Two or three lovers

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 May 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Inana	07 May 2003
Hi there! Im very intrigued by the 6th Major and confused about the changes on it. Is not the same to have two persons plus angelus that to have three people and old cupido. And its not the same to call it lovers that to call it love. It makes big diferences, so... can we talk about it? - What is the oldest image and name for it? Guess its lovers? - Someone knows why and when it changed? - Do you change meaning in readings depending on how many juliets and romeos are there pictured? - Wich of both you feel most appealing or correct? - Should I stop making questions? Seriously, im interested in anything that can help with understanding this two different ways to picture and name it.

C.N.	07 May 2003
Check out this site: http://www.tarothermit.com/love.htm In summary: It was 2 people and was called Love in the oldest desks. The third person was added and the name changed to The Lovers in the Marseilles decks. Waite and Crowley changed the card back to its roots again.

Kiama	07 May 2003
Adding to what CN said: I thin kthe decks which added the third person originally did so because the person was officiating some sort of marriage between the two other people in the card, and Cupid was just there overseeing it... Well, that's what it looks like to me! I've never liked the 'Choice' associations of this card, which I feel may have been added when Astrology was added to teh Tarot: Lovers was given Gemini. To me, it will always be true love, since there aren't many other cards in the deck to show that, whilst there are many many other cards in the deck to show choice. Kiama

LittleWing	07 May 2003
to me - the lover's card means true love - love in its purest sense. it shows 2 people - but i also think it can mean love for something eg - the ocean - when i first swam in the sea, i knew it was connected with my soul, and it was a turning point for me - to wish to move to the coast, become involved in surfing and helping clean up beaches. when something touches you - and you feel love so deeply - you know it is meant to be- and you cannot take any other path. i see the cupid/symbol above them to be some kind of devine intervention - bringing them together - because they are meant to be.

Inana	07 May 2003
Nice! CN, thanks for that link. Its a very good one. Ignorant me that i was believing the Marseilles was the oldest form of tarot. Ok, i know now that its one of them, but not "the". Kiama, yes i also think there are more cards that show choices, so has more sense to me too when it talks about love. About the gemini aspect... well gemini is two, not three, so cant understand why they pictured three persons there. I mean, gemini is supposed to be two equals, or two different sides of the same thing. Need to think more about this. Quote: Originally posted by LittleWing when something touches you - and you feel love so deeply - you know it is meant to be- and you cannot take any other path. This sentence makes some mix of the two meanings someway... Makes think: If you cant take any other path because of love, it implies a little of a choice. But in this case, its something like a choice that you cant make. Has this sense?

WolfSpirit	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I've never liked the 'Choice' associations of this card, which I feel may have been added when Astrology was added to teh Tarot: Lovers was given Gemini. To me, it will always be true love, since there aren't many other cards in the deck to show that, whilst there are many many other cards in the deck to show choice. Kiama I see it like this: if the Lovers card indicates a choice, it advises you to follow your heart, rather than make a choice based on logic or practical circumstances. So I combine the Lovers-meaning with the Choice-meaning.

Rusty Neon	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by C.N. Check out this site: http://www.tarothermit.com/love.htm In summary: It was 2 people and was called Love in the oldest desks. The third person was added and the name changed to The Lovers in the Marseilles decks. Waite and Crowley changed the card back to its roots again. Since the linked article of Tom Tadford Little (tarothermit) is intended to be a scholarly article, I thought it would be worthwhile to note that his English translation of the French title of the Tarot de Marseille "Lamoureux" (i.e., "L'Amoureux") card may be wrong: "L'Amoureux" means "The Lover" (in singular) in modern day French -- the plural is "Les Amoureux". However, I am willing to stand corrected .... as this raises the question of what the French grammar in the time of the TdM's origins. At that time in the French language, could "Lamoureux" have meant "The Lovers" (in plural)? Modern French language tarot texts treat the title of the card as L'Amoureux -- "The Lover" - in singular. I'm also wondering about the original verbal Italian name for the Love/Lover/Lovers card. Does it in fact translate as "Love" ... or does it really translate as "The Lover"? (There is no title on the Visconti card.)

