Eight of Swords - comparisons

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	08 Feb 2003
HI, I would like to start a comparative discussion of symbolic elements in the 8 of swords. I have been comparing three related decks: the RWS, the Spiral and the Secret, and find this evolution of elements interesting: Rider Waite Smith: woman blindfold puddles of water like little lagoons. surrounded by swords hands bound feet free sinuous patterns in the mud castle high in background loose mummy wrapping red/orange dress and shoes Spiral: all of the previous elements, plus sinking sun, beach at very low tide -- more apparently sacred place -- it looks like the Mont St. Michel in the background more elaborate mummy wrapping, and tighter Tarocchi degli Segreti - Secret Tarots: all of the elements above: plus more desolation more clearly mud sun is already set, clouds (or is it dawn) crouching (or squatting) position partial nakedness ratty hair trying to cover nakedness torn dress one of the swords is very alarmingly thrust in the mud before her, suggesting to me an almost brutal macho threat. castle is so high above, that is is completeley out of sight = not even on the card... (but you know it is there...high high high above...out of reach) I await your always brilliant commentary, comparisons to other decks, insightful contributions, and comic relief with impatience!

Osher	08 Feb 2003
In the Secret tarot the girl is not blindfolded....! :)

firemaiden	08 Feb 2003
HI Happiness, thank you! right, she is not blindfolded. I wonder why. It certainly makes her face more expressive, she looks wan and forlorn...

jema	03 May 2003
8 of swords was my card today - and one day last week also. so i took out a lot of decks and looked a bit at each of them. photo here: http://w1.910.telia.com/~u91024038/maj/8sword.jpg and i am quite amazed! now i didn't make any kind of effort to pick out decks that are "special" or unusual in any way, i just picked those close at hand. And that image of the tied up and blind-folded girl is just there in 2 of the cards. the Rider-Waite-Smith and in the Hudes. Just look at that diversity! here are some small notes from my journal (in case anyone else out there is as curious as i am) *The Transformational tarot - a young boy is hiding under a window, inside a green demon looking mad and a woman looking scared, the boy is scared too and immobile. paralysed by fear. "there are choices to be made" *Hudes + Rider Waite has the same woman, bound and blind-folded and swords nearby, the hudes only show it more clear just how little effort it wold take to free herself. i am not sure i really like this card though. it is vague and it is just not giving me any added insights, perhaps i have seen it too many times. *I am one tarot names this card "8 curved blade" and show os swirling blades and pretty patterns like a portal opening up to... a brick wall. or maybe, just maybe - we are coming from the brick-wall and walking out of the card through the portal... "overanalyzing" and i am so good at that;) *motherpeace, a woman is trapped within walls of solid bricks, she is attacking them with a daggers. on a perch sits two ravens, watching her, they are the ones who get the whole picture. i like the interpreation here that the wall is a figment of ones imagination and crushing swords against will only appear like you are doing something, perhaps you chose the wall because the world outside is too wast and scary... *Ancestral path shows us a little geisha girl, trapped by conventions and rituals. her home is her prison and her role is to please. outside a beautiful landscape in which she has no part, she is just an object. *Roots of Asia. oh this is such a great 8 of swords, a person sitting in lotus position, swords stuck in the ground behind him, on his head an owl (compare the ravens at the motherpeace cards - the only ones who saw the truth of the wall), the person is covering his/her eyes with the hands, refusing to take in any more. yet again, trapped by our own mind.

Diana	03 May 2003
I'll give everyone a nice well-deserved break and skip this one, firemaiden. But I will be reading everyone's comments with great interest......... (If anyone would like to give their opinions as to WHY the 8 of Swords has a picture like the ones described, I would read this thread with even more than just interest. I mean, what is the REASON for this tradition? Why were these instructions given to Ms. Smith when she painted the original pictures?)

