but, but, but what if the Tower isn't supposed to crumble?!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	31 May 2003
You may need to read this sitting down.... take a deep breath (don't forget to breathe out). Okay, in case of injury, I am going to pass the buck right away, its all Diana's fault (again!). Diana opened a thread to introduce us to Kris Hadar's Virtual Institute of Tarot-- ===> www.krishadar.com I read Kris Hadar for about three seconds, then ShABANG -- a bolt of lightening struck my head. Whoaaaaaaaaaaah. Get me a drink! A cognac please! Kris Hadar says about the TOWER OF GOD (in his section about choosing a deck) Indeed! In the Marseilles deck, the Tower (Maison Dieu) does not crumble at all! Only the top lifts off. How symbolic is that?! It makes me think of Alissa's thread on the Tower and the Ace of Cups - the tarot as opening of the mind into the spiritual, as "mind-blowing experience". That the tower does not crumble, now seems so obvious, but I had never seen it before. In our threads on the Marseille Maison Dieu this was briefly mentioned by Supletion, but we did not pay attention. Will Hadar's reflexions shake and topple the very foundations of Aeclectic tarologie? Does it add to or change your understanding of the Tower? Anyone care to comment? ----------------------------------

Kiama	31 May 2003
Whether the Tower crumbles or its top just blows off, its all the same... Both are metaphors for the freeing of the mind from the previous entrapments, but, dpending on the process of freeing the mind, we could have differences in how the Tower is... Sometimes it takes a catastrophe and a total breaking down of everything around you to open your mind to the truth. Sometimes it takes the foundations to be pulled from under your feet, for you to open your mind to the truth. And sometimes it takes a loss of the roof above your head, so that you can see the stars clearly, for your mind to be open to the truth. In some versions of the House of God/Tower, the people are simply fleeing from a burning building. This to me, is also about freeing oneself. I would slightly disagree with Hadar, who seems to have taken the more negative view of destruction: I would say that this card does indicate destruction, but not destruction in a negative way - Destruction of the false beliefs/premises one has been living under, so that one can finally realise where the truth lies. Kiama

Marion	31 May 2003
Interesting comments firemaiden and Kiama. I know the Fey tarot is not one of the classic decks, but in that one the bottom of the tower is crumbling away as the tower lifts into the air. Metaphorically much the same, an apparently solid heavy structure is rising into the air and gradually the base is falling away. In other words, the part where it is stuck to the ground. I also do not think the whole building has to fall in order for you to be able to look up and see the heavans.

allibee	31 May 2003
Yes, I agree with Kiama here. I found a few things there I couldn't agree with. It's the metaphor, not the image that's important A.

Silverlotus	31 May 2003
I don't been to be inappropriate, but in decks where only the top of the is lifted off, I tend to see the meaning as more sexual then mental. Umm... sort of like sexual tension pulling things apart, getting out of hand. This is probably why I don't use a deck with only the top coming off. :)

Kiama	31 May 2003
I like Silverlotus' take on this alot! Thanks Silverlotus, I'd never thought of that before! :D Kiama

Marion	31 May 2003
This is one of the reasons why I have never agreed that the images of the destruction of the WTC made a 'perfect' image of the Tower. I think that idea warps the message being delivered by the Tower archetypal image.

Cerulean	31 May 2003
Tower, solid. The House of God. But this was in 1806-1810 after the tarocchi designs of Milan and France had so many cross-cultural currents. The revolutionary spirits that led up to Napeolonic rule had undergone a more statuesque Neoclassical mode. After all other institutions were crumbling, perhaps the hope touched in this design was a fortress or institution being rebuilt. It was around the time just before Napeleon abdicated in 1814, so his son (King of Italy with the Iron Crown of Lombardy, no less) and second wife Marie Louise was still in the ruling house of Emporer Napoleon. Di Gumppenberg's design is one of those variant's that do give you pause. I don't think a lot of designers afterwards favored his version. But if you wanted to date the design, here's one citing for you. These are guesses, so you may have better information. It's been awhile since I've looked up my Berti description of this design--if it is of interest, I'll at least check Kaplan and Berti to see if they say anything about the design for the Neoclassical/Ancient Tarots of the Lombardy Tower. Best wishes, Mari H.

