps are not numbered at all, and there is considerable variation in numbering in historical decks. Should Justice be 8 or 11? Well, in many old Italian decks it's 20! There are a few constants, like Death = 13, but there's room for a lot of variation within the constraints of the tradition. The Marseilles sequence is not the Only True Numbering System, nor is it even the earliest; it's just one of many equally viable alternatives. -Baneemy

lupo138	09 Jan 2003
dear Diana, could you please explain to me the difference between reading Tarot and reading Tarot cards ? (and I am very curious - what would the three words for Tarot be in French ?) Looking forward to your reply L.

Diana	09 Jan 2003
Baneemy: welcome to the forums! I hope you'll join us also on the Historical and Iconographical forum. In fact, I invite everyone to join us there! :) About my personal usage of the numbering of the Fool: let's say that I rank it as 22, but I give it a value zero. Which is not the same as giving it the number zero. I'm not surprised sometimes that people argue so much about this numbering. In French, this arcanum is often called "Le Mat", which could mean a variety of things (not everyone agrees on the etymology), but if one does word-playing with this name, "Mat" reminds us of the Greek "Mathe", which as far as I can figure out, means "knowledge", and which is the origin of the word Mathematics. Although I do think that the Fool is not concerned with Mathematics. It's just part of his game that he plays with us. What a trickster! I am a part of the minority on Aeclectic, with my refusal to give a number to this guy. By giving him a number, I give him some rationality. He is irrational. The Fool is free (far freer than the Magician/Bateleur). lupo138: (BTW, is the "8" at the end of your name a Justice or a Strength ;) ), I was hoping you would answer my question! It is truly a personal interrogation and I would be really interested to hear other peoples' opinions. To tell you the truth, I have reached no conclusion on this, firstly because there is probably no conclusion to be reached (as with most things concerning Tarot), and secondly, because I would have loved to get other people's input before even attempting to make some kind of picture out of my question. But seeing as you asked, I'll give you my first impression concerning my question. (When I posted it, it was the first time that it had crossed my mind, so my impressions are very new.) My instinct tells me that there is a difference between reading Tarot cards and reading Tarot. Perhaps it's because I have been unusually biased by the three French words. There is the word "carte", which designates purely the pieces of cardboard with pictures printed on them. Then there is the word "lame" which is absolutely untranslatable in English unfortunately. It is hard to even explain what it means. It's the "secret" that the pictures on the cards reveal to us. And then we have the word "arcane" which is also used in English when one talks of Tarot, but I was very surprised to see how rarely it is used. In French we talk about the arcana with great reverence, as if they were sacred. They go even further than just the secret. They are the mystery that the cards invite us to go into. When you enter the mystery, you must be prepared to get lost, you need to give up all your preconceived ideas, your desires, your fears and your will. If you do that, you can become the initiate. Because Tarot is the journey of initiation, beginnning with the Magician/Bateleur. (By the way, the word Bateleur does not translate as Magician. I use them here together just so that people know which card I'm talking about.) So yes, presently I think that reading Tarot and reading Tarot cards are not the same thing. I love doing them both. I read Tarot cards (lames) in order to understand my daily life better, and a bit of fortune telling for light entertainment. But I read Tarot in order to try and strive towards that higher light, that angel voice that pulls me up and tells me that there is something more to life than just what we see, that it is all an illusion. It is probably that crazy Mat who is whispering constantly in my ear who makes me want to read Tarot. Because he knows, you see.

Ophiel	09 Jan 2003
Regarding the lack of importance Lupo138 assigns to the numbers inherent in the cards, magician Lon DuQuette wrote in his book, "The Chicken Qabalah," that the cards can sometimes provide detailed information by taking such factors as card numbers into account. He also suggests that the astrological assignments for the cards (Aries = Emperor, Taurus = Hierophant, etc., using the Golden Dawn correspondences) could give valuable information about such things as, say parts of the body (Taurus is assigned to the throat, Gemini to the lungs, etc.). the decans in which each card is assigned for time frames, etc. and many other issues can offer valuable information from the cards. OF course, it is not so much that this information is 'fixed' in the cards as our deeper understanding of the correspondences gives our subconscious mind new tools to communicate with. Regarding THE FOOL, I want to point out that this symbol, the fool, was quite different during the time the cards were first used, and that the mythology of the time was rich in associations with the Fool, who was sometimes considered an inititate of higher knowledge. The Feast of the Fool was a quite significant festival during the medieval times, if anyone is familiar with such matters. You can learn more from researching this icon, the fool, in that period's history and literature. Fulcanelli had some interesting discussion about the fool in his remarkable book, "The Mystery of the Cathedrals." Also, "The Zelator: The Secret Journals of Mark Hedsel" (Weiser/Redwheel, ISBN: 1578631696) has an extensive chapter, the introduction to the book, about the fool's symbology. Quite fascinating indeed!

juice	09 Jan 2003
Let me have a go at unimportance. I may say unimportant but think of it more as a grade of importance. For instance, I pick one interpretation of symbol associations: element, planet, gem, hexagram, zodiac, rune, color, map direction, Hebrew letter, season, day of the year, tree, plant, animal, magickal secret letter, roman numeral, dog, cat, horse, toy, personality, ad noseum... and I stick to that set in lieu of all other sets of interpretations. I would be throwing away a lot of info on Tarot. There are several numbering systems. There are more than one set of meanings to each of the numbers. My displeasure with voyager and probably therefor thoth/rohrig is putting anger on the 4 of swords. Anger is appearantly chosen because of the "4"ness aspect of mentality/swords. I'm sorry but the closest I can come to anger being a "4" is the disappointment and disolving delusionment of 4 of cups. I see "4" as the "awww" after "3". 4 after the 3 of cups is the come down from the party. 4 after the 3 fo pentacles is the "aw" mine> 4 after the 3 of wands is "aw" of accomplishment and joy. 4 after the 3 of swords is rest and release. ( anger being the first step to mental recovery? nahh) Yes numbers are important in that assigning them other values can be extremely useful. BUT every culture assigns different meanings to its numbers or other symbols. In that sense the number itself is not important. We could have been argueing over/discussing the color sequence of the cards/keys instead of the number sequence.

Jewel	09 Jan 2003
Hi Kira ... I am sure you are totally overwhelmed now that you have been peppered with astrology, qabalah and numerology :) ... I hope all is well with you and your Angel deck. The historical forum will be a great place for you to learn and I encourage you to ask JMD anything you need to ask on those boards. I consider him our resident Marseille deck expert, and since your deck is based on that one he should be able to refer you to other sources (books, web-sites, etc) that will compliment your learning. Good luck on your tarot journey!

Kira	09 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel Hi Kira ... I am sure you are totally overwhelmed now that you have been peppered with astrology, qabalah and numerology :) ... I hope all is well with you and your Angel deck. Hello Jewel, and everyone else who has replied. WOW! I never thought I'd get so much info just from one question. But now I know I have so much more to learn about the Tarot. It is a bit overwhelming, but I'm just going to try to take everything a little at a time. The main reason I asked the question was because I wasn't sure if the order of the Strength/Justice cards in the deck would affect a reading. Since they are numbered, I figured that's the order they should be in before shuffling. I've been keeping the cards as Justice-8, Strenght-11.. and so far things seem to be going well. :) I'll definitely have to check out the historical forum to learn more about the Marseille deck. So much for my 'innocent' little question. :P ~Kira

The Justice & Strength cards switched?? Please Help! thread was originally posted on 31 Dec 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.