LittleWing	07 May 2003
i agree with wolfspirit - the choice element is only - to follow your heart (or not) there are other cards for real choices - this is better to me as pure love

galadrial	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Inana About the gemini aspect... well gemini is two, not three, so cant understand why they pictured three persons there. I mean, gemini is supposed to be two equals, or two different sides of the same thing. I see the love aspect of this card as being about passion- having a passion for something or someone. We can be attracted to nice people, places (like the beach!), activities etc. , but sadly the equal and opposite side is that we can be passionate about things which are not good for our souls. Our very passion can blind us to the harm we do to ourselves in pursuing and joining with (marrying, literally or figuratively) that which is unhealthy for us. I think the third figure helps us to choose wisely; when we are fixated on the spiritual I think we are more aware of/immune to loving people/things which will block our spiritual progress.

Thirteen	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I've never liked the 'Choice' associations of this card I think you're misunderstanding the concept of "choice" in this card--and that's very understandable given the way books and other folk often discuss it--myself, in the past, included. It took a while for me to understand that, as pointed out by Wolfspirit, this is a heart's choice. It's that romantic movie ending where the Heroine (or Hero) says, "I choose you!" to the guy (or girl) who thought they'd never be noticed, for the person to go after what their heart wants, not what their head might be saying (like, "The guys will laugh at me if I go with her," or "He's not rich enough," or "My family's would never approve and people would stare...."). I think that's why so many cards have that second girl. She makes you want to yell at the guy in the middle, eyeing only the prettier one, "Don't be stupid! She's not your true love!"--just as you do in Romantic comedies. Put it another way: this card isn't, and I don't think should be seen, about making the usual choice of so many other cards, which is typically: "This or That! Weigh the options and choose! Take your time, be wise!" This card is a simple prediction. "You've found your other half, your one true love, your heart's choice." Chosing that one true love may cause trouble and hurt--like the husband who divorces his loyal wife and deserts his kids to marry the woman of his dreams. But unlike other choice cards, The Lovers doesn't point out pros and cons, doesn't offer advice. It simply tells you: "It's Love. Go for it...or remain incomplete." INANA: This is why the card was given Gemini. Gemini isn't, per se, two sides of the same thing (like opposing arguments), it's two halves of a WHOLE. Like twins--one egg that split in two. And when you get the "Lovers" card, you realize that you've never really been whole. You find that other half, and with it, you become a unit that's greater than either of you alone. And that's why the otherwise good husband is willing to destroy and hurt his long-time family, or a guy/girl might be willing to be ostrisized, hated or laughed at: they can't imagine living without that other half of themselves. A very powerful card no matter what it's called--but I, myself, think LOVE far more appropriate.

allibee	07 May 2003
Caveat Notice : all depends on the question, the surrounding card and the questioner HOWEVER...... Suppose on one hand you have the good looking guy with the money and the flash car and a whirlwind lifestyle, and on the other hand you have the local postman, not very good looking, not much money and the nearest he gets to a flash car is the lights from a police car that pull him over regularly to see if his ancient Ford is still roadworthy ...... but there is.... something about this guy that you just 'know', he's the right guy for you. In your heart you have examined your motives and decided what you really value and want from a relationship, and so the steady postman fits your bill. Suppose......your boss asks you to fiddle the books for him and tells you if you don't, you're fired! You really need your job, but you don't need this. In your heart you examine your motives and decide what you really value and want from a working relationship, and the now the job queue fits your bill. It won't pay the bills, but your heart is happy and because your conscience is clear and united because you've done the right thing for YOU. To me it's not so much a choice, it's about keeping your mind and your conscience unified. The Pope often asks us to do the 'right thing' for the sake of others, whereas I feel the Lovers asks us to 'do the right thing' for ourselves. Go on .... love yourself :O) Allison

