Death......where is thy sting?????

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	27 Mar 2003
It’s not that I’m afraid to die. I just don’t want to be there when it happens Woody Allen I have often thought about death and find it the least of all evils Francis Bacon The death card came up in a spread that Kitty did in Your Readings just recently. It was one of the few times I’ve seen the Death card interpreted in a literal sense really positively and Alex, whose brilliant interpretation it was, suggested that we start a new thread. I did a quick search through the archives and it seemed quite a while since we’d had a discussion about Death (although it is hard to tell with the myriad posts) and it wouldn’t hurt to have another go at it. The card used to give me the chills on first acquaintance. As the weeks went by the metaphorical allusions kicked in. i.e. Death signifies change, transformation, the end of many things, not just lives, rebirth ……………and so on. I’m looking at three Death cards right now. Morgan Greer’s Death is a skeletal Grim Reaper against a gothic landscape of blood red sky and eerie castle. A white rose nestles very much in the right forefront. The Tarot of the Old Path renames Death as The Close and shows a cloaked and skeletal Grim Reaper on the shore of a beautiful lake looking across at a young child. Tarot of the Sephiroth shows a dancing skeleton surrounded by the symbols of Death - Scorpio, fish, and winged snake. All of these cards feature the Skeleton and the scythe as the uncompromising symbols of death. All of them also have symbols representing new life or the release of energy on the physical plane. Quite frankly, I am interested in death on a literal and a metaphorical level. I am of an age where as Jung puts it “……………the Soul begins its secret work of getting ready for the departure. Out of the turmoil and terror of our life, the one precious flower of the spirit begins to unfold – the four - petaled flower of the immortal light. ………And the Soul goes about its secret work of purification”. That is quite a sweet way of putting it. Now I am NOT old but middle aged and you do start to reflect on these things. Hmmmm……….Well that’s fairly uncompromising. The Death card has developed a new depth of meaning for me. In thinking about Death I’ve gone from the initial chill to appropriate euphemism to serious reflection. To be honest, I rarely get Death in my personal readings but when I do, there is usually a profound message. I am not afraid, simply interested and there is certainly a transformational issue happening for me right at the moment. Don’t send the condolences or flowers. I feel I’ve got a way to go yet :D And lots of things to enjoy before departing the mortal coil. What does the Death card mean to you? Moongold

coldsuns	27 Mar 2003
Death is one of my favourite card! The first time i saw,"Death" in a spread. I'm afraid and thought that something bad will happen. But after reading some websites and books, it means changes, reborn, end of things and so on..Whenever i say "I've Death in a spread" to my friends, they will surely scold me and say,"Can you stop using that word? Are you waiting for someone to die?" Actually i'm hoping for changes in my life. When people dont understand the word and just looking at the "top" of it, they just spout nonsense. Death is cute and cool! =X

Inana	27 Mar 2003
To be honest, i like the Death card. Im a Scorpio, and i see in this card not only the death or the end, but also a big power. Something like "the end is the begining". Its hard to explain...The only what we know for sure in this life is that we gonna die someday. And at the same time, all the things and subjects have a begining and an end. The death stands for all this endings. So, we dont have to be afraid of death, its a natural process. Throws away the old stuff. Thats the only way to make room for the new experiences. It hurts because we dont like to lose what we love, but at the same time, thats the more efective way to appreciate things: because we know we dont will have it always. What im saying here is that death or changes are not desired for us most of the times, but it doesnt mean they are not needed. The destroying energy its necessary in life and universe to allow generate new things, to make complete the vital cicle, to evolve. Thats why the Death its looking at the future and not at the past (at least is that way in the Marseille and the RiderWaite decks), wich means: some things end, but life goes on. Dont look at what its ended, look at the new situation. Death advances killing the past, with her infinite empty eyes, that are like dark holes in the universe: openings to another dimensions. The scyte points radical changes: it cuts, its fast, and also is a symbol for the harvest wich is done when the cicle of the vegetables growing is completed. If you let the cereals there, they are going to rot, but if you harvest then, you can use it (like the experience collected in life) and make the land ready for seed new ones. Mmmh im making too long and even dont know if you were asking about this stuff or more thinking about the death out of tarot. Anyways, in real life, death its frightening but not for itself. I mean i dont belive most of the people is afraid of dying, but because the suffering of losing the ones we love.

