minors, moody or not

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

juice	10 Jan 2003
Moody minors seems to be a broad catagory. Everyone seems to agree that Marsaille minors are pips. And Waite minors are illustrated. Lots of stuff that is classed moddy I think should be split into 2 catagories. Some decks like Voyager and Rohrig have bunches of symbols on the cards. Others may have lots of colors but no or hardly any recognizable symbols. What I'm getting at is that maybe we should referr to the minors as pips, moody, illustrated, or montaged. So many of the pip cards have so much else going on in their deck they could be reclassed as moody. It might just be numbers of cups but each cup may be unique in that deck. Some of the stuff now called moody could in my opinion and should be called montaged for all that detail. Not back till Monday.

temperlyne	10 Jan 2003
does it really matter how you call things? I will not quote Shakespeare but you know what I mean...

Diana	10 Jan 2003
juice: I'm sorry, but I'm a little lost here. What is moddy and what do you mean by moody? Or did you mean the same thing and it's a spelling mistake? And when you say montaged, what do you mean? What's the difference between montaged and moddy/moody? *Diana is confused but would really like to understand.*

allibee	10 Jan 2003
I'm afraid I've lost the plot too, and it seems Juice won't be back until Monday to put us out of our misery! allibee

juice	13 Jan 2003
Every time someone describes a deck, they will include information on the kind of minors it has. Some people can't read with pips. Some hate the little box an illustration seems to stuff you in. There are several decks that are not strictly pips or illustrated that many seems to refer to as moody (earlier mispelling) minors. The Thoth is noted as having moody minors. Some of the older marsaille decks had a strict counting of identical objects. I can't find the deck but I once bought a reproduction of such a deck. It was hard to tell the wands from swords and often you had to count closely to tell the numbers apart. Some of the Marsaille had elaborate illuminations that had nothing to do with meaning of the card but were pretty. It has been suggested in another thread by a pip deck lover that these illuminations can be used in reading just as you would read moody minors. Some of the modern decks approach the middle ground of moody minor from the illustrated end. Voyager does not have a single scene in any card. voyager does have a lot of symbols in almost all of the cards. I wouldn't call the minors in the voayger pip card. Many decks have a lot of symbols specifically related to the meaning in their "pip" cards that are not pips. Osho Zen and T of the Spirit slide further into the moody area. These 2 decks have symbols on the cards that are too meaning related to be mere pips and yet not fully fleshed out enough to be called illustrations. Some Thoth pips have meaning related symbols on the card but most and most of the card for those that have some symbols are pips with a decorative pattern that doesn't have a specific meaning but is upposed to convey a mood. I hope that sentence worked. My reasoning for all this knitpicking language is to facilitate us when talking about decks and discribing decks to each other. If you tell me a deck has illustrated minors then I know that there are pictures to trigger my mental processes. If you tell me a deck has pips then I know there are no distracting pictures to limit or launch my imagination. But if you tell me the minors are moody I have to see scans to get a feel for the deck. The term moody, which seems to be the most accepted term in these forums, is applied to way too broad a set of styles. I only picked the word montage as a single word in stead of a phrase to referr to a collection of symbols that don't quite add up to a scene. Collage might be a better choice. I want ot cut the catagory moody in half and squeeze moody into a narrower meaning down on the less meaning related and more mood conveying end of the spectrum. Then pick another word like, but not limited to, collage or montage for those decks that conveyed so much more than mood with their minors. There will always be overlap in the catagories. Though moody is a good choice often I think it is over used. And now an explanation behind an explanation. Some terminolgy comes in to use out of the natural flow of discussion. Sometimes nature has to be nudged along a little when a word needs narrowing or broadening. This happened recently with the discussion over the meaning of the word memorization. I think it would be handy if moody got the same treatment. P.S. No, the world will not end if no one agrees with me. :)

Lee	13 Jan 2003
Hi, juice -- I think I might disagree about the Osho Zen minors; they look like full illustrations to me. BTW, as the coiner of the term "moody minors," I'm quite flattered to see it referred to as overused. My own little footsteps on the sands of time... :P -- Lee