Thirteen	07 May 2003
But that's the thing--it's not love of SELF so much as love for OTHER SELF--for your twin. See, the LOVERS card isn't about the Boss offering you an ethical choice between job or morals (which seems hard but, notice how quickly you said morals would win, as its right for you). It's about being deeply, passionately, truely in love with your boss--knowing he's your one true love...and that he'll be jailed if you don't fix the books. Do you fix the books so he and you can be together, or do you call the police, let him be lost to you forever, but know you "did the right thing"? See. NOT so easy a choice, is it? I remember being told a tale about one of my distant relatives--some 60 years back, he fell in love with a girl. She was perfect for him. But she was the wrong religion. His family pressured him NOT to marry her. In the end, he didn't. And remained unmarried for the rest of his life. Perhaps he was just weak, unable to defy his family. Or perhaps he thought it wise, in those times where his marrying her wouldn't be culturally accepted, and would cause them both to be ostrisized. Or perhaps he believed it better to sacrifice for the good of the family--maybe even the good of the girl--rather than selfishly give into his own wants. But he was never whole. He avoided a lot of trouble and hardship, maybe even did the right thing; but he remained, forever, incomplete. The LOVERS card, I believe, can signal the hardest delemma of any choice card: go for what you WANT and NEED to be complete--or surrender to wisdom, morality, social/cultural pressures, and so many other, often virtuous impulses--or, contrary wise, to base lusts (like going for the rich guy instead of the postman). I'm not saying this card always has to signal such choices, but I think it can. And they're going to be ten times harder than the usual choice of picking what's RIGHT over what's easy. Because in the case of the LOVERS, picking what makes you "complete" may be the most wrong thing you can do, not only in a moral/cultural context, but for yourself in that it could get you jailed, killed, ostrisized, etc. The Lover's card, I think, isn't asking you to pick the right thing for yourself OR for others, nothing so ethical or mental. It's asking, to the contrary: "Who would you help bury a body?" Wrong for you, wrong for society. But it's the thing you would do, for someone you loved, someone who was your other half.

allibee	07 May 2003
It's so interesting to read these posts, sometimes we all have such differing views on these cards we call tarot:O) Thirteen, perhaps my mind was working slower than my typing, but I don't think I necessarily meant morals - cultural or otherwise. (Her values could just as easily be: She loves guys in 'postie' uniforms, and I bet he's got a big parcel! But that is her values.) I meant unifying heart and mind. I often see people say, oh lovers is about a choice between sacred and profane love, or resisting temptation, etc, etc, etc, but I see it more as "is this situation really what you want?" - whatever the situation it may be. In this day and age more and more people don't have significant others by choice, so maybe social circumstances have evolved where the Gemini refers to the heart and the mind. Inner duality. Many decks also have an angel behind the 'couple', though not necessarily a cupid. I feel that refers to the communication in all three directions where completeness can only start when there is peace and harmony within yourself. Is it true that you can only show love to another when you learn to love yourself?...probably. A.

Kiama	07 May 2003
Thirteen and Allibee: Thanks for your comments on this card... I think I understand that side of it alot more now. I had never thought of it that way before! (Isn't it amazing all the things which just run right by yu without you noticing at all?!) Though it does seem to be a very... Dangerous card... "Do what makes you complete, even if that action is not morally right in itself". Surely the Gemini part of this card, the rational, airy thought part of the card, says to keep your head about you? I'm not sure I'd actually WANT to say "Do what makes you complete even if that action is morally wrong and could get you jailed/killed" in a reading to somebody, simply because the guy I was reading for could then use that as an excuse to 'make himself complete' by killing his wife and running away to some foreign country with his lover... I'm not being nasty about this interpretation of the card, just pointing out that it could have some rather icky consequences attached to it's teachings. Does anybody have any comments on this? I'm a little unsure here... Kiama

