The Devil - poor misunderstood fellow

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Diana	20 Dec 2002
The Devil card. It's got a bad reputation due to its name. But the poor fellow is so misunderstood. As he is not a member of the Aeclectic Tarot Forums, I thought I'd speak up for him and try and sort things out for him a bit. Of course, there's also the negative side to him (after all, he's duality incarnated), but here I'll just talk about the positive side. The Devil. The serpent that enticed Eve to eat the apple. He taught her how to transgress the law. He is therefore also, amongst many other things, the instrument that permitted Man (in the generic sense) to awake to his full being, to access his true identity and to the fact that he exists as a conscious being. That's a nice thought, isn't it? It's only when we are faced with our limits, that we can overcome them. The Devil allows us to recognise these limits. The word Devil comes from the Greek and means "to separate". He brought to light (after all, Lucifer is the bringer of light) the duality of man and woman, the yin and the yang, the light and the darkness. He awakened the dormant delights of sexual love and desire. But then, you may ask, does the Devil in Tarot represent Lucifer or Satan? The bringer of light who awaits his redemption, or Satan, the mother of all evil? I'll bet my money on Lucifer. Don't forget, if darkness exists, then it's opposite, light must exist too. The Devil card insists on this corollary forcefully. The Devil is the first card of the third initiation (Tarot is divided into three initiatory parts, 3x7). You see, you cannot meet God if you haven't first met the Devil. He's powerful and he is asking you "What are you going to do with your power?" Ideally, one should use this power for higher aims, to serve others, and not to make them serve you. It's only our fear of the Devil that makes him scary. Banish the fear, and he is actually a really friendly chap. That's all for now. But I may be back another day.

Kissa	20 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana The Devil card. It's got a bad reputation due to its name. But the poor fellow is so misunderstood. As he is not a member of the Aeclectic Tarot Forums, I thought I'd speak up for him and try and sort things out for him a bit. Of course, there's also the negative side to him (after all, he's duality incarnated), but here I'll just talk about the positive side. (...) It's only our fear of the Devil that makes him scary. Banish the fear, and he is actually a really friendly chap. Thanks for this very interesting thread, Diana. I didn't like the Devil card at all until I got into Tarot de Marseille where the nice chap you are talking about ;-) appears under quite a different light than in every Rider Waite clone I've ever studied. The Devil card in Morgan Greer is quite frightening for example (sorry, no scan available :-( ). Quote: But then, you may ask, does the Devil in Tarot represent Lucifer or Satan? The bringer of light who awaits his redemption, or Satan, the mother of all evil? I'll bet my money on Lucifer. Dramatic lack of culture in that evil subject : I thought they were all the same, just using different names to mess ppl's minds !!! Thanks for clarifying that one up ! (I'll bet my money on the same horse than you) Kissa

zander770	20 Dec 2002
i am currently writing an article on exactly this ("Sympathy for the Devil's Sympathy: the #15 Tarot Key vs. the Greek god Pan" for http://www.suite101.com/mystuff/mystuff.cfm mayhap i'll post it, here, next week, for everyone's perusal?!?) yes, yes, yes! being--as i am, like jesus!--a capricorn and a lover of tarot and mythology, i find it quite interesting that the god Pan is/was/"so they say" USED as a "model" for the #15 key. also, i find several correlations, not only/obviously betwixt #15 and #6, but also between #15 and #1 & #5! thx for the thread, diana! more, later... ~Z~770 zander from dander })

DeLani	20 Dec 2002
I also have a different view of the Devil. I agree that he has been way to stereotyped. He is the "antidote" to too much Hierophant - he's about flauting convention, reveling in pleasures of the flesh, and freakign people out just for the sake of a good laugh. I rather like him...

