r-e-v-e-r-s-a-l-s / distortion?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

joya250	20 Mar 2003
I know, I'm probably opening a can of worms here.... haha, but here goes.... (and if this is redundant, moderator, feel free to remove this post...) so we all know that some of us use reversals, and some of us don't, and that its "okay" either way, there's no "right" or "wrong"..... that said, here's my question (I had responded with this in the most recent reversals discussion, but pulled it out for a new thread, since I believe it's a separate thought.) I have found that once I know how to shuffle without creating reversals... it is tricky to purposely turn the cards to create reversals. I feel like I am distorting half the deck, on purpose... now why would you want to begin a reading with half the deck turned around? Isn't that skewing the reading... just "asking for trouble" when there may be none, in a sense. What is the purpose in setting up half the cards to that state? I feel like I'm poluting them! hmmm, anyone's feeling on this? My question here is WHY turn half the deck around on purpose??? I mean, if you shuffle and don't think about how you're doing it (or better yet, the querent shuffles) and reversals appear in the spread (and you read them)..... Great! But, how do you get the "random" reversals, if you are consciously creating them? argh. make sense? (Mojo don't shoot me!) :P joy

HudsonGray	20 Mar 2003
No, your question makes sense. But I don't feel like mine is being distorted. Every time I start a reading I shuffle 3 generic shuffles, then randomly turn sections around (chunk here, chunk of it there), then focus on the question & do my regular shuffling. this way it's randomized to the question, and each time I do a reading I do this, so the entire deck truly is randomized per question. If it didn't feel 'right' for me, I wouldn't do it this way. _______________________________________________ A Brief History Of Medicine: "I have an earache." 2000 BC - Here, eat this root. 1000 AD - That root is heathen, say this prayer. 1850 AD - That prayer is superstition, drink this potion. 1940 AD - That potion is snake oil, swallow this pill. 1985 AD - That pill is ineffective, take this antibiotic. 2003 AD - That antibiotic is artificial. Here, eat this root.

Astraea	20 Mar 2003
Yes, joya250, I feel the same way about "contriving" reversals. I solve the problem by not paying attention to which way the cards are facing when I shuffle. I figure that if a reversal is meant to happen, the mind-brain connection will create the appropriate conditions. :)

bec	20 Mar 2003
I have no idea of how many - half or more of deck is reversed, and I dont care :P It seems you are one of those that reads reversals as "trouble" and is that the case I can see why you see it as "asking for it". My reversals are not all dark and gloomy. Think of Tower, High Priestess, Hanged Man, 3-5-7-9-10swords, 4-5-7cups and 5-pents, not to mention 10-wands. They all got trouble in them, no matter you turn them round or not :D My point with reversals - Why only travel with half speed when you got what it takes to take full action ?????

Dark Inquisitor	21 Mar 2003
Dear Joy, I can tell from reading your post that you are very deeply embedded into your way of doing things. I suggest if you are serious about letting go of all this angst, that you put your deck on the table & begin mooshing it around in a big pile. Letting the cards turn whatever way they want to & trying to release whatever anxiety this causes you about outcomes & positionings. (Doing this every day until it feels comfortable might help.) Try not to label this action as disorganized or "wrong"- think of it as creative fun! Then take a deep relaxing breath and just gather up the deck & shuffle until it feels right to stop. Lay the cards out without considering the rightness or wrongness , the number of uprights & reversals, who is asking for it & who is not. Then just read whatever the deck tells you - you don't have to do or undo anything. Relax! It is really very simple. Tarotphelia

Lee	21 Mar 2003
Get ready for a cranky post! :P I am really tired of reading posts on this subject which are condescending toward people who read without reversals, suggesting that they have psychological problems and emotional difficulties just because they read without reversals. I hope I'm not overstating this here, but I feel that this violates the forum guidelines. We are supposed to feel free to discuss a poster's ideas, but when we start insulting members themselves as opposed to their ideas, then I think we've crossed a line. And yes, I think it's insulting to say that because someone reads without reversals, they have anxieties or hang-ups. Please, please, please, folks, if you like to read a certain way, it doesn't mean that others are wrong or have hang-ups. -- Lee