Alex	07 May 2003
The lovers card is a reminder that we are at the mercy of our biochemistry. THREE main neuro-transmitters, called 'monoamines', play an important role in the experience of "falling in love", : 1. Dopamine- The same hormone that is activated by cocaine, nicotine and anfetamines. 2. Norepinephrine (adrenalin). Starts us sweating and gets the heart racing 3. Serotonin - the one that makes people "temporarily insane" and also the neurotransmitter that is enhanced by common antidepressants. Now, the act of having regular sex with someone enhances the concentration of the following hormones: Oxytocin - Responsibe for the strong bond between mother and child, it is also released by both sexes during orgasm. The theory goes that the more sex a couple has, the deeper their bond becomes Vasopressin - Another important chemical in the long-term commitment stage. It is an important controller of the kidney. So, if you find yourself strongly attached with someone you have sex with, even if that person isn't quite "your type", and about the time you're on the verge of commiting to that person, remember: 1. Oxytocin wears off within five years. Your hormonal attachement won't go beyond that. Therefore, take a deep breath, and make a choise that takes into consideration OTHER factors as well. "Do I get along with this person?" "Can we be good friends?" "Is this other human being dependable?". What FEELS right is sometimes a trick nature is playing on you. After you find yourself pregnant, the questions above lose importance, your genetic material is on the way in the oven, and Nature has Won. It is all too easy to make WRONG CHOICES based on hormones: ALL that you need is a start. The old idea that people should not have sex before marriage was in part because of pregnancy, and IN PART TO PROTECT PEOPLE FROM STUPID CHOICES. Has anyone, after a few years of marriage, find themselves asking the question out loud "God how did I come to the idea of marrying this person???????????????" I have. It's quite interesting of an experience. Alex.

Thirteen	07 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I'm not sure I'd actually WANT to say "Do what makes you complete even if that action is morally wrong and could get you jailed/killed" in a reading to somebody, simply because the guy I was reading for could then use that as an excuse to 'make himself complete' by killing his wife and running away to some foreign country with his lover I don't think the appearence of the card necessitates that you say that to your querent--only that you say, "You've found something or someone recently, and it has a powerful draw for you. Your instincts about it are right, it will complete you, but there's a decison to be made." It's not your job, as reader, to advise the querent to "go for it" unless other cards support that. The card simply points out what it. The querent is asking themselves, "is this girl the one?" and your answer is, "yep." Likely in the situation you describe, you'd end up coming across the 8/Swords later in the reading and wisely warn your querent: "If you do what you're planning to do, you're going to end up jailed and no one's going to be happy. Think of some other way to be with her." As for Gemini and the mind--to quote from The Little Giant Encycolpedia of the Zodiac: "Inside anyone who has strong Gemini influences is a person who secretly longs to find his or her true soul make, the mysterious twin who will make the Gemini feel complete." Gemini is an air sign and therefore of the mind, yes, but a mind constantly trying to communicate, constantly adjusting to find harmony. As the book further points out, "love" to a Gemini is "a romantic ideal"--and though they may flirt and have affairs, may repress strong emotons or have a hard time expressing their feelings, they feel "very deeply," are faithful to their partners and always looking for "perfect romantic love." Odd for an air sign, but certainly apt for the Lovers. That's why Waite put in the Angel, symbol of that perfect communication Geminis strive to achieve, that spiritual connection leading to perfect understanding and harmony at long last

WolfSpirit	08 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Though it does seem to be a very... Dangerous card... "Do what makes you complete, even if that action is not morally right in itself". I think all cards have their good and bad side, and the bad side will often be when you overdo it, there is no moderation. I see following your heart as something very positive, however, it is also a selfish act, especially when other people are dependent on you. The example Kiama gave is an extreme case...I think many people would face a moral dilemma just having to decide to leave their children because they fell in love with someone else. But in that case I would say: follow your heart although it is painful (but don't kill them ;) ) It is no coincidence the Devil has 15 which breaks down 5+1 into the Lovers 6. What Alex said seems to me somewhere between the lovers and the devil, becoming a slave to your feelings of lust. Despite its possibly dangerous side, i still see it as a very positive card.