allibee	20 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana . Don't forget, if darkness exists, then it's opposite, light must exist too. The Devil card insists on this corollary forcefully. You see, you cannot meet God if you haven't first met the Devil. He's powerful and he is asking you "What are you going to do with your power?" Hi Diana As I was reading this, I was sitting here nodding - in hopefully a profound manner;) - and when I got to the end of your quote my little inner voice was saying " no, no.... not what are you going to do with your power..... but what are you going to do with your life. You may well disagree, but following on from where you say you cannot meet God if you haven't first met the Devil, I often feel that this is why we are in this life classroom. Being presented with all these things that naughty old Devil wants us to stumble down on and succumb to. Getting presented with the same lessons over and over again until we get it right and then guess what?....we get a different lesson. He seems like the worst kind of school teacher you can get..... and I hated school with a passion... but NOW I understand all the things they were trying to teach me were for my own advancement. The worst, most insidious teachers, were actually the best. The 'good' teachers (ok, what does the class want to do today? teachers) actually were the least proficient. Maybe his image must look frightening to get us to listen to him.... did we all have one particular teacher the we used to think was a fire breathing methusala/demon headmaster who frightened the pants off of us? Do you remember them clearly? I know I do. And what of the wishy washy ones that were quite cool but ineffectual, do you remember them as clearly? I know I don't. So, thinking of him as an ultra sadistic *LOL* school teacher who keeps us back after class, with loads of extra homework seems appropriate to me. His is definately the School of Hard Knocks. We all learn at different rates and in due course we emerge from the dark womb of the classroom, into the staggering brightness that is God. We have graduated. Those that don't get kept behind in detention. But without the tarot to show us, we may not be aware that we even enrolled for the class. Then it is not such a leap of faith to see the Devil not as the opposite of God, but still as his right hand man. A colleague, if you will. A close working relationship nonetheless. Or maybe we can see the Devil as the Demon Headmaster and God as the Chairman of the board of Govenors. Theirs is the job of setting the curriculum, and making sure that it gets properly taught. After all, there is no better recommendation for a school than all it's students graduating, is there. allibee

lunalafey	20 Dec 2002
I have never feared the devil....spelled backwards is lived...so? In my very first deck it was represented as the white buffalo....this is from my Native American deck. The White Buffalo woman was the one who brought the peace pipe to the tribes....the birth of a white buffalo is a sign of promise.... zander770....No one will ever know for sure, but Jesus is not really a Capricorn. From astrological recourses, he's actually a Leo, which makes more sense, King of the zodiac....It was determined by Keppler(?) that the Star of Bethlehem was actually a conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter that occured at the time of Jesus' birth, in August. sorry for being a bit off topic

Umbrae	20 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana ... He is therefore also, amongst many other things, the instrument that permitted Man (in the generic sense) to awake to his full being, to access his true identity and to the fact that he exists as a conscious being.... It's only when we are faced with our limits, that we can overcome them. The Devil allows us to recognise these limits. The word Devil...means "to separate"... So we speak of boundaries, and the divisions, and the finding of the edges of those divisions – the separating of the differences… It is so easy to misunderstand the ‘deities’ when we have so few – they were taken away from us, simplified. Few see, and fewer understand the old ones. In reality, the tempter and the deity of borders are two different things, one the Devil, the other – Coyote for lack of global misunderstanding of Hermes (the actual god of thieves). No, the trickster and the tempter should not be confused – as there is more than simply black and white… There is far more to the world than a mere duality…far more…

Laurel	20 Dec 2002
I think one of the things us 21st centurian humans are doing right is learning to approach the Devil with increasing humor and gentleness. There's so much empowerment in looking Temptation in the face, thinking carefully, smiling and saying "no thanks" or "yes please" and letting what happens happen knowing that in the end, we are responsible for our own actions and outcomes. I'm going to have to put some thought into Umbrae's comments about the Tempter and the Trickster because both archetypes have certainly been demonized and I could say historically have been represented in Christian mythology by "Old Scratch" and his imps. Providing both their own due makes some sense though, and yet, there is a connection between them in my mind, including within the tarot. A point for serious pondering. Laurel

allibee	20 Dec 2002
perhaps Laurel, it is a matter of reversals....my pet hate LOL.... could he be the the one that provides the boundaries one way up, and the one that knows no bounds the other? Just a thought allibee

Major Tom	21 Dec 2002
for such a wonderful defense of our friend. I've had to pull out my copy of the Grateful Dead's American Beauty just to listen to A Friend of the Devil yet another time. In my opinion the best song ever written about the Devil. *singing* set off running, but I take my time. A friend of the Devil is a friend of mine... Play it Uncle Jerry! I also liked Anne Rice's take on the Devil in Memnoch: The Devil. Just a couple of lines from The Tarot Path of Self Development by Micheline Stuart: "...now we are face to face with the evils of our fallen nature... We need the natural forces to keep us alive physically... the characteristics of our personality...are in disorder...these characteristics need to be observed and acknowledged before we can achieve harmony. For example, vanity must be moderated so that it can be transformed into dignity, our anger must be tamed into courage and engery, sloth must become rest from physical labor or preparation for action." The Devil controls the physical plane. We need him for our survival as physical entities. The lesson he teaches is one of moderation. It's only when we desire more than we need that we fall into the Devil's trap. }) My mother always told me the best response when the Devil offers you more than you need is laughter.

