Swords-intellect or conflict?

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littleneptune	26 Apr 2003
I have always interpreted the 4 suits of the minor arcana as representing the elements: feeling, thinking, spiritual/creative, physical. However, upon studying the minor scenes in my RWS deck I notice that the Sword element doesn't address intellectual issues and accomplishments at all, just various degrees of conflict (except the Ace). So now I'm wondering, what do the Swords really represent in this deck? If the answer is conflict (as seen in the imagery) then isn't an element missing from the deck? And if the answer is intellect, then where are the images of intellectual accomplishment? Any feedback would be appreciated...

Two of Wands	26 Apr 2003
This is a really good question, and one I've often struggled with myself. I'm sure, however, that there will be some good insights and thoughts coming your way soon, which I think I too will benefit from.

Laurel	26 Apr 2003
Littleneptune, go with your intuitions as opposed to the LWB. I think you'll find a lot of people make those attributions that you were already making. Anything that feels "natural" when it comes to what suits or specific cards represent is probably the best interpretation to utilize. ~Laurel

Two of Wands	26 Apr 2003
Yes but the LWB is not at issue here - it is the images themselves!

Rusty Neon	26 Apr 2003
Hi littleneptune and Two of Wands ... You're asking about the images themselves. I presume you're referring to those in the Rider-Waite and related clones. The images of the Swords suit pips in the Rider-Waite illustrate: (a) Golden Dawn meanings, and (b) traditional, pre-Golden meanings used by Etteilla or various Continental European cartomancers. Many of the Golden Dawn meanings themselves also derive from Etteilla and Continental European cartomancy meanings. In the GD, Etteilla and cartomancy meanings, the Swords suit is generally a suit of 'conflict' and sorrow. Thus, the Rider-Waite images would reflect this. However, as conflict and sorrow do have a mental component, we can therefore see that Swords is in a certain way also about the 'intellectual' . If you wish to take a broader psychological view of conflict and sorrow, you can look upon Swords as a suit about transformations and mind states. Looking at Swords as a more neutral suit and an intellectual suit seems to be a post-GD, post Mr. Waite development. Of course, you are free to interpret the cards and suits, and the images in the cards, as you feel best. After all, there are no rules in tarot.

skytwig	26 Apr 2003
When you look at the images, can you see how the swords might be individual thoughts at war within the mind? Does our thinking often bring us the torment, worry, sorrow, fear that we endure? Do we create mental chaos, which, in turn, affects our mood and our level of hope? Can we look at such indicators and see a need for change in our thinking, thereby influencing our lives in a positive way? just some thoughts...... skytwig :)

Two of Wands	26 Apr 2003
I think you're right Skytwig. The mind, our thoughts, intellect, learnings, teachings, wants, yearnings ect, are so often in conflict and I think this can be looked at allegorically through the images of the sword suit. There is much in the inner workings of our minds that we seek to work out and attempt (or sometimes don't attempt) to resolve. When I first saw this thread I wanted to express something like that, but couldn't quite get there in my head until Skytwig came along; and the rest, as they say, is history!

skytwig	26 Apr 2003
Well, I just happen to be one who has spent a lot of time in my head, you know? Am learning it's wonder and it's "traps"....... ;)

ihcoyc	26 Apr 2003
This is one of the issues I've always had with the RWS tradition. Actual "conflict" strikes me as being more Wands business. Nightmares, heartbreak, and sorrow strike me as Cups business. Conflict is possible with the Swords --- well, conflict is possible in Coins as well --- but the conflict in the Swords is likelier to be cattyness and arguing than fisticuffs. In Wands, people can fight physically, for rank and power, or to display their own courage and bravado. In Coins, for possessions. In Cups, it's blubbering and manipulation, and in Swords, it's two professors who call each other quacks and write scathing reviews of each other's theories in scientific journals. The RWS/Golden Dawn system strikes me historically as a mixture: not quite elemental/numerology/Qabalah, not quite Etteilla traditional cartomancy. The tension is greatest in the suit of Swords, where the traditional meanings of misfortune --- that ultimately seem to come from the association of Spades in pre-Tarot cartomancy --- are mixed into the system.

littleneptune	26 Apr 2003
Yes Skytwig, but what about intellectual accomplishment? Is this not worthy of celebrating (beyond the potential of the Ace) like the celebration of marriage or a creative project? I admit there is a negative side to the intellect, but isn't it just as true of emotions? And what about the Sword courts? Do they now represent people of conflict, rather than impartial thinking types?

littleneptune	26 Apr 2003
Sorry ihcoyc, we must have posted at the same time and I missed your point. You said this a problem withing the RWS tradition... does this mean there are other traditions don't have this issue?

