The Chariot as Cancer (Waite-Smith)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Ophiel	10 Dec 2002
Most of you know that THE CHARIOT is linked with the astrological sign of Cancer. In all the years, even decades of shuffling thru the cards (the Waite deck), I just never quite made that connection with this card. Perhaps I have been too spoiled by sun sign astrology and have lost touch with the more esoteric meanings of Cancer. I don't mean to be crabby, but if you have a really strong Cancerian sense from this card, would you please post what about it gives you that sense? I know some of the other decks besides the Waite have more Cancerian imagery, but because I work with the Waite-Smith deck so much, I'd prefer if you could confine your reactions to this one particular card. As a whole, I like the Waite-Smith deck, as do so many writers. I think it still has enough of the occult properties present to make it a useful card, the way I use them. Thanks -- OM

JC	10 Dec 2002
Hey. I don't use the same astrological associations as everybody else, either, and I've never gotten a very good Cancer vibe from the Chariot. Actually, I tend to think of it as more Sagittarian, and Temperance as Cancer's equivalent. I feel that way because of the imagery on the cards - the Chariot is moving forward (Sag. corresponds to the 9th house - The House of Long Journeys Over Water, in archaic astrology) while the archangel on Temperance is standing still (Cancer's 4th house rules the home, which is pretty stationary to me.) Also, the Chariot feels like a fire card to me, while Temperance seems more more watery. Having said that, there is a strong case to be made for the traditional associations based on the fact that Cancer is fixed and Sagittarius is mutable. Fixed signs are the initiators, while mutable ones balance things out and go with the flow. This is a good "follow your intuition" topic. Thank you for posting this, because I'm starting to see the associations even more as guideposts instead of routes. It also reminds me of a thread in another forum concerning idea of studying Qabbalah and tarot at the same time; this would strike me as slightly problematic in that the majors are not in order according to their Hebrew letters.

allibee	10 Dec 2002
OK, the most obvious association is the heavy armour the charioteer wears, like us good 'ol crabs that have very tough shells on the outside, to keep our poor extremely sensative selves out of harms way. This is the first esoteric reference, that of balance of the outer and inner manifestations: as above, so below; as within, so without. The balance of empowerment through being alternately active and passive. Duality. Cancer is the cardinal sign of water. The tide comes in, the tide flows out. Push - Pull. Much as the horses or sphinxes - one black, one white - both have to be balanced by the strength of will of the charioteer, otherwise the vehicle will crash. Also his chariot and attire are covered with divine, alchemical and astrological symbols which speak of the strong spiritual nature of his quest. The two crescents on his shoulders signify the Moon, his Ruler. (I don't know why, but my inner voice keeps nagging me that he is the Magician on a mission?!*) Thats about all I can think of at the mo. allibee

JC	11 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by allibee I don't know why, but my inner voice keeps nagging me that he is the Magician on a mission?!* allibee I hadn't thought of that, but it does resonate now that you mention it. Nice consonance, too. Of course, the Magician is the Fool on a mission as well . . .

mrsjvan	11 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by JC I feel that way because of the imagery on the cards - the Chariot is moving forward (Sag. corresponds to the 9th house - The House of Long Journeys Over Water, in archaic astrology) while the archangel on Temperance is standing still (Cancer's 4th house rules the home, which is pretty stationary to me.) I don't want to be contradictory but most decks tend not to show the chariot in motion. For example if you look at the RW deck both sphinxes are stationary and the charioteer appears to be set in his place. I also notice that a river runs behind the chariot and the chariot appears as if it could have emerged directly from the water. I agree with Alibee's comments also. especially the aspect of the armour and the moon. And he also carries a wand like the magician. Anyway that's my two cents worth for what it's worth. mrsjvan

allibee	11 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by mrsjvan I don't want to be contradictory but most decks tend not to show the chariot in motion. For example if you look at the RW deck both sphinxes are stationary and the charioteer appears to be set in his place. Maybe JC just means facing forward, rather than disappearing into the distance. Nothing worse than the view of the business end of a sphinx, which is probably why you never get to see one *LOL* Altho I took on board the RW imagery Ophiel was originally interested in, I must say my beautiful, wonderful, ultra gorgeous imagery on my Prediction Deck shows the Chariot hurtling full tilt towards me through mountainous terrain, along a narrow, rocky path with a precipice just a wrong hoof step away. (and you guys wonder why my readings are so supercharged ;)) allibee

mrsjvan	11 Dec 2002
I stand corrected. :) Yours sounds more fun than mine alibee! :) mrsjvan

Kitty	11 Dec 2002
Interesting thread.... I'm a cancerian through and through and I have always found that I do not identify with the Chariot, I've always felt the Moon to be more cancerian. Cancer - water sign - the moon controls the tides in the ocean - I certainly feel the effects of the moon cycle. But Alibee is certainly right about the armour/shell like a crab, us cancerians like to keep our shell The association is not, at first clear, but the armour, the duality of the card - relating the the fact that crabs live in water and on land certainly link up with the Cancer sign. I understand why Chariot is linked to Cancer but personally don't identify with the card.

