veiled apparitions in the RWS Eight of Cups!!!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Feb 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	21 Feb 2003
I seem to be an expert in finding faces in the wood knots, and in the ceiling cracks, is it just me, are there mysterious figures to be divined in the rocks? In the rock to the left, I see an old woman seated, wrapped in a blanket and a shawl, with long black hair. In the black mass of rock towards which the guy is walking, the rock looks like the hermit walking towards us, completely enshrouded in his black cape, or lifting his black cape up and out like wings, as if to enfold the approching hero. The walking stick of our young hero, becomes the walking stick of the hermit. That is to say, the walking stick is shared by both figures... Alternatively, this hermit looks like death. Even if the figures of the hermit and/or death are not clear, the black rock certainly is ominous, shadowy, suggesting not just a turn away from something, but a turn in particular toward shadowy realms, perhaps the beginning of a descente into hell. And now that I have seen the old woman, she won't go away. Why did I say old? She could be young, or old. Somehow I think she is a crone. She is just sitting there, pretending to be a rock. She is sitting so still, it makes her almost invisible, that is why I think she is old, because she is as ancient as the rock. But I think she is the high priestess, watching over our young hero as he turns to face the realms of darknes... Have these been seen before? Can you see them or should I try and get more sleep? Please tell me!!

rota	21 Feb 2003
Well, I've examined the card in question, and I'll confess I don't see the images you do. I hasten to add that's not to say they're not there, or that Pixie might not have put them there... There have been a couple of threads over the last months about hidden faces in the RWS decks. You might do a search or two and see what you can find. There are plenty of opinions on the subject!

firemaiden	21 Feb 2003
yeah I participated in the hidden faces thread... but it was more about faces turned away, than about apparitions...This is one of the cards I can never call to mind when thinking of the cards in my head. It has never stuck out as having any particular meaning...hard to put a key concept to, as there are so many walking and turning away cards, or turning and looking away, I find it hard to differentiate them all. So I was going through the list of least-memorable for me cards, and working on them, and all of a sudden I saw death. At first I really saw death, but then I couldn't see it again when I got the card larger on the screen. But the old lady is still sitting there...perhaps ... Thanks for looking at the card Rota! --- p.s. ROTA -- your signature line! LOL!

Aoife	21 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden In the rock to the left, I see an old woman seated, wrapped in a blanket and a shawl, with long black hair. To be honest I'd have to make a leap of imagination to follow you but if I do, I see a figure with 2 children enfolded in her/his shawl at her/his feet. Quote: In the black mass of rock towards which the guy is walking, the rock looks like the hermit walking towards us, completely enshrouded in his black cape, or lifting his black cape up and out like wings, as if to enfold the approching hero. The walking stick of our young hero, becomes the walking stick of the hermit. That is to say, the walking stick is shared by both figures... I agree!..... looks like the figure is about to merge with/ become the Hermit? Quote: Alternatively, this hermit looks like death. Even if the figures of the hermit and/or death are not clear, the black rock certainly is ominous, shadowy, suggesting not just a turn away from something, but a turn in particular toward shadowy realms, perhaps the beginning of a descente into hell. Not sure I agree..... It puzzles me that this seems to be a night-time scene, the only apparent source of light is from the moon - and yet the rocks on the right of the figure are white/ illuminated. If I track the figure's path I think he's walking away from a moonlit scene towards a daylight scene. Following this through I would speculate that the figure is leaving the shadows [uncertainty?] of night to merge with the Hermit and continue his path towards the light [wisdom]. PS I note that Rachel Pollack in 78DW remarks on the resemblance between the figure and the Hermit and develops the theme. She also notes - as I had failed to that it is not a moonlit scene but a lunar eclipse..... but that still doesn't answer where the source of light on the right hand side small rocks is coming from. Pamela CS was an accomplished artist and one of the first things she would have learned would have been about light sources. Eve

firemaiden	21 Feb 2003
Thanks, Aoife, leap of faith or no, you see her! I see the children too! Quote: It puzzles me that this seems to be a night-time scene, the only apparent source of light is from the moon - and yet the rocks on the right of the figure are white/ illuminated. If I track the figure's path I think he's walking away from a moonlit scene towards a daylight scene. Following this through I would speculate that the figure is leaving the shadows [uncertainty?] of night to merge with the Hermit and continue his path towards the light [wisdom] . The source of light is actually the sun, albeit being slowly obscured by the moon. I think in an eclipse all the natural rules of light are broken. I do however think that the Hermit and Death are similar characters, if only because of their cloak. To me, the hermit, is like Hermes, navigator to the Underworld, that is why to me he represents the "descente aux enfers" - not hell really, I expressed myself badly, but rather the Underword: I mean a descent into hidden, unconscious realms. For this he needs a lantern, because he will be ploughing through utter darkness. Hermitage evokes for me, the idea of living alone, naked in a pitch black cave. -- I think the lamp he bears is the emblem and promise of of inner light earned by facing the darkness. Quote: PS I note that Rachel Pollack in 78DW remarks on the resemblance between the figure and the Hermit and develops the theme. When RP writes of "the figure" she means our young hero...she means he is turning away from the party of eight cups to try something new. She thinks it is something better because on higher ground.... But she didn't see the image of a hermit/cloaked death angel -- such is the image born of scrying in the shadows in the rocks!

