Gender and the court cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Apr 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

littleneptune	22 Apr 2003
Hi everyone--I do not wish to rehash old discussions about gender and the court cards, but must admit I am struggling to find a consistent method for using the courts. I am VERY uncomfortable with the idea of attributing specific qualities to certain genders (ie. males as active initiating, females as fixed, passive, etc). Even astrological descriptions can end up reinforcing old-fashioned gender stereotypes (male King of Wands as leader/Aries, female Queen as warm and engaging/Leo). I am wondering what other people who have had problems with gender and court cards are doing...what systems are you using?

Thirteen	22 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by littleneptune Even astrological descriptions can end up reinforcing old-fashioned gender stereotypes (male King of Wands as leader/Aries, female Queen as warm and engaging/Leo). Are you saying you've never met a female Aries? Or a male Leo? Bill Clinton was a Leo (as I recall). I'd thought, by the way, of recommending the "Mandala Astrological Tarot" Deck which has no images of people, just symbols. But it still has the words on it "King" and "Queen." if you could ignore these (put a white bit of paper over the names?)--you'd have genderless court cards. But I'm really not at all sure what your problem is. Why is a Queen of Wands less, different or more sterotypically "femine" than a King of Wands? She's just as fiery, just as determined, just as in-charge and charismatic. There is no sterotype to LEO or to the Queen of Wands that you don't impose on her. And I think SHE would be the first to snap at you that SHE is perfectly capable of running the Kingdom with just as much aggression and leadership as any man. The King of Cups is a man who's as "motherly" toward his children as any woman. A stay-at-home dad who happily makes breakfast for the family, kisses his wife off to work, and stays at home vaccuming, cleaning and dipering the baby. He's far more sterotypically "feminine" than the Queen of Swords, who is a scholarly woman--a brilliant professor teaching physics. All I get from these two are male or female--never a sterotype. Why do you get a sterotype?

HudsonGray	22 Apr 2003
I ignore the male/female aspect of them & focus on what the card means about advancement. Pages = someone who's new, beginners, young, apprentice Knights = someone who can do a full surge into something, but probably won't have the full staying power, but bring huge energy into something. Queens = someone who has a mature outlook, in for the long haul, can see things through to the end, fully in control of a situation. Kings = a person who's been there, done that. At the end of the growth, got there under their own power but are resting at this point & not initiating something new. This makes more sense to me, and I can ignore the card being male or female. The aspects assigned to each card can apply to male or female, it's just the intent of gender behind the card that you ignore & apply to a non-gender specific 'person'.

LadyMedusa	22 Apr 2003
HudsonGray, Thank you for that way of seeing the Courts. I to have been having trouble understanding them, and what you have said here helps a great deal. Drop the gender and focus on the level of advancement. Now where is that journal....... LadyMedusa

littleneptune	22 Apr 2003
Thirteen--here is an example using my RWS deck and many traditional court cards: male page, male knight, male king, 1 female represented (queen). Right away this seems unbalanced to me. How do I interpret these cards without taking the gender of the card literally??? Do I consider them as a hierarchy of power with pages at the bottom and kings at the top? Aren't kings and queens equal in power? Astrological interpretations are unsatisfying too--3 signs in each element but 4 court cards. What does one do with the "extra" court character? And what makes the king 'Aries' for example, and the queen a 'Leo'--what is the logic behind the association??? Also, I get very nervous when I see character qualities associated exclusively with specific genders (good or bad). It sometimes leads to gender stereotypes.

Thirteen	22 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by littleneptune 1 female represented (queen). Right away this seems unbalanced to me. Well, if balance is all you need, then just switch to the Thoth deck. That has female princess, male prince (equal--think of them as twins--young woman, young man)--and a female queen and a male knight--adult woman, adult man (you can even, in this case, think of queen as superior to knight--queen rules and tells knight what to do). If you must use RW, then pages can be either male or female--they are kids, and you know that if you dress a boy and a girl alike, with similar haircuts, you end up having a hard time telling them apart. Quote: And what makes the king 'Aries' for example, and the queen a 'Leo'--what is the logic behind the association??? There isn't any such logic. This is one of those sticky, debatable things that depends on the deck you're using. Each deck and/or each reader makes their own decision on which Zodiac signs the court cards are. So in some decks, Queen of Wands is Leo, with a lion by her side, but in another she might be designated as Aries, with ram horns on the back of her throne. So how WOULD you feel if she was designated Aries? Would you still feel this was a sterotype? The only "rule" to applying Zodiac to the court cards is that you SHOULD be consistent--if only to make it easier on yourself. Thus, if you decide that the Queen of Wands is Aries, you should be sure to make all Queens are Cardinal signs (Queen Cups = Cancer, Queen Pentacles = Capricorn)--and if the King is Leo, then all kings should be Fixed signs. Just makes it easier. It sounds to me as if what's really bothering you is the gender bias of RW. If you want a deck with more equality and/or power given to the women, go for Thoth. Crowley puts the Goddess as the first creator, the center of the universe, the ultimate power.

littleneptune	23 Apr 2003
I guess one of the unfortunate side effects of following an ancient occult system is ideology which is inappropriate for the times we live in now. I've seen aggressive women leaders (Margaret Thatcher) and queens of greater power than their husbands (Queen Elizabeth). And I've seen nurturing men who are stay-at-home dads. I'm not saying I want this necessarily, I'm saying that the traditional associations don't work as well now. I guess I'm searching for a system of court card associations which balance the power in an egalitarian way, allowing for aggressive females and passive males. In many of the books I've read, King of Cups is an emotional man who KEEPS HIS FEELINGS UNDER TIGHT REIN, and the (very intellectual) Queen of Swords is a DIVORCED, CHILDLESS WOMAN. Why such unhappy associations? I've heard that Rachal Pollack has a good system in her book "78 Degrees of Wisdom", does anyone know of it?.... thank you both Thirteen and HudsonGray for your ideas, I will definitely look into these.

Thirteen	23 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by littleneptune In many of the books I've read, King of Cups is an emotional man who KEEPS HIS FEELINGS UNDER TIGHT REIN, and the (very intellectual) Queen of Swords is a DIVORCED, CHILDLESS WOMAN. Why such unhappy associations? These are very old interpetations from a time when there weren't many divorced women, so designating a card as a "divorced" woman made it easier to tell who the court card was refering to. Now, as there are so many divorced--and childless women, it's a ridiculous designation. Ignore it--and if you're getting these from a Little White Book--burn it. I think this deck would make you much happier: http://www.aeclectic.net/goddess/index.html Give it a try. Nothing but strong, inspirational women in sight.

The Gender and the court cards thread was originally posted on 22 Apr 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.