Another Journey - the majors as development of civilization

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

dangerdork	14 Jan 2003
I have SO many comments to add to recent threads about the archetypes of the first half dozen or so of the Majors - so you can look forward (or not) to my blatherings on those threads. But in the mean time, I thought I'd share ANOTHER perspective I'm working out. Bear with me, this is off the cuff and half baked. The Fool's Journey may be a realtively modern invention imposed on the tarot long after its appearance, but I think it's a useful way of examining the Major Arcana or parts thereof. The site posted recently about the roles encountered by a child in the Middle Ages was fascinating. I'm trying to work out, and I haven't seen it done this way, the progression of the Majors as the development of civilization, the rise of Human Society. The Fool : Sentience, Intelligence. The ability of man to recognize his individual existence that sets him apart from the animals. The Magician: Manipulation of the Environment and Tool Making; application of the Intelligence described above. The High Priestess: Language - The ability to communicate our ideas, both of secular knowledge and our recognition of the uniqueness of our spiritual nature. The Empress: Agriculture and The Home. Use of the abilities described above to create a home, to plant crops as a stable source of food and shelter, maintaining a viable future for our offspring. The Emperor: Chief of the Tribe - The ability to band together under the strongest, strength in groups, protectorship, the Hunt. The Hierophant: The Shaman - Rules of the tribe, and the embodiment of the sharing of mystical and spiritual insight. Healing. The Lovers:Emigration - The choice to leave the tribe, and to choose a mate and form family bonds outside of its confines. Interactionn between cultures. The Chariot: Commerce - The beginnings of movement and exchange between cultures... This is as far as I've gotten, any comments?

Thirteen	14 Jan 2003
I'm really liking this. Excellent job--I mean, it really does seem to be working. I would, however, put a slightly different spin on the Chariot.... CHARIOT: War. War with other tribes always comes next as civilization begins to grow. Trade, yes, but that would come with the Lovers, with interaction between the two, communication, and such. Chariot is very much when the civilization decides it's going to immigrate with aggression, colonize, and impose it's will and ways on others--or just get rid of those others. JUSTICE: I think in this regard of progression, Justice, not strength, would be the next card. Instead of wars, you begin to get laws, judges who decide on boarder disputes and things like that. People who balance out differences, instead of letting chariots run over those who disagree. The civilized, beaurcratic method of solving problems rather than the brute force method. HERMIT: Highest order of civilization; examination of the philosophical, moral and scientific--beginning to look into things that the tribal isn't as much concerned with--like "Why are we here?" and "Where did we come from?" Questions of advanced morality, of what is truth. Philosopher/Scientists, Galileos and such, can only have the leisure they need to persue such questions in a civilization that has taken care of all else (agriculture, etc.). Works for me! But you know, I'm not sure it goes past those first ten. After the Wheel of Fortune, the cards move into a different mode--or so it seems to me.

firemaiden	14 Jan 2003
Fantastic, lots of food for thought there! A really wonderful, rich, beautiful idea. I like it much better than the fool's journey which always seems farfetched to me. Lets see, maybe strength could be animal husbandry? Now I have to go back and think upon these 22 cards some more!

firemaiden	14 Jan 2003
-what about the different ages of materials/metalurgy-stone. gold, iron , bronze , etc. (Something for Temperance.) -what about the development of religions -- pantheism (the devil card comes to mind) to monotheism (the World, for example), or the development from a matriarchy, and goddess worship(the moon?) to a patriarchal system (the sun?). What would the stars be? astrology? science? navigation? --The Hanged Man -- discovery of other continents -- traveling to the upside down part of the world (down under!!! HA) I like the chariot for Trade/ commerce better than for war -- the Tower could be war... If the High Priestess is Language, someone else can be Writing. Keep Going!!! P.S. I love your idea about the Fool being Sentience: there is after all some kind of Leap, get it, Leap, to this awareness of being set apart from animalia.

Alex	14 Jan 2003
I'm comfortable up to the Death card, then everything seems to be of another nature... I really really have the feeling that the cards that come posterior to Death portray a journey past this material life. A journey of the spirit. I grew up hearing these stories that when we die, we have to come to terms with our own death. Otherwise our spirit will keep hanging around, bothering other people, haunting houses, unwilling to accept the change ... unhealthy bound to life, that's The Devil. And so it goes... up to the Judgement. This last card is so... biblical... Oh well. I don't know much about the history of these cards. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Works for me! But you know, I'm not sure it goes past those first ten. After the Wheel of Fortune, the cards move into a different mode--or so it seems to me.

Karenwhe	14 Jan 2003
The Tower - looks to me like the period of the First and Second world wars after that much faith (The Star) was needed to rebuild the destruction created by these wars. And they were were quite close together in terms of time.

Teal	15 Jan 2003
The Hermit might represent that time period when there was a decision to print the Bible and put it into more hands, if anyone knows what that time period was called. History hasn't ever been my field. Hermit may represent mankind beginning to search for religious/spiritual answers on his own, rather than being told what was true by those in positions of authority with the church.

