The Kings

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	13 Mar 2003
Our recent discussions about the Queens encouraged a little research from me about the Court cards. In my own readings I often see the Queens, rarely the Kings, occasionally the Knights and Pages. Until this evening if a King appeared in a reading I would not have known what to do with it. The point that came out in the discussion of Queen Wands that we attribute gender specific social constructions to the Court cards is a particularly valid one. Rachel Pollack deals with this issue and the potential role of court cards in the Tarot comprehensively in 78DW. She outlines the elements of each suite and describes how each Court card could be seen to represent particular aspects of the element. She doesn’t back away from the fact that traditional Tarot represents the social structures of the mediaeval times. Interestingly, she later developed her own tarot where gender roles were not relevant at all. Kings are regarded as representing social responsibility, power and success. King Wands, for example, could illustrate a strong minded individual, able to dominate others and to enforce his will. King Cups indicates a person of responsibility who is able to direct all his energies into social achievement. This King even has the fish of peace around his neck. King of Swords can represent force of intellect and King of Pentacles the authority that comes from huge wealth. The Rider Waite Smith Kings are quite intricately detailed, full of symbolism as are the Kings of the Old Path. The Kings of the Old English are almost effeminate in their beauty. The Morgan Greer Kings are fairly nondescript and the Kings of the Sephiroth have real power To be honest, it's a stretch for me to open my heart and mind to the Kings because I too am affected by my socialization and I don't feel easy with the gender allocation of characteristics. Queens represent intuitive and mysterious “female” characteristics and Kings represent the authority and power that come with status and behaviour in the world. I can’t remember the last time I saw a King in a reading. I see many of the characteristics that Kings are supposed to have in women. and it is uncomfortable to ascribe those to a male figure. Whenever an issue concerning men comes up for me it is usually the Emperor card which appears. The fact that Kings don't often appear may simply reflect the energy that is coming from me. Acknowledging the social constructs of gender, I’d be very interested to hear of others’ experiences with Kings. The former Australian Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam’ s years of government could be seen as exhibiting the mark of King Cups, for example. Perhaps Hilary Clinton could be seen as exhibiting attributes of King Swords. We don't often hear people speaking about the Kings in the same way as the do the Queens and that is indicative I think that these Tarot figures do not toch the same chord as the Queens. Moongold

Thirteen	13 Mar 2003
Very astute observations! I think what hits home is your observation that you usually get the Emperor for a man rather than any of the Kings. I think this is because the Emperor seems more of a real power in the cards than Kings. Afterall, in REAL mediaeval times, the Kings of small Kingdoms were often subject to a HIGH KING or Emperor. Thus, a queen on her throne seems a gracious hostess--that, after all, is where the Queen should be, at the castle, taking care of business, running things, while her husband is away at war. A King on a throne gives the impression that he's just waiting for orders from his superior, the Emperor. I suspect the real truth is that Crowley had it right. Moongold, would it alter your opinion of the Kings if you used a deck where KNIGHTS as matches to the Queens instead? Perhaps Waite got it wrong when he decided to make it "pages, knights, queen, king" instead of "princess, prince, queen, knight." Knights, afterall, are active, riding on their horses. Which is one of the reasons Crowley decided on them as the Queen's match--to make them active. A man in armor on a horse is where we see the testosterone. The power and romance of a King Arthur. This is a man who cares, who is the warrior-creator of the realm--out there among his people, a passionate leader, fighting for his ideas, questing after that holy grail. Not just sitting on his backside watching his jester. This arrangement would also sub "princes" for the traditional "knights." Which may correct whatever image you then have of "knights" in the court cards. Princes are potential heirs to the throne, eloquent, inspired, diplomatic represenatives of the Kingdom, young warriors of words (they're "Air," their job is to spread the word). Wang suggests that Princes ride in chariots, drawn by the energy of the Kingdom. Think of them as their dad's sales represenative. The father has a offer to make--he sends his son to hammer out the deal. Remember, Kings are Fire--that means that they're not just power, but energy. If it helps, think of them as IDEA men. As motivators--the kind of boss who creates the company, hires good people and inspires them to really do their jobs. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Rachel Pollack deals with this issue and the potential role of court cards in the Tarot comprehensively in 78DW....Interestingly, she later developed her own tarot where gender roles were not relevant at all. Likely because Ms. Pollack is a transexual. She use to be a He.

Moongold	13 Mar 2003
..to think of things this way. Thank you, Thirteen, for your response. Wasn't Lancelot a Knight in Camelot? I remember relating a lot more to him than King Arthur. The Knights of history and romance are far more attractive figures. I am soon getting a copy of the Thoth and will be interested to see how this deck works. Its perceived darkness has deterred me until now. I am going to think about this a lot more. It helps also to think of the Kings as energy - an element more than anything else. A quality. You've opened up some other ways of thinking, and it doesn't hurt to stretch the boundaries of one's own stereotypes, does it? At least that is so for me. I didn't know that about Rachel Pollack and it does give an added dimension to her work. Transexuality used to be another thing I struggled to understand many years ago but not now. Just off the top of my head, the only other deck (apart from Shining Tribe) I know that completely renames the Major and Minor Arcana is the Osho Zen. Both Shining Tribe and Osho Zen don't have Kings or Queens per se and are gender neutral I think. Many thanks, Moongold

Alex	14 Mar 2003
they show up in my readings a lot. When I was growing up, except for my mom, sister, and elementary school teachers, every one was a man. My dad, my doctors, instructors, professors... Almost everyone in position of authority... Interestingly, now that I am 35 years old (except for my mom, whose authority over me I won't deny) if I am to name the five persons whom I have to report to, and who have "authority" over my life, they are all men. To me, connecting the image of older men with that of authority is just natural. Unlike many women, I don't care who has authority and power over me, AS LONG AS IT IS EXCERCIZED WISELY. From my personal experience (see, these are just personal and self-centered notes): King of Pentacles: One of my superiors will try to get extra-mural funding for my research. King of Cups: One of my superiors will sympathize with some issue I have and be supportive. If I'm sick then I should go see the doc. King of Wands: My father has had one more of his "ideas" that will make him rich without having to work. He is already acting as a millionaire and spending like one. King of Swords: someone in position of authority has taken/will take a ruthless decision in "my behalf". Now I'm so tired, I'm going to bed. Good night. Alex.