Inana	08 May 2003
Wow, im learning lots of new ways to look at the card with this thread. Interesting views. So... maybe no matter if there are two or three people in the card. When finding love or something we love, there's always a bit of choice to be made if we are going for it, in the sense of daring to follow our feelings. Alex, good lesson of biology. :D

Alex	08 May 2003
and I teach 18 year old kids... They sure love my "falling in love" lecture. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Inana Alex, good lesson of biology. :D

Kiama	09 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen As for Gemini and the mind--to quote from The Little Giant Encycolpedia of the Zodiac: "Inside anyone who has strong Gemini influences is a person who secretly longs to find his or her true soul make, the mysterious twin who will make the Gemini feel complete." Gemini is an air sign and therefore of the mind, yes, but a mind constantly trying to communicate, constantly adjusting to find harmony. As the book further points out, "love" to a Gemini is "a romantic ideal"--and though they may flirt and have affairs, may repress strong emotons or have a hard time expressing their feelings, they feel "very deeply," are faithful to their partners and always looking for "perfect romantic love." This certainly reminds me of a link between the Lovers card and the Hebrew letter Zain, which means Sword... Since for me, the Sword is the representation of the element of Air, and of communication... And I suppose a sword can also be about making decisions... (Double-edged sword representing the two possibilities...) This thread is really helpful! Kiama

C.N.	09 May 2003
The tries to connect Lovers and Gemini together is one of the reasons I have decided that there was no connection between the major arcana inTarot and Astrology from the start. This is in the GD version, not that the European is better. (Pisces - Sun?) I have no problem the practice of assigning sign to court cards however.

Thirteen	10 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex The lovers card is a reminder that we are at the mercy of our biochemistry. I wanted to address this excellent point, as I think it says WHY a card about LOVE is Gemini, a sign of communcation and ideas. Yes, I do think the Lover's card warns us to be mindful of our biochemisty. That's EXACTLY it. If this card were a FIRE sign it would be part one of "falling in Love": Quote: 1. Dopamine- The same hormone that is activated by cocaine, nicotine and anfetamines. All the excitement, the energy, the fun of finding someone new, interesting, sexy. If it was WATER sign, it would be: Quote: 3. Serotonin - the one that makes people "temporarily insane" and also the neurotransmitter that is enhanced by common antidepressants. As water signs are all temporarily insane ;) drifting in dreams and fantasies. And that's what happens in part 3--the real world doesn't exist, only the floaty feelings. And, finally if this card were an EARTH sign: Quote: Oxytocin - Responsibe for the strong bond between mother and child, it is also released by both sexes during orgasm. Physical pleasure, the connection of bodies. But as Alex warns, this bond wears off in five years. So, Earth sign doesn't work. And we know that the initial excitement will wear off, so Fire doesn't work. And we know that eventually, you wake up from those floaty dreams and illusions, so Water sign doesn't work. REAL LOVE, says the Lovers card, the card with and AIR sign symbolizing it, is outside the body--a meeting of minds and spirit. This is why the man choosing between two women works (as well as the angel/cupid between man and woman): He's eyeing the sexy girl, the one who gets all the hormones going. But it's the other woman, the one who he thinks is "just a friend," who he "loves talking with" who's mind is closest to his, who is the REAL love of his life. The one who will really complete him. In the end, the Lovers card tries to point this out. In the negative, it is a warning against making stupid mistakes out of lust and hormones or, contrary wise, social/cultural pressures. But in the positive, it's about admitting what you've known all along: it's your BEST FRIEND, who your true love. Someone you can grow old with, someone who will be there when things are boring, rather than exciting, real rather than dreamy, and when sex is no longer possible. I know a man who was in a terrible accident some years back. He was paralyzed from the neck down and continues to need wheelchairs and assistance for everything. But it was AFTER the accident that he met and married a woman who he adores, who is his better half--and he hers. That's true Love. And that's what this card, I think, is all about. Finding someone who is your spirital and mental LOVE. Someone who you want to be, forever, with because you love THEIR mind, who they are.

