Divining? or Creating? the future with cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	29 Mar 2003
I have often wondered whether the act of reading for oneself doesn't rather create the future, than divine it. Last night, for a lark, I asked my LS Primavera deck, "What will I dream about tonight?" I drew the Nine of Swords. In this deceptively light deck, the nine of swords is one of the most beautiful cards. It is one of the rare cards where the stylistic constraints of Art Nouveau (ŕ la Mucha) are relaxed to allow a full scene. A beautiful discheveled woman, lies sprawled and naked at the foot of her bed, head thrown back in anguish. There is a snake crawling down her body, (or perhaps just a ribbon). A skull and a dying candle rest on the bed; the window shows a crescent moon; the scene is bordered by skull-bearing moths I saw this and thought... uh oh! these are going to be nightmares! I rarely have bad dreams! Last night I had every bad dream in the book... You know -- snakes in the bed.... lots of them... long green, long yellow snakes... an evil woman with just one eye, then three eyes, that had to be stared down.. a man holding a bloodied knife to a baby... me trying to get him to stop... Tony Blair having an affair with a dancer... (LOL) oh, I can't remember any more, I had only to fall asleep for a second and new horrors would arrise, and I would awake myself with a scream! Must have happened at least 15 times.... I think I must have gone to bed saying "I am going to have nightmares" because of the card, and so I did.... I am interested in your thoughts, we all know the power of words to generate a reality... like wishes, prayers... so when reading for ourselves... do we invent our future? or guess it?

WolfSpirit	29 Mar 2003
I never ask the cards what I will dream about, but I think if you go to sleep with the fear of having nightmares, there is a great chance you will have them... I think with tarot we both predict and create: the cards show you a possible outcome, but if the outcome is bad you may get too frightened to take appropriate action and thus make your nightmares come true. Maybe you can elaborate on the spread by drawing extra cards to give you advice on how best to deal with the situation. Or you can meditate on a card that shows how you would like to deal with the situation. And all this is even more so with dreams, I see dreams as not something that is happening to you, but something you create yourself, it is the way your unconscious deals with real or imagined problems. Wonder where Tony Blair fits in though... })

firemaiden	29 Mar 2003
Sheesh, you've all gotten me believing in spooks, and now they are coming to feast on me!!! Just like it said in the Book of Sabaoth! Okay, Major Tom, Umbrae, jmd, We are going to have to have a little chat... Thanks Wolfspirit, our posts went up at the same minute! I think you are right! -- although, reflecting now... it certainly wasn't fear I went to sleep with... but rather amusement... oh well, perhaps it is time to fight the imagination with the imagination again...

Kiama	29 Mar 2003
I think that it is US that creates our own future, and whilst the cards can DIVINE it, we also can CREATE it at the same time, depending on our actions, and of course our attitude to what might happen. If we get a negative-looking reading, we have two choices... 1) Sulk and moan and groan and be pessimistic about the reading 2) Accept that it is one possible way that things could go, but be optimistic and try and change it. If we take the first course of action, we will most likely cause the bad things to happen anyway, because we are not trying to affect positive change in our lives at all, and our negative attitude is causing all sorts of negative occurances. People notice we're being negative and shun us, thus possibly fulfilling an 8 of Cups or reversed 9 of Cups. If we take the second course of action, we are at least being positive, and trying to affect positive change, so that we are ore likely to lessen any negative occurances, or through our happy atitude, make more happy occurances. I think... Kiama

firemaiden	29 Mar 2003
hmmmm... or perhaps by meditating on a very good card, or even painting it... we can create that good future to step into...

Major Tom	29 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I have often wondered whether the act of reading for oneself doesn't rather create the future , than divine it. I think it's a bit of both really. ;) There are things that happen to us that we have little or no control over e.g. the weather, natural disasters, other people etc. But it is our own perceptions that determine how we experience these things. Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I saw this and thought... uh oh! these are going to be nightmares! I think perhaps it was this thought that gave you the nightmares. I believe that everything we do, say, and yes even think, that creates our reality.

Marion	29 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I have often wondered whether the act of reading for oneself doesn't rather create the future , than divine it. Seriously firemaiden I consider that one of the biggest mental traps in all of divination. That the act of divining creates the future. No, it does not. That thought is what makes people be afraid to go and have mammograms or other tests. "If I don't know about it can't happen". It makes people think that tarot is devil's work (well, there are other ways people think that too, but it is one of them). You *did* plant the idea in your own mind though. The card did not say... you will have nightmares! You looked at the card and came to that conclusion. Lastly, from a long time sufferer of nightmares. When that happens, sleep with a nightlight on. It really helps for some reason. Marion

firemaiden	29 Mar 2003
Yes Marion!! Thank you! one of the thoughts that came up during this night-torture session, was -- oh please let it be daytime so I can sleep!!