Webfoot	21 Dec 2002
The Devil—poor misunderstood fellow. Excuse me?? Sympathy for the devil, huh. Don’t know as I’d want him for a playpal. Don’t think he’s the Trickster. That’s more the Magician. The Tempter? Temptation doesn’t spring to mind first with the Devil. (Probably I’m just getting too old to appreciate the concept.) Most of the Tarot Devils I can think of show images of bondage, imprisonment, or limitation. And this is the meaning I find in the card when reading. I like Diana’s pointing out the growth possibilities in recognizing and going beyond limiting patterns. The RWS and Marseilles bondees do not look concerned. Are they having a good time? Do they know they can be redeemed? Is that why they look so cheerful despite the devil towering over them? This is, after all, a Christian Devil. (“Hereof is the chain and fatality of the material life.” Waite) The Thoth deck, on the other hand, shows us the Pagan Pan, god of the masculine creative principle, reveling in the material life—though the creatures waiting to be born out of those egg shapes do not express joy to me in their movements. Anyway, both Devils—pagan and christian—seem to stare out at us, one glaring, the other with a bit of a smirk. And both are utterly alien. I think this card shares with the Moon and the Wheel a certain inhumanness. As if their real concerns are unknown to us, beyond our ken. An agnostic’s view, maybe. (Maybe I’m having a Christmas depression!) Certainly a rather one-sidedly masculine view of things. What do the Goddess and Wiccan decks do with this devil entity? Thanks for the thought-provoking thread.

Khatruman	21 Dec 2002
Thank you for this, Diana. Your take on the devil is wonderfully insightful. I like what you said about the devil bringing man into knowledge. I like to look at the story of Adam and Eve as allegorical of growing from children into adults. As children, we live in Eden, all provided for us and nothing but to learn and play. Yet there is that world out there, that tree of knowledge with its fruits, that we are forbidden to partake of, yet it stands at the center of our garden.. (always thought it telling that this "forbidden tree" stood center in the Garden of Eden. Ever sit a jar of cookies on a kitchen table and tell kids, "Now, don't you DARE eat any of these cookies"? Any parent knows that if you don't want them to eat it, you put it out of sight. So either God is a pretty dumb parent, which I doubt, or he wants to challenge us). The devil comes along, who is the one who guides us into maturity, through the temptations of the joys we see in being an adult, and thus we eat of maturity's fruit. Of course most obviously in sexuality, but in many many other ways also. And our "punishment" is to have to work for our food now and bear children in pain and sacrifice. Well, you can look at it as punishment, but I see it more as responsibility.. Would rather have that than the blissful garden of stupidity. Thank you, Diana, for the insights. Peace!

Moongold	21 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana You see, you cannot meet God if you haven't first met the Devil. This is a wonderful quote. I think we all have to confront the darkness that seeps into our lives from time to time and this, to me, is the Devil. The shadow/darkness is something we have to at least understand. Where was it that I heard that the Devil is God's shadow? I find it difficult now to think of the Devil as a real entity. Those of us who grew up with the hell fire and brimstone of the Catholic Church of our childhood have spent years moving away from this. The Devil symbolizes that dark sides of ourselves that ultimately we have to change. The presence of the Devil card in a tarot spread illustrates that, I think. I confronted the Devil in tarot initially by using the card as a signifier. That helps a lot. No, there are far more real things to fear than the Devil. Blessings, Moongold

Osher	21 Dec 2002
In the Old Path tarot, the Devil is called Temptation, and is a couple bound by a snake, with a fox in front of them. Now, that ol'fox looks frightening enough, but the truth is that the Devil (at least in this context) is inside of us. It is easy to blame someone else, much harder to accept that we are at 'fault'. The Devil thus doesn't force us to do anything, he just place temptation infront of us. We know inside right from wrong. In many decks the couple are naked and bound together. What does this say? It isn't marriage, it's something else. Lust maybe? Yet the commitment aspect is troubling, as lust has no commitment, unless it blinds us to reality, and how many people marry just because their partner is good looking, and good in bed? Therefore, when I see the Devil in a spread I think: commitment, or rather, negative commitment, or even lust, temptation etc. It is not an evil person, it could even be a person too good (like the person who buys an overweight friend a hamburger because they asked for it, even though it is bad for them)

zander770	21 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by allibee I often feel that this is why we are in this life classroom. Being presented with all these things that naughty old Devil wants us to stumble down on and succumb to. Getting presented with the same lessons over and over again until we get it right and then guess what?....we get a different lesson. [/b] now, i am really REALLY beginning to get scared . . . nietzsche's "ethernal return," sartre's "no exit," i am d o o o o m e d ! ! ! ha!!! ~Z~770 :smoker:

