Plagiarism

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Alex	14 Feb 2003
I have recently come across a web page on the Internet that has a long article exploring the symbolism of a MA card. As I read through the article, which is copyrighted, I had a clear sensation that I'd read those words before. So I went to my Tarot journal and found the very same text in a message written by a subscriber of this forum. The message is not only an almost identical reproduction of that text, but it makes absolutely no mention to the fact that a source had been consulted. The reason why I'm opening this thread, which may appear a bit off-topic, is to call people's attention for the need to cite sources when sources deserve a citation. That is particularly important when the text has been copied and pasted into the body of the message, for obvious reasons. I understand that nowadays it is very easy to copy texts from electronic sources, and that many of us perhaps quote portions of written material into our personal journals, reference files etc, for posterior reference. That in itself it does not qualify as plagiarism. However, when we copy large portions of text and paste it somewhere as if we had written it, we are stepping A BIT OFF the line. If a citation is not possible, simply mentioning that the text has been copied from "somewhere" is still a bit more honest than making the text sound like it came from us. We all share a common interest here, and the likelihood that we will come across the same Web Pages is very high. The likelihood that the authors of web articles on the Tarot will enter this forum as subscribers is also high. It would be good if we all could make an attempt to play by the rules when it comes to plagiarim, for Tarot readers don't need one more reason to be discriminated against... Regards Alex.

jmd	14 Feb 2003
Alex, I agree with what you are saying - and trust that the converse is also true, ie, that others are not copying our own work without acknowledgement. I personally would like to know which page and website you are referring to.

Diana	14 Feb 2003
What is a MA card? I must say, in my personal experience, that in my Tarot note-books there are scribbles all over the place - some things I've jotted down ages and ages ago - sentences, sometimes paragraphs, or turns of phrases. I don't note down all the references - I never planned to join a forum when I started studying Tarot. Some of the things, I wouldn't remember where on earth they came from - internet, books, articles. Or even whether they come from my head or inspired from something. So when I write stuff here, sometimes, I refer to my notes. Some of them are my own personal notes, some aren't. But there are sure to be at times some sentences that come from some source or other. I suspect this is the case with many people. But indeed, where possible, it would be better to cite one's sources. If one can.

jmd	14 Feb 2003
I had presumed that 'MA card' was an abbreviation for 'Major Arcana card'... and points well taken, Diana :)

patter	14 Feb 2003
Preferably you should note the source in the journal too -- or at least, when repeating them follow it with [source unknown]?

Alex	14 Feb 2003
Yes, that's what I meant. I prefer not to post the site here because anyone can find the post I'm refering to with a simple search. There's no reason to expose the person's name to the forum, but I wanted to call attention for the fact so we can avoid it in the future. Something similar happened to me a few years ago when I was writting a series of articles about child abuse. I sent a message to an e-mail list on the subject and one of the subscribers recognized a small paragraph as his. It was embarassing, I'll tell ya. I used to copy all kinds of interesting ideas in Word file and mix with my own reflections, so after a while I lost track of who had written what. The converse also happened with an article I had very recently published, it showed up in an e-mail list as if it had been written by someone else. An almost entire article. Print the source texts on paper and file them with a reference note, never, never copy and paste electronic text on subjects you are publishing, or posting publicly. That's my advice. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by jmd I had presumed that 'MA card' was an abbreviation for 'Major Arcana card'...

Laurel	14 Feb 2003
I think this was a very good topic to bring up, especially in such a professional manner. *nods* I've made similar mistakes before, and had it done unto me. Citing sources is a very good thing, though. We can all work on self-moderating that. ~LAS

Alex	15 Feb 2003
The source below has very straightforward directions on how to cite FTP, Telnet and the World Wide Web (WWW) sources, as well as e-mail messages, how to legally forward messages to others etc. http://www.unn.ac.uk/central/isd/cite/elec.htm I also recommend the Think Quest page "Citations Copyright, Trademarks, and Registration: Acting Responsibly in Webspace" http://www.thinkquest.org/resources/citation_page.html I'm used to citations and I do it all the time in my work but even for me the boundaries in the web space are fuzzy. It's a relatively new environemnt and it's confusing to figure what kinds of rules apply. For citations in general, there are hundreds of web sites. One that is simple and informative is at http://www.unn.ac.uk/central/isd/cite/ Again, a simple mention that "this came from somewhere else" is better than no mention at all, but the ones who are considering to publish articles in the future, be that on the WWW or printed media, that won't do it, you need the author's name and source, or else you can end up in good trouble. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by patter Preferably you should note the source in the journal too -- or at least, when repeating them follow it with [source unknown] ?

