Is the Queen of Cups a Watermelon?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Belladonna	11 May 2003
By that I mean: Is she earth acting as water? Are water and earth attributed to the pages and queens respectively as the feminine cards and air and fire to the knights and kings? Or is it: pages, east, air knights, south, fire queens, west, water kings, north, earth?

Maan	11 May 2003
LOL :D I think thats for everybody different....i see the queens as water so the queen of cups is water from water. Super empathic and feeling.

Rusty Neon	11 May 2003
The Golden Dawn system is not the only system for elemental assignments but it is one of the more common systems in use by tarotists in Anglo-American tarot. In general terms: Suits Wands = Fire Cups = Water Swords = Air Coins = Earth Court cards RWS King (Thoth Knight) = Fire** Queen = Water RWS Knight (Thoth Prince) = Air** RWS Page (Thoth Princess) = Earth (** There is debate about this. Shown above is Wang's version from his book _The Qabalistic Tarot_. Other tarotists would equate RWS King to Thoth Prince (both not on horses) and equate RWS Knight to Thoth Knight (both being on horses), so that RWS King and RWS Knight would correspond to air and fire, respectively. However, this interesting debate might be outside the scope of this thread. Both sides of the debate have merits.) Under the GD system, the Queen of Cups would therefore be Water (Queen) of Water (Cups).

skytwig	11 May 2003
Belladonna, I looooove that question! :laugh: Yes, I would think she is...... watemelon, like a globe of potential birth, a womb?, filled with seeds and nourishing water..... like a liquid geode!! So, would the King of Cups be a vine or a sea?

Belladonna	11 May 2003
well, if queen of cups is earth acting as water (seemingly open to much debate) and the king of cups is fire acting as water... Seems like hot springs to me!

skytwig	11 May 2003
I think we have a Magickl Garden going here!! :laugh:

Belladonna	12 May 2003
Rusty Neon, thank you for that information. I'm not quite sure I understand this yet, though. Please bear with me. Perhaps it's just because I've had it wrong for so long. Are you saying that Pages are never associated with air? Or at least that the Golden Dawn and Thoth systems do not? Do you understand why I might think they would be? As the message bearers for their suits I would think that would correspond to beginnings, to inspiration and focus, to east? Do you have any thoughts about how they correspond to earth? I can understand Knights being associated with fire, and even the Queens being associated with water (although they do seem more earthy to me) but the Kings with Air? Why? To me, it makes more sense to have the Kings be earth if the Queens are going to be water. Solidity, manifestation of the inspiration, will and courage/devotion. What are your thoughts about how they correspond with air? I try to tackle this from time to time, but I definately have a hard time with this. Maybe because I have such strong associations with the elements as a Wiccan. Thank you for helping me through this. Love and light, Belladonna

Rusty Neon	13 May 2003
Hi Belladonna ... The correspondences I've given in my earlier post are those of the Golden Dawn legacy. The GD correspondences are useful to know as they are often used by tarotists or function as a starting/comparison point for other viewpoints. The RWS images and the GD tarot tradition are part of what is in practice a lingua franca among Anglo-American tarotists, but you are free to speak your own language too. If you wish to use other correspondences, feel free. Tarot is very free-form.

HOLMES	13 May 2003
*clears throat* .. takes a big breath,, SHE's A TOMATO the queen of cups is water upon water, recieving inwards what is being recieved outwards. earth page, water queen fire knight king air (gd assocations ) alternative situation from tarot and tree of life every day wisdom in the minor arcana. page is air, water is queen fire is knight and earth is king. it is by kabbalah associations this is so , the king manifests in the air realm according to the golden dawn , as it is the highest on the tree of life. personally for myself, if i am working to get more spiritual to know myself to get closer to the source then the king becomes the air, and the page earth. but if i am working to manifest something in the actual world then the king becomes the earth. if i mixed them up according to the quesiton. (but i do like the tarot and tree of life every day wisdom in minor arcana ) there is a tarot court card book coming out in july and one again by mary k greer in december. there should be a lot of detailed answers in there as they focus sololey on the court cards. (but in the mean time i recomend the tarot and tree of life every day wisdom in the minor arcana )