Mr. Sluagh	01 Jun 2003
This is why if I ever made a Tarot deck, my Tower would instead be called "The Flag" and would look something like this (pasted from a thread of mine on the "Tarot Deck Creation" forum): A flag showing the sun flanked by a sword and a stave (haven’t quite settled on the design yet. Might change it once I read up on the old heraldric codes a little.) waves above a multitude of patriots as they cheer ecstatically, exalting in its glory. In the foreground, the Fool weeps in horror, repulsed by their naïvite. See, this design changes two major things as far as the symbolism goes: firstly, a tower is an actual stronghold of a monolithic institution, whereas a flag simply represents it and doesn't hold any power in and of itself. The trouble is that it still holds power over those who believe in it and in fact blinds them to the ugly truths around them. Secondly, the institution isn't showing any signs of falling any time soon and all that's really changed is that the Fool has seen it for what it really is and has the power to do what he can to fight it. Thoughts?

amyel	01 Jun 2003
I've always interpreted the Tower as "rocking your foundations to the core", and usually on an inner level. For example, you believe that the sky is green, and no one has ever managed to convince you otherwise. One day, you wake up and the sky is now blue. WHOA!!!!! As a result, you start to see everything in a different light and probably re-act/act differently, too. That's just my interpretation. Sorry for the perhaps silly example, but I was searching for one that wouldn't stray into the lines of politic or religious arguements...LOL

firemaiden	01 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by amyel I've always interpreted the Tower as "rocking your foundations to the core", and usually on an inner level. Yeah, me too, Amyel, that is why I find Kris Hadar 's observation so interesting. It really flies in the face of the "conventional" [read rwsc and after] meaning of the card, as I have understood it to be.

NeXoRiouS	01 Jun 2003
Exaggerated? I don't really think so. The usage of the entire tower came crumbling down though really expanded the meaning but made us understand clearer. If you will to say that the top was lifted off, you only see the tip of the lies, deceit and secrets. Whereas, when you mention the entire tower, it gives the insight of knowing everything and to your horror, it can bring much more significant pain and damage. Tarot reading is all about story telling. So it would be better to make it dramatic. :) Just a penny of thoughts.

DarkElectric	01 Jun 2003
Mr Sluagh... An original, and fascination perception of the Tower. I like it, sir, I like it. Sure, it can be a political statement, but it can also illuminate the blind obsession with "Creative" conceptual constructions, social engineering, and the apparent mass desire to participate in a shared consensus of outright lies. The bastion of the Power Elite being referred to as "The Ivory Tower" comes to mind here, as well as what that represents. Everything begins in the realm of "Idea". It is manifested in the world of form through the agency of human action. I see the tower as the demystification of "Idea". This is the point where real change is generated.

firemaiden	01 Jun 2003
Nexorius wrote Quote: If you will to say that the top was lifted off, you only see the tip of the lies, deceit and secrets. Whereas, when you mention the entire tower, it gives the insight of knowing everything and to your horror, it can bring much more significant pain and damage. I disagree, I think having the tower crumble does not expand its meaning, it changes it altogether. When we talk about pain and damage, we are in the register of destruction. But the crown lifting off suggests someting much more positive -- an opening of the crown chakra. A door opening. An epiphany. Divine Intervention. A divine revelation. Falling in love at first sight -- le "coup de foudre" -------- P.S. I always thought the ivory tower refered to the University :( They said when I left the "ivory tower" of the university I would begin to see the real world. Then I found out, outside of the university, few can see the real world at all, because they are too busy earning an honest living, and don't have time to look :( :(

DarkElectric	01 Jun 2003
Ivory Tower can mean University, but in the context that I'm familiar with the term, it means an isolated, lofty position of power which is quite distant from the struggles and daily lives of the masses, and in fact, is a conceptual reality from where their destinies are controlled by these "Decision Makers". This isn't exactly Uni, but at one time a university education was a privilege of the upper classes. At least in industrial America, it delineated social class very effectively. The development of State Universities leveled the playing field a bit, but someone with a degree from Harvard was percieved as being of higher social class than someone with a degree from U-Massachusetts. Even if the Harvard grad barely scraped through with C's, and the U-Mass grad was Summa Cum Laude. I think that the term as refers to Uni is a holdover from that period in history. In the vernacular of social activism, however, it refers to the Power Elite.

