Thoth/RWS 7 of Disks (Pentacles)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 16 Mar 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Rusty Neon	16 Mar 2003
On the "Mutilating Thoth" thread, lawguy51 wrote: "I've been using the Thoth deck for over a month now and the keywords haven't bothered me until today. It was the 7 of Discs that did it. Although I use the Thoth deck and am getting better at the variance of meaning between it and the RWS, the difference between the RWS and Thoth deck with regards to the 7 of Discs is wide. Failure. That isn't what I'm used to thinking about when I see the 7 of Discs. I've always considered the 7 of Discs a positive card, a card of patience, letting plans take hold, or of deciding between something tried or true or taking a chance on embarking on something new. But in Thoth, failure, decay, loss, sober resignation. The only place where the two touch is with regards to patience. But then I thought, what the card was telling me today was to not fear failure, or more importantly, do not fear success. " Interestingly, according to the book to the Spiral Tarot, the meaning of the 7 of Pentacles in the Spiral Tarot is exactly that: Patience or Gestation. The woman in that card has planted 7 seeds (represented by pentacles) in the ground. Back to the Thoth and RWS ... On the 7 of Pentacles, Waite (Pictorial Key to the Tarot) wrote: "A young man, leaning on his staff, looks intently at seven pentacles attached to a clump of greenery on his right; one would say that these are his treasures and that his heart was there." This can be consistent with a meaning of Patience. However, the following description from the OGD's manuscript, Book "T", on the 7 of Pentacles is consistent with Crowley's view on the card and as depicted in the Thoth deck as Failure. This Book "T" description is also remarkably consistent with the pictorial imagery of the 7 of Pentacles in the RWS. As an ex-OGD member, Waite was careful not to betray OGD teachings, so in this case, maybe he illustrated the card consistent with OGD meanings but chose to describe it otherwise in the Pictorial Key to the Tarot. The OGD title for the card is Lord of Success Unfulfilled. Book "T" on the 7 of Pentacles: "Promises of success unfulfilled. ... Loss of apparently promising fortune. Hopes deceived and crushed. Disappointment. Misery, slavery, necessity and baseness. A cultivator of land, and yet is loser thereby. Sometimes it denotes slight and isolated gains with no fruits resulting therefrom, and of no further account, though seeming to promise well. According to dignity. " Thus, if you look at the RWS 7 of Pentacles card with an open mind, you can see these Book "T" meanings in the card's pictorial imagery.

Icestorm	17 Mar 2003
That's interesting, because on my 'RWS clone' Russian tarot of St.Petersburg the 7 of disks is also that, failure, disillusionment, plans all failing. (Come to think of it, so is my RWS based Ancient Egyptian) I had always considered the 7 of discs as a failure card. I guess I must look at the RWS cards harder to not miss these inconsistencies in the future!

Trogon	17 Mar 2003
Well... I guess just chalk it up to the differences between the Thoth and the Rider-Waite-Smith. I've been doing a kind of comparative study between the RWS and the Röhrig Tarot (Thoth based). Here are my notes on the meanings on this card; Quote: General; Stopping to admire your work. A pause in your labor, or a project. You must overcome the inertia in order to reach your goal. An incomplete job, creative blockage ("writer's block"). Stagnation of investments. Röhrig; Get off your butt. Things left unfinished, left hanging. Quick action is needed or failure is imenent. RWS; A chance to rest before further action will be needed - such as a garden before the harvest. Notice that the general notes that I came up with seem to apply to both decks. At least to me they do. However, the notes specific to the Röhrig Tarot are much harsher. This is, I feel, the heart of the difference between the two. Both relate to pauses in one's labor, but for somewhat different reasons and with different consequences. ... At least that's how I see it...

mj07	04 Oct 2004
time to resurrect an old thread, b/c I have problems understanding the difference between how these two cards are drawn/portrayed/interpreted, whatever! they seem to be such opposites, and, in terms of numerology 7s are "7. Analysis, understanding, knowledge, awareness, studious, meditating." (from astrology-numerology.com). From NumberQuest Quote: During the 7 vibration you will want to rest, reflect, and analyze your goals, relationships, and where you'd like to go from here. It is a time of introspection, so you may find it necessary to withdraw from life a little bit and go off by yourself. It is a good time to write about your contemplation, as your perception goes deeper now and you have the opportunity to tap into "higher knowledge", which could certainly benefit others as well as yourself. The 7 vibration is surrounded by an air of mysticism from ancient times. It governs the musical scale, the color spectrum, and even the days of our week. It is a time of completion. The icky side of #7 is emotional aloofness and intolerance which masks a deep fear of loneliness and isolation. There is a depth of introspective and intellectual focus available to the 7 which has the ability to tap into areas of the mind and spirit typically "underlooked" by the everyday world. This need for quiet, undisturbed "research" is a natural effect of the 7’s vibrational influence. The down-side is that along with vast amounts of wisdom and insight, an air of superiority, and a disdain for the "unenlightened" masses can emerge. Skepticism, confusion, faithlessness and feelings of the "uselessness" of it all can lead to melancholy and further emotional separation from other life-forms. Cynicism, "button pushing", and mental aggressiveness can also appear under stress. So, after all that (10 minutes of) research, I still can't see why the Thoth calls the 7 of Discs "Failure". To me, the card actually looks like seeds planted underground, germinating, waiting to spring forth at the right time. Patience. Waiting. Very similar, actually, to the WCS meaning!