Alex	10 May 2003
and others who wish to answer. The tradition, by the time the tarot deck was put together (let's assume it was the Renascesse), was that of "arranged marriages". At least for wealthy families. The common association between VI-The Lovers and illicit relationships, mostly when it is reversed or ill-diginified, is straightforward here: an individual engaged in a relationship that has not been approved by the family. Let's remember the original function of marriage: parnership for life while raising a family under adverse, difficult conditions. I wonder what VI-The Lovers was intended to signify, at the time it was created, once people weren't supposed to go out in the world and find someone at random and one day conclude they have found their soul mate. Much less marry for "love". I see the Five of Pentacles as an aspect of VI-Lovers, dealing with the financial side of marital choices. Some decks (e.g. Stella) portray a situation where a wedding is implied, and some decks portray what seems to me to be the material result of poor choices in partnership. Alex.

Thirteen	10 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex and others who wish to answer. I wonder what VI-The Lovers was intended to signify, at the time it was created, once people weren't supposed to go out in the world and find someone at random and one day conclude they have found their soul mate. Much less marry for "love". You forget that tarot cards--all such playing cards--were created by courtiers, not commoners. Courtiers had plenty of time on their hands. Not only to play card, but to travel the world, find someone at random, and conclude this was their soul mate. They might not have been allowed to marry that person, but they certainly believed in the concept of finding true love. Such a concept first appears, in fact, at around the same time as the tarot cards. It was called ROMANTIC LOVE, and it was all the rage at the French Court. Or haven't you read those stories about King Arthur and Camelot? Very, very popular in the early French Court, those tales of exotic Britain where married women have affairs with courtly knights--men who weren't brutal, but civilized and devoted to their ladies. Who lived and died for them (and vice versa). Guienevere marries King Arthur, but it's Lancelot she loves--and carries on with for years. And this wasn't far from the reality of court life. THAT is what people did when they couldn't marry for love. They carried on with the one they loved (as compared to the on they were forced to marry) behind closed doors--or out in the open if they were men. It's often the LOVERS that we know about instead of the spouse. Do you know who King Louis XV was married to (forced to marry)? No? But you've heard of Madame Pompadour, his beloved mistress, yes? Such an arrangements were quite acceptable, even de rigur, enough so that Lady Melbourne, mother to future Prime Minister of England William Lamb, had five children (William included), each by a different man. There was, however, a right way and a wrong way to do it. For example, Lady Melbourne made sure her firstborn son was by her husband, and she made sure all affairs were carried out descreetly and in good taste--that she never embarrassed her husband in public. Of course, every once in a while, the poor aristos got lucky. George III was devoted to his wife Charlotte and she to him. They never slept apart until he began to have episodes of insanity. Charlotte stuck by her husband till the end, even when he no longer recognized her. Albert was absolutely faithful to his wife and queen, Victoria--and she, in love with him at "second sight" (she didn't much like him the first time she met him when they were both around age 16), dressed in mourning after his death till the day she died, had statues of him put up, and kept his room exactly as he left it. People in arranged marriages certainly knew all about love. Some through affairs, others, miraculously enough, with their partners. And elopement did happen, with lovers finding ways to marry, even in the most constrained and difficult situations (witness poet Elizabeth Barrett who snuck out of the prison of her father's house to marry the love of her life, Robert Browning). In short, I think the LOVERS card, created in a time when marriages were arranged, means just what it says--more so, as divorce was difficult and affairs, if discovered, costly. These people knew all about LOVE and its very hard choices. I think they were even more devoted to the concept of finding that soul mate than we are--who are free to scope out mates, engage in dating survices and have access to divorce. That Lovers card might well have been the most potent card in the deck back then.

