Are Tarot Readings really set in stone?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

NeXoRiouS	31 May 2003
As always, people tend to say tarot would only show the path and things can be done to change what's going to happen. But recently, I did numerous readings for my friend and it happens that all the outcome linked from one point to another. Simply showing her entire life out before us. I was freaked out at that moment. I will narate the readings in short. She first asked on how to forget on a guy who has made a deep mark in her and eventually it lead to a guy which would change her entire life. Then following, this guy would be the man she would do anything even using underhand methods to possess him. As she will be vicious, she would eventually own her body but not her heart. Sooner or later, the guy left and made a very huge change in her. In fact, her true love seems to have always carried a torch for her when he was a counsellor for my friend. It seems like she will be a vicious woman and unknowningly, this wasn't the first time she had heard about this. Previously she had used a fortune telling machine and had told about this to her before. Furthermore, a face-reader could just tell her life similar to what I said. At that moment, I suddenly find that fate has already been predestined. Especially when I used Issue-Advice-Outcome spread, the advice appeared not as a remedy to save her but to ensure her path into being a vicious woman. Telling her that this is her fate. No matter how I try to sort it out, her life has already been set in stones. Maybe changing her life could help but her path seems unable to be repaired. Ever since seeing what I had interpreted for her, I had started to doubt the advice I see in spreads. Do we really have to follow fate? As in being unable to save someone who already knows what would happen to him/her as it all seems pre-planned. I find myself helpless.

CompassRose	31 May 2003
I don't think they are set in stone, no... but I do think it is possible to make one's choices in such a way that one is pretty much reduced to one narrow path, either for a temporary period or, as you seem to be seeing for this woman, for the foreseeable future. Apart from that, my personal feeling on fate is that it is not a constant thing, but I've seen, sometimes, that again, one hits a particular juncture where Fate DOES have an influence, where a whole number of things intersect or connect, and there does appear to be some greater force at work. Still, your friend may not be doomed to be vicious, even if everything she has done until now is bringing her to that point. Any means of scrying will only show "the most likely road". Some roads being more likely than others. If she knows, though, and really takes steps to change rather than following the route of least resistance, who knows but that a reading at a later point will show something else?

alexis	31 May 2003
i do remember many on this forum saying that tarot readings only show what will happen if the querent continues the path she is on. the readings point to us the things we either fail to take note of or things that are there but we insistently do not want to recognise. Thus, maybe the readings for her are trying to get her to do something about her current viciousness. if she chooses to believe that her life is cemented by the hands of fate, then she will only spiral downwards in a vicious cycle for the rest of her life. i like to think that tarot readers are somewhat "the chosen ones" thus, we do have a responsibility to guide the people we do readings for on a positive path. in the case of other divination tools, such as palmistry, face reading, the ba zi(eight characters), tze wei dou shu (purple star constellation(?)), or the element readings. when one does all these readings together, there are bound to be likely themes underlying all of these readings thus making it seem as though we are indeed destine to such fate. What i would see these common themes as: are that, each of us are born with certain sets of obstacles to counter. these common themes are the set of obstacles or the set or rewards for us to counter and accept. probably one of her obstacle in life is to learn how to control her desires and to learn to think rationally before action. this will help to counter the viciousness in her. remember too, just as the lines of our hands changes with time, so will the features on our face. as for the eight characters and astrology they are a snapshot of our life at birth. (its like a company's balance sheet that talks about the company's financial status at that point in time.it sure does not predict the how much money the company will make in future with 100% accuracy.) conclusion: nothing in life is really definite. life is all about interaction of forces around us and with us. tat's my penny worth of thoughts. hope it helps :)

Inana	31 May 2003
I dont believe in fate. Everyday we are forging our own destiny with what we do. Otherwise, we would be like a bunch of puppets in a theater. If the cards are showing things that are already in her life, this only proves that tarot works. But one has to be carefull and not let his/her path becomes dominated by nothing. I mean, sometimes happens that a person lets oneself to be influenced about what the cards or other systems are showing but in a bad way. This is when instead of pondering the advice given and see how it suits, the person is trying to accomodate his/her actions at what is "suposed to be". Hope is understandable what i mean. Tarot is a tool to get understanding. Not a thing you have to follow blindly. So, yes, I think sometimes is better not follow the advices. Is your life and is up to you what to do with it. Is the person who has to chose, not the cards.

Kiama	31 May 2003
I agree with Innana... She said it perfectly. In my opinion, since the future is totally dependent upon the present, we are in control of that future, not fate. Think about it: We are constantly choosing what we wish to do in the present, aren't we? So surely that means that we can change the future? In the readings you reported, NeXoRious, you say that you think the cards were showing her it was her fate to become a vicious woman, simply because teh advice cards were telling her how to do so. Could it possibly be that the cards were just showing the most likely road? Your friend does not have to take the advice of a bunch of cards: She can look at what those advice cards were saying, and say, 'Actually, I don't want to become a vicious woman, therefore I shall not take that advice.' And then maybe she could do a reading asking for advice as to how to NOT become a vicious woman. Your friend is not controlled by fate, and she does have the choice to take the advice given in the cards or not. Kiama

Marion	31 May 2003
It is not, I think, so simple, though your words are good Kiama and Inana. There are a surprising number of things it is exceedingly difficult to change. Even if you can see the problem, and often you are blind to it. I have had it happen to me and seen it happen to others. There is a woman at my work who just seems determined to follow a self destructive path. She has been told what she is doing, and from talking she at least partly sees it herself. She goes home and cries about it, but she comes into work and does the very same things. There is a lot of destiny written into our genes, body chemistry, stuff our mom said and got internalized and buried etc etc. And I mean real destiny. What about young men who are life criminals because of body chemistry? Often destiny does control you. Now, I am not preaching a fatalist philosophy. I strongly believe that you can alter, or at least mitigate fate. Awareness is paramount, fixing goals, consciously making hard decisions to alter life pathes. These are tools. Also meditation and seeing problems before they get too big to handle. It may very well be, from the fact that three spiritual sources warned this woman of a tendency to vicious behaviour that she needs to stop now, before it takes over her life, and make some very conscious decisions and markers.

