The Empress, don't you just love her...
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Dec 2002, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| allibee |
21 Dec 2002 |
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Hi peeps,
I just got my card assignment, which has already been mostly realised in my minds eye.
I have a lot of views of her but would love to take this opportunity to find out what she says to you, so get posting!
allibee
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| allibee |
21 Dec 2002 |
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Ok, I've just done a search on her in the archives and nothing much came up..... I don't think you guys know very much about this enigma!
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| Diana |
21 Dec 2002 |
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No threads on the Empress? Well then allibee, it was about time you redressed this unfortunate situation! Thank you.
Well, while I await eagerly for what you have to tell us about her and to see your card once it's designed, I'll add my few cents to this thread.
She's the intellectual lady. Everything is very much in her head. Emotions don't get released easily with her (in the Marseilles decks, she often has, strangely, an Adam's apple which has a lot of meanings, one of which shows that she doesn't share her emotions and feelings very much. So if you get this card constantly in your readings, I would advise you to let your feelings out before you start getting a sore throat.)
She's good with words though - an excellent communicator. Good sense of synthesis too. In the beginning was the Word……. Yes indeed, the Empress represents Words. As well as Ideas. Such a cerebral person, you can't find anywhere else in the Tarot. In fact, she can often have headaches due to this, so if someone comes for a reading and gets the Empress, I would ask them if they haven't been reaching for the aspirin rather often lately.
As she deals with the mental, she's very much an Air element. Lucid, she is. I think her cousin (by marriage or by birth, I don't know) is the Queen of Swords. Only the Queen of Swords doesn't yield power like the Empress does. An Empress has a scepter, a Queen of Swords, only a Sword.
Reversed meanings can be, amongst many others, that she is very shy and uncommunicative. She may have an inferiority complex. (Or she may talk and talk without saying anything, just to fill the empty lonely silence around her, but this would very much depend on the other cards.)
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| Khatruman |
21 Dec 2002 |
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Originally posted by Diana
She's the intellectual lady. Everything is very much in her head. Emotions don't get released easily with her (in the Marseilles decks, she often has, strangely, an Adam's apple which has a lot of meanings, one of which shows that she doesn't share her emotions and feelings very much. So if you get this card constantly in your readings, I would advise you to let your feelings out before you start getting a sore throat.)
She's good with words though - an excellent communicator. Good sense of synthesis too. In the beginning was the Word……. Yes indeed, the Empress represents Words. As well as Ideas. Such a cerebral person, you can't find anywhere else in the Tarot.
As she deals with the mental, she's very much an Air element.
Wow, this is what I love about reading other's posts. This is totally different than my understanding of the Empress. My impression is that she is a motherly, fertile symbol.. Sometimes she is even shown as pregnant and hints at that with the roundness of her belly on the RW deck. To me, a motherly figure is more earthly than air, and very emotional and protective. The bringing of ideas into fruition.
If I had read your description here, without knowing which card you were talking about, I would have pegged it as the High Priestess. Would love to hear more of your understanding about the Empress... shows me I have much to learn.
Peace!
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| Diana |
21 Dec 2002 |
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Actually, Khatruman, to me the High Priestess is the one who represents the Mother (capital "M") to me, far more than the Empress.
But this is getting off-topic, so perhaps one day we can open up a thread on the High Priestess (or the Papess, as I call her) to share all our ideas. And then Liliana could join us there, as she is the High Priestess of the forums. ;)
I bathe in Marseilles Tarot lakes and rivers and oceans, so maybe this would explain the differences in our perceptions.
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| Osher |
21 Dec 2002 |
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Thinking about the Empress I realised that I always saw her as fairly simple. She is Mother Earth to me. If the Emperor represents mastery of the human, then she is of nature. They make a loving, kind, couple. People who you can turn to at times of trouble.
As Mother Earth, she is also birth. Her stomach is full, and exposed, she is naked, but not sexual, it is beyond that. Her sister, to my mind, is the High Priestess. Of course, to me her sister is the High Priestess, and both are love with nature.
As a person, this is the person who you can turn to late at night when you need a shoulder to cry on. Suddenly everything seems OK, this person helps a new you emerge. Of course, she could also represets a new start, or even being more inturn with nature. I guess the skill of a tarot master is to be able to see the various elements a card represents to feel which element, or elements, are relevent.
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| temperlyne |
22 Dec 2002 |
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I really welcome this thread on the empress since I'm currently working on my own inpression of her.
I always saw her as a woman who wields a lot of feminin power. She knows her own sensuality and is not ashamed to connect sexuality with maternal feelings.