Kitty	11 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Ophiel . I don't mean to be crabby, -- OM LOL - Ophiel was that pun intended? Crabby - cancer - crab - get it :D

Thirteen	11 Dec 2002
I originally had trouble with this as well, but have come to rather like--and agree--that the Chariot is Cancer. It may not be as easy or evident as, say, Justice for Libra, but it really does fit--or can be made to. Here's how: 1) as mentioned, the chariot is armored--the charioteer often even has a canopy overhead, and so he takes his house with him, like the crab--like Cancerians. And like Cancerians, the Chariot is all about being armored and protected. Note also that Waite goes with Sphinxes instead of horses--Armored Cancers are often hard to know. Get past the armor and they're pretty easy, but if you're on the outside, they can be very Sphinx-like. The fact that we're moody and unpredictable makes us even more Sphinx-like. My spouse thinks I have multiple personalites and, luckly, finds it entertaining to be on a daily game-show of "who's my spouse going to be today?" 2) Cancer is a cardinal sign--meaning, Cancerians (like Capricorns, Aries and Libras) start stuff and are motivators, stimulators, generators---though, alas, we don't always finish the stuff we start ;) The chariot is very much a motivator. It leads the way into battle or leads the parade after victory is won--even if still and not moving, it is an inspiration, a motivator. The wheels imply motion--and I have seen the chariot pictured as being in motion in many a deck--most notably the Marseilles. Crowley, like Waite, has the chariot unmoving, but the wheels are HUGE, and used to imply wheels of time, change, forward motion. The Tarot Handbook talks of the "Chariot" people as being those who like a combination of "quiet" and "motion"--inside the chariot, all is safe and still and quiet. But the exterior is all motion--or potential motion. I find this VERY Cancerian. Cancers like the quiet of home; a safe haven, potected, unchanging--but they also hate monotony. Like the Moon, they are, contridictorally, all about change. And so they will stimilate, motivate, manipulate, generate in order to change any situation which has become moribund. Like the crab--or the chariot, they can suddenly change or move in unexpected directions. 3) Waite referred to the Chariot as "conquest on all planes"--very important, because the essence of the crab is it's ability to move from one plane to another, from land to water and back again. Cancer folk tend to do that as well--incredibly "spiritual" on the one hand, we also like our creature comforts. We're very pragmatic, but also wildly emotional. One plane to the next, water to land and back again. This also reflects the duality of the "horses"--each wanting to go its own way. Believe me, Cancers are often are in a quandry over what to focus on and, in such cases, we go nowhere. Which is, after all, one of the important messages of the chariot--that a lack of focus will keep the querent either immobile, or going first in one direction, then in another, to no purpose. Of course, if the Cancerian finds a focus, fixates on a particular goal, then he/she can either remain stubbornly still--or get those opposing horses to speed unstoppably ahead. And this, of couse, is the other meaning of the Chariot--it's advice if you will--a single focus can give you the power to reign in those conflicting horses and get them going in a single direction. Can get you moving, changing, heading toward victory. 4) Not that this single focus is always such a good thing. In a past discussion on the Chariot, another Cancer pointed out all the not-so-nice Cancer stuff that the Chariot mirrors. Like being unstoppable when in motion--hard to get into motion if stopped--and VERY intent on victory. So intent that a Cancer can and will roll right over those who get in their way (innocents included). Also, like the Chariot, Cancers don't often look beyond victory. Which is why you want Cancer for a campaign manager (to win the election for you) NOT for a candidate--because they won't know what do to with themselves once they've won the election. Yep. Very Cancerian that chariot.

bec	12 Dec 2002
one thing I wanna mention, which if I missed it in the posts, forgive me - the chariot attack from the side, so does the crab, aca they cant crawl forward or backwards, they crawl sidewards. All the chariot cards I have been looking at stimulates action and movement in the card, only it is really just an illusion. It seems it is, but look closely, either the horses, phinx, cats etc. dont have legs, the chariot dont have weels, always something missing in the card to make it real. And excuse me cancerians, but with all respect dont that fit equal to you guys, you love looking busy but what are you doing ?? Make believe and illusions, I dont blame the one thinking of chariot as magician with a mission - and that is a cancer down to the buttom line, make believes and illusions - till that lucky and blessed day you get to see what is behind the armor. anywho that is my 2-krone