Belladonna	13 May 2003
Buy WHY? Somebody please write something about why the King is Air? Help me understand this! A piece of descriptive writing, an opinion, a poem, anything. I just do not see the King as air, but I am so open to trying. Thank you again, Rusty Neon and Holmes, for your patience with me. I am very interested in what your opinion is on this!

jema	13 May 2003
no, the king is not air. not in any system i ever worked with anyway. rusty neon posted an excellent list in an earlier post. it is the same list i use and the one that Crowley included in his Book of Thoth. "RWS King (Thoth Knight) = Fire Queen = Water RWS Knight (Thoth Prince) = Air RWS Page (Thoth Princess) = Earth" for me it is just obvious that the Thoth knight is the same as the Rider-waite king and he is fire. i can't really see how the prince could be translated into the king. (so i didn't include those little stars in this quote of rusty neons post) if you see beyond the titles and status of the courts and just look at them and get a "feel" for them you can work out your own system. or not. not everyone is using the elemental descriptions for the courts like that. there is really no need to if they just feel confusing. my advice is to either pick one system, make your own system or simply not use them at all.

HOLMES	13 May 2003
the golden dawn associations makes the king air by kabbalah. (i don't know about waite system i just assumed (ehhe assumed) that it would logically be the same, seeing it is waite version of the golden dawn tarot )

azuremariposa	13 May 2003
well, i would suppose it all depends on the feel of it and how you wish to see it...i see her as all water, nice and squishy! ;) as far as the reasoning behind the elemental thingies (sorry, my brain is a little mushy), if you put it in the right order, it follows how the zodiac elements go...for instance: Page = Earth Knight = Air Queen = Water King = Fire Pentacles = Earth Swords = Air Cups = Water Wands = Fire zodiac... Capricorn = Earth Aquarius = Air Pisces = Water Aries = Fire etc., etc., you get the idea...so, that might change the order you keep your deck in ;) or not...but i think that might have something to do with it...now, if you will forgive me, i'm off to do some work that doesn't necessarily require copious amts of brain cells...:D many blessings ~azure p.s. w/this reasoning, King of Cups is Fire of Water...steamy! ;) King of Swords is Fire of Air...who's full of it? (hot air, that is?) haha...or conversely Knight of Wands is Air of Fire...who doesn't know a Knight of Wands who *isn't* puffed up a bit?? ;) haha...ok, i'm out...

HOLMES	13 May 2003
i said hmm soemthing not right so i went back and check the chicken qabbalah, and the qabalitic tarot and the tarot and tree of life , everday wisdom in minor arcana. the king is air, the queen is water, knight is fire and page is earth.. i cant' believe i made such a horrendous mistake. i know where it happend too. in the tarot and tree of life book they make the king earth. so i just assumed (and i proved that saying about assumed ) that fire is against water so reversing the direction would make the king air,. (starts banging head against wall ) sorry guys i made one of those jumps that can create a mistake in math.. so the queen is water in water though lol but the king is fire in qabalah.

firemaiden	14 May 2003
The Queen is indeed Water of Water, but that doesn't stop her from being a watermelon. In fact, I adore the image. It goes along with idea of her being a push over. :-) All bright red, sweet and syrupy, yum .

magpie9	14 May 2003
Ok Belladonna, here we go--- The King is air because he thinks. He is intellect, judgement (or lack of it) communication, decision-making, Philosophy, concious-ness, all that. All those Air things. The queen of cups can afford to be a watermelon, a reflecting pool, fertility of nuture or vica-versa,feelings and emotions, but the King's gotta be able to think himself out of a wet paper bag. The Knights are fire, all action and eagerness and running about and questing and fighting and courting and general carry-on. The Pages are Earth, because they're young and still growing and beginnings and usually seen as children. Children are frequently closer to the earth, and more aware of it than adults. Children are also frequently covered in dirt, which is a form of earth. :D :D :D

The Is the Queen of Cups a Watermelon? thread was originally posted on 11 May 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.