mags@Treadwells	01 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden [b] You may need to read this sitting down.... take a deep breath (don't forget to breathe out). Okay, in case of injury, I am going to pass the buck right away, its all Diana's fault (again!). Diana opened [ [/s[/b] etc etc Umm, just a quickie. All my teachers have told me its number 1 function is "release" - freeing the ppl inside, rather than any actual crumbling of buildings. So what this guy 's saying doesn't really make anyone here think twice. Lovely post, DE - as always. Respec

isthmus nekoi	01 Jun 2003
oo, my most frequent card, the Tower.... The reason why I think we use the symbol of a building is because it emphasizes the *structure* of... say, an ideology, or a cognitive pattern..... structure is tied to limitation.... once you have a structure, you work w/i the structure. w/o structure, there's no cognition. Period. However, w/structure, you limit the avenues of your cognition. The world never falls apart, symbols and archetypes never fall apart, but buildings will always fall b/c they are made solely by man. Um.... just my opinion though, I've never really read this anywhere, I'm sure there are other good reasons for using a building...... or not. Back to the original q. The thing about Tower is... usually in a Tower experience, I imagine a lifting off would mean certain foundations don't change. For example, no matter how weird life gets..... you can always count on things like... gravity..... the sun shining.... your heart beating... etc. You can also usually count on being exactly who you are, even when you are changing. If you can hold onto that, that's very nice and important. I think this is what happens to most ppl going through a very hard time. However........... if you can't hold onto that, and *everything* crumbles............ that is very very dangerous, can be serious trouble.... Too much God can be very very troublesome..... Most cards I have seen do not have the *foundations* of the tower crumbling, even if there's more trouble than losing a roof. I believe one card that does attack the foundation of the Tower is Thoth - it's all mouth. To me that represents having the conscious structure of the ego being totally swallowed by the unconscious and this is a very very devestating experience - however, if you know what you are doing, it can be very spiritual... sometimes I think this is what shamans do - surrender, but not so completely that they lose their minds. Sometimes falling in love can be like that too, eh... p.s. DarkElectric, thanks for the clarification. I used to think the term implied that you got stuck up in the ivory tower, Rapunzel like.... getting more and more out of touch w/reality and people in general (uh, which is how I sometimes felt whilst researching in school), being trapped while chasing your PHD etc...

Alex	02 Jun 2003
be locked in a tower in the castle, for various reasons? Mostly women, if they were suspected of being crazy, or if the stood on the way of some powerfull man, preventing him from getting some youngster as a lover. One of the oldest poems written in Brazil describes the destiny of a woman locked in the tower who got very confused at night looking at the moon in the sky and a moon in the sea. She wanted both so badly ... she jumped... freed herself... her body went to the moon in the sea, her soul went to the moon in the sky. A poetic description of schizophrenia, as I see it. Anyway, the lightning only has to reach the top of the tower. Alex.

allibee	02 Jun 2003
You've all forgotten the most famous tower of all... the TOWER of London, home to so many dark and evil doings in the medival period and feared all over the Europe! A.

Kiama	02 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by mags@Treadwells Umm, just a quickie. All my teachers have told me its number 1 function is "release" - freeing the ppl inside, rather than any actual crumbling of buildings. So what this guy 's saying doesn't really make anyone here think twice. The crumbling of buildings is a metaphor for the release. We aren't talking about the Tower card meaning any buildings are gonna collapse, but we are talking about how the collapse of the Tower in the card is a metaphor for release. Kiama

isthmus nekoi	02 Jun 2003
Release of the ego via trauma could *result* in suicide and schitzophrenia, yes. Also, any type of mob behaviour where the individual is wholly absorbed by the group - cults spring to mind. Addiction/obsession is another example. More ambiguous results could be love, or art.

jmd	04 Jun 2003
It is certainly interesting that the Tower on Marseille decks has a depiction which again has so many inherent ambiguities. To my eyes, there is no doubt that it is related historically to the confused and combined depiction of, on the one hand, the Infancy Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, in which the arrival of infant Jesus in a Temple in Egypt caused its 'idols to be thrown to the ground, and on the other the mediæval view as to what such a temple could be: ie, a Islamic one surmounted by a minaret. Hence partially some of my comments in the thread in the History & Iconography Forum on this card. Still, the naïvity of the depiction warrants its ambiguity fully acknowlegded: is the Tower crumbling; is it fire/brimstone or lightning/'foudre' (quite a different light-less connotation in the French); is the 'Crown' opening, or the top being toppled in destruptive divine act; is the lower figure falling too from the top, or out of a door-way? So is the Tower 'supposed' to crumble, or not? From my perspective, the image is the image. Its crumbliness lies in its interpretation - hence part of the beauty of the Marseille. To say that the Tower does not crumble is as much an interpretation as to say it does. In decks which clearly depict the image as crumbling, it is, in many ways, a deviation from the Marseille. A deviation which remains, in my opinion, unfortunate.