Ophiel	12 Dec 2002
I do apologize, but I am definitely not having that an 'AHA!' experience about this card based on what you say. Sure, the clues are there, but could probably be just as easily found in other cards. This may well have more to do with some spiritual work I need to do on myself than your perceptions of this card, so do not take offense. However, I do think we might all (except for the initiates in the group, of course!) find a card that doesn't jive, and that's an important clue to our spiritual development. I think we can use our attractions/repulsions as actual tools for growth. No, I am certainly not repulsed by this card, but was merely using that as a comparison. Perhaps what I mean then is what I understand vs. not understand. I must continue on with my search for the true meaning of THE CHARIOT. A friend of mine, who is a 'tarot scholar', believes this card is a means of transportation to higher worlds, and that if one were to use the cards as a means of exploring the higher worlds, the Chariot would be the means of transportation. Interesting idea, but I could never get it to fly myself.

allibee	12 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by allibee Also his chariot and attire are covered with divine, alchemical and astrological symbols which speak of the strong spiritual nature of his quest. Ophiel, I said that already *LOL

JC	12 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen it really does fit--or can be made to. Thank you for the explanation. It really did help. See it's that can be made to that's bothering me. It gets in the way of my intuition if I try too hard. Mrsjvan - I learned with the Universal Waite, which also shows a stationary Chariot. But I learned it's basic meaning as "forward motion toward a goal" so I tend to think of it as moving.

Ophiel	12 Dec 2002
Actually, Allibee, in response to your comment, I really don't think we are talking about exactly the same thing at all. I used my own terms to express my thought. If you read my comments more closely, you will see my spiritual discussion is not specifically about this card, but a much bigger process. I do not consider THE CHARIOT as the epitome of the spiritual quest, but more the means of transportation. As a sign, I think Pisces is far closer to that quest, but, then dangerously close to the edge, too.

Hypatia	12 Dec 2002
I agree completely with you Bec. I was going through my R-W deck actually looking at the cards instead of seeing what I expected and that charioteer isn't going anywhere (IMO). There is nothing attaching the sphinxes to the chariot and they don't look like they're moving anyway. The charioteer is stuck in a block of concrete, there are wheels attached but they aren't big enough to lift the chariot off the ground. He's stuck where he is and looks frustrated about it. To be honest it strikes me as a card of anti-movement. Someone said the movement was an illusion and I can see that. He's putting up a good show but nothing's happening Thinking about the major arcana as a spiritual journery (I have 78 degrees wisdom). The chariot strikes me as somebody who has made his choice (the Lovers) but has got stuck and needs Strength to contiue on. But that could say more about me than the card. Hypatia

allibee	12 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Hypatia I agree completely with you Bec. I was going through my R-W deck actually looking at the cards instead of seeing what I expected and that charioteer isn't going anywhere (IMO). There is nothing attaching the sphinxes to the chariot and they don't look like they're moving anyway. The charioteer is stuck in a block of concrete, there are wheels attached but they aren't big enough to lift the chariot off the ground. He's stuck where he is and looks frustrated about it. To be honest it strikes me as a card of anti-movement. Someone said the movement was an illusion and I can see that. He's putting up a good show but nothing's happening Thinking about the major arcana as a spiritual journery (I have 78 degrees wisdom). The chariot strikes me as somebody who has made his choice (the Lovers) but has got stuck and needs Strength to contiue on. But that could say more about me than the card. Hypatia of course that is the joy of having so many different decks and artists to choose from these days, if you see the one from the Prediction Deck for example, then you'll see what I mean. Perhaps the lack of connection is merely, in that case, just down to the particular RW artwork? If the Chariot was about anti movement and being stuck, might it not have been better called and seen as the 'concrete shoes' or the 'medievel stocks'? Surely the use of the Chariot is about the warrior instinct, the force of will......................ARGGHHHHHHHH, I've GOT it. YESSSS, now..... OK, pick up a crab and put something near its pincers, what happens? Of course it grabs it and won't let it go no matter how hard you try and loosen it's grip, it will not release if it doesn't want to. That is a real Cancerian trait I can personally relate to, so why the chariot and not just a crab with something in its claw? Well, it needs something to describe the real nature and that is the horses/sphinx with the 'bit between their teeth'. But that's just an idea that jumped into my mind, a bit of an 'eureka' moment at my laptop, hehehe

allibee	12 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Ophiel [b] ..... I do not consider THE CHARIOT as the epitome of the spiritual quest..... Neither do I. Far from it. I was referring to the strength of will deployed in that quest. allibee