Macavity	21 Feb 2003
You are right about the eclipse. I was always puzzled by Pollack's interpretation? It seems indeed to be a partial solar one! :) And indeed such things are accompanied by all sorts of bizarre light phenoma. Now did PCS ever see such an eclipse? Well she joined the GD in 1902 and began the RWS deck in 1909. There WAS (as far as I can ascertain) a notable eclipse in 1905 (PCS would have been 27 y.o.) It was total from North Africa and doubtless(?) partial from the UK. So QED? :D Hmmm - Makes ya think anyway... with Crowley et al. announcing the "Age of Aquarius" in 1904 and all that good stuff... Macavity (Who can see the hermit... and the crone on the left... sitting in front of her familiar black cat, which (naturally) gazes fondly up at her... from beneath a tiny crescent moon :D)

Kitty	22 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I seem to be an expert in finding faces in the wood knots, and in the ceiling cracks, is it just me, are there mysterious figures to be divined in the rocks? In the rock to the left, I see an old woman seated, wrapped in a blanket and a shawl, with long black hair. Have these been seen before? Can you see them or should I try and get more sleep? Please tell me!! Just got the 8 of wands in my spread - so looking at card now...... Hmmmmm no -can't see her - but you have certainly got me to look at the card closer....now what does landscape in the background signify?? *off to do some research.....*

firemaiden	22 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity You are right about the eclipse. I was always puzzled by Pollack's interpretation? It seems indeed to be a partial solar one! :) And indeed such things are accompanied by all sorts of bizarre light phenoma. Right, RP wrote "lunar" but perhaps she didn't know what a lunar eclipse is. When I read RP, I started thinking, what is a "lunar eclipse" exactly. The sun obscuring the moon??? Hardly, first of all, the sun is way too far away from the moon to get in front of it, and second of all, if it could get in front of it, which it can't, we would hardly call that "obscuring" would we, in the case of the sun. No, so what is a lunar eclipse?: a lunar eclipse is the moon eclipsed by the shadow of the earth! clearly not represented here. more here: lunar eclipse Wow! That is interesting, Macavity! Thank you! oh, but what is QED? Quote: ..Macavity...who can see the hermit... and the crone on the left... sitting in front of her familiar black cat, which (naturally) gazes fondly up at her... from beneath a tiny crescent moon :D) NO really, Macavity? Do you see that? Don't make fun of me now! Really, do you see that? I believe you. Please tell me you are not joking!! Macavity, I don't see the cat looking up at her, But I do see two lions or cats at her feet looking out in the same direction she is! OH, but Macavity, now that you mention it, I do see the old crone, and her black cat in the Secret Tarot Nine of Pentacles. They just looked like an extremely strange rock, the crone and her cat (or squirrel? this for HOLMES) are all but obscured by the nine pentacles, but on the BOX they are not... hmm

Silverlotus	22 Feb 2003
Oddly enough, I just read the section on the Eight of Cups last night in 78DW. :) And I must say, I can sort of see the mountain as the Hermit now. I can see a sort of similar area in the Robin Wood card as well. I like the meaning this adds to the card. Is this figure destined to become the Hermit? Or does the Hermit swallow him up? For some people the search is rewarding (i.e. becoming the Hermit), but it can destroy others. What an interesting shade of meaning to add to this card. Thank you for sharing your observations firemaiden, and everyone else too.

firemaiden	22 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kitty Hmmmmm no -can't see her - but you have certainly got me to look at the card closer....now what does landscape in the background signify?? *off to do some research.....* Well, I'm with Umbrae on this one, don't do too much research....look at the landscape and the pictures, and think about what they say to you instead! And don't take any book for gospel, just think: one of the most thorough books the minor cards is Rachel Pollacks 78 degrees of Wisdom, which we were just discussing here, and finding problems with...

firemaiden	22 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Silverlotus Is this figure destined to become the Hermit? Or does the Hermit swallow him up? For some people the search is rewarding (i.e. becoming the Hermit), but it can destroy others. Hi Silverlotus. I am so glad you can see that! My feeling is that our young hero is not going to "become" the Hermit, but is going to travel some way with him. Not so much being swallowed up by the Hermit, but now that you mention it, that could be another dimension too! But since the young hero is walking towards him of his own accord, I would say more that the Hermit is embracing him, taking him in, so to speak, even as the young hero is himself embracing the shadows. It reminds me of the therapist that told me if I didn't face my "shadow side" bad things would happen to me. She had me read a little book by Robert Bly about embracing the Shadow. It said things like if you don't embrace the shadow, you will have accidents, etc. At the time, I took that to be a sort of psychological blackmail to work with her, and pay her lots and lots of money in therapy, to avoid all those looming "bad things" and opted out (what will they think of next?) ...but I do think facing the shadow self is important and valuable.

Macavity	22 Feb 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden NO really, Macavity? Do you see that? Yes indeed :D However I should say that I am often able to see things... once they are (vaguely) pointed out. With Tarot, particularly, I often need a start - even from the printed page ;) But there are quite a number of image-things that seem to fade in and out of popularity. In the RWS one can barely see the "face" epaulets on the Charioteer which are present in the Marseille BUT reappear in some Waite look-alikes. But I'm d*mned if I can see "Inverted Runes" and some of the more exotic claims... On the eclipse, I am more realistic. I assume if one looks hard enough one will find that there is probably a convention for representing the sun and the moon - in medieval iconography? It's a nice notion maybe? But I do suspect some of the creators of the Tarot were able e.g. to go on "eclipse expeditions" etc. I suspect many would have been genuinely interested in such things? But this might also reflect the apparent time some of them they had on their hands... and also something to do with the expression "independent means" }) Macavity Guilty of mild pretension - QED?

The veiled apparitions in the RWS Eight of Cups!!! thread was originally posted on 21 Feb 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.