Ophiel	21 Dec 2002
Just a passing thought about the Dev...how could wo/mankind know the consequences of choices without a fully realized opposite? And doesn't the devil tempt us all, and we can learn the resolve of our own choices/ethics/morals in our ability to remain steadfast with our choices in the face of this adversity?

DeLani	22 Dec 2002
Of course I don't follow the Christian story of the devil snake temping Eve with the fruit of knowledge. I think of that as just another piece of propaganda written by Hebrew priests to demonize the snake-dancing priestesses in the lands around them. Anyway, back on topic, I agree wholeheartedly with the Devil as the physical. He and the Hierophant (to me) exist at opposite ends of a spectrum - spirit vs. flesh. Going too far in either direction isn't balanced. Too spiritual & neglect of the physical, and you aren't grounded, you become easy prey for guru types, and can become a "slave" of some cult (yes, even 2,000 yr. old ones). In the other direction, too much physical without spiritual insight gives you a big fat monkey on your back - for food, sex, drugs, alcohol, whatever. So to the Pagan mind, there is no real split between spirit and flesh, they are two halves of the whole, so we tend them equally, careful not to fall for either extreme. So the Hierophant and the Devil balance each other, like Yin & Yang.

Diana	23 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani Of course I don't follow the Christian story of the devil snake temping Eve with the fruit of knowledge. DeLani, I doubt anyone here believes that story! :) It's just an allegory and I used it that way! Don't forget, historically, Tarot was fed and nurtured by these kind of stories, so one cannot ignore them when one is studying Tarot and its symbology.

Silverlotus	23 Dec 2002
I used to have a really hard time relating to the Devil card when I first began with Tarot. And I guess it is for sort of the same reason the "general public" doesn't like the card, well, actually the opposite reason. I was never a very devout Christian, even at that age. I always thought the stories from the Bible were just great stories. And I don't think I ever believe in the Bible. And just before I found Tarot I began exploring Wicca. No Devil there, just the Horned God, who was rather nice. :) So, when I started reading Tarot using the Aquarian deck, the Devil didn't mean much to me. I guess at that age I hadn't experienced many situations where I felt trapped. (I started with Tarot in grade 6, when I was about 11 or 12. I was a very precocious little girl.) A few years later, I got Ms. Cannon Reed's Witches' Tarot that featured the Horned God as the Devil card. Now I could relate! The meaning Ms. Cannon Reed gives the card is somewhat similar to the "traditional" meanings, but she gives it as the reversed meaning. For upright, it is "acceptance of that which cannot be proved or the learning of the existence of that which cannot be proved" (The Witches Qabala: Book 2, pg. 231). I think this comes through in the picture, where a couple seems surprised to have come across the Horned One. Now that I have switched back to a more "traditional" deck, the Robin Wood. I am able to see the more "traditional" meaning in her depiction of a couple trying to pull a secured chest in two different directions. There, graphically, is bondage to your situation (the reversed meaning I had learned to use), and as a reverse, acknowledgement of this bondage. Honestly, I still don't totally get the RW image. I don't relate to the image of the "Devil", but I can see from the people's situation the meaning of the card. I do quite like the image in the Hanson-Robert's deck, where it seems like the couple could easily break the rope securing them if only they tried.