Rusty Neon	26 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by littleneptune And what about the Sword courts? Do they now represent people of conflict, rather than impartial thinking types? Littleneptune ... As I noted in my post above, everyone is free to interpret the cards and suits, and the images in the cards, as they feel best. After all, there are no rules in tarot; it's not like astrology.

Rusty Neon	26 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc The RWS/Golden Dawn system strikes me historically as a mixture: not quite elemental/numerology/Qabalah, not quite Etteilla traditional cartomancy. The tension is greatest in the suit of Swords, where the traditional meanings of misfortune --- that ultimately seem to come from the association of Spades in pre-Tarot cartomancy --- are mixed into the system. Agreed! It seems to me that most of the GD DMs in the tarot are based on pre-GD DMs (e.g., from Etteilla and various cartomancists) which the GD then tried to back-derive into the framework of the Golden Dawn's Qabalistic and astrological correspondences. The fit (such as it is) isn't always seamless.

Laurel	27 Apr 2003
Having re-read thread (brain is a little foggy, my apologies), I think the key here is to look at the relationship between 'thinking' and conflict as a symbol of thinking. (analysis of the four Jungian Ego divisions is particularly helpful). I wish my ability to articulate ideas was up to snuff. This may not come out as coherently as I want it to. Rational analysis is a process I think can be very well symbolized by conflict and combative stances, as in the RW pips. So I wouldn't call this a situation where its either thinking or conflict, but rather, conflict images symbolizing 'thinking'. ~Laurel

jmd	27 Apr 2003
So many wonderful reflections... (and yes Laurel, your thoughts are also clearly articulated!) Irrespective of the traditional reasons for the 'conflict' of swords (which can, in any case, easily be explained by considering what swords are used or created for), it is also worth considering what is required in the activity of thinking: the standing back from the object or idea being considered. Unlike empathy or love, where the opening, uniting and utter acceptance is required, thinking requires virtually the opposite - an attitude of distancing and what may be termed antipathy in order for reflection to occur. Here, the two main views of Swords are in some ways reconciled... though of course, the proper connection of the element of Air to a suit and to thinking is yet another step one may or may not make.

fairyhedgehog	27 Apr 2003
This is one area where RWS and its clones cause me problems. My mind has very rarely brought me into serious conflict but my emotions are a different issue ;) I wonder if I'd be better using a Thoth, or one of its derivatives. Does anyone have suggestions for decks where swords do mean intellect and not conflict?

jmd	27 Apr 2003
...dare I use the opportunity??? Have you considered (again) trying a Marseille???

Rusty Neon	27 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Irrespective of the traditional reasons for the 'conflict' of swords (which can, in any case, easily be explained by considering what swords are used or created for), it is also worth considering what is required in the activity of thinking: the standing back from the object or idea being considered. The Swords suit of tarot corresponds with the Spades suit of playing cards. In Continental cartomancy, Spades was the negative, 'conflict' suit and this carried over to the Swords suit of tarot.

fairyhedgehog	27 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd ...dare I use the opportunity??? Have you considered (again) trying a Marseille??? I feel like I really ought to but I just don't like those pictures :( Sorry.

Dark Inquisitor	27 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by littleneptune I notice that the Sword element doesn't address intellectual issues and accomplishments at all, just various degrees of conflict (except the Ace). So now I'm wondering, what do the Swords really represent in this deck? Let's think about a sword & what it represents. A sword is an object of power , of force. It is impersonal , it does not nurture or amplify or energize. I think the swords are about states of force. Force that can be used in many different ways . Sometimes it rests, sometimes it engages, depending on the situation. It can be talking about conflicts and/or intellectual matters-- all are force of some kind. Forces naturally come into conflict from time to time. Other times they are put back in their sheaths to ponder & plan. Tarotphelia