allibee	31 May 2003
Yep, Kiama has said what I was feeling too:O) Just take it as a warning reading of what MAY happen if certain choices are made/not made. We all die in the end, THAT is our fate... but everything inbetween is down to free will. Example....So, say to me xxxx didn't chose to be a hooker, she had no other choice. Well, yes she did. xxxxx didn't chose to be a bag lady, she had no other choice xxxx well, yes she did. Maybe things like loyalty and pride aren't considered as choices you can back down from. Well, yes they are. It's down to the ego... however weak or strong it is. A.

Major Tom	31 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Marion There is a lot of destiny written into our genes, body chemistry, stuff our mom said and got internalized and buried etc etc. And I mean real destiny. What about young men who are life criminals because of body chemistry? Often destiny does control you. Marion makes an interesting point and she's absolutely right if you only have one life to live. :) If however, you factor reincarnation into the mix, then there's a case to be made for having chosen your family, thus your genes and body chemistry. I happen to believe we chose, prior to birth, the challenges we will meet in this life. I feel it's my fate to continue to point out to people that they are responsible for their own lifes. :laugh: If only I could learn that lesson myself... :laugh: Tarot provides the information we need to produce the outcomes we desire. Perhaps the woman in question would need to be viscious to achieve those desires... And dare I say it? Perhaps she might need to examine those desires?

Marion	31 May 2003
allibee say: "Maybe things like loyalty and pride aren't considered as choices you can back down from. Well, yes they are. It's down to the ego... however weak or strong it is. " I disagree and agree. Sometimes you have to die for loyalty. You can't back down. Pride is all ego, loyalty is not. There are so many levels that we frail humans have to deal with, and many of them are valid but seriously conflicting. Loyalty to a group, a principle, can override conscious choice and become fate. Much that is ennobling in history would not have happened if everyone had only made choices which were best for them personally. This is more general, and of course does not refer to the woman in the initial post. 'fate' is the situation in which we are embedded, strong codes that run through us, our own personal abilities to survive or even just cope. It is almost cruel to say categorically that 'your fate is in your hands'. You can alter many things, you can nudge and push the currents of fate, but it is not entirely our choice. As for mulitiple lives, that's another issue and I am not qualified to deal with it. However if I see anything, it is that this is the life you have.

Kiama	31 May 2003
Marion, you make an excellent point about genetics. Indeed, I do agee with what you say, and I really hsoul have said it in my original post: But I need to add something. Whilst I believe we can control our futures, thpose futures are limited by factors such as, as you said, genetics. For instance, the Ethiopian child is limited by where it lives and the state of its country, but it still does have some freedom in certain areas of its life, for instance: Does it steal from its neighbour, or does it choose not to? Now, we could argue endlessly for hours between freewill and determinism, and whilst that would be nice, I have discovered that there is no conclusion which can be reached. All we can say really is that: 1) We are limited in what we can choose by certain factors such as genetics, geography, IQ 2) But there are some things we can choose, such as whether or not to believe what our Mums told us, or whether or not to steal from a shop. In just the same way, the woman you speak of does have a choice to get off the self-destructive path, however she may be limited... But only to the extent that it makes her journey off the path much more difficult than it may be for the next person. The woman NeXoRious could be limited by genetics, and she may therefore be more likely to become a vicious woman. However, I think science has shown that its not just genetics that have a say in our behaviour, certainly not in what we ultimately become... Becoming a vicious woman would mean that this woman has to undertake certain activities, and change her personality. She doesn't have to. Can anybody really say that she has to? I doubt it. As an interesting side note... If we are to accept that all fate is predestined, and that we have no choice or control over the future, this does have interesting implications for many issues... For instance, if our fate is inescapable, can we really punish somebody for wrongdoing? The murderer was bound to kill anyway, so who are we to punish him for an action he could not escape doing? Personally, this is why I find the idea of fate being set in stone quite unsavoury. (I'm also a control freak, and like the idea that I'm in control of my life! ;)) Kiama

Kiama	31 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Marion There are so many levels that we frail humans have to deal with, and many of them are valid but seriously conflicting. Loyalty to a group, a principle, can override conscious choice and become fate. But isn't it true that one makes the choice to let one's other choices be overidden by loyalty to a group? Kiama

allibee	31 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Marion allibee say: "Maybe things like loyalty and pride aren't considered as choices you can back down from. Well, yes they are. It's down to the ego... however weak or strong it is. " I disagree and agree. Sometimes you have to die for loyalty. You can't back down. Pride is all ego, loyalty is not. There are so many levels that we frail humans have to deal with, and many of them are valid but seriously conflicting. Loyalty to a group, a principle, can override conscious choice and become fate. Much that is ennobling in history would not have happened if everyone had only made choices which were best for them personally. But at the end of the day, they chose their loyalties and alliegences. Yes, they were expected to die for their country... but nobody made them sign up... except in the case of the press gangs of 'olde england' :O) Their fate/their choices within that choice depended on their decision to join up, climb that mountain, discover those seas. But they made that initial choice. Free will. Ego. A.