Kiama	27 Mar 2003
Whenever I got Death in a reading for another person, I used to always say the same old thing... 'Death doesn't mean physical death, merely the death of the old, making way for the new, turning over a new leaf...' I said this all the time, until one reading, where the querent's question was about her terminally ill son (MS or something). He was close to death, and he was in constant, terrible pain. The reading I did for gave us 8 of Swords, Death, Judgement. To me, this represented her son and her family feeling limited and bound to his pain and suffering at th emoment, with a deep longing to try and get out of it, but with no way to.... Then Death... I struggled, and realised, 'Yes, it means change and leaving behind the old making way for the new..' And in this case the OLD was Life itself, and the NEW was the non-suffering, the relief... And Judgement was a rebirth for the family, a process of getting rid of the pressures and pain they had been under for so long... The process of letting their son go. This is the only time I have seen Death as physical death, but I now would not hesitate to say physical death in a reading if I saw fit... After all, the Death card is about change and leaving behind the old, often painfully, (This card doesn't seem to have room for gentle change!) and sometimes that change is death itself. Kiama

Athara	27 Mar 2003
Death can be, in my opinion positive. But, the scyte she is holding isn't sharp to me. It means, I think, leaving behind something, closing a period in your life. But it will be painful. You won't like it at first, it will be rough to get through. But then there comes a better period, and only then will you see that it has been for the good of things. I surely hope I will never encounter the Death card as a physical death. Apart from that aspect, it's a rather positive card.

Alex	27 Mar 2003
mourning of a loss. It does not have to be physhical death (and besides if it's yours you won't have a lot of mourning afterwards) but it is something we are called to stop and mourn. I think it was in the Mythic deck book I read this: our culture concentrates more on the "what's behind" than in the process of getting there itself. Even apparently happy things sometimes have an aspect of Death we tend to ignore. Marriage, birth of a child, graduation (that's my next), retirement etc: we tend to look at the "new life" and sometimes forget that the old one deserves a funeral of it's own. So many times after I married I felt so empty and sad and missing my parents and my old "me", I'd never thought I would feel that way. May be I failed to worship the right god before I got married... Death card is dark and sad, and we can allow ourselves to have the proper reaction to it when we come accross it, rather than fooling ourselves it's another version of The Sun card and screaming in excitement "oh that must be my luky day... The Death card!... something anew will begin!!!". Just relax and reflect on what Death means to you, and how it feels to remember you're gonna die one day, and that every single one dear to you will, sooner or later, join the crowd. Also, every single thing we look at will disappear one day. Death is everywhere. We live on Death. We kill daily in order to be kept alive: animals, plants, microbes. Our lives are in a sense the juice of Death. If we all thought more of Death it would be more likely we would not be in a war right now. As I've said before, what makes me suspect people are in fact affraid of the Death card is that they issue interpretations that seem to be in complete DENIAL of the Death part of Death. Thanks Moongold, for initiating this thread. It's fun. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold [i] What does the Death card mean to you? Moongold

HOLMES	27 Mar 2003
i still say DEATH DOENS'T MEAN YOU GOING TO DIE . but then i say it does mean the natural law of order is occuring and that death comes to us all. to phrase this i describe that groundhog day movie. where no matter bill murray did, the old homeless man died. so it didnt show past the part where bill murray looked up to heaven after the last try to save the old man. in my mind i like to think he understood that the old man was destined to die that day and the best he could do is to see him live comfortably and happy that day. so when death is reversed we are fighting death nature itself. i am wondering if it is futile to do so, and i think it is old people will pass, new babies will be born, sometimes we can postpone it by beating cancer, or saving a person in the hospital. yet as they say in the braveheart movie "you see death comes to us all" she tells the dying old tryant before he dies. my favourite line of braveheart that describes to me the choices we make is . "that's it let go home i ain't dying for these bastards" yet then braveheart says every man dies, not everyone get a chance to live .. parphrased been awhile since i seen it. what does death mean to me besides movie quotes and movie scenes ? it means having to put a baby mouse outside because the lady i was staying with didnt' want mice in the house. i put it outside as i refused to kill it. still outside it was sure to die.

wolfen045	28 Mar 2003
I think the Death card has multiple layers of meaning. Yes it can mean a physical death for the querent ( his/her relatives,friends, etc.) but it can also mean clearing the deck (pun intended) to make way for the next "thing". As a pagan, I have a firm belief in reincarnation. I can not claim to fully understand the Eastern concepts/doctrine of Karma~~ but I think we make choices in this life based on past exsistences which will affect future incarnations. I think even in the non-literal sense the death card can still have that meaning. Most big changes in life can come about as the result of often painful choices. I feel that the Wheel of LIfe/Fortune is gonna keep on rolling. We can learn to ride it or be run over by it. Often the biggest, most painful changes can lead to more joy than we can ever imagine or hope for. Blessings and Joy to All, Wolfen

Alex	28 Mar 2003
I would not be able to recognize it (i.e. predict physical death) in a reading unless I new from another that the person was gonna die. Like someone who's very old or terminally ill. I simply would not know how to pinpoint such prediction otherwise. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Kiama This is the only time I have seen Death as physical death, but I now would not hesitate to say physical death in a reading if I saw fit...