jmd	27 Apr 2003
fairyhedgehog, I remembered you had previously mentioned your dislike of the images - but I am always such an optimist that one day... who knows! :) Tarotphelia, this aspect of Force which you mention in connection with swords is, in my personal view, one of absolutely central importance - and, as someone who has also handled the instrument, skilfully mastering its usage (which I have not) takes one really to task! Thanks also for those comments Rusty Neon - and I'll also use the opportunity to mention that I am enjoying reading your contributions (I know you have posted here for a couple of months, but hadn't said anything yet - I'm often either too slow or altogether forgetful in welcoming!) The French suits and their direct equivalent to the Tarot suits are quite interesting, and certainly with the English appelation of 'Spade', there is no question as to its linguistic correlation to Swords. As to whether spades have such a negative divinatory tradition because of its sword correspondence, or whether it is the inverse, or whether the two are more independent (though I suspect the former) is an interesting historical question indeed. What is quite peculiar is that with swords, and hence its card suit, conflict suits (excuse the pun) - whereas intellect seems to, at first, only suit via elemental attribution (Air, and its thinking attribution). It may be worth starting another thread to also look at some of the various correlations which have been made between the four French suits (Hearts, Diamonds, Spade and Clubs) and the Tarot ones - for though the English names seem to lead to precise correlations, the French names do not (in a similar way that the name of the body of water between France and Britain leads to particular thoughts if given its English or French appelation). Apologies for this longish post which deviates somewhat from the main focus of the thread... though it does deal with precision of thoughts, which has become given to the sword (which, as I'm sure Ravenswing would remind if I hadn't done so here, is a permutation of 'words').

HOLMES	27 Apr 2003
i think the most important to make as a tarot reader is that you will have to decide for yourself what element you like for the swords. for in the end it is a highly personal event when you read the tarot, the books get thrown out of the window (but the knowledge kept in your mind ) and that will be but the basis for your reading. for how you see it in the present is what matters. example would be , a deck like take for instance the whimiscal tarot it's swords are the fire element. i could change the swords to represent the creative element of fire.. but it would confused me eventually. (liken it to music, one could incorpate techiques, styles, but we will always have a distinct sound so too is it true with reading the tarot, and so pick your style and develop it ) but to share where i come from i learned swords mean air , but in the beginner swords meant strife and fighting. until i started to study it deeper (hell took me a month at least to associate the elements with their suits based on the rider waite deck ) that is the good thing about picking a meaning that suits you , you can apply it any deck, if it is a true tarot it will allow it. but then what is the true tarot ,,the ones that go back into marsielles ? consider this,, that the people who made the tarot were working with the times, and so they couldn't put too much spiritual teachings into the tarot at the time. for look at how far tarot has come , astrology, kabbalah, numerology colours, psychology aspects, all incorpated into the tarot. an example of that is why the camel is in the toth tarot at the high priestress, it is because kabalisticly the name of the second high priestress path is camel. for me i incorpate both of them, swords being both intellect and conflict, it is the mind dealing with the conflict, how to plan , how to stragetize. but probaly at the higher level deals with inner conflict and the death of the ego.

Rose	27 Apr 2003
Forgive me, if a lot of this has already been said. Swords as the suit of intellect stands for awareness, clarity, insight, analysis, communication. They are concerned with justice, truth and ethical principles. Swords as a symbol of the mind represent the need for clear thinking to show us the underlying motives for our actions and to clarify confused emotions. Since it's difficult to examine our motives and feelings truthfully and objectively, the cards in the sword suit can show a great deal of conflict. RWS cards-some examples of how the element of thinking is expressed in the images. 2 of Swords-the result of obsessive thinking that causes someone to ponder all sides but not take action. Also using your mind to close yourself off from your emotions. 3 of Swords-a swords dominated person can have trouble dealing with emotions and relationships. Differing beliefs and miscommunication can cause emotional hurt. Perhaps the card says that difficulties in relationships can be overcome with better communication. 4 of Swords-a mental holiday. Sleeping on a problem so you can look at it with a fresh perspective the next day. 5 of Swords-An ethical look at how we handle winning. Also the need to examine how we view defeat. 6 of Swords-I see this card as a card of recovery. You have gained clarity into a problem and are now loading your thoughts (swords) into that boat and moving to a better place. Mental clarity enables you to move away from a difficult situation. 7 of Swords-The need for a clever plan. Or the need to ethically examine your actions. 8 of Swords-shows what happens when you fail to use your mind to examine your options and feel trapped as a result. 9 of Swords-Negative thoughts. Both thoughts and words can cause hurt. 10 of Swords-The end result of all of the previous cards. As far as the Court Cards. I see both the positive and negative effects of the mental energy of the suit in the personalities of the each of the Court cards. I do wish there were a few more positive images in the RWS Swords suits. But in case someone was still having trouble seeing this as a suit of mental energy, maybe this will help. Rose