zander770	31 Dec 2002
Quote: [i] zander770....No one will ever know for sure, but Jesus is not really a Capricorn. From astrological recourses, he's actually a Leo, which makes more sense, King of the zodiac....It was determined by Keppler(?) that the Star of Bethlehem was actually a conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter that occured at the time of Jesus' birth, in August. sorry for being a bit off topic [/b] hey hey my my! sorry to be so late in getting back to this (i must remember to "click" WATCH THREAD more often)! yes, i've "heard" of this, and i'm interested, but, i was refering ("tongue in cheek") to kris kristofferson's 197? hit album (w/then wife rita coolage, i believe?) -- "jesus was a capricorn" !!! that's all -- i know, i know, i am a "newbe," here and ya all don't "recognize" it when i am joking, yet. sorry!!! diana said, above, how #15's "backward," and "upsidedown," and, he is! (e.g., male AND female breasts; bat wings "upsidedown"; his face is that of a goat, but his ears are that of a donkey's; his arms are in the same "as above so below" position as the magicians, inveted pentacle on his forehead, et al.) i could expound a lot more (gematria, verses from the bible, hebrew) and i will, if you'd like me too ("no! save us! save us")! and, if that's not enough "backward/upsidedown" comment's regarding key #15/the devil, then, just cf my signature, below. slan leat, ~Z~770 :TDEV

zander770	31 Dec 2002
Quote: Originally posted by Diana The Devil is the first card of the third initiation (Tarot is divided into three initiatory parts, 3x7). [/b] yes! the magician is the first card of the first position; strength the first card in the second position; the devil the first in the third, with the fool atop, directly in the middle! like "geometery," ain't it! (i'd like to search more re this and see if there're topical threads. mayhap we'll p.m. one another, again, diana?) in rereading this topic i see that there's many words/ideas relating the devil to the hierophant but not much relating the devil to #6/the lovers (and, "as 15 is the sum of the numbers from 0 to 5 [key #5/the heirophant; (that is: "0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 15")] . . . by addition of diget's, 15 reduces to 6 [#6/the lovers]" --paul foster case, _the tarot_) nor anything to speak of relating #14/temperance with the devil (1 + 4 = 5, too), the last key on second initiation, preceeding key #15. i've, and other's, above, have mentioned how the "two figures" on key #15 are "seemingly" in "bondage," and that the devil key refers to that (and i agree--also addiction, desire, lust, a "choice," etc), but, the figures "could" easily release themselves by removing their chains. a contridiction? i think so! like everything else in #15, the chains are "imaginary." the devil is the complete opposite of the angel on #14 (michael?), isn't he? moreover, he is almost a caricature of the angel (raphael?) over the head's of #6/the lovers! (granted, i am refering to "decks of the golden dawn," and i realize that other's--robin wood's, for example, a deck i like reading with, very much--uses a "monkey trap" theme [yet retains the male and female "in bondage"]!) also, i mention the two angels in parenthesis because a friend and i are in disagreement regarding which angels appear on keys #6, #14, but we DO agree on #20/judgement (gabriel), everyone will be glad to hear. :joke: other's, here, may disagree w/me, too. http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tarot/97189 i must have the devil on the brain, today ("'cause, surely, i'll have him on tonight," de dum dum!) for i'm seeing yet anOTHER topical thread here . . . peace out, ~Z~770 :T2P

Ursula	01 Jan 2003
i just did my reading for 2003, & the Devil came up representing me, so i'm glad to have a less negative take on him... er, ME!!! thanks, ~Urs :OL

tigerlily 6563	05 Jan 2003
I too, like most of us I think, have a sinking feeling when our friend the Devil comes up. LUckily for me my first deck was Native Americian Deck and shows a positive look at him. I feel that we can not truly reach our light until we know our darkness. Or seen another way reach our full potential without knowing our weaknesses. So the Devil shows up in readings when this is happening rather helpful when you think about it as we don't like to see the negative in ourselves or others. I soon learnt too that The Devil has a different face for everyone that is why he is hard to see. This is my view on The Devil, does anyone agree?

Karenwhe	06 Jan 2003
Very interesting thread. I thought you may want to read this view on the Devil: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2282/tarot/15.htm