Diana	15 Feb 2003
If one plans to publish, one must definitely not plagiarise. However, my Tarot note-books are, as I said, full of scribbles, notes on the top, bottom, right, left, up-side-down and inside-out. I'm not going to spend hours noting down references of web-sites, books, authors or what-not when I copy down a sentence that I like. Sometimes people send me stuff, and for all I know, they have copied those things from somewhere. I want my Tarot studies to be fun. I'm not going to turn them into some kind of professional, and boring exercice. :( Geez, when I go to all those links that Alex provided, I wonder why I ever left my little anarchist community where I lived for a while in my youth. I wonder if they'll take me back. By the way: if I ever quote an Aeclectic member - it's just 'cos I found what you said inspiring enough to put in my Tarot journal, and may not have written down who said it. And anyone is quite welcome to quote me without putting my name in brackets, by the way. You know, once you adopt an idea, it kind of belongs to you too. Every time I quote somewhere "I have a dream....", I'm not going to put in brackets "Martin Luther King - pastor and civil rights activist".

Faerie Lin	15 Feb 2003
Hi Diana! Little snipets or little phrases are bound to be apart of more than one person's "tarot talk" or everyday talk... "I have a dream" about lots of stuff. I THINK Alex is talking about bigger stuff, like whole pharagraphs that are word for word --- or even (dare I say it) whole articles .

Alex	15 Feb 2003
Diana, it's really not about your Tarot Journal. Faerie Lin's reply is what I meant to say to begin with. I'm talikng about half an article copied and pasted with no citation. I would expect you to enforce rather than dismiss the need for citations, once you are moderating this forum. I understand that people don't always pay attention to it, but it can be a pretty embarassing situation, to receive the article's author e-mail saying "by the way you have copied and pasted part of my article without making a proper citation". Sometimes it's just that we forgett to include the citation; but yet, forgetting that a law exists does not make the violation of that law any better. It''s best if people make themselves aware, and make themselves aware, and are reminded over and over, that a rule exists and that not following it can get them in trouble. So they will remember the next time. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Diana However, my Tarot note-books are, as I said, full of scribbles, notes on the top, bottom, right, left, up-side-down and inside-out. I'm not going to spend hours noting down references of web-sites, books, authors or what-not when I copy down a sentence that I like. Sometimes people send me stuff, and for all I know, they have copied those things from somewhere.

Karenwhe	15 Feb 2003
I find this as a very interesting post and I would like to add my views in a balanced way. Alex is definitely right, there is a problem and with the internet the problems are becoming bigger. The Universities spend money on software to check if the essays of students are plagiarized from the internet and other sources, it has gone far in the era of the internet. Before I go into any details, I must say that I was wondering if the owner of the web site may not be the same subscriber here on Aeclectic. With all the nick names here how do you know that it is not the same person who wrote on Aeclectic that owns that web site or wrote that article? However lets assume that they are not. A person that publishes in an opened forum is very well aware of the probability that someone will take and plagiarize their writing. They should copy right the article if they wish to do that (if they wish to retain rights to the text/concept/idea). I always write in forums my ideas with full knowledge that they can be “stolen” and even used one day in a book (spreads, concepts or whatever). If I wanted to protect my idea, concept or whatever I would write at the end of the article that is this article is copy righted. I keep this in mind while I write on the web or forums. I am lucky my English grammar sucks only an idiot would copy my writing word for word… he he he he Everyone plagiarizes these day, the trick is to regurgitate well enough to eliminate all evidence of plagiarizing ….. he he he he ……….. just kidding. But that is what a lot of articles writers do and I know plenty of writes, they just don’t come up with new ideas. They regurgitate and re-write from other sources – is it right or wrong???? ….. I am not the judge nor the jury, it am stating just an existing fact of life. In my opinion we should try to maintain the origins or materials that come to our hands as we may use them one day and it is the right thing to give credit to the original writer. I copy a lot of articles from the web into word files, I also copy into the doc file the URL where I got it from. This also helps me to post URLs for other people to read the resources. If I get material without knowing the origin, I never bring it up in any of my writings, because: a) I have no clue who wrote it b) I am not sure of the accuracy in some cases as I can’t check or trace the source of the material. It is good to keep ethical, I don’t do to others what I don’t like done to myself, but I try not to go to the nitty-gritty of a sentence here a sentence there.

jmd	15 Feb 2003
I find the whole area a fascinating one, and difficult as at times different aspects are really being discussed: its social-legal, its commercial-economic and its spiritual-creative aspects. At the one hand of the spectrum is the simple courteous and proper acknowledgement of citing sources (not always possible, as mentioned in various ways above), and at the other, the 'making into one's own and commercially profiteering' from the shared ideas. Here are three specific examples. The first is an insight I had many years ago, and shared in numerous courses - and much later here, of peculiar pairings of Major Arcana cards (mentioned elsewhere I/XI, etc). In one of the threads, it was mentioned (I think by DeLani) that this was also used (and since published) by Nigel Jackson in his booklet accompanying his deck. Here, I maintain that there are two (amongst others I could come up with) likely possibilities: ' my ' system somehow travelled to Scotland and reached the ears or eyes of Jackson, who incorporated it in his own work, or he independently 'discovered' the same. Assuming the first of these, I do not expect him to have known its proper source - the way ideas and insights move across the world is various, and, like Diana mentioned, snippets of interesting bits and pieces are copied because of their interesting insights - the 'who' becomes not only unimportant, but in many ways irrelevant (as I once heard it described, the 'who' become merely the vehicles for the propagation and life of thoughts - not that I agree with this). The second is even more relevant to Tarot - for we are dealing with insights into the spiritual realities beyond the veil of the revelatory image: the anonymity of those who share those words remains in the transmission, as it has for those important images. The third is what amounts to essentially the theft of Kat Black's (one of Aeclectic's members) artistic work and printing and selling what was really her deck without her knowledge, permission or just rewards. Of course, where pecuniary aspects enter, then proper renumeration needs to be given where properly due - which may depend on the proper courteous acknowledgement in the chain of travel... but even without this economical, nor legal, aspect being entered, proper consideration and acknowledgement of the creative insights of a fellow human being's work is, when at all possible, just plain courteous.