Rose	27 Apr 2003
Hi, Just to avoid confusion (nasty swords' miscommunications). My post was only meant to explain how the RWS images can be seen as a reflection of the element of air (thinking). I'm not saying that one can't change swords to correlate with the element of fire if one wishes. Rose

littleneptune	27 Apr 2003
Rose--not at all, your point is very clear! Thank you for contributing your take on the Sword suit, it definitely helps me to apply the 'air/thinking' concept to the RWS images. I have difficulty seeing the Swords solely as a 'conflict' suit because I see various forms of conflict in the other suits too...

Nevada	27 Apr 2003
I've also been studying the Swords cards recently. Thank you, Rose, for sharing your interpretations -- I find those very helful. I also agree with Skytwig about conflicts within one's own thinking. Some other meanings I've applied to Swords: Communication Debate Discussion Personal Power and its use in groups While I look at the Cups as being about, among other things, relationships, for me they cover the emotional side of relationships, while I think Swords can have a lot to do with interpersonal communications, conflicts, disagreements and so forth on a more intellectual or logical level. For instance the types of relationships you might have in the workplace or in other group work, where you're less centered on feelings and more on how things are done, policies, ideas--that sort of thing. Also personal decisions. I'm retiring early soon, and thinking about how I want to spend the rest of my life, making some decisions, working on where I want to focus my time and energy. I'm getting a lot of predominantly Swords readings. (Edited for clarity.)

Rusty Neon	27 Apr 2003
Thanks, jmd. I've really been enjoying this Forum. I have read a lot of interesting insights from you and many others at this place. It's interesting about 'spade' and 'pique' (French). As an anglophone, I have neglected to click in to the fact that 'pique' means 'lance' and therefore has a linkage with Swords, both being sharp weapons. This similarity between spade and sword isn't as clear in English as 'spade' means a shovel-like tool used for digging or cutting ground, but I guess there is some similarity in that both a sword and a spade can cut. I wonder if there was an earlier meaning for 'spade' similar to the one for 'pique'. I'm not sure whether the negative connotation came first for 'pique' or for sword. My hunch is that it came first for pique as it would seem that playing card cartomancy was around before taromancy. But I'm not a historian. Some stray thoughts on spades and swords: (1) The Swords suit and astrology's 11th House have both been rehabilitated in modern times. (2) There are two interesting expressions in English that relate to spades. They may exist in other languages too. Oxford Canadian Dictionary: Under the entry for 'spade' as a tool: "to call a spade a spade": "speak plainly or bluntly" Under the entry for 'spade' as a playing card symbol: "in spades": "with great or excessive force or persistence"

Thirteen	27 Apr 2003
Funny, but though several posts mention "Communications," not many really go into it. Swords aren't just "thoughts," they're words--not poetic words like with cups, nor passionate, spiritual words as with wands--but everyday communications, including arguments, discussions, and information--true and false information. This is why, IMHO, they can be more about "conflict" than most other suits--though note: the other suits DO have their conflict cards. But when it comes down to it, it is in such communications where conflict will most likely occur. You can find your lover in bed with someone else (conflict), or protect your home from looters (conflict). But most of the time, you're going to be aruging with someone. On the street, around the dinner table, online. Sometimes a big argument, sometimes, just a discussion of different views--like this one. Such communications can pierce your heart with the truth or as false gossip, rumor and innuendo, ruin your life. Words can even start a war. Consider, it is merely over a disagreement over what's said in the Bible (words over words, yes?) that people burned other people at the stake. Of course, there are deeper "emotions" to such disagreements. Need for control, or fear of the other--but even these two relate to the intellect. The intellect is not just logic and science, devoid of emotion--they are also confusion, being lost in a head of "what if's"? The man who is an expert with a sword--clever words and arguments--can cut your mind to ribbons by playing on such mental fears. In the play, Richard III, Richard does just that. He uses words to play on people's fears, people's desires, people's anger (VERY 7/Swords, this fellow). He causes a world of conflict with nothing sharper than his tongue. That's the power of swords. And YES, by the way, there are other traditions which do not have Swords ONLY as conflict. Crowley, as I recall, plays up the power of the mind and its words to create not just to destroy. In his deck, certain swords can just as easily mean a scientific discovery as nasty gossip. P.S. TO ROSE--excellent synopsis of the swords!