Emily	28 Mar 2003
Usually when I see the Death card, I read it as big changes coming into someones life, maybe not what they want but these changes could be for the better - Sometimes though Death does mean Death and I think sometimes this card hangs around in readings just to make that point. A couple of weeks ago I did my husbands cards for him, nothing special just a 3 card past, present, future - the two past and present cards were very positive but he got Death for the future card. I said maybe it was because his job was changing and he wasn't very pleased with the changes and left it at that. A day or so after that I was thinking of my husband when I was shuffling my Rohrig and again the death card fell out. I shuffled the deck again and did a clarifier card - again Death. I was a little worried by this time as my husband was at the time on the motorway coming home so I phoned him to tell him to drive safely. I didn't do my husbands cards again but tonight he's phoned and one of his friends got killed tonight, in an accident, but my husband worked with him for most of the day, then he died in the late afternoon. My husband didn't see him die but its hit him hard. I was shuffling my Thoth cards earlier on and was thinking of my husband and again the Death card fell out. I think this is why, I've just done a spread for my husband and no death card.

Silverlotus	28 Mar 2003
Death has been a difficult card for me. Not because of the meaning, but rather because of how it is depicted. I assume that the skeleton is still used in many decks because it is "traditional". I like the way Death is shown in the Robin Wood Tarot. It shows a red-robed figure standing at a crossroad. He (or perhaps she) is blocking one of the paths and pointing down the other. Both paths are rocky, and look rather similiar. It sort of reminds me of The Road Less Travelled by Robert Frost. Actually, the idea of change, of taking a different road, is what I think of when Death comes up in a reading. I don't like change. I lament about it constantly to my boyfriend. Two friends are getting married this year, another one is moving away, another one moved last year. All these things upset me. But change happens, and you grow and adapt. Sometimes you wonder what might of happened if you had taken that other road, but in the end life is better for the path you did take.

Alex	29 Mar 2003
"Death" as "Death", more pure and simple in poetry: http://www.bartleby.com/248/80.html Alex. ' So live, that when thy summons comes to join The innumerable caravan, which moves To that mysterious realm, where each shall take His chamber in the silent halls of death, Thou go not, like the quarry-slave at night, Scourged to his dungeon, but, sustained and soothed By an unfaltering trust, approach thy grave Like one who wraps the drapery of his couch About him, and lies down to pleasant dreams." WILLIAM CULLEN BRYANT

Major Tom	29 Mar 2003
To quote Paul Foster Case from his The Tarot - A Key to the Wisdom of the Ages: "It is by death that social changes for the better come to pass. Old ideas pass away with the death of the persons who hold them. New ideas gain currency as the new generation comes to maturity. The the actual fact of death is an instrument of progress." To further quote Dr. Case from The Book of Tokens - Tarot Meditations: "Change perpetual is at the root of all things, And change hath two faces, A face of life, and a face of death. For know ye, ... That what men call life and death Are as beads of white and black strung upon a thread; And this thread of perpetual change Is mine own changeless Life, Which bindeth together the unending series Of little lives and little deaths." In other words Death is an intrinsic and indeed positive part of Life. So naturally, I believe Death is God too. })

WolfSpirit	29 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Silverlotus Death has been a difficult card for me. Not because of the meaning, but rather because of how it is depicted. I assume that the skeleton is still used in many decks because it is "traditional". I quite like skeletons actually :D they remind me of halloween and pirates. I have never seen this card as physical death yet. I see it as a sign you have to let go of something that is no longer of use to you, sometimes it can be a relief but sometimes it is hard. All through your life you accumulate friends, thoughts, books and if you would keep everything you would end up with so much you would have nothing substantial, just little bits of everything which is why you have to lose some of it. But sometimes you have to leave things you really don't want to, especially if you have a lot of changes you have to give yourself enough time to digest it all. Then again sometimes it just feels good to get rid of some things. The longer you wait to make the necessary changes, the more painful it may be - once you have closed a period in your life you can start building a new one.

Kitty	30 Mar 2003
Thanks Moongold and Alex for starting this discussion :) Death - it is a card that I rarely like to see in my spreads because I am terrible at leaving the past behind. Possibly how you look at change relates to how you look at the Death card - are you nervous or excited? So far in readings Death has appeared when life changes where present, it has appeared when a relationship is about to end. The life changes - new home, some friends moving away, new friends made etc where all quite pleasant. Death in terms of relationships was not so pleasant. So my opinion on the Death card - some part of your life, be it your work, your relationship, your study, in fact any part of your life is coming to and end. Death is a natural process - so it is time for the death of this aspect. The lesson is not to be too scared, try and see it as a positive change - allows the outdated to pass and let in the new. Yes, sometimes the Death card if shown with 5 or 8 of cups, can be a time of mourning for what is over. I have had the Death with the 6 of swords - looking back - that experience was not so painful as I had the swords logic to overcome emotion pain. Hmmmm have had the Death card alot in hindsight!! Maybe he (or some odd reason I see the death as a he) has been trying to give me a hint - "let the old go, let it go!!" :)

The Death......where is thy sting????? thread was originally posted on 27 Mar 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.