The Attributes of numbers and their correlatiion to suit elements

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Jan 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Aoife	26 Jan 2003
I hope I'm going to make sense because I have only the barest grasp of the concepts. Rachel Pollack "78 D of W" says, "in some situations the suit and number support each other, in some they conflict, sometimes even producing the opposite of the number's meaning". OK, I follow that....... elements and numbers in interaction. Her example of "the unifying theme of eight is movement. Since fire means movement, wands express this theme very directly. Swords however express conflict.....[in the image on the rws card] movement is retricted". Great, I understand and I can make the correlation between Pentacles [earth] and stability. So am I right that in the 8 of pentacles, earth has a grounding influence over movement, channelling it into disciplined practicality and skill? Then I'm really left flailing in the dark because I can't make the link with cups [water] - [although the example of the 8 of cups is not a good one because there is obvious movement 'away'.] Rachel Pollack talks about inertia in relation to water but what about the stormy seas of troubled emotions? Does water wash away/douse or give stability [like floating on water] - I can see wherein some of the cards confirm/ oppose the number attributes but I don't know why. I struggle to see the correlation between certain cup cards and number attributes e.g. 7 of cups and 'victory'. And I have never really understood the 9 of cups beyond its LWB interpretation..... and how the influence of water transforms "9 - compromises, struggles" into physical contentment, saiety? The progresion from 9 to 10 of pentacles also loses me. It seems to me that 'completion' takes place at 9, and 10 tips over into something else, something more problematic, [although i understand the concept of the 'gate card', the need to go beyond.] While I'm on the subject, in one of Umbrae's 'processes' threads he talks of the importance of determining the seeker's year cycle [i don't know if that's the correct expression]. So for example, if that is eight, would one expect the seeker to be in a cycle of movement? Does that mean the reader is looking for signs of that [or its opposite] in the reading? What for/how do you use this information, Umbrae? I'm lost.... I know I'm not making much sense. And I'm sorry, I've raised a number of different issues..... but please someone help! Many thanks in anticipation..... Eve

Alex	26 Jan 2003
different numerological associations have been proposed. What do numbers really "mean"? What do "year cycles" mean? In Brazil, it's part of the popular culture to associate cycles of 7 years to people and relationships: the seventh year of a marriage is supposed to be the most difficult. Ages of 7, 14, and 21 are considered to be critical. So I don't have many answers, all I know is that here and there the suit associations + number don't give the meanings conveyed by a deck. Seven of Swords is a good example. If "7" is associated with making your choices work, in order to succeed, and the suit of swords is the suite of intelect, thinking function or whatever you wanna call it, why is "seven of swords" usually associated with guile? One can only succeed in the terrain of ideas by means of guile? Anyone who pretends it's easy, is not saying the truth. I guess it takes a time until we find a system we feel confortable with, but the "right" one may not even exist. Alex.

Lee	27 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife Rachel Pollack "78 D of W" says, "in some situations the suit and number support each other, in some they conflict, sometimes even producing the opposite of the number's meaning". Hi, Eve -- In the quote above, I believe what Pollack is referring to is not numbers and elements in general, but as they are illustrated in the Rider-Waite-Smith deck in particular. I don't think you can look at the RWS pictures as being completely logical outgrowths of a pure number-suit scheme. Although it's an interesting exercise to try to figure out the correlations, I think one could make oneself dizzy if one spends too much time on it. -- Lee :)

Jenny-Li	27 Jan 2003
As Lee says, I also thing the 78DW offers a way to relate to the image of the RWS-images, but the numerology-system of that book was hardly invented by Pamela Colman, so I guess it has its flaws. I do see you in your post that you feel a little lost, so instead of just leaving you with that, let me add that the 78 DW is a great book, yet its rules aren't really rules, but only a help for you to relate personally to the cards. If it makes sense to you that is. When I studied that book, I often found myself confused (which may of course also be because I was reading it in English which isn't my language, and that does add to its difficulty), and all things just don't make sense. It is perfectly OK to skip those things. In the end the one reading your cards will always be you. So use the book, not as a set of rules that apply, nothing else to it, but as a guide that helps your enter the symbolism. When you're working with the cards the way you do, I am very sure you will find at one point or another that you can do it all by your self, and that you will find your own systems of reference that perhaps both ms Colman and ms Pollack has never thought about, but will work perfectly for you. Personally I read mostly everything I can get my hands on about tarot, both the brick-like books like the 78DW and the ones some may call superficial, because they ALL add perspective. None of them holds more truth than the others, but they all add perspective, and perspective is what adds to the personall insight and knowledge about the cards, because it allows you to grow both in depth and in "width". Hm. Wonder if THIS makes sense, but I hope you get some confidence to keep up your work with the cards, even though other people's systems may not seem completely consistent at times - they probably aren't...! ;) Good luck with it! Light and love, Jenny :)