Aerin	27 Apr 2003
Just wanted to say thank you to Rose and to Thirteen as your posts in particular have helped me to clarify the Swords suit in my own mind. IMO, they also help with the connection to Jung's Thinking function. I've always had no problem with Swords as Thinking and Air, especially in the case of the 4 and 6 where there's a sense of standing back/ moving away to look at things objectively. The Ten of Swords as culmination of what the other cards can do is interesting, especially as I often see it as an over-dramatisation of the 'real' situation. The meaning you can make with words is often far exaggerated from the reality. Aerin

Diana	27 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia Let's think about a sword & what it represents. A sword is an object of power , of force. It is impersonal , it does not nurture or amplify or energize. Swords are also used to bestow knighthood. So they can provide honour and prestige. Prestige also accompanies anyone carrying a sword. Great swords are always given names. Remember Excalibur? Symbolic swords separate truth from error. They are used in conflicts, but they do not cause the conflict. I also agree with fairyhedgehog that it is emotions that cause the greatest conflicts. Great intellectuals don't cause arguments or conflicts - they use their minds to solve them. To me, Swords and conflict don't fit together. Of course, read in their "reversed" meanings, this can be implied. But I feel that there is a lot more to Swords than this.

skytwig	27 Apr 2003
I like the implications of what you create with words, Diana and tarotphelia. So, we have these trememdous tools, these swords, these huge 'sticks' of slicing power. Is the question, what do we do with them? How do we handle such power? And what of the idea that we create turmoil with our thinking? does this not enter in somehow? Is the challenge of the sword cards a matter of learning how to 'dance' with such tools, how to communicate with others and ourselves?

ihcoyc	27 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by littleneptune Sorry ihcoyc, we must have posted at the same time and I missed your point. You said this a problem withing the RWS tradition... does this mean there are other traditions don't have this issue? James Revak's Villa Revak site has an essay contrasting the Etteilla tradition with Mathers and Waite. His conclusion, IIRC, is that about half of the Mathers/Waite meanings derive recognisably from Etteilla. As for the rest of them --- they apparently do not, which raises the question, where do they come from? Of course, it is possible to have Tarot without elements, just as it is possible to have Tarot without Qabalah, without Hebrew alphabets, or without any of the various associations that have been added to it, often without strict historical justification. I do use the element/suit relationship, though, which makes me question whether we need a malefic element. Without them, making swords the symbol of conflict is fairly obvious, although the clubs (bastoni) were also a weapon.

ihcoyc	27 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd The French suits and their direct equivalent to the Tarot suits are quite interesting, and certainly with the English appelation of 'Spade', there is no question as to its linguistic correlation to Swords. . . . It may be worth starting another thread h precision of thoughts, which has become given to the sword (which, as I'm sure Ravenswing would remind if I hadn't done so here, is a permutation of 'words').to also look at some of the various correlations which have been made between the four French suits (Hearts, Diamonds, Spade and Clubs) and the Tarot ones - for though the English names seem to lead to precise correlations, the French names do not. . . Now that is an interesting point. For those who don't know them, the French names for the English suit names are: Hearts - Coeurs - (Cups); Diamonds - Carreaux - (Coins); Clubs - Trefles - (Wands); Spades - Piques - (Swords); Now, I need a better French etymological dictionary. But my understanding is that Hearts/Coeurs are the only one where the English word is a direct equivalent of the French. Diamonds in French are "carreaux," which would be "tiles" or "lozenges" or "rhombuses" --- the reference here is to the shape of a slightly bent square. The notion of jewelry and precious stones is not there in French. "Trefles" are clover shapes. "Piques" are still weapons in French, but here the reference is to a pike head rather than to a sword. There does seem to be a better correspondence between the English words and the corresponding tarot suits than there is between the French words. This is curious, since I've always understood that the English playing card tradition comes almost entirely from France. The English word "spades" relates much more obviously to Italian "spadi" than to the French, and "clubs" accurately translates bâton but the French more descriptively call that suit marker a "clover." I realize I am seriously geeking out here on something completely irrelevant. I wonder, though, was there in fact some use of tarot in England before the French cards took over completely? Or did Englishmen actually pick up playing cards elsewhere, say in Italy, but found the French ones easier to buy or make?