HudsonGray	29 Mar 2003
Wow, you really put that card into your subconscious--we're all pretty suggestible when it comes to things, and when in the dream state they all come out. Just doing the reading produced the results. But I don't think it was a completely fair test, you inserted the info rather deliberately--bet you wouldn't have had anywhere near the problems if you'd have pulled the 10 of Cups or something benign. While people are suggestible on many levels, it's still up to them (and their subconscious) as to how much the reading interferes with or forms the future. There is a connection, but the overlap can vary wildly.

firemaiden	29 Mar 2003
or maybe... just maybe.... Iwould have had those dreams anyway. One of the dreams, was of pulling rotting flesh from my arm. "Very shamanistic" say Umbrae and Redwood. It is true, that big things, big changes are happening... the day before the dreams, I had a flash of terror... I was singing... and feeling like a big ball of fire... a ball of meteoric energy directed outward in a stream, energy I was receiving from above and back of my head, and directing through me out my mouth (duhh). It was like a huge breakthrough (singing wise), and long awaited. A flash of terror, later, in recalling the experience of being such an open channel, and so naked.... how do I describe the terror? it lasted only a nano second... So, why did I ask the cards that particular question on that particular night... (and you haven't asked me what the other cards were yet...hahahahah) There were the 5 of pentacles and the 8 of wands... I thought.... "so I am going to have a sad nightmare about catching butterflies?" (the catching butterflies is on the 8 of wands) This is all beginning to feel a little more significant than just trial by suggestion...

isthmus nekoi	29 Mar 2003
From my own experience/observations w/divining... You can't make god (or whatever you want to call it), you can't change what god is, you can't deny god etc. *But* if you're willing to do the work that goes along w/it, you can *shape* god, which is good enough. In other words, you can't change the getting the 9s if you got it. That's a fact, you can't change that. But you can have some degree of control over its manifestation. I think Kiama raises a good point about acceptance, and being in the right frame of mind. Only when that comes are you in the position to shape whether you are conscious of the action or not. As for visualization, yes, potentially a powerful exercise. But to become actualized, every action/plan must have corresponding outer and inner movements. Neglect one side, and it will ultimately fail. Good luck w/the dreams firemaiden ^_^

HudsonGray	29 Mar 2003
Firemaiden, try this! Pull a card tonight about what you'll dream about, but keep it turned upside down & don't look at it till tomorrow morning when you get up. That seems to be a better test of the technique. You won't predispose yourself to anything & if it fits, great, if it doesn't then you'll have a tad more info to go on. Try that every night for a week. I'd be interested to know the results.

RedWood	29 Mar 2003
Ohhh good idea Hudsongrey ::slaps forehead::

jmd	29 Mar 2003
Perhaps, at times, when one 'creates', in the very spiritual act of creation one allows oneself to open up to the guidance or inspiration of beings otherwise remaining veiled. In picking a card, a similar process may also occur... and in our very opening, at times also permit events to unfold in their own guided ways... But on another note, related to your dream - did you not, simultaneously, recognise a certain ardour of inner strength emerge from the pangs of discarded flesh? Do not, on some occasions, painful experiences strengthen, without hardening, the inner being - especially as one opens oneself to the universe? I do not personally agree that, in this case, the night's events were caused by subliminal seeds planted by one's own self by the thoughts arising from the card...

firemaiden	30 Mar 2003
Yes, jmd! thank you!! each of all of the extremely bizarredevents were accompanied by a sense of FEROCIOUS strength and power. That was even the thing about Tony Blair, hilariously, I had the keys to his office... I love Hudson Gray's idea. Very intriguing. Alas, it is too late to do this for last night.... and I don't remember dreaming...

coldsuns	30 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I love Hudson Gray's idea. Very intriguing. Alas, it is too late to do this for last night.... and I don't remember dreaming... Put a notebook and a pen by your bed. Repeat to yourself that you will wake up each time after you finish a dream until you sleep or you may record down and play it for half an hour. You might wake up at night and immediately record down what you dream before you forget. I saw this on a website. ^_^ Hope it works.

firemaiden	30 Mar 2003
oh cold suns, I just meant that I didn't remember last nights dreams! I usually remember my dreams, sometimes even do lucid dreams, and actually always have a pen and paper handy!

coldsuns	30 Mar 2003
Ok..sorry! You can try meditating to remember the dreams. It might help. My friend's parents does that before.

The Divining? or Creating? the future with cards thread was originally posted on 29 Mar 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.