Minor Magicians...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

oldsoul	28 Dec 2002
hi all... i read in my book (tarot for dummies) that the people in the minor arcana are all extensions of the magician. how does that work??? the only link between them that i can see is that on the magicians table he has all the suits/tools of the minor arcana. am i not looking deep enough??? oldsoul

HudsonGray	28 Dec 2002
I'm not sure I'd agree with the statement. I CAN see the Fool turning into the Magician & making use of all the minors, BUT that limits the journey, leaving him stuck only at the first step (the Magician that is). If it doesn't make sense to you & the book doesn't explain it further, there's really no reason to lock yourself into this train of thought.

Thirteen	29 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by oldsoul hi all... i read in my book (tarot for dummies) that the people in the minor arcana are all extensions of the magician. So much for the book being for Dummies. Frankly it makes no sense to me. The Magician is a very powerful card, but to say that ALL the people in the minors are extentions of him...I can't figure out how to make that work. Are you sure you mean the people in the "minor" arcana, not the "major" arcana? It's often felt that the people in the Majors are each the Fool, developing along his journey (or people the Fool meets along his journey). But the minors have their own separate stories--each suit its own tale, only tangentially related to the majors. If you DID mean the minors, then I'm really confused, because I can't figure out how this makes tarot reading any easier. And that IS the point of the book, right? Tarot made easy? Personally, the only minors I've ever connected to the Magician are the 4 aces--which makes sense if you think of the aces as the symbols rising up off the Magician's table.

temperlyne	29 Dec 2002
I can see the Aces as the tools of the magician. He needs to use/control the suits/elements in order to create. But I do not see how the people in the minor arcana would be extensions of the magician... that would make him all powerfull, not just a god, but God, the everything. In my opinion he is just a powerful individual who manages to control powers and even manipulate reality a bit. But if he were to be everything, whats the use of all the other cards? Aren't the tarot cards supposed to depict all different aspects of reality? Of the Thruth? Of life? I really find it hard to see what your book could mean by it and would love to hear an explanation of someone wise....

Major Tom	29 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by oldsoul i read in my book (tarot for dummies) that the people in the minor arcana are all extensions of the magician. I must admit I'm a bit mystified by this so I'm reaching for a possible explaination: The Magician is concerned with manifesting physical objects from the ether (or astral or spiritual or insert your own word.) The minors usually depict things in the physical world - as opposed to - the majors which depict things 'above' the physical. Perhaps the people in the minors are characters the Magician has manifested?

Diana	29 Dec 2002
Very unusual interpretation of the Courts. If you read anything else in the book which gives you some clues, please let us know, as we all seem a little surprised here. Now, if we accept that this is not an editing mistake in the book which was not noticed at the time of printing, then how could one fit these together? In one of my Tarot books, it is written (translated from the French): "The Magician is Arcanum no. I. It is unique although it carries within it all the other arcana (the All)." So if the Magician carries within him all the possible incarnations of a human being, then of course he would also carry within himself all the Court cards, which represent the different aspects of people - men, women, adolescents and children. In the concept of Unity (no. 1), is also the concept of the Whole, as I noted already above (yes, I know I'm repeating myself ;) ). Therefore there is in that Unity the masculine and the feminine also. King and/or Queen. The four elements of the Magician also give us a clue here, I think. He possesses them all (doesn't have to go hunting), and therefore is able to use them for Action (they needn't stay in the realm of thoughts only), and the Courts are pretty active cards - they permit us to really get up and go. Oh well, oldsoul, just shows that with Tarot, anything is possible! :)

oldsoul	29 Dec 2002
i'll quote what the book says on page 106 just before going into details about the minor arcana (so i don't think it can be a typo)... tip - all the people in the minor arcana are extensions of the magician, a symbol of the human personality. does that help at all??? oldsoul

HudsonGray	29 Dec 2002
Not really. We shouldn't have to stretch so hard to make a connection on this, I think you can discount the statement & go on with your learning. The Fool's journey goes through the entire Major Arcana, it seems silly to limit the possibilities so much for no reason. The courts & minors flesh things out, but why limit them to only the Magician & not any of the other majors? Doesn't make sense. Guess take the book with a grain of salt & use what seems to make sense, leave the rest behind for now. (It's got us stumped!).

Diana	29 Dec 2002
Of course, oldsoul, there are those (for example yours truly) who do not subscribe to the Fool's Journey, and consider it to be the Magician's Journey. In fact, the "older" traditions of Tarot, like the French tradition, subscribe mostly to the Magician's Journey. (And they knew a lot about Tarot - they more or less invented the whole thing, or at least developed it sufficiently for it to become an integral part of European culture.) But I agree with HudsonGray, don't limit yourself to what the book said. However, it is very interesting what you posted and I will keep this post of yours in my mind and see if the trail leads somewhere or to a dead-end. If even it leads to a dead-end, I'm sure I'll see some pretty things along the way.