Alex	10 May 2003
Thanks for the lenghty and convincing explanation, 13. Yes, now I recall King Arthur. History now is like a soup of letters in my head. I rarely think about it anymore. Sad. Alex. P.S. I know several people whose marriages have been arranged, through my roomate, who's indian. I have lost some of my profound disgust for the idea of arranged marriages. They don't start out with raging hormones and probably never get to it but these people seem to learn to love each other and to be, to each other, partners. It may be a good thing when you start out with a different set of expectations. But now I'm going astray.

Thirteen	11 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex I know several people whose marriages have been arranged, through my roomate, who's indian. I also know an Indian couple who's marriage was arranged. As you say, there were other, cultural expectations. For example, neither partner expected to shine, but to work together pragmatically toward an end (kids, home, prosperity). So, the man was EXPECTED by his family and himself to be a doctor, and the woman EXPECTED to help him be a doctor, and they EXPECTED to eventually have a certain home, and then kids. Given that the two both wanted these things, the marriage has worked out fine. But think of how stiffling and disaterous such a marriage would have been if the wife had had a powerful talent or drive, a need to be an musician or a politician. How would her doctor husband, with his modest expectations, help her develop, grow, allow her the freedom to be all she could be? How could she help him have the comfortable, uneventful, solid life he wanted? It is absolutely true that too many people marry too young, giving into hormones--and then, as they both grow up, find to their dismay that they don't know or like each other at all. But just because an arranged marriage avoids the hormones doesn't mean it avoids other pitfalls. Or do you think YOUR parents could have chosen the right man for you to marry? Would you ask them now to pick a fellow for you--just pick him and you'll marry him? I shutter to think who my parents would have picked for me--not the guy I married and love, that's for sure. Truth is, my parents don't know me, and have never known me, and whoever they would have picked for me would--I've not a doubt in my mind--have made me miserable. I think what needs to be changed, ultimately, on the question of marriage is the belief that everyone should get it right the first time--whatever method of picking a mate they use. And that's just not the case. We need to forgive people for getting it wrong. It's so strange. We don't chastize people for a failed business, but we make it seem like they're failures if their marrage comes to an end.

skytwig	11 May 2003
And would they have selected a same sex partner for their child, if that is what was in the child's heart? And what IS the core of the Lover's card, after all, for many of us choose to NOT marry or even have a partner. My husband died 15+ years ago and I was DONE! Not interested. Has to be pretty darn spectacular for me to even look. How do you interpret the Lovers for those of us who are solitaires or segmented by society because they choose a mainly female or mainly male lifestyle?

Alex	11 May 2003
The purpose of such marriages is that of raising a family, so I don't think arranging a partner of the same sex makes any sense within that tradition Quote: Originally posted by skytwig And would they have selected a same sex partner for their child, if that is what was in the child's heart? I don't know. Quote: Originally posted by skytwig And what IS the core of the Lover's card, after all, for many of us choose to NOT marry or even have a partner. May be that what it means to you in particular, you've had the love of your life and you're still, in a way, connected with him. Quote: Originally posted by skytwig My husband died 15+ years ago and I was DONE! Not interested. Has to be pretty darn spectacular for me to even look. [/b] Cheers Alex.