Diana	04 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd is it fire/brimstone or lightning/'foudre' (quite a different light-less connotation in the French Lightening can also be translated as "éclair" in French.

jmd	04 Jun 2003
From my rather more dim memory of far yonder years, when lightning strikes a building or tree, it is usually referred to not as 'éclair' (which tends to refer to distant or sheet lightning), but as the lightning-bolt force of God - or 'foudre'. However, I do stand corrected in the word's usual translation, which I hadn't considered in my previous comments... so thank you :) In the French tradition, following Marteau, I was under the impression that the fiery quality of whatever it is that is occurring at the top of the tower is of greater import in any case.

isthmus nekoi	04 Jun 2003
It's interesting the Tower is preceded by the Devil who is often refered to as Lucifer - light bringer.

Diana	04 Jun 2003
jmd: "Foudre" is the combination of both the light and the noise of the thunder. "Eclair" is only the light. Now the question is: Is there thunder when the Tower crumbles or doesn't crumble?

Major Tom	20 Jan 2004
Isn't it actually light that hits the tower rather than lightening? Light that throws everything into stark relief. Light that reveals all. :) Light that lifts the lid to reveal what's inside. ;) Sometimes it can be devastating to see. :laugh:

~X~	20 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom Isn't it actually light that hits the tower rather than lightening? Light that throws everything into stark relief. Light that reveals all. :) Light that lifts the lid to reveal what's inside. ;) Sometimes it can be devastating to see. :laugh: Yes, I think so. I have always viewed the Tower in this way, regardless if it is actually crumbling in the particular deck I'm using or not. To me, the "crumbling" is of a spiritual or emotional nature instead of physical; thereby, making it a matter of perspective.

Alissa	20 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd but as the lightning-bolt force of God - or 'foudre'... I seem to remember from my college French classes that love at first sight was described as "un coup de foudre," a clap of thunder literally. When we fall in love, which as Isthmus pointed out could be one result of a Tower situation, it can sometimes pull the rug out from beneath us. It can shake up how we see ourselves, how we view our world. In that sense, part of our world may indeed crumble and fall. My belief is that what crumbles away was illusion, and only the illuminating Truth is what remains undisturbed ... uncrumbled ;). If we're lucky, the Tower's world-altering experience can expand us into a greater understanding ... take us a little closer to that universal Source. I felt my own Tower experience last April was something akin to this.

kwaw	20 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa I seem to remember from my college French classes that love at first sight was described as "un coup de foudre," a clap of thunder literally. When we fall in love, which as Isthmus pointed out could be one result of a Tower situation, it can sometimes pull the rug out from beneath us. It can shake up how we see ourselves, how we view our world. In the English (GD/Crowley) tradition the tower is associated with the hebrew letter Pe, which they attribute to the planet mars as the 'yetziratic' attribution. Yet in the majority of versions of the Sefer Yetzirah the letter Pe is attributed to Venus, the planet (and goddess) of love. Kwaw

wildinthemist	20 Jan 2004
I have only just started reading this thread but silver someone (sorry I've forgotten your name already!!!!) wrote: "I don't been to be inappropriate, but in decks where only the top of the is lifted off, I tend to see the meaning as more sexual then mental. Umm... sort of like sexual tension pulling things apart, getting out of hand. I found this an interesting take given that the Tower follows the Devil!!!!

EarthAngel2911	20 Jan 2004
Hi Wild! *waving* Alissa, Here I am at work, and I swore I would just read a couple of posts, log off, and get back to work! But I clicked on your Tower link and I was transported... When you described your experience, it brought tears to my heart. Tears of envy maybe? What an incredibly beautiful experience you had! It reminds me of a documented NDE of Mellon-Thomas Benedict. (You can read it here http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html) This was the first NDE I had read that was non-denominational really. I enjoyed "Embraced by the Light" by Bettie J. Eadie, but that was really too "Christian" for my beliefs, if you know what I mean. Then after reading Benedict's experience, it led me to believe that we will experience what Spirit thinks we need to transition. (But that's for another topic and board!) Anyway, back to your incredible experience... to see life and existence from this perspective would be to become one with Spirit, to be as we were "in the Beginning," so to speak. If more of us had the opportunity to experience such a thing, think of what a different world we would live in. Ok, and now back to the Tower discussion!! :P As you described your experience and related it to RP's 78DW quotes, I saw the Tower in a whole new light. (no pun intended!) I think, gone are the fears of a crumbling tower, because as you have shown, you do not need to have a debilitating mishap to experience the Tower. I can now see the Tower in a much more spiritual way, maybe more of what it was intended to be? This whole thread is interesting for me, because the Tower has always been my most dreaded card. I always expect to be fired, or have someone I love be in a terrible car accident, or some such thing whenever it shows up. But it doesn't have to be this at all. To be shown the Cosmos and how we fit in is the Ultimate Tower experience. This allows me to relate to the top opening up rather than the bottom crumbling beneath our feet. Two totally different circumstances that can evoke the same effect? Alissa, I do have a question about your Tower thread... Was there something different that you were working on internally at the time you had this incredible experience? Did it come on the heels of an epiphany? Or was it a random event that you simply accepted and embraced? Thanks so much for sharing! I thoroughly enjoyed it! Blessings, Karen