She to me is Gaia, mother of all life. She gives life and protects it.
The empress is the woman that gives you life and sucurity, were as the HP to me is the woman you will fall in love with without ever getting close to her. You can actually touch the Empress, feel her warm embrace, but the HP keeps her distance and sense of perfection.
Ofcourse as a mother figure, the relationship with her is not always easy as she will have expectations from all her children and demands loyalty. Her loving arms may on occasion suffocate.
The HP asks for you to be intellectually worthy, the empress demand loyalty, but they will both reward you with love, be it courtly or motherly.
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| Silverlotus |
22 Dec 2002 |
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I've always sort of related to the Empress, even as a young girl. I think it is because in her I see many of the qualities I'd like to have myself. She is a Mother (with a capital M), obviously pregnant in the decks I have. But I see her as a Mother in the way she cares for people, animals, etc. I also see her as a powerful woman, ruling in her own right. Perhaps as part of a matrilineal line, with the Emperor coming into his power by marrying her. Why else would she come first in the Majors? The Empress is also a personification of Gaia, the Earth Mother, bring fertility to the Earth and all her subjects. And she is an educated woman, skilled in crafts, statesmanship, science, and anything else she needs to know to rule well. You know, I think the Empress and the Queen of Pentacles are fairly similar. But I could feel that way since I'm drawn to both cards.
Thinking of her in terms of the Wiccan Triple Goddess, the Empress is the Mother. I guess I see the High Priestess as the Maiden, but I don't know which card would be the Crone.
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| allibee |
22 Dec 2002 |
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hehehe, this is getting more and more interesting.
Both you and Diana pair her with either Queen Swords or Queen Pentacles, whereas I see her natural, yet lower caste sister as Queen Cups.They both share the nurturing aspect to a very strong degree.
On reflection of this thread, it could also be said that she has a fourth sister in the Queen Wands, in that they both inspire you to greater things?
Maybe all four are aspects of her?
Just thinking aloud ;)
allibee
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| Maan |
22 Dec 2002 |
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The empress is my special card. (My soul and personality card)
I see here as the mother like most of you. She IS creativity. She creates and nurtures. She can be overly portective.
But she is also the ultimate female. She is sensual and sexual like Temperlyne also notes. She can help you accept your body and enjoy it. In most decks she has the sign of venus with here some where. The roman love goddes:)
The gill tarot has one of the best pictures of here i can think of. There is a beautiful women who's body disapeares/is part of the earth. Gaia:)
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| temperlyne |
22 Dec 2002 |
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I think its really interesting that some of you relate the empress to the queens. That never occured to me! But when I think about it I see the empress as the ultimate female and the queens and even the HP as just different aspects of her. If I were to relate the queens to her, I would say they were her daughters who all four inherited different sides of her.
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| Sulis |
22 Dec 2002 |
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I see the Empress as all woman, all mother and as has been said before as Gaia - Earth mother, Mother Nature. I agree with Maan about the Empress in the Gill Tarot, I think that the way her body becomes the mountain perfectly expresses her nature.
She`s sexual as well and a symbol of fertility and abundance. I also see her as a card which represents the need for patience, the seed has been planted with the Magician and the High Priestess and now we must wait for it to grow.
As a triple Goddess I too see her as the Mother aspect although I tend to see the High Priestess as the Crone; wise, mysterious, the keeper of hidden knowledge.
Love and light
Crystalmynx xx
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| Moongold |
22 Dec 2002 |
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She is number three in the Major Arcana, following the Magican and the High Priestess. The Fool is 0.
It is as though the Empress is the more earthly representation of motherhood, abundance, sexuality, connection with nature. I think the Emperor at 4 has the same significance for the supposed male qualities. I'm not sure that I can look at the Empress in isolation from the other cards altogether.
I actually see the High Priestess as having many of the qualities of femininity as well but she is more the keeper of the unconscious and a certain aspect of spirituality whilst the Empress is more the manifestation of the the conscious - the link with the Earth and the humananity connected with Earth.
I haven't yet seen a Marseilles deck (my next purchase) but in the Shining Tribe Deck, Rachel Pollack also links the Empress (3) with the Shining Woman (21: 2 plus 1 = 3) the card she has remamed from the World in the Shining Tribe tarot. The Shining Woman is the perfect being - a different cultural representation of the Goddess - bringing together female and male qualities as much as we can separate them.
The High Priestess appears more commonly in my readings than the Empress at the moment but I always feel deeply reassured by either of them.
