Justice - what slant is most common?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

HudsonGray	17 Jun 2003
I was having a discussion with someone about this card, as it tends to confuse me. The books say one thing, the actual card coming up in readings usually indicates something else. Does Justice deal more with cause & effect (such as Karma?) than with true legal workings? Does the rule of the universe take precident in this card over the Rules & Laws of mankind? I've never had it come up as a legal slant in a reading, even when you'd expect it to. This is a hard card for me to wrap my mind around, in a lot of ways. When I get it in a reading it rarely indicates what I'd think of as true 'justice'. It never showed what the person truly deserved to get. I can't say it's actually mean spirited, but it's been coming really d*** close.

Inana	17 Jun 2003
I've problems too reading this card, wich is curious since is my soul card. So im trying to understand it better. In readings most of the time i dont see it like legal workings, but neither as karma. Usually when appears, i see Justice like having the need of understanding and analizing whats really happening around. Justice needs to use her mind and senses (her eyes are not blindfolded) to know and define the situation before judging. She searches the truth, and after, she evaluates and ponders what she has using the scales. With that knowledge and understanding she is able to make the better decisions. Not everyone has the same needs, so to be fair you need to do something my father uses to say: "To treat everyone in an equally unequal way" (if thats the way to translate it). After this, she dictates and apply the judgement with the sword. This is a weapon and has a doble edge, so it can hurt someone while helping another. And about having what we deserve... well... couldnt it be more like you are facing the consequences about what you did? I mean just like the cause-effect law. This doesnt mean that is necessary something you deserved, but is the consequence generated by something you did before. Also im thinking related to legal issues, Justice can be more like the need of normalize some situations that are unfair or unbalanced somehow, but not necessary moving bureaucracy around. Well, just trying to clear my view on it...

Jenny-Li	17 Jun 2003
My 2 cents: Legal issues is a man-made constructed "justice" and in my mind the Tarot don't deal with that. True justice, such as Karma or whatever else you may choose to call it, is what the Tarot is likely to deal with. An other aspect of this is the fact that there are huge cultural differences in how legal-issues are handled in different parts of the world. What does Justice mean if you're living in a country with dictatorship, for instance, where you can be imprisoned - perhaps even "disappeared" if you just express the "wrong" opinion? And to take a less extreme example: where I come from legal issues are very rare. Swedes don't sue each other half as often as is common in the US. Most people here never have any legal issues, and of those who have they are in 99% of the cases divorces and wills. So what does the Justice-card mean if it turns up in a reading here? The Cosmic Tribe deck - which I use - has renamed Justice to Balance, which makes a lot if sense to me. Spiritual, Universal justice IS balance. And that balance HAS TO start within yourself. I think the cruelty-concept lies in the fact that we humans want to see immediate justice. If someone does something bad to us, we want to see that person being taught a lesson by the Universe the same afternoon, at the very latest within a week. But the Universe doesn't work that way. And the lesson might not be visible to anyone but the person itself, so we should perhaps not be looking for it, but instead just trust the Universe to do its thing, while we do our best to walk our paths, learn our lessons. Or turn the issue around: if we do something we think we should be gratified for, our perspective is still too limited to really see the big picture. In that case, perhaps Justice tells us to take a step back and look at ourselves: Did we really do that good thing in a good way? Did we step on someone else to get there? Did we do it just for the reward we expected? It's a complex card. And since it's a Major-card, it's supposed to be complex. They are there to have something to tell us each and every time we see them. That is their gift to us, even though we try to wrap our heads around it and "get it" all at once. Well, that's what I believe, anyways. Jenny :)

oceanpoetry	17 Jun 2003
When "Justice" comes up in a reading, it brings to my mind balance and karma. If it were to be equated with a planet, I would correlate it with Saturn, Lord of Karma. It is a weighing of the scales to see where you are. Like Saturn transits, this can be challenging or it can be good, depending upon how much work you have put in so far to life's lessons. And Justice is a card that will teach us no matter what the outcome. When this card comes up, I have to remember to let go, because the outcome may not be something I have a direct control over.

divinerguy	17 Jun 2003
I think it can mean both karmic balance and legal process, but I lean toward karma in readings.