Keslynn	13 Jan 2003
Why do we need to narrow the term any? After all, you can see sample cards from pretty much any deck you could want somewhere on the internet. Also, from all the more in depth reviews I've read, the reviewer explains what is on the minors in some detail. And for what it's worth, I agree with Lee about the Osho Zen minors. Are we going to need to narrow down "scenic minors" as well? :) Kes

juice	14 Jan 2003
In regard to the Osho Zen, I was trying to point out a range to be found. Compare the queen of clouds, 4 of fire, knight of fire, 3 of rainbows, and 5 of water to their counterparts in other decks. If these are fully illustrated scenes then there is no point to using the term moody either. Why would we need to distinguish between pip and illustrated since there is clearly a gray radiant running the full spectrum in between. You can see scans of only a couple cards on many decks. And people who attempt to describe the decks pretty fully don't use the same words to mean the same things. I conceed that I have not enough support here. Appearantly no one else finds discriptions of cards to often come up short.

Trogon	14 Jan 2003
Hmmm... Guess I got the wrong idea somewhere along the line. I had not realized that the term "moody minors" referred to the technical aspects of the illustrations, the ammount of illustration shown on the cards. I was thinking more along the line of this definition of the word "moody"; Quote: from Dictionary.com moody \Mood"y\, a. [compar. moodier; superl. moodiest.] [as. m[=o] dig courageous.] 1. Subject to varying moods, especially to states of mind which are unamiable or depressed. 2. Hence: Out of humor; peevish; angry; fretful; also, abstracted and pensive; sad; gloomy; melancholy. ``Every peevish, moody malcontent.'' --Rowe. Arouse thee from thy moody dream! --Sir W. Scott. Syn: Gloomy; pensive; sad; fretful; capricious. In otherwords... I thought "moody minors" meant minors which tended towords gloomy illustrations and interpretations. I guess that'll teach me to think. ;)

Jewel	14 Jan 2003
A bit of clarification on the term "moody minors". Once upon I time (a year+ ago) I was looking for a way to describe a set of minors that were not pips, or illustrated but conveyed a mood through their imagery ... at that time Lee offered me the term "moody minors" which I loved and have used ever since. The Thoth and Cosmic Tribe are two examples of moody minors. I hope this clarifies what moody minors were originally defined as. Honestly I do not know what I would call the Voyager to tell you the truth ... overillustraded minors perhaps? ... not trying to take a shot at the deck just too much going on for me there. I also consider the Osho-Zen to be a fully illustrated deck.

Lee	14 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by juice Appearantly no one else finds discriptions of cards to often come up short. Well, if you're not satisfied with descriptions of cards in reviews, why not try writing some reviews yourself? There's always room for more reviews! :) -- Lee

Trogon	15 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel A bit of clarification on the term "moody minors". Once upon I time (a year+ ago) I was looking for a way to describe a set of minors that were not pips, or illustrated but conveyed a mood through their imagery ... at that time Lee offered me the term "moody minors" which I loved and have used ever since. The Thoth and Cosmic Tribe are two examples of moody minors. I hope this clarifies what moody minors were originally defined as. Yes... this clears things up quite a lot for me. It also clears up a few other comments I've seen where the context didn't seem to match up to what i was thinking relative to this phrasing. I do have to comment that the use of the term "moody minor" does seem to me to lend itself to the definition I mentioned above more than to a description of how well illustrated the card is. I think I understand that you are trying describe both the techinical way in which the card is illustrated as well as what the card is portraying. If I am correct, that you were trying to indicate that a given card illustrates a "mood", then don't most illustrated minor arcana portray moods and emotions as well as events? For instance, an illustrated card such as the RWS 4 of Cups certainly shows a certain mood, as does the 5 and 6. The Röhrig protrays these emotions as well, but uses a different style and different symbols. The Thoth, the Victoria Regina, the Cosmic Tribe, The Haindl, as well as such decks as the Tarot of Marseilles, all portray (in one fashion or another) these moods and emotions - is this not the point of art? To elicit these emotions in us? I guess what I'm kind of getting at is that I feel that using the term "moody" to describe a method of illustration is, perhaps, a little misleading. The term has more of an emotional connotation rather than a technical one. It appears to me, from what you've said, that you're more describing a style of art rather than the level of emotion shown. Perhaps, if we are simply trying to describe the level of illustration, we could use such terms as un-illustrated, abstract, fully illustrated, over illustrated (I like that one, Jewel... ;) ), decorated, etc. For instance, I think of the Minors in the Thoth as "decorated pips" - they've gone a little beyond the simplest "pip" cards seen in decks such as the Marseilles, but aren't fully illustrated as the RWS or Röhrig. However... since the A.T. forums are a free (as in freedom, not price) community, you can use whichever term you like. Especially now that it's been clarified... ;) Darned good discussion though... it made me look at several of these decks with an eye to how they're illustrated. :D