zander770	06 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe Very interesting thread.I thought you may want to read this view on the Devil: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2282/tarot/15.htm most excellent, Karenwhe! i bookmarked ms braden's site and i thought it great, especially since that she used a #15 key from the b.o.t.a. tarot deck (for i was referencing this deck and paul foster case in a few of my posts, above). yes, #15/the devil can refer to "bondage," "temptation," "lust and addiction," et al, BUT, when we look closely at the card (any golden dawn based deck; in the cisero's deck they've already removed the chains!) the chains that "bind" the male and female figure's ("these TWO" that appear throughout the tarot, but, especially w/in the major arcana; in such keys as: #5, #6, #7, #13, #14, #16, #18, #19, and; #20!!!) could be EASILY lifted up and over their heads, off from their necks, and they'd escape! well? fact is that they DO . . . but only to "run right up to the top of the tower," and . . . just exactly as the circus elephant remains "bound" to the post by thin twine, it's the "idea"; the "Trick of the Mind" (not that i think elephant's have "minds"); the LIE that keeps us sentiant beings' "tied" and "bound" to these damaging "things" (e.g., idea(l)s, false belief's, any and every religious dogma that "makes you" feel "unworthy"); these Old Ideas and Belief's which--altho we do not "believe in THEM," anymore, we carry them, like luggage, and just cannot put them down! i also very much appreciate robin wood's #15 key; the one she calls: "greed" and "the monkey trap," for in its depiction there's the same, two male and female figures (no "devil," tho, alas!), but, their are still very much "bound"; stuck in the Monkey Trap (a very real "trap-set" for catching monkies--in some third-world counties they are forced to eat monkies, sadly), but, instead of "fruit" which the monkies covet, the trap is over-flowing w/rare coins and jewels! (*a Monkey Trap is basically a strong-box w/a hole atop it, or a jar w/a narrow neck, and the "problem" [i.e., the "bondage" and "greed"] arises when the monkey puts a hand through the hole, grasps the "prize" [the "fruit"] then cannot remove the fist, now full of The Prize, and, although s/he "tries and tries" and "screams and screams," s/he cannot Let GO! "lust" and "covetousness," so? s/he's lunch.*) and, by the way? the "chains" remain in the robin wood deck, though; they're used to hold the Monkey Trap "tightly" in place. the chains are very big and "thick," too. they form a "perfect" inverted-pentagram . . . ms wood's tarot symbolism is elequant and refreshingly "new," although the traditional, intristic tarot intent remains TRUE! ~z~770 :TDEV

sagitarian	06 Jan 2003
ok, I keep trying to post here, and for some reason, it won't let me, and I don't mean this site, or the computer, I mean freaky things keep happening and no matter how I try, the forces that be won't let me...sighs. I'll try again another day.

HOLMES	27 Feb 2003
diana asked me to share a thought when we were discussing the tarot devil card in chat one day ,, that was long ago, and i just found where i put it on the computer. "aye he is misunderstood especialy by me as he brings up revilation but only love can conquer him so he must be loved so he can transfrom . " to understand that which is reviled by so many is hard at first, for what use of is it to try to understand hitler, napleon,? looking at this comment, i have to explain it in better detaile. the devil is misunderstood for generally it represents that which is the most vile in man, fear, hate, anger, disgust, and all the powers that go with these dark emotions such as bondage, slavery to them, i said especialy by me as at the time i was dealing with dark emotions especially fear when it comes to ghost, who are simply departed freed spirits from their physical constructs which we call the body, and he brought up revilation as at the time i was going through an understanding as there are 9 levels of angels there are nine levles of demons and what purpose does these 9 levels of demons serve, yet to destroy the light. love and light conquers our fears, and drives off dark forces, an interesting thing is ,, the more you follow the light , the more dark forces get attracted to you for they desire the light in a unconscious desires to transform themselves yet their conscionsious desire is to corrupt it. when i spoke he must be loved so he can transform, i was refering to that story i wrote last year about loving the devil and he becomes an angel of light who was simply sent to tempt you, to make you stronger, and by getting you to embrace your dark desires to transfrom them and bring more light unto you . however these demons who are on the nine levels of darkness, they are a differnt entity which loves drives them off, for they can't stand it. and so loves help you get past the dark night, and to realize your inner demons and transform them and move on to the next card of the tower,the rebuilding of yourself. we have said many times that death doesn't mean death , but change, yet we know deep down it means death eventually , we are mortals, and thus will die the physical death. as evolving humans it is quite clear that our minds, our emotions,and our spirituality will die , and rebirth into something new, or we become clear. thus the devil card really has a devil involved, negative forces which say listen to us, do our will, and we listen and think to ourselves hate, fear, but we must face them and said i have hate, i must see where it comes from, i have fear i must see where it stems. (who signature was , the devil didn't make me do it but it came highly recommended, it should be added, yet i made my own choice for better or worse of what to do ) the dark night of the soul comes to us, just as death does, but the good night ahead, in the star, and the moon before the dawn lies ahead, we will make it.