Diana	21 Mar 2003
Lee! Haven't seen you around a lot these days. You should hang out here more often! Actually, I get surprised that people who read with reversals normally get a lot more disturbed about people who don't read with reversals, than vice-versa. It is thought-provoking. joya: In life, one has to be comfortable with what one does, otherwise one is not being honest with oneself. If one wants to turn around half of one's cards and one feels good with this, then one will do excellent readings that way. If one is feeling uncomfortable doing this, it is highly likely that the readings will not be so great. Danny Kaye used to sing a lovely song. It was a song sung to Tubby the Tuba by a circus elephant. It went (I wish I could sing it!): Be yourself, You can't be anybody else. Be yourself. Is my advice to you Or else you'll always be a nobody So be yourself Or else. A hippopotamus Would look very curious Flying like a butterfly. A fierce and hungry lion Would look very silly trying To bake an apple pie. I think you'd get a laugh If you saw a tall giraffe Swinging by his tail from a tree. I think an octupus Would look quite ridiculous Knitting sweaters at the bottom of the sea. So...... be yourself And do the things that you know best. Be yourself I think that you'd be happiest By being no-one else But you.

Mimers	21 Mar 2003
Hi Lee, I didn't take this thread as insulting at all. I don't think anyones making anyone else feel less then perfect here. I got the impression that Joy truely wants to know if anyone feels the same as her about the reversals. Some others gave advise that might help her see it differently that's all. I have been reading without reversals too because I didn't know how to read them. When they came up it just seemed like an upside down card to me. There have been a few occations where reversed cards have popped up when I have done readings and I just try to go with it. I don't intentionally create them in my deck, but some just end up that way by accident. I have been starting to try the reversal thing and it is not going too bad. I look at the card as either being a blocked trait or perhaps something that should have more emphasis, or even the overindulgent sides of the trait, like the Q of Wands Rx I see as a very tempermental woman. I say do what you are doing and stay with what you feel comfortable with. If one day you decide to try it, great! if not great! Mimi

Marion	21 Mar 2003
Sometimes I do them and sometimes I don't. I have decks that are more or permanently in reversal state and decks that somehow I can't bring myself to reverse. I use them both. And frankly have no strong views either way. From an old thread, I think it was jmd who said tongue in cheek, "I do reversals, but only in moderation" *chuckle* works for me. ps love your poem Diana

Dark Inquisitor	21 Mar 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Lee **I am really tired of reading posts on this subject which are condescending toward people who read without reversals, suggesting that they have psychological problems and emotional difficulties just because they read without reversals. __I am assuming you are referring to my post. I am sorry if this upsets you Lee. ** I hope I'm not overstating this here, but I feel that this violates the forum guidelines. __Feel free to request the cancellation of my membership if you wish, I will not mind. **We are supposed to feel free to discuss a poster's ideas, but when we start insulting members themselves as opposed to their ideas, then I think we've crossed a line. And yes, I think it's insulting to say that because someone reads without reversals, they have anxieties or hang-ups. __I don't know anybody without anxieties . (including myself) They are just a fact of life we all share. Maybe it is my statement that Joy seems deeply embedded in her way of doing things that is irritating. But if you read her post, this is what she is saying herself in her description of her feelings. If she weren't , she wouldn't have the feelings of unease that she describes. I guess I don't view it as insulting to have anxieties & to discuss them in regard to comparatively minor things like cards. It seemed pretty tame compared to other things discussed on this forum. But, maybe there should be clarification for the sake of future order. If there could be a list compiled of things that should never be discussed & ideas one should never have or express, it would be helpful. Tarotphelia