Marion	31 May 2003
Well, we may have to agree to disagree here. By and large, you do not choose your loyalties, they choose you. A few years ago, when I was reading Jung, he made a statement that really took me aback when I first read it. This is likely not the exact wording, but "You do not have emotions, emotions have you". Frankly, I thought at the time that was either nuts or incomprehensible. I now accept it, because I have seen it and lived it and my self-awareness levels are much higher. Self-awareness is the most powerful tool we have in manipulating (not changing, not choosing) fate. The woman in the original post has many factors driving her down the road foreseen. She does not have to follow that road, but clearly she will have a much harder fight to not follow that road than say one of us might. I think it is fair to give people credit for the huge battles they have to fight. Over something that you might simply walk past. Choice is not simple, sometimes involving damage to oneself and to others for whom we care deeply. And we do not have absolute freedom choice. But we can learn that the universe flows and changes and even turns back on itself, and be being observant and self aware we can help ourselves. Without that last, you are helpless and will simply be carried along, forced into bad situations and baffled as to why it is happening.

quan_yin	31 May 2003
I prefer to think that we come here to learn specific lessons, but we are also given everything we need to learn that lesson. If we choose to, that is. In that way, someone may come in with more predisposition to an issue of viciousness. One of their life challenges is about overcoming this streak. In order to do that, I would like to think that all the tools are made available to assist that person in overcoming the issue. It will be much harder for them then, say, someone else who did not come in to learn about managing viciousness. But that it is, exactly. Everyone has different reasons for being here. But the person has to want to overcome this issue, and use free will to work on it. And even then, they may or may not make it all the way, this time around. If viciousness shows up in the cards, I would think it is underscoring a life goal, and I would think that it permeates many issues in the querant's life, and not just one. But I don't think it dooms them, though. Perhaps the purpose of a reading is to bring the issue to the queran'ts attention, if they do not already have the awareness. By doing that alone, perhaps that is the reason for the reading and things may already be nudged in a different direction. If they are aware already, then maybe the reading is to remind them to make better choices moving forward, that the issue is still lurking around and could cause more problems if unmanaged. To me, awareness does not just show up overnight. A person may be aware of an issue, say viciousness, but it may take many incidents until it is managed. But that does not mean they are doomed to never making it. My two cents.

allibee	31 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Marion Well, we may have to agree to disagree here. Choice is not simple, sometimes involving damage to oneself and to others for whom we care deeply. I think we may have to agree to disagree, LOL, but that's our choice :O) Nobody said choice was simple/easy or that no damage would occur though. I would reiterate though that the reading came across as one of warning, a reality check, an awareness timebomb ...the sitter can see it how she may BUT, as long as she does take it on board, she can then make a choice whether to go with the flow, or try something a lot harder... to change. A.

Marion	31 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by quan_yin .... we come here to learn specific lessons, but we are also given everything we need to learn that lesson. ... I have not observed that we are given everything we need to learn, and I assume you mean, overcome, a lesson. I do not think we get everything we need, and to go farther (a position which I acknowledge you did not take), I do not think that we only get those burdens which we can bear. Some of us are burdened beyond our strength and falter and even fall. Our fate is not entirely in our hands, choices cannot always be made. Once again, I reiterate that I am not preaching fatalism. See my earlier posts for clarification.

HudsonGray	31 May 2003
The woman seems to have a very hard time ahead of her. But there was no indication that she's working hard to change the future that seems to be predestined for her. If she did, if she made actual inroads, it's possible she could open up new options for herself and avoid the whole viciousness thing completely, or at least derail it to the point where her future shifts significantly. I feel for her. Genetics may or may not play a role in it, as does our early life training (so many women are taught the knight will come & take care of them, for instance). Those go in deep. Certain religious training goes extremely deep too. But all can at least be attempted to change. You mentioned male genetics & crime--I'm thinking you're referring to the double Y chromosome. So many violent, unreleaseable criminals have it--but NOT all men who have a YY Chromosome end up in prison thanks to violent crime. Those who find a different outlet for the aggression the YY brings on can avoid prison time. Hard as it would be to change it, they still CAN do it, others have. So the option of changing your future exists even for those. As for 'loyalty' being a set path, I think even there a person still has an option. You may take on loyalty, heart and soul, and it goes very deep indeed, but you still have the option of NOT doing the deed, the service, the thing socially required of you. Not all mothers save their children from burning buildings. Not all parents stop the child abuse the other causes. Not all people uphold their code of ethics 100% of the time. Not all children don't squeel on a friend cross your heart hope to die. The result when they don't do their loyalty thing is a huge, HUGE amount of pain and guilt, but the fact can stand that they didn't follow through possibly, and let the loyalty fall. Call it weakness in character. Call it fear. Call it self preservation--regardless. Not 100% of the people who have loyalty to something can find themself fulfilling the calls to show or act on what the loyalty requires of them. As such, yes, even loyalty can be backed away from under extreme circumstances and therefore can change a life's path, opening up (or closing) other options for them--changing the course of their lives and destiny. It's not easy, but it can be done.