Alex	15 Feb 2003
The article was copyrighted. But you are right, the boundaries are loose and the war against plagiarism has ben lost from the start. Every semester I have at least one student who plagiarizes close to an entire web site and they still don't get it. Even when confronted with the ethics counsil at school, students tend to plainly deny having plagiarized, regardless of a 90% match between textes and such. Unfortunately I have a very good memory and I recognized the post I'd read some 7 months ago when I came accross the web site. Most people don't have such good recall memory and that's why plagiarims tends to run wild. I agree that most of us have done it to some extent and most of us will do it to some extent in the future, but it should be done better than close to a 90% word match and such, or have the source cited, whichever way works. Thanks for your thoughts. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Karenwhe A person that publishes in an opened forum is very well aware of the probability that someone will take and plagiarize their writing. They should copy right the article if they wish to do that (if they wish to retain rights to the text/concept/idea).

Alex	15 Feb 2003
jmd, I still recall one of my grad fellows who had his paper rejected by Nature just to find "his" idea published in the same magazine, a year latter, by somebody else in the field. See, articles are sent out for peer review. "Pears" can reject an article, and by the same token, they can steal an yet unpublished idea. "Ideas" can be stolen more efficiently than the body of a text. The likelyhood that you and I will write a text with the same words and grammar structure is as close to "o" as it can be. The likelyhood that we will come up with a similar insight on something is much higher. My point is not only about being ethical, but about avoiding "playing the fool". Copy and paste, AND cite. Thanks for your thoughts Alex. Quote: Originally posted by jmd Here are three specific examples. [list] [*] The first is an insight I had many years ago, and shared in numerous courses - and much later here, of peculiar pairings of Major Arcana cards (mentioned elsewhere I/XI, etc). In one of the threads, it was mentioned (I think by DeLani) that this was also used (and since published) by Nigel Jackson in his booklet accompanying his deck. Here, I maintain that there are two (amongst others I could come up with) likely possibilities: ' my ' system somehow travelled to Scotland and reached the ears or eyes of Jackson, who incorporated it in his own work, or he independently 'discovered' the same.

Karenwhe	16 Feb 2003
Alex, Quote: Originally posted by Alex The article was copyrighted. But you are right, the boundaries are loose and the war against plagiarism has ben lost from the start. Every semester I have at least one student who plagiarizes close to an entire web site and they still don't get it. Even when confronted with the ethics counsil at school, students tend to plainly deny having plagiarized, regardless of a 90% match between textes and such. It gets worse I know of a Technical Writer that took an entire part of a published book WORD by WORD and I mean it Word by Word 2 or 3 pages, not even editing punctuation. And published it as "her" article with her name on it at the company she is working. Even worse the company is a major company in the US and she published it in the University section of the company's web site....... she can also get the company into legal trouble not only herself. Do you think she cares? Now this is the stuff that gets to me the most, it makes me so angry, it is despicable.

Aoife	16 Feb 2003
The UK government has in recent days been found out for plagarising a US doctoral student's thesis [grammatical/punctuation faults and all] in a significant UK government document about the Iraq situation.

Diana	16 Feb 2003
Aoife, wonderful to be reminded of this! :laugh:

Moongold	26 Mar 2003
I thought it would be worth bumping this thread up again in the light of recent confusion here. More people are developing their own websites, writing articles about tarot and so on and it's worth revisiting these issues and being aware of our rights and reponsibilities. Here are some useful web sites: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html http://www.cla.co.uk/copyrightvillage/internet.html http://www.kresanet.org/lhslib/Copyright.htm Moongold