Alissa	21 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by EarthAngel2911 Alissa, I do have a question about your Tower thread... Was there something different that you were working on internally at the time you had this incredible experience? Did it come on the heels of an epiphany? Or was it a random event that you simply accepted and embraced? (((((Karen))))) I'm so pleased to hear that whole event has perhaps touched another person. If it has, that continues to bring me new blessings that I cherish. The meditation I did that day was spontaneous. It involves some material that is too personal in nature to expound upon, but there are plenty of ways I can (and HAVE! :D) talked about it too. I had not been doing anything different in my spiritual path. That day was no different in my world either, just another day. I had not been focussing on regular kundalini practice (although I sometimes do, and that often brings breakthroughs of it's own as well). I wasn't doing anything different, really. But, at a point in the day, I had a "glimmer" at something I saw, and I "went in." It was an intuitive hook, and I grabbed the bait. The very first part of the vision, I was in a light filled space and there was a wheel before me. And if I thought about making it spin, I could. So I did. I then stepped on the spinning wheel (actually, I grand jeted, I was dancey) and once I landed, I was shot up HIGH ... (giggles) kinda like the space tubes that folks fly in on Futurama. No real tube was there, but the sensation of being part of a shaft of cosmic light. I felt like I stepped inside a super string, and took the elevator inside to the top floor, without even trying. Suddenly, I was on the top, and I was really *seeing* it all. Other things here are extremely personal. The fabric of unity I saw, the last of the vision I was given, reminds me strongly of the way the link you provided describes the mandala that he saw. Points of light, spread across infinity. Connected. Distant. Different. The same. When the episode ended, only about 5-10 minutes of "real time" passed. I felt like I had been inside the energy for longer though. I was outside time perception when I was in that state. That day holds a special special place in my heart. It's a day I won't forget, I simply couldn't. It changed me, my perception of the world, and of all that is really *possible* in life, not just in our heads, but really THERE waiting for us to find it. It's hard to put words around the experience now. I was still under Her inspiration when I was writing those posts last April, I think. :)

ros	27 Jan 2004
I have in my notes Tower - personal isolation -that the flash of lightning is another symbol of the electrical serpent force, or the kindalini, the Mars force in the body. a flash of illumination which bears a message that wakens us to our true source -true understanding of the conscious and subconscious. -Tower of Babel (Babble means confusion of understanding) -after kundalini or Mars force within the body is driven up the spine, there, in the head, final illumination must take place I have these notes but use the card as an unexpected change coming. Just some more ideas.

firemaiden	27 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by ros I-that the flash of lightning is another symbol of the electrical serpent force, or the kindalini, the Mars force in the body. a flash of illumination which bears a message that wakens us to our true source Yes! the Kundalini! That goes along very well with the point I was making in the first post, that Kris Hadar believes -- the the crown lifts off, but does not necessarily crumble. I didn't know that was considered the Mars force in the body. Cool.

ros	27 Jan 2004
My whole idea of the Tower has changed. What if this card is clearing from the mind of out-dated beliefs, so the mind is free to absorb new ideas and concepts. Awakening as a warning that we must remain flexible if we want to survive. We need to be able to withstand the severest blows that life can deal us. -Our inner struggles to go with the flow. -Remain flexible with our ideas & compromise. I think the Tower only comes down if we allow it. -the lack of, or not wanting any new understanding. Thanks for the new insight of this card!

ros	27 Jan 2004
P.S. cleaning out the cobwebs, housecleaning of the past!

The but, but, but what if the Tower isn't supposed to crumble?! thread was originally posted on 31 May 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.