Kiama	01 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Marion I do not think that we only get those burdens which we can bear. Some of us are burdened beyond our strength and falter and even fall. Our fate is not entirely in our hands, choices cannot always be made. I think we're probably saying the same thing actually... We are limited, but we do have many choices. Sometimes we are bound to fall under a heavy burder, but how we fall depends on choice. There are limitations placed upon us (Burdens beyond our strength) but with other things we can affect the outcomes. How we choose to fall will affect the future... We may land underneath the burden, thereby crushing ourselves. Or we may choose to roll away, thereby escaping being crushed but leaving behind repsonsibilities. Kiama

NeXoRiouS	01 Jun 2003
aHHHh.... you guys are good at linking from one topic to the other. Making nothing out of something. Anyway, I personally knows that fate is in our hands but don't you think the path before us has already been set. Divination of all sorts are just methods to salvage the forseen mistakes we would undertake in life. Has anyone ever wondered no matter how hard we try to change our fate, taking new paths, we eventually return to forseen spot. It just seems that avoiding what might happen would only seems to prove useless. I'm sure many of you will oppose what I said but bear in mind, there are unseen forces at work. Our life is just a wound up clock ticking every second following the same 360 degrees path and finally waiting to be wound up again. Humans are somehow puppets but without strings attached. We are free to move about deciding our next move but our movements are restricted. Our freedom is limited. If god exists, it is only up to him/her when we are freed or attached with strings. That's the reason why I fear what my friend's path will be. We have come into this world to pay back what we owe the previous life.Whatever we do this life, we have to pay back in our future life. This is a vicious cycle. So no matter how hard we have amended and corrected, we are still convicted. The reason I put up what I had done for her is as an example to view what our life has actually been planned to do. Our paths have been destined which I don't believe whatever genetics or body chemistry can define. What cause are we living for? Is it worth doing it?

allibee	01 Jun 2003
Interesting point of view Nexorious If that is the case, then what is the point in doing more than one reading for a person ever.... after all, if it's all there and unchangable, then there is no point in ever giving more than ONE reading. I can't say I share your views on any of your last post at all, and I cannot speak for anyone else who contributed to the discussion, but I doubt I am alone in this. A.

NeXoRiouS	01 Jun 2003
I believe that humans are born curious. In fact all life forms are. Anyway, all the readings were actually not related. But because one after another, I found the link connecting them. As though revealing a timeline beneath the cards. I believe it's because her questions are somehow linked in a way. When asked for a remedy, it seems that the way to escape this path of pain, it is to endure through it. It's as though there will definitely be sunshine after a storm. By following divination, it will only steer our path away from what might happen. It is as though avoiding. It's as though all started from a dot and our path goes zig zag, straight or diagonal. No matter how hard we steer from our obstacles, our path still leads to the final dot. It just seems that how hard we try to finalize our life by controlling it, we are back to the original spot. Vicious is a thought, executing what we desire is an action.

HudsonGray	01 Jun 2003
Well.....I guess that's your world view then. I don't think I share it to that great an extent. If there's no hope left to change anything that's predetermined, then what's the point of living? I do believe in reincarnation, but not in permenently set & locked motions going through the same thing over & over and over with no way out. I believe is something after death that may be an ending if you've achieved what you needed to achieve & can move on to a new circle (and it doesn't necessarily have to be regulated to this planet or galaxy either). But I could be wrong & maybe dead is really 'dead', like fish and earthworms and lower forms that I don't figure really upgrade to a new life circle. But then that's my opinion & there's nothing I can back it up with that's hard facts, like nobody can back up their ideas of the afterlife or current life paths along any other line. Fact is--there's no way to prove any of it definitively. It's all based on faith & faith is the hallmark of religion & no religion can 'prove' anything when you get right down to it. Personally, I want to believe I have a slew of choices and can move my life in such a way as to benefit from it. Who's to say I can't? It's certainly a train of thought that provides relief, hope, and a feeling that I make a difference to others and to the world in some way. Much better than being a puppet with no goal other than to die at the end & repeat it all over ad infinitum. Hmm.....this would put a slant on tarot readings for the present, I can see that. Even a cow in a pasture makes their own choices about what they do out there, where they eat, which cows to bug, who comes back to the barn first, and when to kick at the dog biting at their heels.

allibee	01 Jun 2003
The only certainty in life, is death, Nexorious. And yes, I think statistics have definately proved that :O) By the way, you keep saying : Vicious... exactly which card/cards are you referring to? A.

HudsonGray	01 Jun 2003
TAXES!!! Don't forget taxes are a certainty too!

NeXoRiouS	02 Jun 2003
Sigh. I have no idea what am I living for. My aim of living - I live to die. Anyway, the tarot cards didn't indicate viciousness. I simplified it and categorized it as vicious. Probably because the cards showed a path which must use underhand methods and/or despicable acts and eventually she will but at the cost of other people. Ending up only only having his "lover's" body and not the heart. Evolution created humans - intellectual beings or was it "GOD"? I have heard that the bible did indicate dinosaurs and all the evidence proving that "GOD" created the world and evolution. The most extravagant thing is it all happened and ended in 6 days. Come to think of it, are the prophets big liars or was it fabricated? Religion is more of a curse, strings attached to "guide" you through your life. Giving you a little miracles for eternal devotion. I hate religions. Anyway, back to the discussion. Do we manipulate our own lives or let nature take it's course?

Major Tom	02 Jun 2003
I'd like to quote Richard Bach from his book Illusions: "Argue for your limitations and they are yours."

allibee	02 Jun 2003
Clever man that Richard Bach .... couldn't agree more :O)

Kiama	02 Jun 2003
Major Tom: The child with no arms cannot throw a ball. Just one example of limitations. However, I disagree that all our lives are fated. Are don't believe in karma lasting throughout our lives, mainly because it has some abhorrent implications. And I don't see how one is fated to use underhand methods in order to achieve something, unless there is an intelligent being forcing us to only take that road. NeXoRious, do you believe in such a being? If you so, then I can see why you take the fated approach (I can't think of another name for it!) Personally however, I don't think that. Any forces at work upon us are not intelligent, they are merely out limitations (Such as having no arms.) Do we manipulate our own lives, ro do we let nature take its course? Hmmm... Well, first we need to work out whether or not there is 'nature taking its course'. There may be no such thing. Unless we see it as simply the present moving to the future... But then, the future is entirely dependent on the present, which leads us to conclude that what we do in the present affects the future. Now, in the present, your friend will have the choice whether to actually use the underhand methods you speak of. She doesn't have to choose them. I think we do manipulate our own lives, albeit within the limitations of our physical body, etc. I could have chosen to go to either Cardiff or Bristol university... I had a choice, and as such, when I made that choice I manipulated my life. I have a choice to revise or not to revise. I choose to revise. Therefore, I manipulate the outcome of my grades, and thus my life. However, even if I choose to fly, I cannot, because I am limited to not being able to fly. We may all live to die... But we can choose how we live up until that death. (Within the confines of our limitations.) Death, change, and birth are the only sure thing in life, and what happens in between is manipulated by us (Within our limitations!) Kiama