Rusty Neon	27 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc James Revak's Villa Revak site has an essay contrasting the Etteilla tradition with Mathers and Waite. His conclusion, IIRC, is that about half of the Mathers/Waite meanings derive recognisably from Etteilla. As for the rest of them --- they apparently do not, which raises the question, where do they come from? hi ihcocyc ... What I've read from various postings on the TarotL list is that those any divinatory meanings that don't derive from Etteilla were either invented by Mathers/GD or derive from various Continental European (French, Italian, Spanish) cartomancy meanings that weren't codified by Etteilla. Etteilla's meanings were derived, at least in part, from various cartomancy meanings, but he didn't necessarily codify all of them. I wish I could get my greedy hands on a scholarly book that analyzes and contrasts the divinatory meanigs from all the various Continental European cartomancy schools.

jmd	27 Apr 2003
Again, this probably belongs to what is becoming a side-thread within this thread... Just continuing with the correlations between playing card suits and those of Tarot, in English there seems pretty consistent (and etymologically justified) correlations such that: Spade = Sword Clubs = Wands Diamonds = Coins Hearts = Cups In the French, the main correlation made by many cartomancers is Pique (Spade) = Sword Trefle (Clubs) = Coins Coeurs (Hearts) = Cups Carreaux (Diamonds) = Wands These, however, are not the only accepted correlations. Possibly, and as mentioned earlier, 'Pique' (spade) is also related, as a lance, to Wands. Trefle (Clubs), undoubtedly due to its imagery similarity upon the coins, to Coins, and Carreaux (Diamonds) to Swords. Here, the images, especially as derived and extrapolated from the imagery on the Marseille pips, certainly give rise more to those of the French tradition(s) than those of the English - though their English appelations leaves little room for the main correlations made and mentioned earlier. __________ With regards to communication through especially the media of words, these may also express what is better reflected in the suit, for example, of cups. Swords, of course, are 'just' swords - but entering what and how swords express humanity may unveil their significance... as tools of communication, as tools of conflict, as a tool symbolic of Justitia, and as a regal emblem (see the quote on the secular vs the ecclesiastical sword in the VIII - Justice thread in the Historical Forum, bottom of page 1). Swords, as such, have, as have also the other suits, multiple references of symbolic importance...

Diana	28 Apr 2003
I was at a Tarot seminar all weekend. The whole weekend, I only wrote down three sentences. One of them was : Swords combat ignorance. As to whether Swords were spades or wands, this makes me think of something. You know how Aeclecticians get all excited when people talk of reversals or non-reversals? Well, French tarotists don't get emotional about reversals, but try saying "I think Swords are Spades", or "I think Swords are Clubs". And you'll often get the same reaction as here on Aeclectic with reversals!

isthmus nekoi	28 Apr 2003
Swords divide and this is the basis of consciousness: to be able to say, I am *I* not *you*. In order to understand things, sometimes you have to be conscious of them, and that requires making divisions. The 'sci' of science is derived from 'skei' (indo european) which also forms the words schism (division), and schitzophrenia (split mind), perhaps even scissors (not sure about that one though). The Japanese kanji for wakaru (to understand) is the same as hanbun (half/to divide) and originates from a pictogram of a sword cutting through an object in half. However, becoming conscious no matter how enlightening, can be full of conflict and pain. (Think, explusion from Eden). Frankly, being conscious can suck big time. The more swords you get, the more divisions, the harder it is to tow the line. p.s. edited to add that language, w/its airy abstractions is totally related to the swords. Language, unlike mediums of sound and image, is the least ambiguous in terms of meaning. Language affords consciousness - this is why naming something, speaking words etc can hold incredible power. ----------------- Someone waaaaaaaaaaaaay back asked for a deck that has a positive portrayal of the swords - I'd go for Vertigo. It still has some traditional conflicts (3, 5, 7, and 9 come to mind), but the images shift away from the conflict itself to the manner in which the conflict is dealt w/: courage and honesty are strong themes in Vertigo's swords.