ihcoyc	04 Oct 2004
The way I see it, all of the sevens indicate some kind of impulsive or instinctual activity in the fields governed by the suits. So in seven wands/batons you end up ready to take on all comers in a full frontal attack. In seven cups, your heart is pulled in all sorts of directions you may not wish to go upon reflection. In seven swords, you use cleverness and deceit to score some sort of goal. And in seven coins --- this could go either way. You may end up waiting patiently for the things of earth to bear fruit at their own long leisure. Or, you may experience this long term of no apparent and immediate progress as frustrated longing or desire. I can see how you could go either way with this one, and the two meanings might well relate to one another. They may be two sides of the same coin. The things of earth take a long time to bear fruit, and you may need them now.

krazymayj	04 Oct 2004
crowley created the thoth based on the lessons he himself learned from tarot. failure, to him, may be were if you dont get what you want now, you wont get it at all. or, worrying about success prevents success.

Mesara	04 Oct 2004
This is how I read the 7 of pentacles (using my Russian St. Pete): The chance to reap success and great rewards, depending on the amount of time and energy you spend cultivating the project. Careful tending, nurturing and care will in turn sprout a bounty of gifts. Reversed: Hard work with no pay-off. Despite your love and tender care that went into this, it will bring you nothing productive. A very bad investment. (The reversed meaning of this card is quite like Crowley's upright meaning, no?) Im curious as to why the difference in the two decks perception of that card bothers you so much? Isn't that kind of part of the joy involved in using a different deck?

mj07	04 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mesara Im curious as to why the difference in the two decks perception of that card bothers you so much? Isn't that kind of part of the joy involved in using a different deck? hmm... well, it's not so much that it bothers me, as confuses me! Maybe if I read more of the history of the Thoth it will be helpful. It's just that my first impression was that the meanings were nearly opposite, or at the very least, in conflict with one another.

Rusty Neon	04 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mj07 hmm... well, it's not so much that it bothers me, as confuses me! Maybe if I read more of the history of the Thoth it will be helpful. It's just that my first impression was that the meanings were nearly opposite, or at the very least, in conflict with one another. It can be worthwhile to peruse the Golden Dawn's manuscript Book T and its divinatory meanings (DMs) for the numbered minor arcana cards. As the Thoth and RWS are both GD-inspired tarot decks, the card keywords and DMs in the GD's Book T can help one to 'reconcile' the Thoth and RWS card meanings. As well, to reconcile the Thoth and RWS numbered minors card meanings, the Thoth keywords (being close variants of the GD ones) for the numbered minors are also useful.

Macavity	04 Oct 2004
Indeed, thanks for that Rusty. I sense perhaps Crowley is a bit more influenced by (or more au fait with?) the correspondences of the card i.e. the Sevens (generally), Rubeus (geomantic), Saturn (astrological), Netzach (Qabalistic) etc. Let's face it, this card may not have too much going for it! Though it might be that some of these attributes are interdependent? But Crowley's Saturnian cards are all pretty "dire" and I think this goes a *long* way to explaining any assumed anomalous meanings? ;) OTOH, I LIKE this card - Last Decan of Taurus and... Notably my own birthday - This maybe my significator. And, on the whole, I can't say I'm awfully surprised! :P Macavity

Mesara	04 Oct 2004
Yes, it can be confusing when your used to reading cards one way and then are forced to read them in a radically different way- But all decks seem to have slightly different takes on meanings (Some are more outstanding in their differences than others, such as the Thoth) and even though I make an effort to read and think about each deck's (or artists) perspectives on the meanings, if it just doesn't fit in with what I feel the card should mean, then I don't bother trying to make it fit. The 7 of pentacles I think is a tedious card at best. In my above post where I described my interpretation of the card, you can see that although there is a possibility of success, you pretty much have to work your ass off to make it happen. No guarantees, no easy way out. And leave it to Crowley to take the most pessimistic, worse-case scenario of that card and exemplify it! What im trying to say is that I don't think Crowley is completely off his rocker in his interpretaiton of that card.