Moongold
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| Scorpion |
22 Dec 2002 |
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Originally posted by allibee
Maybe all four [queens] are aspects of her? Allibee, that's exactly how I feel about the Queens: they each manifest a particular aspect of the Empress as broken down by their suits. So, conversely, I see the Empress as the amalgamation of all that the four Queens stand for. I think she is the Queen of Queens - the ultimate Queen, if you like: ruler of all.
For me, the best representation of the Empress card is in the Ancient Egyptian deck, where she's regal yet sensual, comfortable with her sexuality and voluptuousness and mistress of all she surveys. She has the attributes of all the suits: a staff, a cup, the fruits of the earth and a bird flying around her garden: so for me this reinforces my idea as set out above.
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| allibee |
22 Dec 2002 |
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Yes, a bird plays a role in my design for the Empress, and she is beautifully rubenesque too :)
I feel the Queen Cups sustains the mind, body and spirit for herself and for all around her, whereas the Empress gives birth to what is needed for the mind, body and spirit. The Empress has the formative role, whereas QC, tends to them.
allibee
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| Silverlotus |
22 Dec 2002 |
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I guess I can see the point about relating her to all the Queens. I've never thought about it before, because the Queen of Pentacles is the only Queen I can really understand. Sometimes I think I'm far to Earth. :P When I get to the Empress in this round of study, I will have to pull out the Queens and explore this further. Thanks for the ideas!
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| allibee |
22 Dec 2002 |
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Another interesting note:
Am I right in thinking that so far, it is only women who have posted on this thread?
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| Silverlotus |
22 Dec 2002 |
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Maybe we could get one of the male members to start a thread on the Emperor, and see if any women post. :) The Emperor is my Soul Card, and I do relate well to him. He's another Earthy soul. I think the Empress and the Emperor are a good pair. lol! I guess that's part of the point.
To make this a bit more on topic, does considering the two together give anyone anymore insights on the Empress? Is she half of a whole, or a whole in her own right, or a bit of both. Until reading the first chapter of 78 DW I don't think I would have thought about this. But I sort of see them as a part, kind of like the Magician and the High Priestess.
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| allibee |
22 Dec 2002 |
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hehehe, I think all us ladies would be quite opinionated on that particular man!
Yes, she is of course his partner and equal, and if she were not her archetype may have been titled consort or concubine.
Whilst he rules his kingdom with an iron fist, she rules it with a velvet glove. He ministers to his armies and frontiers, and she ministers to the peoples needs. She is therefore loved while he is admired (at best LOL!).
allibee
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| Alex |
22 Dec 2002 |
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"Mom loves you
Mom will make all your nightmares come true"
We have to be careful when talking about the so-called "mother principle". There are many illusions associated with it.
The Emperess is difficult to evaluate alone, but when compared with the Emperor, things get a bit clearer
On the bright side, fertility, nurturing, unconditional acceptance, protection, sheltering, cuddling etc.
On the dark side, unwillingness to let go of, to let someone grow up and become independent, to "expose" to life; opposing maturity and the process that leads to it. "You'll be always my baby and my baby you will be".
Of course, OPENLY talking about the pair Emperess X Emperor may sound politically incorrect, so I'll shut up. Unfortunately, one cannot say what one thinks anymore, about nearly anything.
Alex.
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| Alex |
22 Dec 2002 |
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The Emperess is the mother.
Originally posted by Moongold
I actually see the High Priestess as having many of the qualities of femininity as well but she is more the keeper of the unconscious and a certain aspect of spirituality whilst the Empress is more the manifestation of the the conscious - the link with the Earth and the humananity connected with Earth.
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| Moongold |
23 Dec 2002 |
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Originally posted by Alex
The Emperess is the mother.
Hi Alex,
I like your avatar and assume it is you? Quite original but nice to see the faces of the people here.
I hadn't actually thought of the High Priestess as a virgin. She seems to be more representative of the power within, the containment of knowledge for which there is no words.
It is easy for me to understand her as a mother as well, a physical as well as spiritual mother. I think the depth of her knowledge would come from experience of all aspects of life.
Sometimes it is too easy for us to separate sexuality from spirituality. Perhaps I am too affected by the experience of a very patriarchal church. Although in the Catholic Church, Mary is both Mother and Virgin? I personally never really believed that teaching of the Church, feeling that its origins were based on social and political motives, not necessarily reality. Other myths also have the same questions around their origins.
Blessings.
Moongold
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| Major Tom |
23 Dec 2002 |
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I also see the Empress as the Universal Mother, just as I see the Emperor as the Universal Father.
I associate the Empress with Venus - she's often associated with the dove or other symbols of Venus. She represents the union between the the polarities of energy and form (or Light and Dark, Yin and Yang) and symbolises the whole creative force of Love.