Marion	02 Jun 2003
Very well expressed Kiama. I think that mostly you expressed what I was trying to say as well. That we do have very real limitations, that sometimes what looks to an outsider as a choice, is really not choice. But, I believe that we can make significant changes in our lives, and that the tools for this are awareness and conscious choice (when possible). That we have limitations on every level, but we can overcome many of them, and the triumph of spirit can be one of the paramount sucesses in our lives. I think that we should not discount the very real limitations, be they genetic, cultural, loyalty-based, and tell people they can completely control their destinies. It is harsh because it absolves the world and society from any wrongs and puts the entire responsibility on the individual. And I think one of our choices needs to be to make those societal changes that are needed to help people have some of the valid ability to choose that they need to make successful lives. Which is not to say that individuals do not have some large resposibility for the course of their lives.

NeXoRiouS	02 Jun 2003
So, afterall I am wrong? haha. Then what am I living for?

allibee	02 Jun 2003
.......The child with no arms cannot throw a ball. Just one example of limitations....... I'm sorry, as a parent of a disabled child I couldn't agree less Kiama. Let's hope that child has legs and feet to manouver that ball with. If not, perhaps they have only the choice of watching the ball. If they are blind too, then maybe they can use their hearing to 'see' the particular rythm that ball can make when someone more able bodied moves it for them. However if they have no arms, no legs, are blind and deaf, maybe they just like rolling in them in the sensory rooms, and if they aren't able to do even that then perhaps they aren't interested in balls anyway :O) I don't agree with Marion either, LOL, but we've already been there, but what I would say NexoRious, is that you have a lot of living yet to do before you can perhaps make definative decisions and statements about life, the universe and everything for yourself. Stay open minded. Yes, I know we all think we know it all at 18, but take it from an oldie, you can change your mind as many times as you change underwear about such subjective things as 'life'. But the thing is, as tarot readers we have a responsibility not to allow our own predjudices/beliefs to come through in our readings for others. Just as an example, what if you are wrong, where does that leave your sitter? We must stop and think how our beliefs and the way we do or do not voice them comes across to the client. They may be hanging on your every word. Just a thought A.

Kiama	02 Jun 2003
Allibee: I don't understand... You just admitted yourself that the disabled child with no arms has a limitation. I said, that the child with no arms cannot throw a ball. I did not however say it cannot play with a ball at all. Its limitation causes it to find other ways of playing with the ball, but it is still limited in how it can play. I cannot speak Italian. I am limited it how I communicate with Italian people. Doesn't mean I can't communicate with them though. If we say we have no limitations, then we must also logically admit that we are omnipotent... Which is something we are definitely not. Unless what has happened here is that we have different definitions of the word 'limitation'...? NeXoRious: You are not wrong. In fact, all that we are saying here is entirely speculation, each and every one of us. We are just exchanging theories about how the universe works, and these theories, by their very nature, can never be fully proclaimed to be either right or wrong. Some of us believe we are fated. Some of us believe we are totally free. Some of us believe we are somwhere in between. None can (yet) be proven right or wrong. What are you living for? Life's fun. Life can be a great experience if you make it so. Me, I live for exactly that: The experience of life. I live for the people around me, the difference I can make in the world. :D Kiama

allibee	02 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Allibee: I don't understand... I did not however say it cannot play with a ball at all. Ah, but you didn't say that in your post. I haven't got my mind reading specs on today, LOL I cannot speak Italian. I am limited it how I communicate with Italian people. Doesn't mean I can't communicate with them though.... that's because you chose not to learn Italian This is what I'm trying to get at I think..... I am a fighter, for myself and my children, and I won't leave any stone unturned until I have gone down EVERY avenue, and I mean EVERY avenue, and even then I'll leave open the possiblity that an avenue may open up in the future, LOL. Optimist, no. Realist, yes. Limitations ... bhah humbug :O) Having no limitations doesn't equal omnipotence ... look at the murderer. They took someone elses life ... for whatever reason .... doesn't make them omnipotent. They chose to do it. They also, when caught, have to face the choices that are open to them now, brought about by their original choice. Why do battered wives stay with their husbands? Makes no sense ... not now anyway, because they have choices, no matter what the threat. Aha, I hear you say, what about the kidnapped person? Well, they have a choice whether to try and escape, whether to fight, whether to be submissive ... there, three choices....and two of them involve changing your circumstances Yup, maybe I'm the only one here who doesn't see circumstance as limitation. Sigh. A.