Jewel	15 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Trogon I do have to comment that the use of the term "moody minor" does seem to me to lend itself to the definition I mentioned above more than to a description of how well illustrated the card is. I agree that the term could be interpreted in the manner you have described. When I adopted the term I was thinking of the definition of the term moody in the context of "subject to moods; expressive to moods", which in the dictionary appear as a traditionally accepted defintions. Moody does not only stand for depression or gloomy which also appear as traditionally accepted definitions ... some words have more than one definition. I still feel this term works for me, and I always provide deck examples of what I mean by "moody" and usually define what I mean by "moody" when using the term for describing a deck. Quote: Originally posted by Trogon If I am correct, that you were trying to indicate that a given card illustrates a "mood", then don't most illustrated minor arcana portray moods and emotions as well as events? Absolutly ... again when I use the term I indicate the type of deck I am referring to through deck examples. The way I use the term is prefacing that the deck is not fully illustrated and is not pips but that it coveys a mood ... what I call a "moody-minor". Honestly I have seen pips that I do not think covey a mood at all, but are more meaningful in a numerology sense. I understand your argument about the illustrated minors and you are right. However, to me moody-minors are more about the mood itself ... the energy of the mood. I do not expect you to agree, that is just how it is for me. I find moody minors more evocative than illustrated minors ... I am not distracted by the picture. Quote: Originally posted by Trogon I guess what I'm kind of getting at is that I feel that using the term "moody" to describe a method of illustration is, perhaps, a little misleading. The term has more of an emotional connotation rather than a technical one. I do not use the term as a method of illustration but the emotions conveyed by the illustration. i agree it is about emotion that these non-illustrated minors make me feel (which pips don't). Quote: Originally posted by Trogon It appears to me, from what you've said, that you're more describing a style of art rather than the level of emotion shown. Perhaps, if we are simply trying to describe the level of illustration, we could use such terms as un-illustrated, abstract, fully illustrated, over illustrated (I like that one, Jewel... ;) ), decorated, etc. For instance, I think of the Minors in the Thoth as "decorated pips" - they've gone a little beyond the simplest "pip" cards seen in decks such as the Marseilles, but aren't fully illustrated as the RWS or Röhrig. I agree totally regarding descriptions for levels of illustration alone. That is why I characterized the voyager as over-illustrated ... it does not bring forth emotion of any kind in me. As for the Thoth, again it is about our own perceptions of the deck ... I find it more than decorated. It elicits emotion from me through the use of color, symbols, etc. I have only done one formal deck review, but hope to do more. This discussion has been incredibly helpful and I will carefully define the term "moody-minor" when using it in a review. I like the term and will continue to use it. It is important to realize, as Lee pointed out, that reviews are subjective by nature. What I find evocative you may not. As they say you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time ;) ... at least now I know you know what I mean when I use the term moody-minor *LOL*. Thanks for the thread.

juice	16 Jan 2003
Hmmm and more hmmm. I'll have to remember when going back to a deck review to remember that some people using the term moody may be referring to their expressiveness and other might be referring to their level of illustration. I've read so many now that there is no way to remember which ones might have been misread. Thanks ya'll for the discussion.