galadrial	17 Jun 2003
More than most cards, I rely on the surrounding cards to interpret Justice. When it came up with three "6 Minors" recently, it seemed to be mainly about balance. Then in a spread for my mom about her impending retirement, the surrounding cards seemed to indicate it was both about adjustment to new status, and about pausing and reflecting on a whole career, 3 kids and 2 marriages, and how it has all worked to bring her to this point. I haven't yet had it refer to legalities.

sagitarian	17 Jun 2003
The justice card has come up in representing both for me. I've seen signing of legal paper work in the justice cards (visionary while reading) but it's also come up as "karmic" justice too. This (oddly enough) also depends on what deck I'm using in which way it's refering too. Celtic Dragon Tarot ~ Mankinds law revolving around paperwork. Hanson Roberts Tarot ~ Karmic justice. Universal Waite ~ More often then not Mankinds law (seen this to reperesent court cases as well as paperwork). When I say paperwork, it could be something like buying of a house, or the final signing for adoption of a child. It doesn't necessarily mean court papers.

HudsonGray	17 Jun 2003
It came up as an 'outcome' for someone in a reading I did (can't remember the other cards) for a guy who was chemically poisoned at work - the chemicals were not supposed to be there much less allow him to be exposed, but he was & he suffered severe nerve damage. The workplace denied it, Osha found it all over his work bench, yet the insurance company won't pay (one of the board of directors is in the insurance field). He found his workplace had removed 15 pages of his doctor's report before sending it on to the insurance company, and later that the insurance company had not had a doctor look over his records (they were downsizing at the time), someone just rubber stamped it 'no'. He took them to court on a workers comp case, which dragged 7 years now. The judge threw out the testimony of the liver expert and the nerve damage doctor and went with testimony of a doctor who couldn't be pinned down on anything plus hadn't even examined the guy. He lost the case. I did the reading a week before the last hearing--Justice as the outcome card. It makes no sense to me. The guy's got severe medical problems, has had his life shortened by 15-20 years, and nothing in the case went well in spite of testimony from specialists in the field that were called in. His lawyer was fighting tooth and nail for him. Osha had them dead to rights too, with swab samples on the workbench gotten AFTER the workplace attempted to clean the area (they even installed new drywall). This is a nice guy, Karma didn't need to do this to him. I couldn't see the Justice or balance anywhere but one sided against him. (Two other people in the same section of the building took nerve damage from the chemical but were intimidated against filing with workers comp). See my confusion with this card?

Nuovena	20 Jun 2003
To Hudson Gray Sometimes I will read my cards literally and it works. I will go with the name of the card or the picture vs the varying shades of grey the cards also offer. Sometimes my personal bias, beliefs or the obviousness of a situation (according to my opinion,) will determine how I read the cards. If this were me doing the reading - I might have tended to taken this card literally as per the name itself - because of *my* wanting and beliefs over the querants situation. I also might have wanted to give this person hope. Who wants to deliver bad news afterall? Per the books I've referenced to reply to your post (as it interested me,) it appears this card was advising that there was an imbalance at hand. Your querant was fighting the mighty corporate world. How imbalanced is a legal matter between the corporate world and the little guy? Justice's eyes are open, seeking truth, not blind to it. Your querant was in need of keeping his eyes wide open. He may have been in need of bringing parts of the situation into balance - not it being balanced already. Perhaps the final outcome is that your client still has an opportunity of pursuing this further? Afterall, it wasn't Death nor the Tower that appeared... Sometimes I will do a reading on the final outcome card to give further clarity to it just to be sure. I hope this helps somehow. Btw, grrr on what his company did to him.

firemaiden	20 Jun 2003
I've read it sometimes to mean marriage, as in "going before a Justice of the Peace"

jmd	20 Jun 2003
Much as already been said, and I wonder if I can add anything worthy of more. In one sense, the Justice card may indeed point to a kind of higher Justice. I am reminded here of the trials of Job, and the very rewards he obtained from this trial of faith. In another sense, Justice, as earlier understood by, for example, the ancient Greeks (as dike - which I also mention in the thread VIII - Justice) certainly didn't have some of the more common legalistic or even re-dressing of balance that we tend to often impart to the card. Yet, Justice, even in this more legalistic sense, may in the long term prevail, given its outcome position. Thirdly, however, I would really like to know how the card was placed in the context of which other cards - and I realise I am asking for the impossible, as it has already been mentioned that this is forgotten. For example, if, using a Celtic Cross spread, the 'crowning' position was, for example, the five of swords or five of cups, it may be that the outcome of Justice is a rectification at that level, and not in the legalistic sense. The person may have regained his or her sense of purpose or self... without implying that s/he has been properly compensated for the inappropriate trauma suffered. Hence, the other cards may very well indicate the sense of the 'righting' towards the 'straight and narrow'. Of course, when one especially knows a court case is immanent, to see it in that light is not only difficult, but seems virtually counter-intuitive. :)