Astraea	26 Mar 2003
A year ago, my work was plagiarized by a major Internet seach engine for its directory. I contacted a lawyer who specializes in intellectual property laws (the heading under which copyright regulations operate). He told me that this is the hottest-button area of Internet law right now, and also the most expensive to prosecute. The other things he told me were sickening, to wit: a) Merely writing the words "copyright" after something you have written is meaningless; someone else can steal your words and say the same thing, unless you can provide documentation that you wrote them first. b) The only way to legally document this (in the US, at any rate) is to federally copyright the text/photo/idea with the government. The appropriate forms for doing this can be downloaded from the appropriate website, and there are fees associated with this. Here's the link: http://www.copyright.gov/ c) Prosecuting copyright violations is expensive. In my case, a letter of warning from the attorney cost $350 and didn't have any effect on the plagiarizer, who knew that he was okay in the eyes of the law because I had not federally copyrighted my work -- I had thought that saying "copyright" at the end of my words was sufficient. The attorney advised me that I would probably win a lawsuit brought against the company in question, but it would cost me a minimum of $10,000 to do so. Needless to say, I didn't follow through, and to this day I feel slimed, angry and disgusted by the whole experience. I urge everyone here to research the intellectual property laws of the countries where they reside, because national regulations governing print media are usually the same ones that apply to cyberspace. Thank you for bumping this important thread up, Moongold.

Faerie Lin	26 Mar 2003
Thankyou all for participating in this thread. I am relieved this is being stressed and highly talked about on this forum now. My husband use to be a manager of a band and researched alot on how to protect your stuff. Now, one way to provide proof that you have written/designed something first is to mail a copy to yourself (certified mail), when you get it don't open it. Just let it be, keep it safe. It being certified mail it will have a "time stamp" on it. So one can do this with lyrics, copies of artwork, printed out webpages etc. Of course certify mail it to yourself BEFORE putting it out in the public.

Astraea	26 Mar 2003
Faerie Lin, my attorney advised me that sending certified copies of something to oneself does not constitute legal proof of copyright. Even if one's work is in an unopened envelope with a date prior to that which a plagiarizer has used, unless there is a federal copyright in place (see my previous post, above, for details), one is out of luck. :(

Faerie Lin	26 Mar 2003
No it doesn't constitute legal proof of copyright, but having any proof compared to the "defendant's"? proof would be better than anything.

HudsonGray	26 Mar 2003
Everyone's heard of the 'send yourself a letter' proof, but it won't hold up in court. Best way is to copyright something--costs $30 in the US and is good for the life of the person plus 30 years, though they're doing a legal change to extend the 30 years. If it's important to you-copyright it. You'll have a date and a number that's legally upholdable in a court of law & you won't nearly have all that trouble defending yourself. Otherwise, be prepared to let it go. It's SO difficult to provide 'proof' after the fact, and they can drag things out legally for a really long time.

Faerie Lin	26 Mar 2003
No, doing the certified letter ISN'T proof of copyright (meaning won't help that much in court) but in certain situations will prove that its yours. Especially if you work in a tight group of some sort where their might be "stealers and credit takers", school activities, things of the like, where all you can do is hope you have some sort of dated proof to show the "head of the group". Lots of negative people everywhere. Actually had some lyrics stolen before. But was lucky enough to prove my ownership. That experience changed my outlook.

NeXoRiouS	03 Apr 2003
Plagiarism is bad. But if one has the capability to make his own, why go copy others ideas? So why do you guys even bother about them. The point is so what if you found out who is the real person who has made it appear in the beginning. If someone is willing to show their piece of work to the others, it would mean they are allowing others to take his work as a role model. Even if someone gains credit for plagiarising his work, they will never know what great experiences the latter had when he made his piece of work. So what if someone become famous with your work. In your heart, you should know that if you are capable of producing something which could make someone famous, i believe you are even capable of creating something even better because you have the full grasp of the efforts you put in the work. No one understands it better than you. No point in pouting your lips. There is no justice in this world. There are only truth and deceit.

HudsonGray	03 Apr 2003
It's not the 'using the art as a role model' that's the problem. It's the outright stealing of it & having someone else say they are the artist that is what others are objecting to. I've had one of my designs 'stolen' already. It's one of the stuffed toys I make my living with--a guy ordered 14 of them for his store, tore one apart, had 5,000 made up in China 3 months later, then advertised them in a gaming catalog for sale to retailers. Since it was a distinctive design & people know I've been making them since 1985, I had 3 people AND a store contact me about if it was ME that was advertising them through this other guy & they offered to be 'witnesses' for me if I needed proof that I was the original artist. That was extremely nice of them, something you don't often see in the business world. I had my own original copyright on the doll, filed back in 1985, but still had to get a copyright lawyer to get him to stop, to pay me a penalty for stealing my work (since I had invoices as proof he had 14 of my dolls directly mailed from me) and to have them pulled from the market. I found out later he did this regularly with things others had designed & that most of them never saw a penny. Technically I didn't see a penny either, as the copyright lawyer's fee was over $2,000, but this was one of my two 'bread and butter' designs & what I make a living at so I had to take legal action to stop him. If you're looking at doing a whole bunch of stuff that you don't care if someone steals, fine. But if you need this to make a living with, that's another story entirely & you do have cause for concern. Showing people work doesn't mean you're going to let others steal it and make money off it. Putting pictures up online doesn't say 'steal me' to everyone. I don't care if someone uses my work as a BASIS to start theirs, but it shouldn't look like MY work once they say they're finished. Yes, I can make things that make me famous, but I'm the one WORKING at doing it. Nobody else gets a free ride. Ethics say no. Morals say no.