Laurel	15 Jan 2003
Dangerdork, I ~really~ like what you've come up with and its got my mind whirling with ideas for other cards down the road. I think Death, for example, would apply extremely well to the Black Plague and the changes/effect plague had on Western civilization and its evolution.

Teal	15 Jan 2003
I just read in one of my books that, originally, Death did refer to the plague. I don't know if that's true or not.

firemaiden	15 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Laurel I think Death, for example, would apply extremely well to the Black Plague and the changes/effect plague had on Western civilization and its evolution. I was thinking about the Black Plague for Death too, and the period of the "Dark Ages".

Keslynn	15 Jan 2003
(semi) medieval historian with a nitpick here. The Middle Ages aka the medieval period should not be called "The Dark Ages." There was still writing and commerce. There were also a lot of people questioning religion, which would seem to fall under our standards of a progressive society. Just trying to clear up a small misconception. I love the medieval period. :) Kes

Thirteen	16 Jan 2003
I think this journey gets problematic if we try to correlate it too closely to REAL history rather than to a general history of a civilization. FIREMAIDEN: TOWER vs. CHARIOT: THE TOWER is often related to the Tower of Babel--a collapse of a civilization from the INSIDE or from unexpected or godlike forces. Nothing in its definition--any of its definitions--has to do with war per se. Catastrophe yes, earthquakes, shakedowns, things going up in flames, even terrorist attacks. But not war--not a real battle between two countries involving battle tactics, weapons and trained soldiers who are there to do nothing but fight and perhaps die in order to decide who gets what. In regards to a time in civilization, I'd put the Tower as being quite late in the lifetime of a civilization--a time where an Empire has become so big and unweildy, possibly so FALSE and corrupt, that the light of truth just brings it crumbling down. Think of Enron--that's the Tower. THE CHARIOT, on the other hand, IS related in definition to battles and victory. What, afterall, is a Chariot for? You don't need an armored car for trade and commerce. A donkey, a basket on the head, a camel will do for that. No. A Chariot is for showing off your generals and warrior kings. For indicating power through force. For riding into war and sending spears and arrows into your enemies while protecting yourself from their spears and arrows. So I stick by my definition. Mind you, the war need not be all one-sided agression. It could also be war of defense, of keeping it safe from outside barbarians who would plunder it and bring it back down.

Moongold	16 Jan 2003
I think there are problems with the way we see history, particularly us Westerners. We often see it through only one lens, but there are other lenses and other dimensions. I think Thirteen was referring to this in her post. History is linear only because we have defined time in the way that we have. It's natural for us humans to do this, particularly Westerners. If you look at the Australian aboriginal rock paintings you will see time represented in themes and experiences. In one way I can see my life as linear because the measurement we have is units of time - minutes, hours, days, years. But psychologically, emotionally and spiritually I would understand it more in themes and experiences. Another way of looking at time is something that I first heard here: wheels within wheels. Yet another image I quite like is that of the patchwork quilt, but I mean quilts like the AIDS quilts - tapestries of human experience I think I would prefer to see the Tarot like that as well. I understand archetypes to be beyond time. I think we can use them to understand things about ourselves and our experiences but I'm a little bit reluctant to use the Tarot archetypes as milestones in history. Dangerdork, I know you suggested the progression of the Majors as being indicative of the development of human civilization and I hope I am not misunderstanding you. You may not have been referring to a linear progression. I defer to Mary K Greer again. In her book Tarot Constellations there is a the YEAR CARD CHART deigned by Twainheart Hill and based on the work of Angeles Arrien. Arrien is a teacher of Tarot in San Francisco and she arrived at this framework by playing with the cards in groupings using numbers. I won't explain it here but it makes interesting reading and there is method and creativity in it. It reinforces for me all the connections between our ways of undertanding the mystical. To cut a long story short, the method assigns a Major to each year in history. The chart in Greer's book goes back to 1880 where the theme card was 17 (Star). This year (2003) the theme card is 5 (Hierophant). I thought you might appreciate the irony of that, Dangerdork, given the recent discussions here. What does the Hierophant mean for us this year? A bridge between the widely differing belief systems? This is my preferred interpretation. A suggestion that the various protagonists in the forthcoming conflict pull back and examine their consciences (very Catholic)? A Hierophant is a revealer of sacred mysteries. Maybe this present image suggests that we stop and open ourselves to the sacred again, suggesting that we've lost sight of it? Thanks to all of you for intitiating such interesting discussions. They certainly keep us away from the TV. Moongold

firemaiden	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Nothing in its definition--any of its definitions--has to do with war per se. Nothing?...Crowley's Tarot Card is subnamed War. But that doesn't matter, I agree, the Tower of Babel and corrosion from within is a much richer analogy, re: Chariot: Actually, if you consider war is one ways in which cultures come into relationship with eachother....war and commerce almost go together.