galadrial	03 May 2003
Here are a some takes on the card that I've found helpful. Mary K. Greer and Angeles Arrien take an astrological approach; Arrien: "This is Jupiter in Gemini: the desire for expansion (Jupiter) concerning any duality, opposition or paradox (Gemini). Desire not to get into a fixed perspective; therefore, the tendency for non-decision (Gemini)." And Greer: "Jupiter in Gemini. Feeling fenced in. Restrictions. Too many ideas with no direction. Lack of persistence. Paranoia. Blocked energy or creativity. Bound by your own mental obstructions. Waiting to be rescued. Feeling vulnerable and isolated." And Janina Renee with a geometrical + Swords as confict approach: "The solidity and stability symbolized by the number eight (the balanced arrangement of two squares) can represent blockage and inability to move. When in the realm of conflict that the Swords cards represent, this can denote paralysis and indecision as a result of trying to sort out too many competing issues." I like the "Book of Chaos" deck's depicton of this card. The woman is not bound at all and all the swords are behind her. She is glancing dubiously over her shoulder at them. Her arms are crossed over her chest and her belly is distended. A black cloud is just beyound the swords, but covers a very small area; just her field of vision, since she has turned her back to the scene. If she turned all the way around and faced the swords, she would see that there were clear skies just past her precise location. Orryelle Defenestrate's LWB states: "Blindness, blocked senses-self imposed shutters, refusal to acknowledge situation, unwillingness to face external reality, inner turmoil (dragon in belly), emotional congestion." I find it interesting that he depicts the first line of defense for a mind in turmoil as the body itself. The "holding the world at bay" crossed arms and belly full of unaknowledged and unsorted emotions are her first and most potent barrier.

Rusty Neon	03 May 2003
Hi firemaiden ... This is off-topic but there is one 8 of Swords card in your picture which I can't figure out which deck it's from ... the card in the bottom row of the picture, 3rd from the left, ... a woman dressed in red, with the swords pointed at her, with card title 8 of Swords - Release. Could you please tell me which deck that's from? (Glastonbury tarot?) Thanks!

jema	03 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon Hi firemaiden ... This is off-topic but there is one 8 of Swords card in your picture which I can't figure out which deck it's from ... the card in the bottom row of the picture, 3rd from the left, ... a woman dressed in red, with the swords pointed at her, with card title 8 of Swords - Release. Could you please tell me which deck that's from? (Glastonbury tarot?) Thanks! Hmm, i guess it is my photo you wonder about? And you are right, that is the Glastonbury:) in that card we see a totally different approach to the 8 of swords, here the woman is almost blasting away the swords with the power of her Will. Since i see the 8 swords as a card of being locked in a feeling of helplessness i see this card as a clue - how we can SOLVE the problem in the card. it is in a way showing the solution but not the problem. often when we talk about this card we talk about how the girl in the Wait deck is not really trapped at all - it is all in her mind - and that is just IT! the perception, or feeling of being trapped and helpless is just as valid as actually being helpless. and i ramble a lot today, i know... i'll stop now with this: the decks on that photo are: Top row: Hudes, Thoth, Roots of Asia, Transformational, Motherpeace+Rider Waite, I am one last row: Daughters of the moon, Ancestral path, Glastonbury, Gill, Spirit and thanks for blowing life into this old and dead thread today:)

Umbrae	03 May 2003
In my notes, on the number eight (spelled 8) I find a curious note near the bottom after universal harmony and all the lovely stuff that 8 (as a digit, eight) signifies that states, “movement and a changing of direction.” Now Swords signifies the world of thought, ideas…thinking. Thought (too much or lack thereof) is the basis for all the trouble in this world. Jealousy, indifference, hatred – prejudice…they are all the results of justification, erroneous conclusions, fallacious syllogisms… Sometimes we get stuck in our thinking or thought process – we create a world in which we are our own victims… So here we are back at the number ate (rhymes with fate)…our life is rosy as a posy, we are going along in universal harmony…and things are supposed to move on…things are supposed to change…but we don’t want them to…we want to hold onto what was…to live in the past…(Mothers always want their children to remain young, and not grow old and face the world as the mothers see it to be). So the person has wrapped themselves in a mummifying cloak of denial, hoodwinked themselves so as to not see the truth, placed themselves in apart from that which is good (house in the background) – steadfast in their belief that the tide is changing with or without them. If they remove the hoodwink and the robes…they will see that the swords that surround them are but an illusion…

Moongold	03 May 2003
Tarot of the Old Path shows a slim, almost ethereal man or woman looking away from us but with head down, surroundered by eight swords stuck in the ground. There is no blindfold but one gets the sense of someone immobilised by thought or non-thought. A similar message to RWS. Shining Tribe uses a completely different symbolism, wherein Swords become Birds. A woman sits before the volcano of her own rage whilst birds circle above. The woman cannot simply become a bird. She has to pass through the vocano of her own anger before she can be liberated. This card is about discovering one's own truth in order to be free. Tarot of the Sephiroth is again completely different but the theme is communication. Two scimitars and two swords are interwoven with 4 daggers to form a central cross. The card has a Qabalistic meaning regarding strategy and organised communication. It is located in the ssphere of Hod on the Tree of Life. Hod provides the factors of analysis and communication. The RWS, Old Path and RWS rpresent the fact that we have to take responsibility for our own thoughts and for communicating what we need to communicate. The Sephiroth simply says that communication has to occur and assumes it will. No humans here, which takes away some of the angst. Moongold