Moongold	14 Mar 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex ...... I am very drawn to the Kings they show up in my readings a lot. When I was growing up, except for my mom, sister, and elementary school teachers, every one was a man. My dad, my doctors, instructors, professors... Almost everyone in position of authority... This is interesting and touches on a point I made also. I don't have a great deal to do with men, except at work and then quite superficially often. The Tarot then reflects my own experience. If there is an issue about men that I need to deal with, the Emperor usually shows up. If Kings did appear then I would really think about what they might mean. However, we rarely hear the Kings being discussed. Not in the same way as the Queens. I wonder if this indicates the ready acceptance of the power and authority attributed to the male archetype. People can more easily assimilate that archetype into their consciousness and project less on to it because it is such a basic assumption? I have just got the Thoth and it will be interesting to see how using this deck without Kings feels. Moongold

Alex	15 Mar 2003
a woman in a position who is power-hungry is a b@tch, whereas a power-hungry man is a redundancy. If he's not power-hungry then there is a problem with him and he'll be told at some point to go see a therapist. There seems to be a clear "unconfortable zone" where the female principle meets the elements of fire and air, in a Queen. The Queen of Wands and the Queen of Swords are weird because their "elemental" properties don't go well with the female principle. On the other hand, earth seems to go very well in a King, and cups, oh well, an "emotional" man is a healer. The more passive, receptive elements don't seem to behave so unconfortably in combination with the masculine, male principle, as the other way around. OF COUSE these conceptions DO have to do with societal expectations. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold However, we rarely hear the Kings being discussed. Not in the same way as the Queens. I wonder if this indicates the ready acceptance of the power and authority attributed to the male archetype. People can more easily assimilate that archetype into their consciousness and project less on to it because it is such a basic assumption?

Moongold	15 Mar 2003
Alex, your fine scientific mind refers again to the elemental analysis and how important that is in understanding the differences The fire and air elements don't match easily with the association of the feminine with water! That is such a clear and obvious explanation and it makes a whole lot of other things easier to understand. This kind of analysis also takes everything beyond the bounds of the personal which is helpful. I've been doing some reading about archetypes. There is a very interesting book by Naomi Ozaniec called Tarot Handbook: Initiation into the Key Elements of the Tarot Strephon Kaplan Williams hypothesized seven archetypal levels in the Tarot: Self, Feminine, Masculine, Heroic, Adversity, Death/Rebirth and the Journey. It is avery interesting way to conceptualize the Tarot. With regard to the feminine: We are all born of the Mother...........her faces are many and varied. She is a Goddess bestowing gifts, a hideoous witch offering a warning, a temptress tempting a young man's fidelity. The Feninine always functions as an initiator into the emotional nature..... The masculine: ......most often appears as the hero..........in tales of kingship contest as both the king and the wise old man or wizard. Mythologically the kingdom provides a background for the interplay of a whole range of archetypes The feminine archetype seems to me to be more easily played out in our daily lives. It is such an integral part of the web of relationships and connections. The masculine archetype seems to require a more macro scenario where women are rarely present. This is evident from the world political scene to the football field Getting back to Kings the negative attributes of power aren't displayed so readily in the archetypal robes. The Kings seem associated with political, temporal power. I don't have problems at all with other male tarot figures: Magician, Hierophant, Hermit. The Sun is seen as masculine in Kaplan's model, and that is a bit more ambiguous' It just occurred to me that maybe human society is creating new scenarios for the archetypal interplay with the demise or irrelevance of the Kings......or have I jumped too far ahead into wishful thinking? Moongold

Alex	15 Mar 2003
Moongold, The little I know about some of these things is that the words "receptive" and "passive" have often been associated with the feminine principle whereas "active" has been often associated with the masculine principle. But these are in part myths. These myths are reflected in the discipline of biology in tales like "the sperm is active while the egg is passive". We learn in school that the spermatozoids actively race in order to reach a stupid, passive egg. The reality is a bit different. The female genital tract of many animal species can help direct the sperm towards the eggs, and the eggs are able to actively select gametes (sperm) rather than just passively wait for a race winner. The active role of the female in the reproductive process has been only recently acknowledged by some biologists, but the great majority of scientists only grant females the role of "choosing" or "selecting" a suitable male amongst many; and even this glimpse of active behavior is often twisted into a passive role like that "the males compete among themselves, and the best one is chosen by the female". Social roles have clouded not only our understanding of human relations, but also the very understanding of the way by which nature truly operates. The active/passive roles as attributed to male/female principles are in need of serious re-evaluation. On the other hand, men and women ARE different. We have different needs and different natures. These have to be acknowledged; otherwise we will be the ones to suffer the consequences of wanting to be "like" men. I am fine with the Kings, I like to have them around, and if they are the bosses, I'm fine with that too: as long as they are fair. Besides, men are such stimulating things to have around. Enough of that Alex.

The The Kings thread was originally posted on 13 Mar 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.