Majors - XI to XXI [11 - 21]

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Aoife	09 Feb 2003
I'll apologise in advance because I'm struggling to express my questions. I presume I'm right in assuming that to gain an understanding of a minor card - e.g. #5 - it is important/useful to explore the linkage to major card #5 - Hierophant. Should I also be looking at linkages to other numerically linked major cards [i.e. multiples of the number] - in this case #5 - X [10] Wheel, XV [15] Devil and XX [20] Judgement? If so, what about the indivisible numbers above X [10] - Justice, Death, Star and Sun? Eve

Alex	09 Feb 2003
I think some people look at the shadow card. Like VI-The lovers and XV-The Devil. The lovers = 6 = 1+5 or else, 15. People who deal with numerology like simple additions. Not that I know of, multiplications. Alex.

Thirteen	09 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife I presume I'm right in assuming that to gain an understanding of a minor card - e.g. #5 - it is important/useful to explore the linkage to major card #5 - Hierophant. Should I also be looking at linkages to other numerically linked major cards [i.e. multiples of the number] - in this case #5 - X [10] Wheel, XV [15] Devil and XX [20] Judgement? Don't go overboard--not all multiples of 5 can relate to the "5's" in the minors. Alex has one way to go. Here's another: It's not uncommon to think of the first ten cards as the "Earthly" realm and the upper ten as the "spiritual" realm--with 0 (The Fool) and 21 (The World) as the bookends. Thus, relating to the minors would go: 11 for 1's, 12 for 2's, etc. So let's see if this works: 5/Hierophant & 15/Devil for 5's. Hm. Works for me. Consider 5/Pentacles. The Devil is all about possessions, loss of possessions making you feel berift , etc. Let's try it with something else.... 7/Chariot & 17/Star for 7's. Try, 7 of Cups...yep. Works. Star is all about visions of the future, and 7 cups is about such visions..... How about a hard one. 1/Magicia & 11/Justice for Aces. Ace of wands. If we think of Justice as finding a balance, like the center of the scales, focus like the Magican is focus? Just another way to see the connection between the cards.

Minos	10 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife I presume I'm right in assuming that to gain an understanding of a minor card - e.g. #5 - it is important/useful to explore the linkage to major card #5 - Hierophant. I've only just heard of this system on this board. I don't like it one bit. Atu X isn't like any of the 10's. The one deals with change, the others with stability. It has more to do with the 2 of Disks. The 2 of Cups is more like Atu VI than Atu II. I could go on, but that's my basic point. The sequence and meaning of the Minor Arcana proceed according to numerology. But the sequence and meaning of the Major Arcana is determined by a very different kind of process. There are links between the Major and Minor Arcana, but they're much more subtle than numerology can account for.

Aoife	10 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minos The sequence and meaning of the Minor Arcana proceed according to numerology. But the sequence and meaning of the Major Arcana is determined by a very different kind of process. There are links between the Major and Minor Arcana, but they're much more subtle than numerology can account for. Arghhh!!!.... Now I'm completely lost! OK, I'll admit I've been trying to avoid having to try to learn the Qabalah - but I think, implicit in what you're saying is that there's no real alternative. Please tell me I'm right - or if not, tell me what I need to learn. Pleeease!! Eve

Minos	10 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aoife OK, I'll admit I've been trying to avoid having to try to learn the Qabalah - but I think, implicit in what you're saying is that there's no real alternative. Please tell me I'm right - or if not, tell me what I need to learn. Pleeease!! That certainly is one way to do it - refer the small cards to the ten spheres on the Tree of Life, and the Trumps to the 22 paths joining them. In that model, the Lovers would be the path between Binah (3) and Tiphareth (6). So it would be the link between all the ideas expressed in the four threes and all the ideas expressed in the four sixes. But I don't think that's the only way, by far. Another method might go something like this: Separate out all of the pips and one of the trumps. Put the trump in the middle of your spreadcloth/floor/table/whatever. Then play around with the small cards; arrange them according to which ones are most like the trump and which ones are least like it. For the ones that are similar, figure out how and in what respects they are similar; maybe they transcend the trump, or maybe express only a part of it. Make up stories about the cards. Journal it. Wash, rinse, repeat. :) (And BTW, that's the process at its most elaborate; it's fine to simplify or abbreviate).