Alex	11 May 2003
These marriages aren't always built on the expectation that the woman will not pursue her talents. My roomate and her husband are living appart in opposite sides of the country because he has a job that keeps moving him from state to state every year or so, and she is finishing her masters. Their marriage was arranged, but they make the point to afford her the opportunity go grow, as much as him. Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen But think of how stiffling and disaterous such a marriage would have been if the wife had had a powerful talent or drive, a need to be an musician or a politician. How would her doctor husband, with his modest expectations, help her develop, grow, allow her the freedom to be all she could be? How could she help him have the comfortable, uneventful, solid life he wanted? I think they could had chosen better than I did, may be. Because I could not had chosen worse. Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Or do you think YOUR parents could have chosen the right man for you to marry? My parents are not from that tradition, they would not know how to start. Remember that we are talking about a different tradition, within a different culture. Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Would you ask them now to pick a fellow for you--just pick him and you'll marry him? I think what has to be changed is that one does not have to make the right choice and does not have to work on the relationship because there is divorce. Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen I think what needs to be changed, ultimately, on the question of marriage is the belief that everyone should get it right the first time--whatever method of picking a mate they use. I don't blame anyone for getting it wrong. Who am I. I just think there is a lot of suffering and pain out there because people take the issue of marriage very lightly: many of us make poor choices, then we enter a marriage with a misleading set of expectations, and finally, we give it up when these expectations are not met. It is a huge waste of energy, and some people end up with serious trauma. Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen And that's just not the case. We need to forgive people for getting it wrong. It's so strange. We don't chastize people for a failed business, but we make it seem like they're failures if their marrage comes to an end. I think the lovers is a serious card, much more serious than we give it credit. But that's me. And I can't really talk much about it because my marriage was a total failure. Alex.

Thirteen	11 May 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex I think the lovers is a serious card, much more serious than we give it credit. But that's me. And I can't really talk much about it because my marriage was a total failure. But I don't think Lover always has to do with just love and marriage--otherwise poor skytwig is going to have to toss it out all her tarot decks ;) It's about things that complete us, that we need in our lives. And I think that can include good friends, that house we see that we MUST HAVE even if it's going to take a long time to pay off, something we have to do or see in our life. Perhaps that is the answer to skytwig's question--the Lover's card for her is that singular life which completes her as no marriage or partnership could. Not that that would be my first reading of the card for a querent unless I knew them very well. Yes, on first look, the Lovers card would always signify some higher connection with another person--or, contrarywise, as you put it, Alex, a warning to chose wisely. Jane Austen points out in her books two tragedies of middle class marriages in her time, and they're still apt as sensible warnings: 1) The man/woman who goes after someone out of hormones and passion (after a pretty face)--ending up, in the man's case, married to a silly woman he dispises years later, or, in the woman's case, ruined by a cad. 2) The man/woman who marries for money. Though Austen sympathizes with and understands the desperate woman who has no other recourse than to marry a financially secure bore, she emphasizes that little money, with love, is better than a lot of money without. The girl who marries the poor minister because he admires and loves him, is happier than the man who marries the rich heiress for her money. I am sorry, Alex, that your marriage went so wrong. But trust that in any system of marriage, the same thing might have happened. Arranged, for sex, for money, or, as we see on those Reality TV shows, as the winner on a game show--it can always go horribly wrong. To make a marriage go right takes a lot--not the least being raw luck. Here's hoping the Lovers card comes up more positive for you in the near future.

Alex	12 May 2003
I know, I was just refering to one aspect of the card. The original one, probably, for "lovers" means "lovers" not something else. But meanings evolve, I know. Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen But I don't think Lover always has to do with just love and marriage--otherwise poor skytwig is going to have to toss it out all her tarot decks ;). It is OK, 13. I often amaze myself when I look back though, because it was really a bad idea. It's hard to remember how I came up with in first place. Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen I am sorry, Alex, that your marriage went so wrong. But trust that in any system of marriage, the same thing might have happened. Arranged, for sex, for money, or, as we see on those Reality TV shows, as the winner on a game show--it can always go horribly wrong. Thanks for sharing your insights. Alex.

The Two or three lovers thread was originally posted on 07 May 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.