NeXoRiouS	07 Apr 2003
I understand your feelings but to me, I prefer a carefree life. No doubt being exploited by vile people are obviously detested by all but why bother? Life's like that or there won't be excitement.

Aoife	07 Apr 2003
I suspect NeXoRious, that when you get a bit older and have maybe put your all into something only to have it stolen from you, you may see things a little differently. Maybe if you stopped to imagine how you might feel in the future you might better be able to understand the hurt and anger people feel when they have had their hard work plagarised.

NeXoRiouS	09 Apr 2003
I can understand. But I would wish to live a carefree life as in no boundaries no rules. Throw away all those burdens. To me, take all you want. As long as you are happy with doing it, I don't mind at all. :)

Alex	09 Apr 2003
then as life goes by, most people shift towards more conservative views about things. Why? Because you begin to experience the importance of certain rules and traditions. I used to be pro free relationships, against marriage, socialist, liberal, anarchist, and lastly, vegetarian. Now I think certain rules and regulations about difficult subjects actually simplify life. And I go to the McDonalds every once in a while and eat chicken. We change, we change, write it down. Alex Quote: Originally posted by NeXoRiouS But I would wish to live a carefree life as in no boundaries no rules. Throw away all those burdens. To me, take all you want. As long as you are happy with doing it, I don't mind at all. :)

Moongold	10 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex Now I think certain rules and regulations about difficult subjects actually simplify life. And I go to the McDonalds every once in a while and eat chicken. We change, we change, write it down. Alex, I laughed out loud. Thank you! You're quite special. Moongold

NeXoRiouS	10 Apr 2003
I believe I will live happier in a communistic world. As you've said, take note of rules, it will be best to live life in ignorance.. less worries. Too much fast food won't do good to your health. High cholestrol and soft drinks will only make your kidneys go soft. Life's like that. Boring.

firemaiden	10 Apr 2003
IN academic circles where "publish or perish" is the law, being able to prove a thought was yours originally, is... well.. a matter of life and death, and not just metaphorically. People have commit suicide over being found out, and others have commit suicide over having their original research not recognised. Since an academic career depends entirely on publishing original research and thought, if your original research is stolen, it is like having your livelihood destroyed, your store broken into, and burned down. Being accused of plagiarism is also a bit like being accused of child molestation... it will destroy a career. Anti-intellectualism at the government level does little to calm this dog-eat-dog desperation to publish original thinking. This leads, quite understandably to some paranoia. I was once accused of plagiarism. My first year in graduate school, I gave a lovely presentation (in a feminist lit criticism course). I felt it was quite ingenious, and really enjoyed presenting it. When finished, however, I felt strange, as though I had done too well, and it had upset people. As I sat down, next to my colleague, an older student, she rose in fury, and asked to see my notes, which I showed her proudly. She then started asking me strange questions. I understood after a minute, she thought I had stolen her ideas. It was like she had suddenly become another person... Utterly destraught, (I thought her word would be taken against mine... she had been in the department a good while) I marched straight into the department chairman 's office, and demanded an audience. Between sobs, I told him who had accused me of what. He started laughing, and told me not to worry, that she had also accused him of plagiarism, as well as just about everyone else of importance in the department... ON the other side of the coin, I was teaching a humanities course in a college in New Jersey, a few years back, and had a couple of students who were barely able to write their name. (for some reason they were in college???) I gave a rather difficult take home essay final exam. Two students turned in exactly the same paper, it seems they copied some essay off the internet. It had nothing to do with the questions, and was quite unintelligible. I would probably have flunked both of them anyway, but this made it mandatory! In addition to stressing non-plagiarizing, and giving credit where credit is due, we also have to strive to teach critical thinking, independent, free analytical thought. IN my opinion, which is not mine, but is borrowed from enlightenment thinkers like de Tocqueville, Freedom / Democracy can only survive as an insitution if we carefully guard the flame of independent critical thinking. So we must keep the fire from going out. Plagiarism is like a two-fold assault on that sacred flame.

Diana	10 Apr 2003
NeXoRiouS: Living life in ignorance is dangerous. But you know that, otherwise you wouldn't be interested in Tarot, because Tarot opens the doors to wisdom. There is an a very famous French song that goes: "Les bourgeois, c'est comme des cochons, plus ça devient vieux, plus ça devient bête". Which translates as: "Like pigs, the older bourgeois people become, the more stupid they become". If you can keep your youthful ideals for the rest of your life, in the face of all the temptations of materialistic comfort and petty bourgeois worries, you will be a king indeed. But it is hard. Very hard. Just make sure of one thing: that your liberty never encroaches on other people's liberties. That is often like walking on a tightrope. To not crush others and at the same time not betraying who you are. Tarot will help you see clearly. Always. Because Tarot will teach you the real rules. Not those made by man, but those made by the Divine, whatever that means to you.