Sulis	05 Oct 2004
This card is one that always bothered me too in Thoth and Thoth based decks. I think it's the keyword that's at fault. It just makes the interpretation so narrow in my opinion. It's negative - there's no getting away from it - it prevents me from seeing any positive interpretation. I find many of the Thoth keywords are just too negative. Why don't you do a Yaboot and give your cards the chop ;) You may get along with them better without the keywords. Love Sulis xx

ihcoyc	05 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mesara What im trying to say is that I don't think Crowley is completely off his rocker in his interpretaiton of that card. Uncle Al was not famous for patience, by my recollection. While Venus presides generally over all the sevens, which argues against a general negative interpretation, the GD astrological assignment of this card to Saturn in Taurus does suggest that the harvest is a long way off at this point, and that the processes of nature need to take place in their own time.

Nevada	05 Oct 2004
My general interpretation of this card tends to be, "hard work that may or may not pay off." In real world scenarios, if I'm engaging in work that I don't love, whether it pays off or not, there is an element of failure--in selling out for the paycheck rather than a vocation, for instance. If I'm engaging in work that I love, then there's a willingness to risk failure, because I feel I'm doing what's right for me or for whatever spirit guides me. So I can see where Crowley's keyword fits into this interpretation. But I also see "hard work" and "diligence" or "perseverance" as valid keywords. I also see the 7, relating back to the Chariot, emphasizing perseverance. Nevada

RedMaple	06 Oct 2004
Another connection to the 7 is that it is the day of rest, the Sabbath. So it makes sense that the 7 would be a lull or rest in activity. I find that in any creative work, it is normal to have periods of inactivity, when perhaps inner work is happening. I see this as a gestation card - the Venus/Aphrodite connection would also make this a strongly positive card for me, unless reversed. In fact, I think it is a danger to see failure, when rest and inactivity are just part of a natural cycle. So I might keep in mind when reading, that some people are prone to thinking failure when it is not failure at all. Maybe Crowley was one of those people? I find his vision clouded a great deal of the time. The cards, in my estimation, are saved only by Lady Frida Harris' artwork.

mj07	07 Oct 2004
wow, so many interesting and different ways to look at the 7! I really like the idea of gestation, and also patience, waiting to see if you reap a reward for your work! Quote: If I'm engaging in work that I love, then there's a willingness to risk failure, because I feel I'm doing what's right for me or for whatever spirit guides me. thanks for that, Nevada! Very helpful! :D

Fulgour	07 Oct 2004
The Combination of Stellar Influences by Reinhold Ebertin (1940) says of Saturn in Taurus: "Perseverance, energy enduring, the application of method, economy, the urge to acquire possessions or property. A conservative outlook, inertia, inhibitions make advancement in the world difficult." Very interesting, coming from an exclusive astrologer. * "The Turning Point" is my nickname for the Seven of Pentacles: Long tedious hours have blunted enthusiasm, dulling anticipation as imagination fails. The season's labours have come down to a single, decisive moment of truth. Whether to labour further for the fruits so nearly at hand but still requiring prudent husbandry, or forsake as sour grapes such profits in favour of the pleasures of the immediate gratification available from a too early harvest.

SteveGlick	14 Oct 2004
I have always had a problem with this card, when I look at the original version of the card from RWS, the two things that I have notice are half the leaves on the plant are brown and the others are green. And also the guy sitting there is quite sad. If you look at his posture there it gives a sence of impatience. When I look at him, I think he almost resents what hes growing there. Most of the other RWS clones I have seen put this card in a much more possitive light. I think that the Thoth keyword is going a bit far saying Failure, but I dont think that its steering it off the track completely. I dont generaly look at any card as good or bad, but with this card, it has quite a few negative emotions attached to it for me. As far as the plant itself goes, I think it could go either way, it could go more brown (failure) or more green (sucess), but the fact that the guy already resents it, isnt good...

Fulgour	15 Oct 2004
Have we brought up the fact yet that his boots don't match: SEVEN of PENTACLES

Vincent	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Have we brought up the fact yet that his boots don't match: SEVEN of PENTACLES It isn't consistent. They do match in the 'Original' edition with the tudor rose back, though not in my US Games version. Perhaps it is just a printing error. Vincent

Fulgour	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent It isn't consistent. They do match in the 'Original' edition with the tudor rose back, though not in my US Games version. Perhaps it is just a printing error. Vincent Maybe, maybe... but then there are the untied shoes on the 4 of Pentacles, and on the 7 of Wands he's wearing two completely different shoes altogether! The 7 of Pentacles variance has been attributed to such things as: positive and negative, past and future, light and shadow...