GreaterSecrets	27 Feb 2003
Nice little line of thinking here Diana. I think you may be onto something. And rather than responding the usual way let me pose some questions (via a Rider deck)... Why does The Devil come so late in the sequence (15)? Are those The Lovers standing there (1+5=6)? Are those chains really going to hold those two if they decide to flee? Speaking of fleeing, they don't look so unhappy to me, why? And what's up with the horns? Talk about funny...I love the fact that the guy is having his tail set afire while the woman's tail consists of grapes. Wine, women, and song...so where's the song? Why is one of The Devil's hand raised and the other lowered (for a hint refer to The Magician)? Why does he have the glyph of Saturn on his hand? I thought The World (21) was 'ruled' by Saturn, what's the connection? Here's a tough one for ya...if this is suppose to be positive, how do you explain all the black? __________________ Gilabno: Greater Secrets

HOLMES	27 Feb 2003
Why does The Devil come so late in the sequence (15)? the devil comes late as it takes time for us to build up spiritual strenght and expereince to face our fears, Are those The Lovers standing there (1+5=6)? aye they are, Are those chains really going to hold those two if they decide to flee? no , that is the message, the lovers, (or you could say our male and female selves) are free to leave when they want. Speaking of fleeing, they don't look so unhappy to me, why? And what's up with the horns? the horns symbolize fertility in the thoth, here they stands for myths, imo the ideal we externalize our personal demons, Talk about funny...I love the fact that the guy is having his tail set afire while the woman's tail consists of grapes. Wine, women, and song...so where's the song? what you mean song ? Why is one of The Devil's hand raised and the other lowered (for a hint refer to The Magician)? well we all got our own view on the that,, i didn't read crowley book so i didnt' go to the source, yet in the magican we are creating our reality,, so in the devil card we are creating our reality out of fear, and dark desires, Why does he have the glyph of Saturn on his hand? I thought The World (21) was 'ruled' by Saturn, what's the connection? saturn is considered the devil planet Here's a tough one for ya...if this is suppose to be positive, how do you explain all the black? the black represents the lack of light, to some, i am seeing it as the void, of yin which we make yang out of,, or rather what existed before the light spoke forth creation.

miranda	27 Feb 2003
hi diana:) i agree with most of your post.. but i tend to disagree on this part <> to quote edgar cayce.. we are souls spiritual beings who have created for ourselves mental bodies & are projecting into physical bodies. There is a portion of us the spirit entity which is pefect & has never left the throne of god.Thus there is the potential *the superconscious* for the soul to be in attunement with the whole.But there is aportion of us born of a spirit of rebellion which has gone its own willfull way. Thus we find outselves in the present finite physical consciousness which tells me when we chose to rebell*adam & eve * is when we actully CLOSED ourselves rather than opened ourselves

miranda	27 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tigerlily 6563 I too, like most of us I think, have a sinking feeling when our friend the Devil comes up. LUckily for me my first deck was Native Americian Deck and shows a positive look at him. I feel that we can not truly reach our light until we know our darkness. Or seen another way reach our full potential without knowing our weaknesses. So the Devil shows up in readings when this is happening rather helpful when you think about it as we don't like to see the negative in ourselves or others. I soon learnt too that The Devil has a different face for everyone that is why he is hard to see. This is my view on The Devil, does anyone agree? i agree .. you dont reach your full potential toward good unless you are aware & willing to *fight* the dark in you the conlicting energys together make a even stronger force when played off of eachother hope that made sense LOL