Alex	10 Apr 2003
the reason why we should stick with rules and regulations about plagiarims is because they may help protect individuals from having their ideas simply stolen by large corporations. There is no way to compete. So if you are very tallented, and design your little beatiful deck, you may not be able to sell it ever. If a large corporation decides to publish it for you, you get credits and a portion of the money, you know. That can help you buy your own food doing something you love. If there were no laws, INDIVIDUALS AND WEAKER CORPORATIONS WOULD BE CRUNCHED. People could not do what they *want* but only what large corporations wanted them to do. NeXoRiouS, can you see how personal freedom and well-being can be enhanced or protected by certain laws? Unfortunately, Human Nature ain't something to be very proud about, if there is no cohercion to bad behavior, too many people will be enprisioned by their own weakness and inability to protect themselves *individually*. Freedom is but another side of obedience to certain regulations. Alex.

Butterfly	10 Apr 2003
But, Nexorious, the little that I have heard about Singapore is that personal freedom is really lacking- it is a strong offense to even have chewing gum, or drop trash. In this context of your culture, it is understandable that you would have different views on this. Isn't it?

Astraea	10 Apr 2003
On her website, Robin Wood has a nice piece about copyrights and why the issue is so important. I think it's a very user-friendly statement and represents a valuable contribution to this discussion, especially in relation to the use of graphics. Here's the link: http://www.robinwood.com/Catalog/CopyrightInfo.html

NeXoRiouS	11 Apr 2003
I guess fellows of Aeclectic Tarot are a bunch of spokesman and woman. Especially when talking about life. First of all, live life happily or you might just end up stressing yourself. Secondly, dangerous is nothing. How I just wished my life could be crushed and my death will be insignificant. My only worries in this world is to upset others upon my death or else I had long killed myself. Thirdly, yes, rules help to make our society a smaller circle and give us priorities but nevertheless the rich and powerful are still capable of encroaching the small and insignificant legally. For example, taking over of small companies are just as easy as chewing food. People got bankrupt because these rich magnates are capable of taking over your possessions in the name of only giving you your "salary" but the rest of the dividends goes to them. Yes, this world is eat or to be eaten. But without such rules that allow it, the weaker can also survive. It's just a matter of time. Fourth on the list, laws are important but don't ignore the fact that they create a boundary which forbids you from surpassing a world of deceit and lies. Bear in mind, the richer you get, the more competition and worries will rise. As for the fifth, butterfly has mentioned about chewing gums, yes indeed my country, Singapore implores strict laws but for the sake of our safety and development. As we are only a dot on the world map, every single agreement we make have to inspected meticulously. Why? We do not own our own water, we do not have our own farms to support our agriculture. Our lands are too little to support our ever-growing population. In my culture, career and money ranks first. As for family, sometimes it could even be last. Last of all, copyrights merely give you legal rights to your ownership. If someone is out to crush you which is common in our society, you will be unable to fight back but only to wait for them to stalk. The live in the dark, you are in the open, no matter how ingenious you are, only the cunning will survive. Bear in mind, or else why there have been murders of boss of here and there? Oftenly people says Justice will prevail. Nevertheless, up till today, I'm sure there are many powerful magnates that resort to underhand measures which even the government has to give them respects. I'm not lying. No matter how many contracts, agreements, signatures and etc, you will only end up in the loss. Wise up.

firemaiden	11 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by NeXoRiouS Secondly, dangerous is nothing. How I just wished my life could be crushed and my death will be insignificant. My only worries in this world is to upset others upon my death or else I had long killed myself. Either you are being facetious, in which case your point goes to support the opposing side of your argument; or you are stating the truth of how you feel, that you place no value on life -- in which case your opinions are to be pitied. P.S. Stress is part of life, which I cherish, stress makes life interesting, and gives high points and low points. Love life, love stress.

Diana	11 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by NeXoRiouS Bear in mind, the richer you get, the more competition and worries will rise. The richer you get, the more you will be able to not respect rules and regulations in all impunity. We all know there is one justice for the rich and another for the poor. But without the rules, the poor would be little more than slaves. Sometimes the poor do win, and then it is a marvellous victory. (As to chewing gum: Switzerland is a very clean country, but I wish there were two laws which would be made for the rich and the poor: Any chewing gum or cigarette stubs thrown on the ground would be fined heavily. Sometimes I dream of Singapore when I walk in the street. Also dog mess on the ground. I bet there's not much of that around in Singapore either.)