firemaiden	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn (semi) medieval historian with a nitpick here. The Middle Ages aka the medieval period should not be called "The Dark Ages." There was still writing and commerce. There were also a lot of people questioning religion, which would seem to fall under our standards of a progressive society. Just trying to clear up a small misconception. I love the medieval period. :) Kes HI Kes. I knew someone would say that. I studied 10, 12th, 13th century french literature, we considered this like a mini-renaissance period. There was however a very dark period, wasn't there? I was thinking of much earlier, the time following the fall of the roman empire -- time of barbarian incursions, loss of government structures and protections, loss of literacy, etc.

firemaiden	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen I THE CHARIOT , You don't need an armored car for trade and commerce. A donkey, a basket on the head, a camel will do for that. True....yet, my Dürer Tarot Chariot shows a wagon with a donkey and a merchant.........

juice	16 Jan 2003
You are giving me much mental food to chomp on. my head is going in circles like history. Since the journey through the majors has been described as a figure 8 path and 3 cycles of 7 along with the straight march through all 22, I want to mull this for another day or four. I'm thinking of the plague of the 14 hunderds is a good example of a tower experience in culture. I don't want ot pin that date/decade/ahhh to the card though. There are other such. Maybe plague and famine and volcanoes should be listed somehow under tower. Sometimes the culture experienced these things because of a choice that was made like how and where to live. This one needs to stew a little because half the time the "explosion" is because you put dynamite on the side of the building with the intent remodel. Ohhh. Nazi death camp anyone? The rennaisance; times of Jesus, Budha, Mohammad; beginning of the iron age; industrial revolution; dawn of computer revolution; are Hanged Man to me. Goddess picked the world up, turned it over, and shook a little.

juice	16 Jan 2003
And.... periods of enlightenment may have to be split between the Hermit and Hanged Man. Today I'm thinking of Thomas Edison spending all those hours trying to invent the light bulb and many other things as the hermit. This sounds contradictory to the culture as a whole theme but so much of the change in the world is initiated by so few. So the question might be one of going to seek enlightenment and the other going to analyze and fix the past. So when do cultures as a whole do these 2 things. Sorry if I'm rambling. Or should that be thinking in too much ink er pixels?

IsisUnveiled	16 Jan 2003
Great thread! I am hoping to have the time to actually put some of mine on here.

Thirteen	16 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Nothing?...Crowley's Tarot Card is subnamed War. True enough. I'd forgotten about Crowley who attatches this card to "Mars" and discusses it as "Quarrel, ruin, combat"--as well as escape from prison,distruction and sudden death. But he adds that it is destruction in order to obtain "perfection." Then again, Crowley's definition of the Chariot (in agreement with several others) is: Mars ruling water. And his defintion, like several others, includes triumph & victory as well as "diehard" ruthlessness and lust of destruction. Very warlike. Ussher & Waite define the Chariot, specifically, as "War." I think, as you mentioned, it has the edge over the Tower if we're going to decide on a card emblematic of "war." And I'll certainly conceed that there being no other evident transportation card in the majors that it could stand for commerce. My problem with that definition was that I saw commerce as happening AFTER the stuff arrives, there in the marketplace or BEFORE the stuff arrives, as folk dicker over how much gold they'll send for how much spice--but if you mean trade routes and such, I'll buy that definition. It certainly goes hand-in-hand with War in that civilizations usually a fight over maintaining trade routes or getting one's hands on the producers of goods (be they ancient gold mines or modern oil wells) that cause such wars.

Diana	17 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden re: Chariot: Actually, if you consider war is one ways in which cultures come into relationship with eachother....war and commerce almost go together. Almost? I think you can remove that word, firemaiden, apart from a few exceptions. A really up-to-date Tarot deck could be the Chariot carrying a barrel of petrol, for example. Interesting thread.

firemaiden	17 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana A really up-to-date Tarot deck could be the Chariot carrying a barrel of petrol, for example. Or an oil tanker!!

Karenwhe	17 Jan 2003
If the Chariot is war and commerce .......... this would mean that a good interpretation for modern issues would be tenders/bids. Businesses go to "war" with other businesses to win contracts. Just a thought.

seneris	29 May 2004
I thought I'd 'bump' this up, it sounds really interesting and I was hoping that other people would want to add their comments. I like the idea, but I don't have a clue how it would continue. Hope someone else does!

FlipTarot	05 Jun 2004
Perhaps an issue with connecting Death with the Dark Ages specifically is that this might restrict the journey to Western civilisation? I like the fact that most of it so far is archetypal rather than being restricted to a particular historical grouping. Perhaps it can be associated somehow with waning & rebirth of (any) society? At the risk of preaching (err...sorry!), while the West has its Dark Ages, Asia had some of the greatest civilisations seen on Earth: eg Khmer culture in SEAsia, various empires in India + Sri Lanka etc. And of course the Muslims held onto classical philosophy, mathematics, astronomy etc . PS: I like your further layer on the Fool's journey - the Fool as human society! FlipTarot

The Another Journey - the majors as development of civilization thread was originally posted on 14 Jan 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.