JC	12 Dec 2002
Actually, strength of will is another basic meaning for this card. I'm starting to see the point of the Chariot being Cancer-ish. Like I said, I thought Temperance was related to Cancer. I thought Temperance was about emotional equilibrium. But I can also now see it as spiritual equilibrium and growth, as suggested by Sag. The Chariot is beginning to seem less like a spiritual hero and more mundane, like the overall tone of one's emotions. I guess if I had to sum it up now, I would say it addresses one's ability to control their thoughts and actions in such a way that encourages consciously positive growth.

allibee	12 Dec 2002
http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/images/p-decks/predictioncards.gif can you see what I mean? Maybe, as I say, it is the fault of the imagery in the RW deck? From an illustrative point of view there is a lot of truth in the adage that 'less is more'. With so much 'busy - ness' going on within the RW Chariot, there is literally no room to place the chariot into much of a setting without losing the import they have placed on the symbology of the charioteers garb. Also it is not necessarily stuck in the ground, as not every artist is good at perspective. If she had made the sphinx any bigger - as in big enough to pull a chariot of that size and weight - you wouldn't have been able to see the wheels at all. My feeling is that certain elements were out of perspective so to give full reign (excuse the pun) to the symbology of the charioteers clothing. Therefore is it not the charioteer and not the chariot and its use that is the most important part of this card in the RW rendition? Meaning spiritually, it doesn't matter how we get there, as long as we do, and in my deck it's a hard and potentially dangerous journey, but your strength of will, will get you there. allibee

Thirteen	13 Dec 2002
I certainly agree that Waite (and his deck) are far more into the symbols than action or "image" of the card. It was likely far more important to Waite to get in those symbols, from sphinxes to canopy, wings, stars, moon epilettes (did you notice the moons on the shoulders? Tip of the hat to Cancer there)--that's why so many cards in the deck are face forward and fairly static--so you can see all the symbolism. Finding the element of Cancer in the Chariot can be elusive, but I think it's even harder in Waite than in most. Waite didn't want that Chariot in motion. OPHIEL: something you MUST remember: no matter the deck, the creator ISN'T doing Astrology. They're not drying to depict "Cancer" or any other Zodiac sign. If they were, then you wouldn't have a Chariot. You'd have a crab. What they're trying to depict is the Chariot. Cancer is a part of the Chariot, just like Aries is a part of the Emperor and Taurus is a part of the Hierophant (when you look at the Hierophant do you say "Ah-Ha!" Taurus without a doubt? If so, why? He doesn't have bull horns. Do you say "Ah-Ha" must be Gemini when you see the Lovers? Why? There's three figures in that card and no twins). But it's only A PART of the card, not all of it. ALLIBEE: Quote: Of course it grabs it and won't let it go no matter how hard you try and loosen it's grip, it will not release if it doesn't want to. That is a real Cancerian trait I can personally relate to, so why the chariot and not just a crab with something in its claw? Because the Chariot is about the crab going AFTER the thing it wants to nab in its claw--not about the crab already having nabbed it. If you're a Cancer, you can identify with this--if you see something you want in your pincers, really want, will you allow anything to stop or distract you? And here's another very Cancerian trait: the most important and revealing things in that card (go back to tarot garden there) is that canopy. That isn't your typical chariot, light and sleek and minimal. That's a TRAVELING HOUSE. Look at those four posts--like the four of staffs--implies a home. Cancers carry their homes with them--always, everywhere. It's what is most important to them. JC: Cancer is certainly less about spirituality than Pisces. Zodiac signs go up toward Spirituality. Cancer, the 4th house, is still toward the material and youthful end of the spectrum. And the emphasis on the "Home" is very material indeed--holding to things as well as people. Temperance, the other card you mention, is certainly far more related to the philosophical/spritual. Like a philosophical Sag., Temerance doesn't want opposites to remain opposites--it wants to merge or transform things. The Chariot, on the other hand, isn't trying to get those opposing horse to merge--just to get them both going in the same direction. Cancers, much less philosophical, really don't care if the opposites remain opposite--just so long as they go where the Cancer wants them to go ;)

allibee	13 Dec 2002
Originally posted by Thirteen *******If you're a Cancer, you can identify with this******* I AM a Cancer, LOL ****** Cancers, much less philosophical, really don't care if the opposites remain opposite--just so long as they go where the Cancer wants them to go ;) ********* Very true! allibee

JC	13 Dec 2002
Thank you for clearing that up, Thirteen. And I didn't know the signs moved "up" like that. Thanks!

Talisman	13 Dec 2002
'Lo all, Just a sort of side note to a thread I've been following with great interest -- and little comprehension: In addition to the Chariot allibee mentions in the Prediction deck, and others you all have mentioned, see the Chariot in the Arcus Arcanum Tarot deck for some fast and furious action. Talisman

The The Chariot as Cancer (Waite-Smith) thread was originally posted on 10 Dec 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.