Alex	21 Mar 2003
I didn't understand Tarotphelia's post as stating such. There is a long way between what she wrote and your interpretation of it. Quote: For god's sake. One thing that REALLY irritates me in this forum is a tendency to over-react and make a flood out of a drop of water. Not to talk about mis-quoting people and reacting with violence against the slightest_immagined_provocation. We all like to believe it's a *peaceful forum* and that we are *spiritually evolved* as human beings but the reality is sometimes very different. There is a war out there for puddles of oil: that should be enough for bloodshedding; so let's not make another one here for nothing. Alex. EDITED TO COMPLY WITH THE MODERATOR'S RESONABLE REQUEST TO STICK WITH THE SUBJECT: I do think- even though I would need to see it demonstrated more systematically- that using reversed cards adds information that is more readily available and direct than accessing cards' "aspects". That seems to be more important in throws with a fewer number o cards, once one decides whether cards are "well-dignified" or "ill dignified" by comparing it with the surrounding cards. Reducing the matter to the absurd, in a one-card reading one cannot access the card's "aspect" by looking at accompaining cards. The problems seems to diminish as cards are added to the spread. Conversely, if one reads long spreads with fixed positional meanings, like "what is the matter", then "how to solve it" etc, or better saying, a spread composed by several "one card readings" then the problem with dignities may not be so "reduced". Alex. Reversed cards

Diana	21 Mar 2003
Oopsydaisy (or however you spell it). Over-reactions I certainly see in this thread. As moderator I would appreciate it if people tried to stay as closely as possible to the subject of the thread. A bit of straying to the left or the right is quite welcome, however, but right now we seem to be veering off into emotional upsets. Can we get back to Joya's original post please? Reversals seems to be a topic which comes up frequently, like the weather. :) For those who expect perfection on the Aeclectic Tarot forum, I am sorry..... but you'll have to come back next year. We're working on it, but are waiting for some spare parts that have not yet arrived. It's the Tarot Gods' fault - they spend their time playing Tarot (the game) and forget that we have placed this order ages ago. But please stick around with us in the meantime - we'll do our best not to disappoint you. Reversals anyone? Joya's original question is actually one that has not been brought up in such detail before, so it would be interesting to hear what people have to say.

Lee	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia [b__i don't know anybody without anxieties . (including myself) [/b] Hey Tarotphelia, maybe you could lessen your anxieties if you learned to read without reversals. Just kidding!! }) -- Lee

Faerie Lin	21 Mar 2003
Hi Joya! Well I subconsciously shuffle turning my right hand around, so its not that I am strictly thinking about putting reversals in there (come on Reversals!!!! Big Money Big Money!!!! lol) Maybe its a past life thing! I tried shuffling the nonreversal way one time and didn't feel right or natural at all, as you said the reversal way didn't feel right to you. Also as previously posted, revervals don't always mean something negative. Each card, reversed or not, has a chance to be either positive or negative, depending on the whole story.

joya250	21 Mar 2003
come on tarotbuddies, play nice! :) haha. sorry that my question caused some ruffled feathers. I do appreciate the responses.... let me restate that I don't feel either way is "wrong" or that I am so deeply embedded in doing things a certain way. (ahem, tarotpheila) ;) (though I will reflect on your post.... maybe it is something I don't see about myself.) really wondered the point in purposefully re-arranging your deck to promote reversals instead on letting them come naturally. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "pollute" which seems to have a conotative meaning. I guess one way of looking at it is that the world is made up of polarities, and to get a truly "accurate" reading, one would have to cut and flip the deck in half to mirror this earthly phenonmon. hmmmm, and if that's the case, I think I could "bring myself" ;) to do this with my deck, since it seems to made more sense than just flipping the cards for flipping's sake. (really I'm not a stick in the mud! promise!) Faire Lin, I wish I could get back to shuffling like you do! I used to be an unconscious flipper to (btw, you crack me up with the Big Money... hee hee)... but once I learned that there was such a thing as reversals, and if you DIDN'T want them you shuffled a certain way... then I was stuck! (not unlike a stick in the mud, I guess).... cause once I'm aware that doing something gets me certain results, I just can't unlearn it! anyway, thanks guys. ps. Diana... wanna sing that for us? :P