Vincent	16 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Maybe, maybe... but then there are the untied shoes on the 4 of Pentacles, and on the 7 of Wands he's wearing two completely different shoes altogether! Jess Karlin once wrote a piece about the signifcance of the mismatched footwear on the Seven of Wands, which was very enlightening. Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour The 7 of Pentacles variance has been attributed to such things as: positive and negative, past and future, light and shadow... As long as you remember to read from the deck that has this 'significance'. Vincent

Lurea	09 Nov 2004
Mesara wrote: I'm curious as to why the difference in the two decks perception of that card bothers you so much? Isn't that kind of part of the joy involved in using a different deck? I don't have the Thoth, I have the Quest which is very Thoth-like. This confuses me. If I have a question, pull the 7pents from the Quest, my answer is "Failure". If I ask/pull the same card from RW, the answer is...."possible success, but it's a long long time a'coming"... I don't see a way to reconcile those two answers. I find that contradiction very confusing. I understand I should use my intuition... But I started using the RW, so my knee jerk reaction to 7pents is usually that second interpretation. I guess I'm just frustrated by how confining that keyword can be. What do other readers do in a situation like this? Do you just expand that keyword's meaning until you feel it encompasses all the possible meanings (including the one you're most familiar with)? Or do you go with the idea that different decks give different answers and sometimes they don't agree?

Vincent	09 Nov 2004
Lurea_aure wrote: I don't have the Thoth, I have the Quest which is very Thoth-like. This confuses me. If I have a question, pull the 7pents from the Quest, my answer is "Failure". Why? The keywords on the Thoth cards are mnemonics for the Crowleyan philosophy that underpins the deck, they are not the philosophy itself. The wrapping paper on a birthday gift is not the same as the gift contained within that wrapping. Lurea_aure wrote: If I ask/pull the same card from RW, the answer is...."possible success, but it's a long long time a'coming"... I don't see a way to reconcile those two answers. Hmmm... Waite gives as a divinatory meaning for this card; "...in the main, it is a card of money, business, barter..." Just curious as to where you get your divinatory meaning for the RWS 7 of pentacles from. Lurea_aure wrote: I find that contradiction very confusing. I understand I should use my intuition... But I started using the RW, so my knee jerk reaction to 7pents is usually that second interpretation. I guess I'm just frustrated by how confining that keyword can be. Again, don't mistake the meaning of the keyword for the meaning of the card. Look for the similarities between the cards, as well as the differences. Rusty Neon pointed towards the Golden Dawn description of this card, and that is a useful intermediary between the Thoth and RWS cards. A reasonable, though more difficult, alternative to mutilating the deck and cutting the offending keywords off, might be to find out why Crowley called this card Failure, what the significance of Geburah in Asssiah, Saturn in Taurus and the geomantic figure of Rubeus might be, and how they are symbolised in the Thoth card, and the RWS card. Vincent

firemaiden	26 Nov 2004
It seems pretty clear to me that the GD title (Lord of Unfulfilled Success) and Crowley title (Lord of Unfulfilled Success -- later changed to "Failure") - are both reversed readings of the card, which until then (Eteilla - tradition?) had been simply the card of "success."

Rusty Neon	26 Nov 2004
firemaiden wrote: It seems pretty clear to me that the GD title (Lord of Unfulfilled Success) and Crowley title (Lord of Unfulfilled Success -- later changed to "Failure") - are both reversed readings of the card, which until then (Eteilla - tradition?) had been simply the card of "success." Etteilla: 7 of Coins upright keyword = Argent / Money reversed keyword = Inquiétude / Worry

Vincent	27 Nov 2004
firemaiden wrote: It seems pretty clear to me that the GD title (Lord of Unfulfilled Success) and Crowley title (Lord of Unfulfilled Success -- later changed to "Failure") - are both reversed readings of the card, which until then (Eteilla - tradition?) had been simply the card of "success." There is a difference between the symbolic meaning of the card(s), as used by Golden Dawn members, ie Waite, and the divinatory meanings he gives for that card in the PKT. The symbolic meaning is arrived at by a system of attributions and correspondences, whereas Waite says the divinatory meanings are mainly arbitrary. Vincent

The Thoth/RWS 7 of Disks (Pentacles) thread was originally posted on 16 Mar 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.