jema	03 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold [b] Shining Tribe uses a completely different symbolism, wherein Swords become Birds. A woman sits before the volcano of her own rage whilst birds circle above. The woman cannot simply become a bird. She has to pass through the vocano of her own anger before she can be liberated. This card is about discovering one's own truth in order to be free. Moongold Oooooh, i must get this deck! i so like this - that she has work to do. it is not as simple as just open ones eyes and the bonds will be gone and we will be free, we have to earn that freedom by facing the shadows.

Moongold	03 May 2003
Greetings Jema, This is a BEAUTIFUL deck with completely fresh symbolism. Have you read Pollack's Forest of Souls?. She uses this deck to illustrate meaning a lot in the book. Nice to meet you here again, sister librarian :) Moongold

lunalafey	03 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jema 8 of swords *I am one tarot names this card "8 curved blade" and show os swirling blades and pretty patterns like a portal opening up to... a brick wall. to me it looks like cage-wire... *Legends, here is Guenevere tied to the stake, actually she is shakled and chained, hands & feet. A holy man in a black robe holds her arm and reads from a (holy) book. It looks to be early evening, there is no greenery, just leafless shrubs. There is a crowed behind her, one man in red, upon a horse, points off into the distance(>) In the background, four horsemen are coming off the hill in a hurry....must be Sir Lancelot coming to the rescue.

firemaiden	04 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon Hi firemaiden ... This is off-topic but there is one 8 of Swords card in your picture You confused me there, Rusty Neon! It was not I, but jema, who posted the picture. I hadn't seen the picture either, so thank you for confusing me so that I could find it! Thank you Jema for reviving this thread!! and for your tremendous burst of energy is giving us so many cards to compare! That was my original hope, back in February!!! ahem, although, sob, how would I know, it has been so long, I competely forgot I ever posted this thread! I particulary like what Umbrae wrote about the "ate" of swords. It reminds me of that feeling of life paralysis where it feels impossible to do anything at all, because the inertia is a huge ball of yarn that refuses to get rolling. It takes just the first little action to start unwinding the whole ball. I really love this piece you wrote Umbrae, it is powerful and poetic. The swords but an illusion. Perhaps they are reflections of light on the wet sand? and will melt into water as soon as they are looked at squarely on? I will remember that, it gives great hope. Diana dear, give me your hand....good....now come back here.... Have a seat. Comfy? Need tea? Okay, now, take a deep breath. ...Gooooood. Now, would you please kindly reveal to those us, what the meaning was supposed to have been before this design was dictated to Ms. Smith, and why it ought not to have been so?

jmd	04 May 2003
I have yet to be convinced that Pamela Colman-Smith was given specific directions for the pips, other than having a look at the Sola-Busca plates at the time in the British Museum, Golden Dawn materials, and comments by Papus and maybe a few others. It seems she really tried to somehow incorporate various strands, and she was probably given far greater free reign and creative indulgence in the pips than we may presume. The 'tradition' had, given we're considering this card, eight swords. As long as these were included, and the images weren't wild, I suspect they would have been acceptable to Waite. Still, the questions asked are important - and would certainly like to read other views and possibilities.

Diana	04 May 2003
(this post is edited) I would get too off-topic here if I replied to you firemaiden. But I just want to say that I never said this card shouldn't be depicted like this. I was just wondering if anyone had asked themselves why. But this is going off-topic and I apologise for having brought up the subject here on this wonderful thread.

jema	04 May 2003
hmm, i think it is still intersting. and is it really off-topic? the topic is the 8 of swords from many different decks and we already seen a huge varity - yet a lot of us is so used to that same old image of the tied up girl so it is perfectly valid to ask ourselves why it is so. Just what is it in the 8 of swords that made Coleman come up with that image? jmd mentioned the sources she might have had when she painted the card, i haven't seen those sources myself so i can't really form an opinion about them. it would be fun to see other 8 of swords from earlier decks though. oh and moongold, i did read the Forest of Souls and lusted after the shining tribe, but then that deck is just too expensive so i put it out of my mind - but now you made me add it to my wishlist again:) i tend to like decks with rather "raw" art, motherpeace is a splendid deck in my opinion and i think the artwork is similar in those two decks.

The Eight of Swords - comparisons thread was originally posted on 08 Feb 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.