Kirali	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by joya250 really wondered the point in purposefully re-arranging your deck to promote reversals instead on letting them come naturally. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "pollute" which seems to have a conotative meaning. I guess one way of looking at it is that the world is made up of polarities, and to get a truly "accurate" reading, one would have to cut and flip the deck in half to mirror this earthly phenonmon. hmmmm, and if that's the case, I think I could "bring myself" ;) to do this with my deck, since it seems to made more sense than just flipping the cards for flipping's sake. (really I'm not a stick in the mud! promise!) I'm sort of confused! :) Could you expand on what you mean as "letting them come naturally"? Because I'm getting the implication that the way you shuffle is the "natural" way. I don't really think there is just one natural way. I think there is the way that feels best to yourself and that is unique and whichever one gives you the best results or feels the most comfortable to you. So bridge shuffling may feel the most comfortable to some and the most random to some. I don't think that it means that bridge shuffling would be "unnatural". Anyway it's been said before "do what you like or feel that is best". If reversals make you cringe then don't do them. If they make you go "aha!" then do them! Not trying to stir up trouble! Just trying to point out that there isn't just one way to shuffle and that's not necessarily a bad thing. :)

raeanne	21 Mar 2003
Hi all, What are we actually talking about when we talk about “reading reversals”? Are we talking about just the physical act of actually turning some of the card around during the shuffling process or are we talking about reading both the yin and yang meanings of a card? Just because someone doesn’t actually physically reverse some of the cards doesn’t mean they aren’t using the full meaning of the card. Sometimes I will have a card right side up but because of the position, the relationship with the other cards, and my own intuition, I know the card has a reversed meaning and I read it as such. Is that “reading reversals” or not? To me, “reading reversals” means reading both the yin and yang meanings of a card and not so much depending on the physical presentation of the card. Other may see this differently. So, maybe we should define this a bit better.

Diana	21 Mar 2003
I think what is meant here is the actual physical turning the cards so that some of them come out up-side-down in a reading. But I agree with you wholeheartedly, raeanne, the different nuances can be read whether the cards are physically up-side-down or not. But some people prefer to see them up-side-down. I also find it very artificial to make some of the cards up-side-down when I shuffle. The way I shuffle (it was the way I learned when I was a kid, so it's kind of natural to me) makes it that the cards are always upright. Recently however, for some strange reason, one card appeared up-side-down in a reading. I couldn't figure out why though, and I left it up-side-down.

joya250	21 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kirali I'm sort of confused! :) Could you expand on what you mean as "letting them come naturally"? Because I'm getting the implication that the way you shuffle is the "natural" way. I don't really think there is just one natural way. I think there is the way that feels best to yourself and that is unique and whichever one gives you the best results or feels the most comfortable to you. So bridge shuffling may feel the most comfortable to some and the most random to some. I don't think that it means that bridge shuffling would be "unnatural". I'm not saying some ways of shuffling are unnatural. just wondering if people PURPOSEFULLY turned the cards around to create reversals.... or if they did or if they didn't, if they consciously thought about it.... or if they did or if they didn't, if it how they felt about it, or if they did or they didn't, if it crossed their mind, or whatever. I also was just venting about how it's personally hard for me to KNOW that I am consciously picking up a deck and flipping the cards around to create reversals... and the whole "natural" thing is if you don't have a thought cross your mind like "I am now flipping the deck to enable a greater likelyhood of a reversed card".... Truth be told, I am more likely to NOT flip the cards around if I am reading for myself. And I'm not talking about whether to read reversals or not... just the act of creating the reversals. I hope that's more clear. I, like many others, am not looking to have a repeat discussion on a familiar topic. And, like many others, know it's "okay" to do it how you feel is right, whatever that may be. I am just trying to find out if other tarot people ever have (or have had) this "dilemma" and if so, what they've done about it, etc. cheers! :)