Alex	11 Apr 2003
even in the US, where people like so much to call themselves "free", you see. I recall when I lived in Berlin, passing by water fons in summer and seing children bathing naked and topless women under the sun. Here, I was called attention for changing my 3 year old boy's swimm suit at the pool area. Not to talk about having a beer outdoors, one has to cover the bottle because in most states it is forbidden to drink alcoohol in public areas. Again, my freedom to dropp chewing gum or cigarrettes on the sidewalk goes against my fellow's freedom to walk in a clean place. My freedom to copy other's work and get rich over my fellow's creativity might cause my fellow to have to work in a factory in order to sustain himself. There is no "free" country or society, there are different sets of rules and regulations and different degrees of individual freedom and individual protection. Individual freedom is relative to the degree of protection an individual will have, in his society, as an individual. I will risk to say that the places where there is more "freedom" are also the places where there are more "regulations" and everyone agree to follown them closely for the sake of their neighbour. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Butterfly But, Nexorious, the little that I have heard about Singapore is that personal freedom is really lacking- it is a strong offense to even have chewing gum, or drop trash. In this context of your culture, it is understandable that you would have different views on this. Isn't it?

NeXoRiouS	11 Apr 2003
Through the way I see you folks reply back, I can tell that you hope to change my views. Anyway, I'm rather stubborn. It's also endless to go on debating about copyrights, rules, laws and of course plagiarising. Might as well end here or it might just get worse. Don't you agree? No matter how much effort a person has put in to eradicate a thought they believe as false concept, it will only be fruitless unless the person experiences it solely by him/herself. Freedom is only a verbal expression, only by actions can it be recognized. I do believe everyone has a point in their statement but bear in mind, it's only an opinion, others might not recognize it. If you have found any misconception or found that I'm contradicting, don't hurry to correct me, I live in a contradicting world. May the ignorant be blessed.

Alex	11 Apr 2003
speaking for myself only, I don't care that much about your views, that I would make any effort to change them. I enjoy discussing different subjects, that's all. And this one I find particularly interesting. Alex Quote: Originally posted by NeXoRiouS Through the way I see you folks reply back, I can tell that you hope to change my views.

NeXoRiouS	13 Apr 2003
The End.

Aoife	13 Apr 2003
To reduce it to it's simplest level, plagarism is theft. I don't like having things stolen from me, and I would be upset and angry if others stole what was mine. Practicalities aside, it is therefore also an emotional issue - one about which people understandably feel strongly.

Butterfly	13 Apr 2003
Oh, boy, Alex, I didn't mean that! I'm fully with you on the whole trash thing. The point I was trying to make- obviously very poorly LOL, was that different cultures may influence views on freedom and regulations. I have heard that Singapore is highly regulated and was just trying to indicate that point. In no way do I condone trash, or impinging on the freedom of others :)

Alex	14 Apr 2003
You didn't mean... what? I was "talking" in general terms, I di understand your point. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Butterfly Oh, boy, Alex, I didn't mean that! I'm fully with you on the whole trash thing. The point I was trying to make- obviously very poorly LOL, was that different cultures may influence views on freedom and regulations. I have heard that Singapore is highly regulated and was just trying to indicate that point. In no way do I condone trash, or impinging on the freedom of others :)

Lee	15 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by NeXoRiouS The End. Dear Nexorious, this is a discussion forum, which means that if anyone wants to say something, they are free to say it as long as it doesn't violate the forum guidelines. That means you don't get to choose when a discussion ends. If you don't want to participate in a discussion anymore, the thing to do is to simply stop responding to it. I think it's interesting that you're so concerned about individual freedoms, yet when the discussion is moving in a way you don't like, then suddenly you're eager to deny others' freedoms to continue the discussion. -- Lee :)

anjocoxo	15 Apr 2003
Plagiarism is always the easiest way of someone who doesn't have the genius (or the pacience) of writing something themselves. Unfortunately we live in a world where you can sue a microwave trade because you've put your cat in the microwave to dry and the cat blow up (now, if that wasn't on the instructions, how could you know that your cat was going to blow up?) but when it comes to really important things (like plagiarism or, for instance, ecological disasters) nobody can move a finger... sometimes those who actually move a finger are... heroes? martyrs?people who feel angered because they're being harmed? I've heard once: "Laws are like spiderwebs: they catch the smaller insects, but the bigger ones just cross them through" I guess there's nothing else to add...... Anjo

Cerulean	15 Apr 2003
I came in this discussion really late. I did a few small reviews and found a paragraph lifted from one of my reviews on a tarot page that was selling through Amazon.com. In a sense if the viewer clicked on the link, they would have eventually found that the description was lifted from a reader review---so that wasn't out and out plagerism. But that did set me thinking and hoping that I am careful. I actually try--although I'm not as skilled as many here-- to cite various attributions correctly, even when I do private group poetry circle exercises. I'm trying to form better habits. For those who generous enough to share their experiments and studies and yet want a backup to show their work is actually theirs---I was told that a U.S. citizen can get a Library of Congress assigned number by copying the contents of their website on a diskette/CD and submitting the contents to the appropriate Library of Congress authority. I don't have an address, but the idea was given to me by a website designer for a municipal agency. I do hope this perspective helps someone. Mari Hoshizaki