Umbrae	28 Apr 2003
Conflict – intellect, conflict – intellect. Let me think about this! NO! Look at the images Don’t look at the images it’s the pictures it’s the meanings and not the pictures… Throw the book aside – Scratch the images off the cards! Heave ho convention. Let’s talk about intellect and conflict. Where does conflict come from? It does not come from the heart, or the emotional aspect of living. Crimes of passion, where someone’s feelings get hurt – are a matter of ‘thought corruption’. My great-grandfather “thought” his wife was cheating on him and killed her and himself, while the children watched. Because he was jealous? No, because he thought, and did not find the truth – only an erroneous conclusion. Erroneous conclusions are the prime cause of most of the world conflict. You gotta problem with that statement? (See…that’s attitude…a feeling of superiority (it’s not true…I’m making a point…so put down that candlestick Colonel Mustard)) Many conflicts begin because of a disparity between reality and expectations. Usually, person A was so busy thinking of what they were going to say (so that they would appear witty and intelligent) that they in fact failed to listen to, and comprehend what, person B was really saying. Happens here in the forum a lot…folks respond without reading…just blithely posting with disregard… That’s intellect. Are there Good Intellect (non-conflict) Swords? You bet. Each and every one of them. Relying upon the pictures or the books they may look bad. Put them in a spread and they may change. However many of us were ‘taught’ (an intellectual exercise) that ‘this’ card equates to ‘that’ meaning. Our world of ‘possibilities’ was closed off by an ‘intellectual exercise’. “We often try to explain Tarot in the same way we try to explain dreams. We analyze the cards, symbolize them, look them up in a reference book, all to make the Tarot rational and safe. We try to pin it down, to give it an origin – Kabbalah, Paganism, card games, processions – all to take it out of its dream state and land it safely in history.” * (emphasis added) We love to intellectualize…everything. It’s our nature. Take a look at all of your ‘Fools Journeys’. We have to peg down the Fool – make him hold still for a bit… Then (like and as the Magician), we analyze – prod – poke…take notes…refer to reference books… “It is the same for us, Virtually from the moment of our birth, society measures us. Doctors measure our physical (and more and more our psychological) abilities, schools measure our intelligence and “aptitude” for future careers, bosses measure our worth, family and friends all measure our character. We measure and weigh our bodies to judge our attractiveness. Potential partners place us on a scale of one to ten. Polls measure our beliefs and convictions, corporations measure our tastes. With every measurement the box becomes tighter, and more elaborate. Just like Osiris, we suffocate in a box that limits us to one degree of who we can become”* One last note on intellect and conflict…“We are cursed with the need to acquire control over each other and our environment. To rule. To change everything we can possibly meddle with. The advances in technology and the sciences are important to our development as a race. However, like religion, science depends on what one brings to it. Were we only seeking cures for cancer and world hunger and the like, it would be one thing. But the quest for the most devastating weapon or deodorant and shampoo is ludicrous.” * “ The Forest of Souls – A Walk Through The Tarot” by Rachel Pollack (pg. 139 & pg. 19)

littleneptune	28 Apr 2003
(at the risk of dragging this conversation too far...) Umbrae said: 'Are there Good Intellect (non-conflict) Swords? You bet. Each and every one of them. Relying upon the pictures or the books they may look bad. Put them in a spread and they may change." Can you (or anyone) give an example of this? Not sure I understand how this happens...

Umbrae	28 Apr 2003
Sure…here’s a great example: The Three of Swords…the OH MY GAWD card (or one of a few). Does it guarantee heartache and despair? No…it can serve as a warning – you have time to change things. Does the Eight of Swords guarantee confusion, bondage, tests and trials? No it does tell you there is a way out – if you can remember. Does the Six of Swords guarantee doom dismay and despair? No, it talks of getting distance, moving away from a bad situation to see it in a different light. Does the Ten of Swords guarantee – the end? “And in the end The love you take Is equal to the love you make.” The End Lennon/McCartney

isthmus nekoi	29 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Happens here in the forum a lot…folks respond without reading…just blithely posting with disregard… :P Guilty as charged! I skimmed most of the thread, sorry if I didn't make sense. I should also mention that Vertigo does shift the swords over to thinking, although not necessarily intellect. littleneptune> If a nasty swords card is in a past position, it can signify a positive change if the other cards indicate so. At least in the minors, you can't get much lower than Rider Waite's 10 of swords :D

ihcoyc	29 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Where does conflict come from? It does not come from the heart, or the emotional aspect of living. Crimes of passion, where someone’s feelings get hurt – are a matter of ‘thought corruption’. My great-grandfather “thought” his wife was cheating on him and killed her and himself, while the children watched. Because he was jealous? This runs somewhat contrary to my experience. My problem with the status of the Swords in the RWS tradition comes from my experience that sorrow and grief are matters of feeling, matters of the heart, not matters of the mind. In other words, I'm not particularly paranoid, but I tend to brood a lot. Basic Baltic disposition. What I am thinking about, I am holding at arms length. In the element of water I fear I might drown. This is why even cards like the 9 and 10 of Cups aren't really positive omens for me. There is always an element of discomfort there, like at a big party where I don't really think I belong.