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| Trogon |
23 Dec 2002 |
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Hi allibee... Love the new avatar! Congrats on hitting the magic 500... ;)
A guy's point of view? Okay... here goes...
When I look at the Empress in my Rider-Waite deck, I think of the Mother I wished I'd had when I was growing up. The loving, nurturing mother who was never cruel, always encouraged me and helped me and comforted me. Though, as others have mentioned, she can become clinging and unwilling to "cut the apron strings", even overly protective of her children - preventing them, perhaps, from fully experiencing life and fully developing into complete adults. She is the nurturer, teacher and comfort to her family.
Contrasting this with the High Priestess, I see her (the H.P.) as the woman you first fall in love with. She is the one who you see in those "special" dreams... ;) She is the keeper of the knowledge which "boys" must learn in order to become "men". In this regard the High Priestess represents the understanding which comes with growing up and learning how to be an adult. Both in a worldly sense and a spiritual sense. Does this make sense?
I see the Empress in a slightly different light in my Röhrig Tarot. In the RWS deck she seems a little more down to earth, while in the Röhrig she appears more haughty, or regal. I still see the Mother in her... but in a sexier manner. She's a little closer to the High Priestess. She's actually a little more difficult for me to pin down, there's an air of mystery about her. Not like the High Priestess where there is hidden knowledge, but rather like there is... well... I don't know exactly... this card (The Empress in the Röhrig Tarot) is one I haven't completely figured out just yet. Much of what is in the RWS Empress is there... but there is something else I haven't been able to put my finger on yet...
Hope this adds more light than confusion... :D
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| allibee |
23 Dec 2002 |
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Thanks peeps, and keep them coming.
originally posted by Major Tom
She represents the union between the the polarities of energy and form (or Light and Dark, Yin and Yang) and symbolises the whole creative force of Love.
..... a phrase that comes to mind from this is: Making it real
originally posted by Trogon
When I look at the Empress in my Rider-Waite deck, I think of the Mother I wished I'd had when I was growing up. The loving, nurturing mother who was never cruel, always encouraged me and helped me and comforted me. Though, as others have mentioned, she can become clinging and unwilling to "cut the apron strings", even overly protective of her children - preventing them, perhaps, from fully experiencing life and fully developing into complete adults. She is the nurturer, teacher and comfort to her family
ooerrrr... sounds too much like me.... maybe I 'll have to rethink my Avatar and residency status!
Thanks for the congrats too ;)
allibee
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| Alex |
23 Dec 2002 |
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Originally posted by Moongold
I like your avatar and assume it is you? Quite original but nice to see the faces of the people here.
Yeah. Sometimes we forgett that behind the msgs are real people and I'm guilty of that as well, so I thought, some "personalization" would help.
Originally posted by Moongold
I hadn't actually thought of the High Priestess as a virgin. She seems to be more representative of the power within, the containment of knowledge for which there is no words.
I DO have problems with the HP, I think "she" represents a feminine "energy" to which the "Maggician" is the masculine counterpart... . Some decks portray "her" as a young woman and others as an older lady. But ultimately "she" represents some "bridge" with the unconscious we can cross back and forth through dreams and immagination.
Originally posted by Moongold
It is easy for me to understand her as a mother as well, a physical as well as spiritual mother. I think the depth of her knowledge would come from experience of all aspects of life. [/b]
I had not thought about it, Moongold. So I got to think on that further.
Originally posted by Moongold
Sometimes it is too easy for us to separate sexuality from spirituality [/b]
It may be but some religions understand where both meet and for that reason they defend celibacy. Not that sexuality is bad or wrong (originally) but high spirituality can be more easily achieved when sexual energy does not find an outlet.
Originally posted by Moongold Perhaps I am too affected by the experience of a very patriarchal church. Although in the Catholic Church, Mary is both Mother and Virgin?. [/b]
She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. Virginity is attached to the concept of "purity" in the Catholic Church. For example, and for the sake of curiosity: originally, the candles that illuminate Virgin Mary's altar inside the church were made of bee (Apis) wax, because bee workers are virgins.
Originally posted by Moongold I personally never really believed that teaching of the Church, feeling that its origins were based on social and political motives, not necessarily reality. Other myths also have the same questions around their origins.
[/b]
The Catholic Church has very little influence in the minds of people in the country where I was born and spent most of my life. We are all Catholics but of a very eclectic nature. I personally don't care much for churches but I wish I had more knowledge of the origin of its myths. Who knows, it's always time to learn.
Alex.
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The The Empress, don't you just love her... thread was originally posted on 21 Dec 2002 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
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