Do you pay much attention to a card's Suit?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Rusty Neon	20 May 2003
This came up on another tarot list, but I thought I'd post my heresy here too. Yep, I'm probably a tarot heretic :) When I'm using RWS and other Golden Dawn derived decks, I don't pay much attention to suit, especially with the small cards (Two to Ten). I find that the keyword/DM/images of a given minor arcana card (especially a small card) are broad and rich enough to be applied to any aspect or situation regardless of whether that aspect or situation may traditionally be governed by a given suit. However ... in my adventures with the Tarot de Marseille, I do tend to use a suit-oriented approach with regard to that deck.

Thirteen	20 May 2003
Wow. That is heritical. I can't imagine ignoring the suit. Especially when several of the same suit appear in a spread, which can let me know if a person is wallowing in depression (too many cups) or burning themselves up with passion (too many wands)--or lacking something like communication (too few swords) or ignoring something they ought to be paying attention to, like their health (all suits but pentacles). I remember one spread I got with almost all cups--I said to the guy, "Did you use to be an addict?" and sure enough, yes he had. I can't imagine how I would have known that if I'd ignored the suit and just assumed that, say, a three, was a three, was a three. And how to you reconcile something like the Three of Cups with the Three of Swords? They're radically different in interpetation.

Mimers	20 May 2003
Hi Rusty! I definitely lean towards the suits when interpreting the cards. I go with the general meaning of the suit and the number. Like you, Rusty the Marseille study has made this even stronger. Speaking of Marseille..... I miss that little study group. I am sure that everyones has been busy, just as I have, but I was thinking of that lately. I have been using decks without illustrated pips more than illustrated ones lately. I find it frees me up to interpret it as my intuition tells me. I find the decks like RW lock me into an interpretation. Mimers

HudsonGray	20 May 2003
Sometimes the suit is minor compared to the key words for the card. Sometimes the image on the card is the entire message. Yes, I ignore suits at times. I ignore the 'elements' also, and any Quabballah influences since I don't have any training in Jewish tradition (probably why my Haindl doesn't want to work too well with me). It's not enough to brand you a heretic--LOL--don't worry. Read them the way they speak strongest to you. Just use what's connecting to get your reading.

Sobeknofret	20 May 2003
Don't know that I could ignore the suits-- I get too much information from them. A few days ago I was reading for a man that I know and out of eight cards in the spread, seven were swords. It puzzled me because I KNEW that he was interested in a relationship spread, but swords didn't fit that too well. Until I realized that he has a tendency to over-intellectualize and over-analyze his romantic relationships to death, which was what all the swords were telling me (and him). Sure enough, the relationship that he was asking about went down in conflict and flames, which is exactly what all the swords were telling him could happen. I'm not too sure that I could have gotten that kind of information without considering the card suits in my consideration of the whole spread. How do you make it work without considering the suits, out of curiosity? And which deck do you use?

Rusty Neon	21 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Sobeknofret I'm not too sure that I could have gotten that kind of information without considering the card suits in my consideration of the whole spread. How do you make it work without considering the suits, out of curiosity? And which deck do you use? If a large number of cards of one given suit turn up in a spread, I couldn't help but take the presence of that suit into consideration in looking for a general trend to the reading. However, when using RWS and other GD based decks, I would, when interpreting cards, on an individual card-by-card basis, not give any special regard to suit. This is subject to the proviso of elemental dignities. If I ever got into EDs, I would, however, consider suit in assigning elements for the purposes of using EDs, but not as suit per se. Generally, I use the Rider deck or the Thoth deck. I consider keywords, Golden Dawn divinatory meanings, and Waite's _Pictorial Key to the Tarot_ DMs, as well as card imagery/symbolism. Many of Mr. Waite's DMs and Golden Dawn DMs derive from Etteilla and from certain Continental European cartomancy schools. Etteilla DMs and cartomancy DMs for a given card don't necessarily owe too much to suit. (However, as noted in my original post, I do take suit into account when using the Tarot de Marseille.) For instance, the RWS 4 of Wands (Completion) could represent the culmination of an important stage in any relevant aspect, e.g., in work (traditionally governed by pentacles) or in a relationship (traditionally governed by cups). The 7 of Cups could represent confusion or being overwhelmed in any relevant aspect. The 7 of Pentacles can represent the need for patience or represent feelings of failure in any relevant aspect. The 8 of Pentacles could represent the need for attention to detail in any relevant aspect.

Inana	21 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon For instance, the RWS 4 of Wands (Completion) could represent the culmination of an important stage in any relevant aspect, e.g., in work (traditionally governed by pentacles) or in a relationship (traditionally governed by cups). The 7 of Cups could represent confusion or being overwhelmed in any relevant aspect. The 7 of Pentacles can represent the need for patience or represent feelings of failure in any relevant aspect. The 8 of Pentacles could represent the need for attention to detail in any relevant aspect. But rusty, you ARE using the suits too. Maybe in a lower level that the significance you give to the number or the picture, but actually the qualities you are talking about are part of the suit. I mean: patience, details are in the nature of earth. Confusion is most of the time related to water and air, cause is the crash within mind and heart what creates confusion. Culmination, is like creation, needs lots of energy (and energy is fire)... Well, dont know if im explaining it well. What i say is, each suit implies certain qualities, not just areas of life. At least this is how i see it. I think you are using this aspect of the suits. One cant relate honor to cups, for example, because honor has nothing to do with emotions, its a mental thing, a way to see life. But you can get your emotions hurted because of a lack of honor. And one cant relate perseverance to wands, its more a quality for pentacles, wich doesnt mean you cant have constancy in aspects of life related to the wands, like spirituality or imagination. Makes this sense or im just confusing?