littleneptune	29 Apr 2003
The traditional meanings for the Three of Swords (heartbeak, sorrow, a third party which disrupts a relationship) have always seemed inconsistent with the 'mental' aspect of the swords. I think now the Three of Swords would represent the argument, the conflict of ideas itself, but NOT the emotional aftermath... PS- ihcoyc so sorry about your 9 of Cups associations. You appear to be feeling EMOTIONAL-CONFLICT (I should be happy, I'm not happy, why arent I happy at this party?). Here is inner conflict--what card would describe it? Cups or Swords?

Umbrae	29 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Many conflicts begin because of a disparity between reality and expectations. Usually, person A was so busy thinking of what they were going to say (so that they would appear witty and intelligent) that they in fact failed to listen to, and comprehend what, person B was really saying. Quote: Originally posted by ihcoyc …My problem with the status of the Swords in the RWS tradition comes from my experience that sorrow and grief are matters of feeling, matters of the heart, not matters of the mind… I tend to brood a lot. What I am thinking about, I am holding at arms length… This is why even cards like the 9 and 10 of Cups aren't really positive omens for me. There is always an element of discomfort there… Sorrow and grief are initially about cups…but they become intellectualized, when dwelled upon – Brooding is the intellectual exercise of taking a cup, and beating it until it becomes a sword. That’s why the Eight of Cups is such a huge card. Sometimes you have to leave stuff behind – if you want to enjoy the party. Dragging emotions around, is not emotional. It is intellectual. It’s seeing the disparity between expectations, and reality – and choosing to live in the gap. Most folks assign the 3 of Swords to a third party, “It’s not me! I’m the victim here! After all…he hit me back!” Usually the 3 of Swords is a warning about upcoming denial (which also is intellectual). Ideas which are founded in error, or which have run their course and are kept alive (beating a dead horse)…are about the disparity between reality and expectations. Anytime any of these are present – expect conflict.

Thirteen	30 Apr 2003
Quote: Originally posted by littleneptune The traditional meanings for the Three of Swords (heartbeak, sorrow, a third party which disrupts a relationship) have always seemed inconsistent with the 'mental' aspect of the swords. I think now the Three of Swords would represent the argument, the conflict of ideas itself, but NOT the emotional aftermath... You really can't separate the two that easily. For every argument and discussion, even one on a strictly mental math problem, there can be--and usually is some emotional investment. We are not robots. We usually put feelings, fears and attachments, into what we say and think. Yes, we can distance ourselves, be objective, but with 3/swords we come back to COMMUNICATION, information. 3/Swords, IMHO, warns that there is going to be some nasty communication. Most likely a hurtful truth. Whatever the informaton, 3/Swords assures that it's NOT going to be objective, impersonal. It is going to be VERY personal. You may be right in that card is predicting the event (words said) and not the "emotional aftermath" (the hurt)--but that's rather like saying, the card is going to predict someone getting stabbed in the gut--but NOT that they'll bleed afterwards. What I think we CAN say, is that the swords cannot predict HOW hurtful those words will be. Perhaps the person can distance themselves, hear the words, but not the pain they bring. Perhaps they can be objective--but the words said will still be hurtful. It may be only because they were warned by the cards that they can deflect the blow, wear armor to prevent it from cutting too deep.

littleneptune	30 Apr 2003
Thirteen you said: "For every argument and discussion, even one on a strictly mental math problem, there can be--and usually is some emotional investment. We are not robots. We usually put feelings, fears and attachments, into what we say and think." Lawyers do this all the time! They argue openly, using facts, evidence, words, but there is (hopefully) little emotional investment in the argument (besides the desire to win). You and I are disagreeing openly in conversation right now...am I to become upset by your opposing views? Are you upset with mine?

Forum Library > Using Tarot Cards Threads By Month > Swords-intellect or conflict?

Originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Apr 2003, and now part of the Forum Library. Take part in active threads about Using Tarot Cards.