Lee	16 Jan 2003
Actually, juice, I don't believe the term "moody minor" has ever been used by anyone in a review, although it may be used sometimes by people in posts. In any review I've read, the reviewer will say whether or not the scenes are fully illustrated, and if not, they'll usually describe the degree of illustration. So, honestly, I don't see where the problem is. I hate to say this but I think you're making a geat big mountain over a little moody molehill. :) -- Lee

Jewel	16 Jan 2003
Actually Lee I might have used the term in the review I did here on Aeclectic for the Cosmic Tribe, but as you noted I describe the level of illustration and what I meant by "moody." Since this is not "official" tarot lingo, I would feel a responsibility to explain what I mean when using it to make myself clearer. But like you, I don't think I have seen the term in any other review (because it is not standard tarot lingo). I do however use it quite a bit here on the forums.

Trogon	18 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel I do not use the term as a method of illustration but the emotions conveyed by the illustration. i agree it is about emotion that these non-illustrated minors make me feel (which pips don't). I agree totally regarding descriptions for levels of illustration alone. That is why I characterized the voyager as over-illustrated ... it does not bring forth emotion of any kind in me. As for the Thoth, again it is about our own perceptions of the deck ... I find it more than decorated. It elicits emotion from me through the use of color, symbols, etc. Okay Jewel... I'm more on-board with you now. I kept thinking you were trying to use this as a term to define something technical - a method of or, perhaps, a level of illustration. But that is only part of what you're talking about. You are describing the way the Minors in a given deck portray emotion and how well they do that, correct? Sorry for being so dense... ;) Quote: Originally posted by Jewel As they say you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time ;) ... at least now I know you know what I mean when I use the term moody-minor *LOL*. Thanks for the thread. Ah... but you did please me! It was a fascinating discussion and made me look a little closer at how certain decks portray the meanings and emotions inherent in the Minor Arcana. Thank you very much...

Cerulean	18 Jan 2003
Odd minors--U.S./Japanese My first favorite and first dive into the tarot pool was a deck that would be considered wrong to many, including its moody minors. The Ukiyoe tarot has scenic landscape minors populated with plants, insects and rich background colors, but lacks people. The majors remind one of Japanese poster designs that looked like popular players of the theatres of the day or the stylish costumes of a court member. I have books of Japanese scrolls and poster designs circa 1900 and the Ukiyoe is quite well-done. However the minors are right for me because the design was in keeping with popular Japanese culture of the turn of the 20th century. The minor cards look very much like modified Hana Fuda (Japanese flower card) designs--Hana Fuda is an Asian-decorated gambling game disguised after the Portugese introduced themselves and a 52 card deck into a port city circa 1580. Stuart Kaplan and U.S. Games did a great writeup of the deck, in my opinion. But Osho Zen.. In contrast, when I looked at the Osho Zen, I was very puzzled by its minors. Then I realize it is modern Zen and it is more an international flavor, not really historical Japanese. I don't seem to associate it with anime or colorful Japanese art styles that I know about. Japanese deck with no minors or unillustrated minors. I live with one or two unillustrated minor decks, but am not interested in any more. Japanese deck with illustrated minors...maybe strange and moody Kabbalah Tarot from Sasuga Books...very odd and a Japanese version of the Renaissance style...but it's on back order. See sample: http://artoftarot.com/kab.htm

Jewel	20 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Trogon You are describing the way the Minors in a given deck portray emotion and how well they do that, correct? Absolutly! that is what I use the term for. And, I specifically reserve the use of it when for minors that are not fully illustrated (Thoth, Cosmic Tribe,etc.) Quote: Originally posted by Trogon Ah... but you did please me! It was a fascinating discussion and made me look a little closer at how certain decks portray the meanings and emotions inherent in the Minor Arcana. Thank you very much... I also enjoyed the discussion. Like you I like studying things and discovering new things. I look forward to participating in more discussions such as this one. I believe we have each other, and the other posters to thank :)

The minors, moody or not thread was originally posted on 10 Jan 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.