Kiama	02 Jun 2003
Indeed we do have different definitions of the word 'limitation', which is where we are disagreeing! (Damn definitions! })) You do not see circumstances as limitation. I see circumstances as limitation, in that they limit what we can do in life. You seem (And I'm just guessing this from your other posts) to see limitation as a bad, negative thing. I see limitation as being neutral, and our reaction to it being either positive or negative. I agree with you that we should fight and strive to find a way through limitations: I wouldn't be who I am today if I had not done so myself. But I think we have to recognise that sometimes no matter how hard we fight and strive, there are places we just cannot go. Physicality is a prime example, so I'll use it again: Let's assume we're all human. Let's also assume that there is a large steamroller driving over us. I guarantee you, that because of our body structure, we are limited to do one thing only beneath that steam roller: Get squished. It is a fact that the child with no arms cannot throw the ball. It's a limitation. But that doesn't mean it's entirely negative. It doesn't mean we can't find other ways for the child to play with the ball. That child was born without arms: It did not choose that. Neither did anybody. It just happened. Here, we are presented with an example of where we have no choice, where we are limited to a certain extent. It doesn't mean we are bounded in slavery though. The child still has the choice to play with the ball in other ways: Will it play football today, or will it roll around in a ball pit? (Me, I'd choose the ball-pit any day!) Circumstances can be limitations. I have hardly any money: Therefore, due to my circumstances, I cannot choose to buy that Ferrari I so want. As fighters, strivers, and realists, we may explore every avenue, and leave no stone unturned, but it is still a fact that there are some things we cannot possibly do, no matter how much we want to. However, back to the reading NeXoRious did: That is an example of where there are no circumstances limiting the person. There are no extraneous circumstances forcing that person to use underhand methods. Therefore she still has a choice and is not bound by fate to be underhand. Kiama

Khatruman	02 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by allibee Yes, I know we all think we know it all at 18, but take it from an oldie, you can change your mind as many times as you change underwear about such subjective things as 'life'. Just as an example, what if you are wrong, where does that leave your sitter? We must stop and think how our beliefs and the way we do or do not voice them comes across to the client. They may be hanging on your every word. Just a thought And a very good thought! Has anyone ever come across a journal he or she wrote at 18 and just cringed at the confidence of their enlightenment on how the world is that is basically a bunch of bull dookie??? Or a sophomore college paper with these bold statements of philosophy that are laughable. Ahhh, sophomore, the sophist, one who really doesn't know anything but feels if they say it confidently enough, they can get away with it!!! Seems there was a famous philosopher who said that the more he learned in life, the more he came to realize that he knew nothing... :D Realizing that you haven't found 42, and may never find it, is one step closer to being open to all the possibilities in the world. Hmmm, how many roads must a man walk down? 42...nahhhh :D

Kiama	02 Jun 2003
However, being 18 does not invalidate anything one might say. Being wrong does, but just being 18 does not. I understand that there is still much an 18 year old needs to learn, but guys, we don't need to use that against people do we? On a side note, do you believe if faeries? How many adults do you know that could see faeries, compared to the number of children? It is widely held that children are more open, and therefore more wise than the adult, when it comes to faeries... Age does not mean that the younger person is wrong, nor that the older person is right. Kiama *An 18 year old*

allibee	02 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Indeed we do have different definitions of the word 'limitation', which is where we are disagreeing! (Damn definitions! })) However, back to the reading NeXoRious did: That is an example of where there are no circumstances limiting the person. There are no extraneous circumstances forcing that person to use underhand methods. Therefore she still has a choice and is not bound by fate to be underhand. Kiama Yup, I think thats about it :O). I see disability as a FACT, to be worked around. Or any other FACT, for that matter. The word LIMITATION invokes a sense of ... errr ... LIMITATIONS, LOL. It starts as a negative. Something you work back from. Where as a FACT, is something that is a starting point. However NexoRious's sitter, I could be wrong, has all their faculties. Which brings us back to the beginning, LOL, which is where .... I hope I remember this as I don't want to lose this post .... I said I felt exactly that, LOL, she can change her 'fate' as seen by NexoRious... although it won't necessarily be easy. Khat: I shall reach enlightenment on July 3rd then :O)! Just a few more weeks to go, LOL A.

allibee	02 Jun 2003
No one is anti 18 here .... we are just mentioning, from experience, oft times bitter, that you can and do see things differently when you get older. (I mean there's got to be one upside of getting older and saggier hasn't there? LOL) But remember, we've been 18 too. People forget that. There's nothing wrong with what you are saying as an 18 year old.... however, come back at 40 something and tell me that your thoughts and values are still exactly as they are now, and I won't believe you :O) A.

Umbrae	02 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by NeXoRiouS Then what am I living for? So that you will die… But wait! There’s more! Life ain’t like a race track where we go round and round…it’s like a drag-strip…crash and burn or reach the end – it’s your decision… …or so it seems… Most folks miss that it’s what occurs between the green flag and the checkered flag that means anything. The flags themselves carry no meaning. You never know how far out (or when) the end of the track is…but each step takes us closer to that end… …so folks go into denial, they talk about being stuck on the merry-go-round…they come to us and look for meaning – a reason that lies between the dates that bracket their lives on the cenotaph… Stop looking at the pretty flags…the whole world is your audience…listen to the sound of your engine and don’t over-rev the beast. Remember – folks look to us to find their hope and meaning – if you can’t find yours, what do you have to give? Stop looking at the flags…

Khatruman	02 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama It is a fact that the child with no arms cannot throw the ball. It is a fact that a child with no arms cannot throw a ball with his arms. This doesn't mean he cannot find a way to use his feet, his mouth, construct some kind of prosthetic to THROW a ball. And if you define throwing as something done with arms, then you are limiting your definition of the accomplishment of the task, which is to get the ball airborne towards a target. There is where the limitation lies. What is the goal? To get the ball into a projectile state towards a destination. Has the boy with no arms found a way to accomplish it? Well, if he scoops it with his feet and hurls it, then he certainly has. My point is not to criticize the example, but to show that one must look at the goal, not necessarily the method to accomplish it, and often limitation comes from deciding that the task must be accomplished in the "normal" way. On the criticism of 18 year olds. I know my point was not to put down 18 year olds for not knowing enough. I agree with the wisdom of children being open to an imaginative realm, in knowing the subjectivity of reality. Everything is new and they are able to see relationships that we, who have been taught to look at things in a certain way, can no longer see. My point was that, at that age, many teenagers beging to feel they have finished learning, therefore they know all. With this attitude, they have thus closed off possibility of change and further learning. Feeling one has finished learning, at ANY age, is a delusion, and also a dangerous thing.