HOLMES	21 Mar 2003
the difference between reversals and uprightals is one card is reversed to show a denied or blocked energy (or in some cased a total reversals of fortune ) and the uprightals rely on the overall message followed by the surrounding cards. yet in the reversals the surrounding cards and elemental diginities can be used to double the effect of what exactly is blocked and denied. i don't see that reflected if i used uprightals. that being the case it is true i always used reversals eheh. as such i usally take the deck and make two piles , then three and sometiems four. then i take the deck and turn half upside down,, and then i shuffle it in little groups (take an certian number from the front and drop it to the back and do it again, varying the size,) then i take the deck and turn upside down a quarter of the deck,, a half of the deck , it varies uncertain. then i go through the whole process again 1. i make sure the deck is througly shuffled. i also shuffle the deck with the back to me so i can't see the pictures as when i first learned it was because i had the belief if i shuffled them with the pictures facing me i could subsconsiouly somehow influence the shuffling. :O) i don't have half the deck uprightal or reversals per se, but where the shuffling took me, (eheh sometiems when i shuffle i put them downa bit to get a drink and shuffle again ) i myself see reversals as more truth, like i admit this is reversed , denied, blocked, but how ? that is what reversals do for me .

firemaiden	21 Mar 2003
what an interesting thread. I missed all upsettals...well we've been down this road before... Lee might have been reacting to some other threads... bit of an old sore subject, it seems. But then again, that's why joya was careful not to say the word itself, but to just spell it out quietly... I like to use reversals when they make sense in the spread. If not, I just wait until the angels who lined up the cards aren't looking, then I turn it back right side up... shhhhhhhhhhhhh

HOLMES	21 Mar 2003
*pictures firemaiden saying to the angel .. "LOOK THERE GOES ELVIS, " the angels goes where and start to look around. and she quickly smoothes over and say "oh he said he was going to heartbreak hotel around the corner " the angel smiles knowlingly .. sure he is ,, my dear i love you and shall not judge you , for you are as i am a peace of the creator" shhhhh she says ,, your blubbering is stopping me from reading the tarot .. and pokes the angel in the angel ribs.. and out of the angel mouth falls angel cake. ah good i was hungry she says .. now what does temperance reversed mean,, hey angel is that you on this picture .... * HOLMES THE PURPLE SQUIRREL OF LIGHT OF THE TEMPLE OF PUMPKIN IMAGINES as he stares off into the disance edite to say i just read the reply so i put it back eheh

firemaiden	21 Mar 2003
WAY TO GO HOLMES THE PURPLE SQUIRREL OF LIGHT OF THE TEMPLE OF PUMPKIN IMAGINES I knew that purple squirrel of light was getting hungry hanging upside down by the tail, see who came down and stole my angel cake. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaanh

Icestorm	22 Mar 2003
.................... The randomness of some people on this forum never ceases to amaze me :-p

firemaiden	22 Mar 2003
Sorry Icestorm, I was teasing Holmes, because I don't recall seeing him of all people so silly before... so I figured he was demonstrating the concept of reversals itself by hanging upside down as a squirrel... As for randomness, is it pure random coincidence that you speak of randomness here? or had you just read my post on randomness????

KelarSkye	26 Mar 2003
When I first read your post I envisioned shuffling to NOT get reversals...shuffling the "natural way"...and shuffling with turns to create reversals. I have to read reversals because I can't shuffle the deck straight and I can't turn the cards over once they are upside down (I remember which ones were flipped). I am considering reading only with Major Arcana reversals because the old style tarot decks without illustrated minors don't really seem reversed, so I question the likelihood of them actually ever beign read reversed. Anyway, I was considering my shuffling and now I have to watch it and see because I think that just shuffling naturally might actually create a static in my cards. I need to see if the same ones continue to be reversed because I don't make some turns before shuffling anew. Wow, now I am concerned about my shuffling style, I am going to have to look at exactly how I shuffle and how/if I ever turn the cards. Kelar