Thirteen	28 Jan 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife Then I'm really left flailing in the dark because I can't make the link with cups [water] - [although the example of the 8 of cups is not a good one because there is obvious movement 'away'.] Rachel Pollack talks about inertia in relation to water but what about the stormy seas of troubled emotions? I think to RP, the cups are serenity and depth, deep, quiet lakes rather than stormy seas. The reason she likely sees this is because the liquid in cups rarely goes anywhere--it stays in the bounds of the cup. Also, the meaning of cups often relates to the emotions that swirl around--cups are often the emblem of the nurotic, the drug addict, the person lost in memories and dreams--or psychic powers or deep in love. They go inward--remain, outwardly, inert (think of a teenage girl in love; she could lie on the grass all day, dreaming of her boyfriend, writing in her diary, making up poems...you get the idea. Inert). None of this, however proves you wrong. Rather, it simply indicates the limitations of the book. ALL tarot books have limitations. How not? Thoughts that are written down and published are stuck, fixed. Pollack wrote that book a while back, and maybe she's changed her mind or expanded her thoughts on the concept--maybe, now, she wouldn't say that water was "inertia." Maybe, if she were here on the forum, she would agree with you, explain and expand. Alas, a book can do that. Luckily, we can. Minds exchanging ideas and observations CAN expand, flex, change. Jenny-li has the right idea. Use books as guides, to develop your perceptions, thoughts and imagination. But don't let them rule you--because they, themselves, are by their very nature limited. Quote: I struggle to see the correlation between certain cup cards and number attributes e.g. 7 of cups and 'victory'. And I have never really understood the 9 of cups beyond its LWB interpretation..... and how the influence of water transforms "9 - compromises, struggles" into physical contentment, saiety? 7 is a number that relates to conquering an obstacle. It's something in your way that is preventing you from getting to 8 where there is movement. A roadblock. So: 7 + Swords--the obstacle is that "thief"--the words or ideas sneaking around, interfereing with you, stealing from you--how do you overcome this? You have to be just as sneaky and guarded--you have to steal past him. 7+ Wands--the obstacle is others standing in your way, demanding you capitulate to their way of thinking and doing things--how do you overcome this? Stand your ground. 7+Pentacles--the obstacle is that what you were hoping would come to fruition, hasn't. The tree isn't bearing fruit, the check still isn't in the mail--how do you overcome this? Wait. Be patient. Hold out. 7+Cups--the obstacle is that you have to make a choice, but you're face with several and they all look deceptively good--how do you overcome this? By finding out for sure which ones are real and which are false. 7 is victory only in that you overcome something--it's not easily done--like the Chariot (7) you have to work hard to control those horses, have to direct them, fight them. This is victory that comes with effort, focus and determination. 9 is struggles and compromises (I don't know where you got this from; I'm not sure I'd interpet 9's that way) given what you seek: 9+Swords--struggles arise here because you fear too much that you won't find what you seek--or will find it and not be satisfied. You're lost in your struggle with these fears. You need to terms with them instead. 9+Wands--struggle is that what you seek requires extra effort to get--and you're tired. It's a struggle to remain standing, keep going, to get what you've been after. But don't give up. You're almost there. 9+Pentacles--what you seek can be had if you're willing to compromise and take just what you need to be happy and no more. A little house instead of a huge house, a nice garden instead of sprawling grounds, a vacation near to home instead of abroad. Yes, this is compromise, but it's also the realization that you can be happy and content with less than you orignally wanted. 9+Cups--what you seek can be had if you're willing to compromise--that is, love, family, joy, can be had if you're willing to give and share as well as take from others. Quote: The progresion from 9 to 10 of pentacles also loses me. It seems to me that 'completion' takes place at 9, and 10 tips over into something else, something more problematic Yes indeed. 9 completes, 10 takes beyond. Look at pentacles. 9 is earthly contentment--money, home, the material goods you want for a happy, cozy, comfortable life. 10 is having enough to leave behind a legacy--like money for a hospital ward or a family home which generations to come will enjoy--and you will be remembered for. With 10, you go beyond. See? Does this help?