Major Tom	30 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by oldsoul tip - all the people in the minor arcana are extensions of the magician, a symbol of the human personality. The magician as a symbol of the human personality makes sense to me following the Magician's Journey aspect. Humans make things happen on the physical plane. The minors are about things on the physical plane. Manifestations? Extensions? Aspects? Certainly I can see how if the Magician journeys through the majors - he also journeys through the minors. }) Somehow this reminds me of Terry Prachett's small gods retirement home - Dunmanifestin' :laugh:

oldsoul	05 Jan 2003
hi all... i emailed the author and she told me to read page 77 again so here goes... The magicians hand gestures communicate the ancient hermetic axiom, “as above, so below; as below, so above.” Each human personality or ego is a vehicle, medium, or channel through which the one divine spirit manifests itself. The magician is your conscious awareness of yourself as an individual. His wand indicates the parts that intention and attention serve in bringing your desires into form. The four tools on his table symbolize the four-fold process of creation: inspiration (wand), imagination (cup), discrimination (sword), and manifestation (pentacle). i'm still confused... does this help any of you??? oldsoul

Thirteen	05 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by oldsoul hi all... i emailed the author and she told me to read page 77 again so here goes... The magicians hand gestures communicate the ancient hermetic axiom, “as above, so below; as below, so above.” Each human personality or ego is a vehicle, medium, or channel through which the one divine spirit manifests itself. The magician is your conscious awareness of yourself as an individual. His wand indicates the parts that intention and attention serve in bringing your desires into form. The four tools on his table symbolize the four-fold process of creation: inspiration (wand), imagination (cup), discrimination (sword), and manifestation (pentacle). i'm still confused... does this help any of you??? :P I THINK I understand. I'll walk you through it--but I gotta say, there's something VERY wrong if you have to be walked through a book for "dummies"! I mean, look at the language, "hermetic axiom"! This book shouldn't require you to drag out the dictionary! What WERE they thinking? And I'll add this--I don't know if I agree with what I think the logic is here. That is, if I'm right. Here goes: "Each...ego is a vehicle..through which the...divine spirit manifests"--meaning, we're all some aspect of the divine. Okay. So, for every character in the minor to be some aspect of the magician, he has to be the emblem of the "divine" in the tarot--i.e., GOD in tarot form. How could this be? He is "your conscious awareness of yourself as an individual." Hm. So the Magician stands for that part of me which knows I'm me and not...um, not me? What this might be saying is that self-awareness is an aspect of divinity. The magician is self-aware, and this gives him godlike powers. Namely, the power to make manifest his desires. "His wand indicates the parts that intention and attention serve in bringing your desires into form." I'm sorry. I'm not meaning to be rude here, but could the author have said it in a way any more likely to confuse a beginner? The author means, he's that part of you which CREATES, gives DESIRES a form, makes them manifest. And THIS means that the Magician is, in a way, GOD. Because that is what God is all about. God desires a world, and a world is created. God desires light and there is light. What God desires, he/she gives form to. YOU, when you are the Magician, are being "God" in that you are giving form to your desires. Making something imaginary REAL with the help of your tools (wand/cup/sword/pentacle--inspiration, imagination, descrimation and manifestation. By the way, while not incorrect, these designations are also confusing to a beginner. I think you should drop-kick this book!). So, the Magician is DIVINE. And the DIVINE manifests itself in everyone. So the Magician is in everyone of those characters in the minors. They each have an individual consciousness (like the magician [god]) and they are each trying to make real their desires with whatever tools they have to hand (like the magician [god]). The magician is the above (divine) and they are the below (us). As above (what the magican does), so below, (what they do). And that is the ONLY way I can make this convoluted mess work. It's not a bad message--but I think it's badly expressed, and frankly, useless to a beginner.

oldsoul	06 Jan 2003
i have to agree with you Thirteen... if this has had you, Diana, Major Tom, HudsonGray, etc confused then it's not surprising that it's had me, a beginner, going round in circles!!! and i'm no dummy! :) thank you for your explanation... i understand as much as i think i'm going too! may i forward it to the author for her thoughts and response? oldsoul

Diana	06 Jan 2003
oldsoul: Why, thank you so much for telling us what the author had to say on Page 77! And I absolutely love what is said. It makes a lot of sense to me. The title of the book sounds pretty dumb, but if there are more pearls like this one, it sounds to me like a very intelligent book. Please forward my positive comments too!! :)

Thirteen	06 Jan 2003
Diana: I will agree with you that this is a "pearl of wisdom"--but I'm not sure if that's enough to send a positive message to this author. The whole point of the book, as evidenced in the title, is to make tarot reading easy. And my sympathy here is with the rank beginner trying to understand this passage. It's all too easy to be overwhelmed and discouraged by the tarot. Complex, esoteric, deeply philosophial explainations like the one on the Magician--especially as written--can only make them feel stupid. As, evidently, Oldsoul did. Tarot for dummies indeed. And that's not right. Quote: Originally posted by oldsoul may i forward it to the author for her thoughts and response? As I suspect her intent was good and, as Diana pointed out, the message meant to be positive and insightful; so I'd rather you didn't send her my more insulting and blunt comments. However, you can tell the author that while her message was fine, I don't believe there is anyway for a beginner (or dummy) to easily understand it. Especially given the way it was written. And you can remind her, emphatically, that you bought this book because you thought it would make learning the tarot easy. And if you have to get help, have to ask HER and OTHERS what passages in the book mean, then it's making the tarot difficult and confusing, not easy. And thus, gives lie to the book's title and advertizing.

HudsonGray	06 Jan 2003
I don't mind if you send her my comments either. But a 'book for dummies' should be pretty up front about what it says & not confuse the brand new reader. Clear, concise info--not total confusion--is the key. It should have been stepped down a couple of notches & written out in plain language. We all had trouble with it, which says a lot.

Major Tom	07 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana oldsoul: Why, thank you so much for telling us what the author had to say on Page 77! I must echo this. If we'd seen this before trying to answer the question - it would not have been that difficult. As it was, I felt pretty close to what the author was saying. She expressed it much better than I could. }) 'As above, so below' gives it all away. So I suppose you could classify the majors as 'above', the minors 'below'. The minors appearing through the agency of the magician using his tools. Mercury indeed! :)

The Minor Magicians... thread was originally posted on 28 Dec 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.