wolfen045	30 Mar 2003
I find this thread interesting. Before I joined Aeclectic, I never gave much thought toward reversals. I never knew this was a hot button topic to bring out sooo much emotion in people. As I have said elsewhere in this forum on a similar question, I just shufffle my deck as is. I have really bad arthritis in both hands and have a hard time shuffling as is. I am constantly dropping cards and picking them up and and adding them back in. My worry about "revesals" is making sure all the backs of the cards are facing toward me while i am shuffling!! If cards come out reversed in the technical sense I read them that way as being meant to be that way. Blessings and joy to all, wolfen

LadyMedusa	31 Mar 2003
As a still wet behind the ears ( dripping actually ) relearning reader I am not comfortable yet with reversals. I do think they have a place in readings, I'm just not comfortable physically reversing the cards yet I don't know that I will ever be. I do have Mary Greer's book and it is next in line to the one I am working through now. After studying it I will see what feels right and follow that path. That said, there are times when an upright card just does not make sense or "feel right" in the context it presents itself. Not to be confused with the "ok I just went over this one yesterday now what was it" feeling, or the "I'm missing something important here" feeling. This novice readers reaction after the mental hamster gets lost in the tarot files section is to grab the book and look it up. I am finding more and more that the reversal or alternate meanings make sense within the context of the cards. When to apply the reversal or alternate meanings I am finding ( for me at least ) means simply to listen to my own inner teacher and go find more information when the need arises. To physically reverse the cards is a choice made either on a conscious or sub-conscious level by shuffling. Even the vigilant non reversing shuffler can slip once in a while. It doesn't feel right to me. I have to stop and right the cards. I think it's more important to listen to the cards. LadyMedusa

Ariana	31 Mar 2003
You really started a "thread of worms" here. :) I have recently joined this forum myself, and I must admit I am surprised how this subject makes people react, really react. First of all I must say that I don't read reverseals right now, but I used to. Joya, I agree with you, I feel upset myself with the procedure you mentioned. Shuffling, separate the deck in two piles for example and turning one of them upside them. The few times I tried that method I felt like I was distorting the deck on purpose and most of the times when performing the reading afterwards all I got was reverseals. The main upsetting to me then, with this "method" is that I get too much reverseals. When I read reverseals I made a different preparation of the deck with which I felt more comfortable since it was very personal. I shuffled major arcanas only and then put them on the table in the shape of a fun. I had the querer chose 5 cards from it. When they gave them back to me I turned them upside down and put them back on the deck. Then I did the same with the minor arcanas, but made the querer chose 9 cards. When both major and arcanas were done, I put them all together and shuffled the whole deck. Made 3 piles, made one again, and I started with the reading. I have to add that the quantity of the minor and major arcanas picked up depends on the spread itself. This is my method, but I only leave it for very special readings, since I have realized that sometimes the querer cannot stand with their anxiety for the reading to start! :) Ariana

bec	31 Mar 2003
and the only times I am having some hard times about it, is when I read with shapie, cause that deck dont like reversals. I shuffle and ..... hard to explain. I shuffle unevenly and twist some from time to time. It is so much easier done than said ! hehe

LadyMedusa	06 Apr 2003
For the record physically reversing cards doesn't seem right to me. (see my previous post in this thread 3rd one back). However it seems I have a deck that has its own ideas on the subject. A few days after posting I aquired a new deck The Quest. I sat down to do a new deck reading with it. While I was shuffling one of my dogs jumped on the bed and knocked the cards out of my hands. As I was starting to shuffle after picking them up I noticed that somewhere along the way I had reversed some cards. I was mumbling under my breath about not liking reversed cards as I righted them. On the first shuffle after I got them straightened a card flipped out ...Disappointment... maybe I should rethink this not reversing at least with this deck. Has anybody else ever had a deck experess an opinion like this? :confused:

The r-e-v-e-r-s-a-l-s / distortion? thread was originally posted on 20 Mar 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.