Moongold	09 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen I think to RP, the cups are serenity and depth, deep, quiet lakes rather than stormy seas. The reason she likely sees this is because the liquid in cups rarely goes anywhere--it stays in the bounds of the cup. Also, the meaning of cups often relates to the emotions that swirl around--cups are often the emblem of the nurotic, the drug addict, the person lost in memories and dreams--or psychic powers or deep in love. They go inward--remain, outwardly, inert...... ( This has certainly changed in Pollack's most recent deck The Shining Tribe She has renamed Cups *Rivers* and subtly changed everything. The cards include much more imagery from world wide mythology now and this in turn provides more material for interpretation. Back to CUPS/RIVERS, 9 Rivers is a beautiful card depicting 9 clay pots, eight of which are shattered, spilling the blue waters of the unconscious everywhere. This image is based on a Qabbalistic myth and represents the fragmentation of human lives and psyches. There is one pot which is repaired/healed, showing that this possible for anyone. I think this is the only image in the Rivers suite that actually has anything like a container for water or other fluid. The other images are rivers and so on. Aoife, you might like to have a look at this deck. It is featured in Pollack's latest book, Forest of Souls. The art is naive but I love it and the symbolism is rich. It is good for spiritual work. The interpretations on the cards are different and very gentle as well. Warm regards, Moongold

firemaiden	09 Feb 2003
Yes, I like what Moongold wrote. RP's perspective and writing seems to have changed quite a lot between the 78 degrees of Wisdom and the Forest of Souls. I think possible, that if she were to write the 78 degrees today, it would be a very different book. p.s. While I find the numerological / elemental explanations in the Book of Thoth enlightening, especially since the Author and the Cards go together...the numerological explanations in 78 degrees seem like pure silliness to me. Especially since we are talking about the Rider-Waite-Smith deck, the first really pictoral cards; much more interesting is the walk inside the pictures. Okay, granted, we have to have some basis on which to stabilize the meanings of the cards, and Waite made his suit to element attributions clear, so perhaps it is not a futile excercise to ground the minor card meanings in number + element; nevertheless the element -to-suit attributions are hardly universal, and when you look at the larger picture, i.e. the historical perspective (thank you jmd, catboxer et all in the Marseilles threads in iconography) it becomes all the vaguer. ..

Aoife	09 Feb 2003
I am so sorry - I had lost track of this thread. Thank you so much for all the comments - I've made a hard copy so that I can take more time to consider them. Mnay thanks Eve

Lee	10 Feb 2003
My understanding is that Waite based the picture on common fortune-telling meanings for the cards, including those of Etteilla and MacGregor Mathers, and, as a subtext, the Golden Dawn meanings, which themselves are a combination of astrological correlations and Qabalistic attributions. -- Lee

Macavity	10 Feb 2003
Hey, I believe that now. :) I guess when I was trying to explain my table of numbers versus elements (rather badly) I concluded that the gist of the "meanings" were some sort of intersection (and interaction) of a numerical attribute with an elemental attribute. What I hadn't perhaps fully appreciated is that the GD numerical attributes were (probably?) derived from the Sephiroth of the tree of life. As an example: Six of swords - Let Sephira Six (Tipheret) "beauty" act on Air "thought" and you get... "Science" (Goes without saying, Eh? ;)) I have to admit to being selective here and GENERALLY being rather unable to think in that style! But I note another Kaballist came up with "Achievement", which seems more easily understood as an... attribute, rather than a noun? I guess all that was needed was to translate all that stuff into an image: I would have suggested a rather worried looking man at this point? Heheh }) But we have a genial RWS lady embarking on a boat journey... Macavity (proving that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing? :D)

DesertHowler	07 Oct 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife I hope I'm going to make sense because I have only the barest grasp of the concepts. I'm lost.... I know I'm not making much sense. And I'm sorry, I've raised a number of different issues..... but please someone help! Many thanks in anticipation..... Eve I am just beginning the study of the RWS deck myself and find much confusing. I am reading Waite's original book. My understanding is the Minor Cards are purely fortune telling. The pictures attempt to illustrate some part of the divination scenario but not necessarily all. He feels there is no organization. Some meanings are jumbled and contradictory. He says there is no correlation that he can find, such as is found in the Major Arcana. I am going with what the pictures tell me and then filling in with the books as I can. I hope this helps you. DH

The The Attributes of numbers and their correlatiion to suit elements thread was originally posted on 26 Jan 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.