HudsonGray	21 May 2003
[quote] "One cant relate honor to cups, for example, because honor has nothing to do with emotions, its a mental thing, a way to see life. But you can get your emotions hurted because of a lack of honor. And one cant relate perseverance to wands, its more a quality for pentacles, wich doesnt mean you cant have constancy in aspects of life related to the wands, like spirituality or imagination." I don't see honor and emotions as mutually exclusive, for some reason. Honor and pride go together, as do honor and love. There's a bleed over factor in nearly everything in the deck, so you usually aren't locking out one thing because a particular suit showed up. The suits themselves, yes I do use them too, especially if most of the reading is one suit or all majors -- but there are times that the suit is way in the background (way down on the list) because the other message coming through relates to an image or a word that the card focuses on for me. And if you use intuitive aspects in your readings, that opens a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Open minds allow more connections--locking down the suit factors as a #1 importance makes for a difficult reading in many situations. Keep in mind that the tarot functions on many, many, many levels so whatever is coming to the forefront in whatever way it comes is going to indicate the best way to read that particular card in that particular position in the spread. Certainly don't ignore suits, but be open to other connections.

Macavity	21 May 2003
I think that what Inana (and others?) say about it being difficult (impossible) to avoid using the suits must be true with esp. the RWS? The card images seem to be pretty much BASED on the "intersection" of the card number and Suit. The RWS has much in common with the Thoth in this respect - and it's images aren't THAT bad a fit to the Thoth keywords? But I even see the transition from non-illustrated to illustrated minors as more of a continuum these days, with more similarities than differences? At least that's what I've been hoping - otherwise my whole... (ahem) unified "theory" comes tumbling down! :laugh: Macavity

Thirteen	21 May 2003
[quote]Originally posted by HudsonGray Quote: I don't think Inana was being "closed minded," and if I can stand up for her here, I suspect that she knows full well that tarot fuctions on "many, many" levels, as we all do--and hardly need reminding! Her primary point, and I agree with it, was that Rusty seemed to BE using suits even though Rusty originally said the opposite. And while I'm sure we're all in agreement with you that suits can fade into the background if other things seem a bit more important, we all DO categorize our suits--we're human, we cateogrize and see patterns and that's why we use a deck of cards with suits in the first place. If we didn't think that way, we wouldn't need cups, wands, swords and pentacles to clue us into the querent's problems and such. We'd have 10 numbered cards with no pictures at all and be able to say, when a 4 popped up, "You're having trouble with your marriage." Not to say that those categories don't shift and change--but we likely would agree that cups aren't swords--even if we don't agree on the particulars. My point is this: argue those particulars all you like, which card signifies "honor" and such--you might well convince us you're right--but watch the judgement calls. You likely wouldn't say that pentacles stood for Honor, would you? And does that make you closed minded?

DarkElectric	21 May 2003
Hmmm... I tend to get an awful lot of information from the suits. I'm in agreement with Thirteen as to being able to identify the nature of a reading by using that info gleaned from the suits. It works for me.

Alex	21 May 2003
most of us has a real good understanding of how these "elements" interact with the numbers to give a meaning. Our cultural background does not facilitate the understanding of it from inside, even though I think most of us have an intellecutual grasp of it. Several images in the Waite-Smith system portray FEELINGS we display in certain circumstances. For example, the 5 of Pentacles is about feeling humiliated and excluded; the 4 of Pentacles reflects greed; the three of swords suggests emotional pain; the the two of swords suggests denial, which is a psychological mechanism to avoid emotional pain; the 6 of wands suggests pride. So, you don't really need to think in terms of "elements" and most people actually don't, when they give the card interpretations, even though they might think they do. Alex.

Inana	23 May 2003
Hudson: I dont say the suit is the main factor on a reading. It is an important aspect to me, since its not only an area of life but also a set of qualities and behaviours that can be applied to any matter. But this doesnt mean i dont look other aspects on the cards. Thirteen has expressed it fine and simple: we all categorize our suits. The general meanings are the same to all us, i thought. But since our perception of reality is different, we differ in the more detailed feelings, ideals or human qualities we attribute to them, although they are in connexion. So its natural i guess that i dont relate honor like a cups aspect but you do it. Have to agree with Alex, in decks like the RW, the scenes pictured are portraying feelings directly. This is why it seems one is not using the suits, but still...

HudsonGray	23 May 2003
Yep, it's usually 'whatever works.' (I wasn't being harsh or mean, maybe my working was done wrong).

Minderwiz	23 May 2003
I take notice of the suit as well and probably give it too much importance. I use elements very strongly in my Astrological work and therefore subconsciously tend to give suits the same importance. I don't mean that I take the suits as direct equivalent of elements and nothing else but that I see them as four dimensions of the world closely analagous to the elements. BUT There is clearly an argument for letting intuition reign over formality here, so I don't think Rusty is a heretic either. I'm trying to give more weight to intuition in my readings - providing I can shove a dirty great big gas ball called Saturn to one side of my Ascendant for a bit. That being said I'm too Saturunian to throw form completely out of the Tower window :)

NeXoRiouS	24 May 2003
I guess when you look at a card, the meaning of it simply pops up and you slowly transform it into the best form to interpret which suits best into the question. When you think that the meaning of a card is as though like you believed it to be, you are actually using the qualities of it's suit.

Inana	29 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by HudsonGray (I wasn't being harsh or mean, maybe my working was done wrong). Its ok, there's no problem. Sorry for not saying nothing before, i wasnt able to enter the forum. Quote: Originally posted by Nexorius When you think that the meaning of a card is as though like you believed it to be, you are actually using the qualities of it's suit. This is what i think too.

The Do you pay much attention to a card's Suit? thread was originally posted on 20 May 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.