Diana	02 Mar 2003
miranda: Thanks for sharing that quote from Edgar Cayce. I agree with him that there is a portion of us that is perfect still. That perfection is possibly what we are all seeking in order to return to the Garden of Eden. Once Adam and Eve had eaten that apple, they brought to reality the aspect of Duality, and therefore had to leave the Garden of Eden which was symbolic of Unity. (I think I'm paraphrasing Joseph Campbell here, but can't be sure.) (It must be Campbell - because he was truly one of the greatest mythologists, and the Garden of Eden myth is an incredibly rich myth.) In Oswald Wirth's wonderful Tarot deck, he gives the Hebrew sign "Samech" to the Devil. It is the symbol of, amongst other things, the same sound that the snake makes when it hisses. GreaterSecrets: I cannot comment too much on the Rider Waite Devil. (This deck is not one of my favourites, to put it mildly.) However, your comment on the Lovers is interesting. 15 equals 5 plus 1 equals 6. VI is the Lovers card. In the Apocalypse, six is the number of sin. (The Antechrist is 666.) All wild animals can be tamed. Tame your instincts, but do not annihilate them. Even more important: don't try and ignore them! For then the monsters will grow and grow until they force you to acknowledge them. But then it may be too late. And instead of the Tower liberating you from its (now) unnecessary constraints, freeing you from your ivory tower, the Tower will hurl you to the ground with such force that you may be knocked out for some time, or even worse. Wirth reminds us in his fascinating book "Le Tarot, des Imagiers du Moyen Age" (I don't recall the English name) that Pride can be transformed into Dignity, Anger into Courage, Sloth into needed Rest, etc. etc. GreaterSecrets also poses the interesting question as to why the Devil comes so late. Holmes says it well. To face one's own self (we are often our own worst enemy), one needs to have some understanding of who one is. It takes a long journey to even understand that one has a "self". Holmes is right too when he says that the more you follow the light, the more the darkness gets attracted to the light. Opposites always attract each other. Which is why some wonderful lightworkers and prophets turn into wicked and power-hungry gurus. If God is the creator of all things, then he created the Devil too. Now Major Tom can step in and tell us that the Devil is therefore God. ;)

Major Tom	02 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Now Major Tom can step in and tell us that the Devil is therefore God. ;) How can I possibly resist such a temptation? :laugh: I'm going to quote Paul Foster Case from The Tarot - A Key to the Wisdom of the Ages: "Internally, we know that we are potiential lords of creation. But here we meet a check, there a defeat, and so we try to explain why we are not actually free as we feel ourselves internally to be" The chains are loose, lift them off! :laugh: Paul Foster Case attributes the hebrew letter Ayin to the Devil. Naturally this is a Golden Dawn system. :) *shrugs* Works for me. :) To further quote Case: "Nevertheless, laughter is prophylactic. It purifies subconsciousness and dissolves mental complexes and conflicts." My mother used to tell me that laughter was the best defense against the Devil. :D I need to develop a better sense of humor. :laugh:

miranda	02 Mar 2003
kinda excited about this.. havent read tom & dianas post yet... but i had a idea about the devil last night.. another GOOD aspect of him in a marriage.. i think the *devil* is present when it comes to sex.. any sex not used to procreation i belive is the GOOD aspect of the devil let me know what yall think..)

miranda	02 Mar 2003
ok now ive read the other posts:) diana.. ive come to start thinking that possibly adam & eve where not people.. they are merely a metaphore to help us in this consciousness understand our *fall* & tom <<"Internally, we know that we are potiential lords of creation. But here we meet a check, there a defeat, and so we try to explain why we are not actually free as we feel ourselves internally to be" >> I like this :)

All Is One	12 Mar 2003
To the daemons we all could be... If We So Dared~ You are devils and angels on alternate Tuesday afternoons... We are destined to suffer the Existential conflicts b'tween the worlds of Angels & Devils and worse- our own faces and the hands unto toes with which we were born with All of these Universes in one solitary split life Time. Not as sad As if We could not Worship

wolfen045	17 Mar 2003
I did not mean to start a new thread I meant my remarks about the devil to be part of this one! I am very new To both this forum and the internet in general. I got this computer for my birthday in JanuarY so I still make LOTS Of Mistakes. Please forgive me ,Diana and everyone one else who contributed to this thread.

Alex	17 Mar 2003
As you have mentioned the good part of the Devil: Adam was all too often out and about "naming animals" (Adam was the first taxonomist in history and thanks to him I have a profession now). After the first excitement with a new girl, Adam was getting tired (as often the case with men) of her. Besies, Eve was the only "fish in the ocean", so Adam didn't feel like he had to invest too much in the relationship. As a result, poor unsatisfied Eve went get in trouble with ... oh well, nothing less than... a snake! So may be it isn't because too much of "The Devil", but too FEW, that we have ended up where we are now. wolfen045: people start new threads all the time. Don't worry, relax, you haven't made a "mistake". Alex. Quote: Originally posted by miranda diana.. ive come to start thinking that possibly adam & eve where not people.. they are merely a metaphore to help us in this consciousness understand our *fall*

miranda	18 Mar 2003
*snort* laff yea had the naughty little devil been more present with them 2 eve may not have wandered off :) another thing that may have helped their case would have been a little back bone.. they were both so quick to push offf the blame... hrrmm what card would that be? judgement? or strength?

The The Devil - poor misunderstood fellow thread was originally posted on 20 Dec 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.