KelarSkye	18 Apr 2003
I wanted to point something out because there appears to be confusion (or there may not be and I am just confusing it the way I am reading it). You CANNOT copyright an IDEA. In intellectual circles, proving your thought was original is one thing, but you simply cannot legally copyright an IDEA. You can copyright an EXPRESSION of an idea. Someone earlier in the thread (and I am not citing it because if I press the back button I will lose my post :-) made a comment that s/he had an idea a long time ago and relayed to others in various setting regarding Major Arcana card pairings that subsequently turned up in Nigel Jackson's work. (I am not saying this person made a raucus, this is just a good example to use). There is no copyright infringement there, even if the original person had published the concept. Why? Because the subsequent incarnation of the work was more than likely originally applied. The concept was applied independently, therefore the idea was used, not the expression of the idea. (not a cut and paste job) OK, that's all :-) I keep seeing people use the word "copyright" and "idea" together and I wanted to point out that they really don't go together in that way. Cheers! I love this discussion. If I actually wasn't too lazy to go to law school I would study communications law (copyright, libel, etc.)

Alex	18 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by KelarSkye You CANNOT copyright an IDEA. In intellectual circles, proving your thought was original is one thing, but you simply cannot legally copyright an IDEA.

Astraea	25 Apr 2003
Copyright laws are a jungle. As a result of blatant plagiarism last year, I had to consult an attorney, and he told me that -- in a sense -- ideas are, indeed, protected by copyright. The idea, itself, is probably not protectable, but its application is. If I tell someone my plot idea, and later it appears as that person's movie (or even as a minor element of the overall production), that is a copyright violation. Copyright laws are all about splitting hairs, which is why they cost so much to enforce and can entangle one in court for years and years. :(

skytwig	26 Apr 2003
Just read the whole thread and thought I'd jump in. I am a writer who has had to face this question time and again. I made the decision, for instance, to write pieces for addicts in recovery for counselors to use. I essentially gave up my right to it because the need to help others was more important to me. I know they will be stolen; one piece already was and is now used in a treatment facility as part of their Welcome package. But here's the key. What do we do with our 'gifts'? Do we hold them so tightly that no one has access to their beauty or do we believe in that gift's life? Do we believe we have only that piece or that sentence or that idea in us? Is that what fuels this debate - fear of not being able to do it again? I was upset when I saw that this part time employee had stolen my writing for his full time organization (A facility for Homeless people)... He is the type of individual who would take credit for it. He is small. Then, I was grateful that my writing was going to help hundreds of homeless people on their journey to a new life. Maybe that was the way for my words to reach them. Maybe this small man, too, will one day learn from his deception, maybe not. It doesn't matter. I am fortunate to have my gifts. I can hold them greedily, like the miser, or I can take the risk to share and what needs to come back to me will. I do not say we should be foolish and I do not say plagarism is ok; it isn't; it is sad; it is stealing. But I also know I have more words; i have more ideas; I have an endless Source that exists far beyond this tiny planet. I do what I do and I let go of a lot of it. If not, I will drive myself crazy.

Alex	27 Apr 2003
it is whether you have an independent source of income or not. You can share your gifts but if you don't profit from any of these, how you gonna live? Work in a factory? Clean bathrooms? Nothing wrong with it, but that someone else who is profiting from your gifts should be requested to share the profits with you, isn't it? I DO believe we have to respect people's creations and give them the credit. Even when no money is involved. It is a moral issue. Educate ourselves on NOT STEALING, not making our fame or name or fortune on someone else's creations. It is wrong. That you are generous does not make the people who have stolen from you "right". They would help others no less if they gave you the CREDIT and some of the profit may be. Think about it. One thing is that I see you starving and share with you a piece of my bread. Another thing is if you come and steal a piece of my bread. I will starve no less, but the implication here is of a moral nature. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by skytwig But here's the key. What do we do with our 'gifts'? Do we hold them so tightly that no one has access to their beauty or do we believe in that gift's life? Do we believe we have only that piece or that sentence or that idea in us? Is that what fuels this debate - fear of not being able to do it again?

skytwig	27 Apr 2003
Idealistically, that would be true. Idealistically, the world would be a generous, loving place. Laws are created simply because people AREN'T loving and kind. Free will gives everyone a choice, and many choose to steal. Plain and simple. It is a fact and it is rampant. Moral issues don't concern those who could learn from such a discussion most. They simply do what they want. they justify stealing. Recent ethical issues in the world of business loudly proclaims that money dictates greed. I personally don't think laws or moral discussions are going to affect the people who need it most. what I am trying to point out is that we, as moral and ethical beings, need to accept that 'evil' manifests in everyday life. Theives are everywhere - in business, in government, even purusing through this forum. If we accept that it exists and that it is not going to change, then how to we function, how do we co-exist with it? Changing the minds of theives is not going to happen. For me, I had to decide where and how to give some stuff away and where and how to channel the rest into a tighter framework. I also had to get with my 'gods' and discuss the gifts so freely given to me and how i can use those gifts to help others. That, to me, is the real moral issue.

The Plagiarism thread was originally posted on 14 Feb 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.