Umbrae	02 Jun 2003
Hey, anybody remember a movie called “My Left Foot”? …nuph said…

allibee	02 Jun 2003
my band was called Nuff Zed, LOL and yes, I do remember My Left Foot, I also remember a chap by the name of Stephen Hawking. A.

Kiama	02 Jun 2003
Khat: If NeXoRiouS had really fallen into the trap of thinking he/she had finished learning, I doubt he/she would be here asking such interesting questions! :D Sorry if I overreacted, but right now I am facing... er... limitations (})) because of people's negative reaction to my age. Kiama

allibee	02 Jun 2003
*Siggy Freud dude enters room....* "come, lie on zis couch Kiama ... now Kiama, what makes you think zat anybodies was talking or addressing you directly AT ALL?" "eh, sorries, I can't hear you" "I vonder, do you have a complex about dis?" "Here, look at zee posts again, and see where it all went wrong for you....." Quote: but what I would say NexoRious, is that you have a lot of living yet to do before you can perhaps make definative decisions and statements about life, the universe and everything for yourself. Stay open minded. Yes, I know we all think we know it all at 18, but take it from an oldie, you can change your mind as many times as you change underwear about such subjective things as 'life'. Notice the word WE there.... Quote: And a very good thought! Has anyone ever come across a journal he or she wrote at 18 and just cringed at the confidence of their enlightenment on how the world is that is basically a bunch of bull dookie??? Or a sophomore college paper with these bold statements of philosophy that are laughable. Ahhh, sophomore, the sophist, one who really doesn't know anything but feels if they say it confidently enough, they can get away with it!!! Perhaps you 'ave not come across this journal yet, no? "My diagnoseeees is: I zink Kiama you are being reactive, wizout getting your facts correct }) " "also, I beg you to look at zis.... Quote: aHHHh.... you guys are good at linking from one topic to the other. Making nothing out of something. ... The reason I put up what I had done for her is as an example to view what our life has actually been planned to do. Our paths have been destined .. "My bill is in zee post!" :O)

Diana	02 Jun 2003
This thread is getting a little off-topic here. (I'll take advantage of this to add that I know plenty of 30 year olds, 40 year olds, 50 year olds, etc. etc. etc. who have very definitive answers about how they think the world is made. And we are all "guilty" of this at times. The older the person gets who behaves like this, the more painful it becomes for those around them. It is a natural phenomenon. It is definitely not only the province of 18 year olds.) Are Tarot Readings really set in stone? Most definitely. The Readings are real. They do not lie. But humans are clever......... if they want to be. They can take that stone and crush it and turn it into powder. It needs faith and courage. And sometimes we run out of time, and we die before the stone can be completely crushed. :( Sometimes it is the energy we have put into crushing it that kills us so it is good to know whether it's worth it or not. Some things are worth fighting for, others aren't. I will return to this post in ten years time and see if I still believe what I have just written.

HudsonGray	02 Jun 2003
Boy, go offline for a measly 12 hours.... Nex I'm not 18, I'm 46, I've changed my world view drastically 3 times and in minor ways probably once a week. Whatever you're thinking now, you won't likely think it next year. Don't go all deep & broody (works for Angel on Buffy, doesn't work for many others, it usually turns to depression). Besides, he's got the hair for it & the coat to pull it off. Life changes more times than the weather--don't get so down. Rent a comedy, make popcorn, go feed the ducks in the park, things aren't bad. Limitations are what you make of them. I went to grade school with someone who got polio when she was 3. Her left arm was withered to about 1 1/2" thick, she was the best baseball player we had on the team & was a killer at dodgeball. When someone needed to find her one year on the playground I went through the "umm, she's got brown hair, glasses, freckles...." and went DOH! 5 minutes after they left when I realized I only had to describe her arm. The arm wasn't something that stood out for me because she never let it be a limit, we didn't make allowances for it & it wasn't part of how I thought of her. Limitations are in the mind, quite often. Anyone new meeting her would see the arm first & have that be more representative of her than who she really was. Time erases it. Umm, probably experience too. I suspect everyone's world view has been laid out pretty well in this thread, we come at it from all perspectives, all ages, all cultural roles, and all life scripts. It's good to see so many positives in the posts.

Major Tom	03 Jun 2003
I suppose it depends on what you think the goal is - on what you believe in. It's a matter of faith. }) The secret to life is what you want. :laugh:

Kiama	03 Jun 2003
Allibee: Since when has it been wrong to defend one's fellow man? And yes, I do have a 'complex' about it, but then again, do you really blame me? Come sit on the couch, and I shall tell you all about why my life has been made inexplicably difficult due to negative reactions to my age such as those made in this thread. (Yes, I know it was aimed generally, but like I said, I jumped in to defend all 18 year olds. I do that often.) Anyway, back to the topic... Diana, I love your allegory of stone crushing. How does one go about crushing the stone? (Other than with faith and courage) Kiama

allibee	03 Jun 2003
deleted by me

Khatruman	03 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama And yes, I do have a 'complex' about it, but then again, do you really blame me? Come sit on the couch, and I shall tell you all about why my life has been made inexplicably difficult due to negative reactions to my age such as those made in this thread. Unfortunately, the attitude becomes a self-perpetuating thing. Older folks see 18 year olds as immature and think they know it alls, and because older people foster this attitude, 18 year olds find themselves pushed to express an arrogance of knowledge to show the older ones that they are not dumb kids. So it looks like both sides hold a bit of responsibility for the stereotype, which is unfortunately what often happens with misconceptions. Kiama, for myself, I apologize if my own remarks have led to stereotyping. My only agenda is for everyone, whatever age, to be open to the possibility that there is something he or she doesn't understand, and thus gain better understanding of the complexity of human existence. Peace.