Macavity	10 Feb 2003
For no other reason than it appeared to be in the GENERAL area of interest of some of the regular contributers to these threads, here's another way of classifying Majors: The Trumps and the Three Worlds Possible assistance in matching keywords between majors/minors etc. Me? I mostly just print such things out and put 'em in a folder! :D

Thirteen	11 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Minos I've only just heard of this system on this board. I don't like it one bit. As Aoife points out--and you yourself note-- this "system" is, on the one hand, Qabalahistic. Wang discusses such connections quite clearly and completely and it's hardly a "system" so far as his very indepth analysis is concerned. Now Sylvia Abraham, in a quick and easy book, does make these connections into a system. You, who heard of this system only here and now, may object to it, but I've used her system to teach tarot on several occassions (I use a modified version of it in the basics I posted and I have no regrets or shame about that). Why? Because every time I use it I see eyes light up, and I hear "AH-HA's!" and rank beginners who have been stymed and frustrated, sometimes for years, come up in tears to tell me that they finally "Get it"--they start to see HOW to make connections between the cards--and now can move beyond just trying to memorize them. You say the connections aren't there. You're wrong. They are. Just because you see a strong similarity between Lovers & 2/Cups, doesn't mean that there is none between HPS and 2/Cups. It especially doesn't mean that there isn't a connections between all the "2". You make connections between cards sound exclusive. Lovers is like 2/Cups, so HPS CAN'T be like 2/Cups. Nonsence! A connection can be made between the symbolism/meaning of the HPS and the 2/Cups. It doesn't erase similarities between 2/Cups & Lovers, any more than 2/Cups & Lovers erases similarites between 2/Cups & the HPS. And if the HPS' similarity in meaning to the 2's can be used to remember meanings and begin to understand connections between the cards...Ah! Is the system simplistic? Sure. But from that simplicity, beginners go onto complexities in leaps and bounds. I've had students who were reading the cards in a month's time, and within six months had left the simplicity behind to go into all kinds of sophisticated subtilities, numberology included. Does it work for everyone? Of course not (what method does?) but for some rank beginners, it's sheer magic. You don't like it at all, and that's your perogative. Here's what I don't like: Folk who are NOT rank beginners dismissing a "system" out of hand. Some people can dive right into the deep end and take to the water like a fish. Others need to enter the water step by step, float in the shallows, and use "systems" to help them learn to swim correctly. There's no good reason to snootily inform Aoife that the number connections between major and minor do not exist. Even if you have a basis for such a blanket statement (and I don't think you do), it's really obnoxious to take away a beginner's life preserver just because you learned to swim without one. Wash, rinse, repeat may have worked for you. But no method works for everyone. If Aoife's on the right track for Aoife, that's all that matters.

Minos	11 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen it's really obnoxious to take away a beginner's life preserver just because you learned to swim without one. No one's taking anything away here. We're having a calm discussion among intelligent people. Quote: Wash, rinse, repeat may have worked for you. But no method works for everyone. That is why, in my second post, I referred to Qabalistic correspondences as "one way to do it", and the journaling approach as "another method" that "might go something like this". Quote: If Aoife's on the right track for Aoife, that's all that matters. As a matter of fact, the thread started because Eve very cogently pointed out a problem in the numerology method. Had she been shouting hosannahs from the rooftops about it, I probably wouldn't have said anything.

Alex	11 Feb 2003
from "How to Read Tarot Spreads", by Sylvia Abraham. Often I see the "connection", sometimes not. The problem is, it's not like science where the more restrictive your hypothesis is, the more it explains. It's the ability to make associations that pays off when you read the Tarot. Anyway, my two cents here, remembering, it's about making associations, not attributing meanings. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Minos I've only just heard of this system on this board.

The Majors - XI to XXI [11 - 21] thread was originally posted on 09 Feb 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.