allibee	03 Jun 2003
For myself I was speaking as an ex 18 year old.. which I made very clear. I find it very irritating that people twist what you say for their own idiosyncratic views and motives. I thought a forum was where one was allowed to express themselves and pass on their experiences, apparently I was mistaken. When you make remarks such as yours Kiama, it is not difficult for me to see why people have such a negative response to you, that you claim. My life was a lot less sad without this forum, even though it was somewhat unfulfilled. However, I shall still finish my HP card by the 23rd. I'm sorry Diana, but I tried my best. A.

Diana	03 Jun 2003
(((((((allibee)))))))

Diana	03 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama How does one go about crushing the stone? (Other than with faith and courage) Kiama Other than faith and courage? It helps sometimes to look at oneself in the mirror. Strip oneself naked (symbolically or literally - both can help.) Because it makes one humble. It is also helpful to set oneself a goal. You cannot win a war without a strategy. But one sometimes needs to adjust the strategy according to circumstances. Therefore, great vigilance is required. And always to stand up for one's rights. Not in defiance. But because they are your birthright. If, by standing up for your rights, you end up by walking on other people's rights, then there is something wrong with your basic premises, and they should be revised. (Without feeling guilty - we all make mistakes.) Most importantly: Never ever forget that you are a child of the universe. Nothing and no-one can EVER EVER deprive you of this. Even if they kill you, you will still be called the Beloved Offspring.

Diana	03 Jun 2003
(Off-topic. I had the occasion to observe many many 18 year olds (give or take a year or two) during the demonstrations held in Lausanne duing the G8 summit this last weekend. I bow down to their courage and their love for freedom and to their vision of a just and humane world. They made me feel very humble indeed and I came home and stripped myself naked and didn't like all that I saw........)

Khatruman	03 Jun 2003
Diana, your eloquence is matched only by your beautiful heart. I echo your sentiments. We are all creatures of the universe, and as such, need to remember the importance of staying in harmony with all those other members of the universe. Blessings to you.

NeXoRiouS	03 Jun 2003
I am flabbergasted. To think there were so many responses in this thread. Thanks for the support. :) Anyway, I never mentioned I knew it all. I was just expressing how I was feeling at the moment. Whoever said earlier on that there was this guy whom once learned more, came to know nothing, I am feeling that now. It just seems that whatever I happened to find out, I just can't seem to open the door to what I wish to know more. In fact, I don't know much, all I know is only the surface and I get other's ideas and fill up the hole. This is me. I am actually 17, yet over my birthday. I have friends living normal lives but I just can't fit in the crowd. I think too much as a result caused me to be sort of a nuts. That's the reason why I don't feel like 17. I am a person who can't seem to hate, love and express. Call me cold-blooded. People close to me tend to say because I have yet to meet the woman of my life but I have the ability to control my thoughts from doing what I want. So it's like even if I like someone, I can shun away without feeling heartache or whatsoever. Call me ignorant but I will always be obstinate. I like the phrase that MajorTom quoted from richard bach's book of illusion. It says "Argue for your limitations and they are yours." It is me! I am small boy in the eyes of the adults here, but do you really know what I am thinking about? How I love seclusion. I hate it when people says that i will change my mindset over time but don't you realise I love to bask in what I am now, being sadist. My finale sentence - I hate life.

HudsonGray	03 Jun 2003
"I have friends living normal lives but I just can't fit in the crowd. I think too much as a result caused me to be sort of a nuts. That's the reason why I don't feel like 17. I am a person who can't seem to hate, love and express. Call me cold-blooded. People close to me tend to say because I have yet to meet the woman of my life--" This may be your problem, living up to others' expectations. Why SAYS you have to think & act like all the others your age??? Many kids in my high school sure didn't & felt ostracised for it, but they tended to be the more intelligent people in the school when you sat down & thought about it. Why SAYS you need to be dating??? You don't. By having all this pushed at you & the pressures to conform to a standard norm I can see why you've pulled back & started changing your thinking to cut things off in your life. The results for you can have long term consequences (not good ones). Wouldn't it be better to accept that you're not run of the mill & need to allow yourself to have more leeway in being who you are, rather than letting others ideas of 'who you should be' set the pace for you?

NeXoRiouS	04 Jun 2003
True...maybe this could be the problem. I do live life my own way and I do enjoy the atmosphere. In fact I am finding people whom share the same views as me. Anyway, I am continuing hating life. lalalalala

alexis	04 Jun 2003
Hmmm... I say! this is probably a phase in life that everyone will go through now and then. Hating life now and then, feeling like a loser sometimes, think the world is ending etc etc... LOL, I remember when I was 17 and I read Nostradamus, I really felt like life is meaningless cos come year 2000 we will all be dead. Glad I got out of that depress stage of life. Look at me now! hey, I am still alive! :) So Nex, life is not all that bad and whether u think u are cold blooded, u hate life etc. Time will prove it all. But while it is proving ur true character and shaping your beliefs remember to keep living as best as u can. After all, u are only 17/18/19 so on and so forth once in ur life... hang on in there ok country mate, and hmmm.. if u are entering national service soon I think I can comprehend why u feel the way u feel now. Army: sigh... really makes one wish they were dead. ...

The Are Tarot Readings really set in stone? thread was originally posted on 31 May 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.