Ruby Red Slippers	20 Jun 2003
HudsonGrey: I have read and re-read this thread, several times. I must say, you have caused me a lot of “thought time” over this one. Perhaps it is because I work in the legal field and have seen the same inequality that has pulled at your heartstrings and frustrated your nature. Ugh…how can this be??? :confused: Since I also do subtle energy healing work, it has gotten me thinking about this issue over and over again over the past 7 years. I have come to the conclusion that anyone who has an injustice committed to them, in the sense of your client, feels a need to have some kind of re-payment for that injustice. (Someone is going to “pay” for what has happened to him or her.) In selecting that energy into their space, they accept all of the negative energy that comes with working through this system. Please understand, I am not saying this people should not pursuit legal actions, because I believe that they should utilize the system. I am only making an observation based on my experiences. The “process” then, can take on a life of it’s own. In doing that the individual lives, eats, breathes their “case”. I believe that the body is capable of only “holding” so much…so if it is filled with all of this negativity there is little room for positive energy. Now some people put their cases in suit and withdraw from the system with buffers of people in between them and the outcome of the case. They do not seem to be as negatively affected personally. I’m speaking here of the individual as a whole, who has to function in his activities of daily living while the process is in play, which can be years in some cases. Does he breath live for the settlement? Or does he go about his life and do the inner work to act in his life rather than react to what the outside says his life should be? My take on this case was the fact that your client had invested everything in the “outcome” of this case. I think it is interesting to note the comment from Sweden, were suing people is not part of their system. They do not have the same energy surrounding the climate they live in, therefore, studies have shown that Swedes, do suffer the same ailments and accident related diagnoses but have much better outcomes health wise that governments who promote the “suing process”. Therefore, my take on this is that the energy to heal is much greater than the energy to sustain suffering to get to the desired outcome of a big settlement. I see this card as the ‘balance’ of the individual, sometimes that may mean a literal court action but only when the “legal” action is tied to the karma of the person. In other words perhaps, too much emphasis was put on this card, “knowing” the situation. It is why I try to look, or ask, what is the karmic influence here? Why do some get more than they deserve in the legal system and those that deserve get little to none? Them that has get, and them that has not don’t. I don’t know the answer to this but I do know that 10 people can have the same diagnosis and they will all recover differently, with the same treatment based on their own internal “idea” of themselves and their surrounding support system/energy. I know this may not make you feel any better. But, I thank you for the opportunity to re-explore this card. In my work, I have found that the legal system is a process, it just is. It has no emotion attached to it, no emotional invested in the outcome. The individual on the other hand has the option to decide how much of his personal emotion and what kind of emotion he invests in the outcome and that makes all the difference. I am reminded of Wicca’s premise that the first rule is to harm none, for whatever you send out will come back 3 fold. Does that mean that when we set out to make someone pay, to harm them for harming us, that the outcome will be more harm or disappointment? Justice is personal to the individual, which is why I am always leery about making a “literal” statement about this card in a spread. Ruby Red Slippers

Diana	20 Jun 2003
firemaiden: Justice and Pope together would often mean marriage. But the other way round could mean divorce.... Justice to me in my readings can be karma or human justice. Sometimes the two are inter-linked. But many times when I have had this card in a reading, I have been reminded that human Justice is corrupt. That there is one justice for the rich and powerful, and another for the rest. HudsonGray's post is very much like the kind I have seen in readings. (It can be wise to fear the justice of the powerful. And to fear the anger of those who are deprived of power.)

HudsonGray	20 Jun 2003
I can't say he's bitter, but he was solidly dissapointed (as was his lawyer who said 6 major points in the case weren't even covered by the judge in the determination) and disgusted and has a firm belief that the legal system doesn't work for the individual (there's practically been people coming out of the woodwork with info about cases lost). His case is currently in appeal, he has probably another 2 year wait. (BTW, his case was 'rescheduled' a total of 22 times, a record of some sort, our lawyer had never seen one this bad before). He's not holding on to negative energy about it, it wasn't a live & breathe for the rest of your life kind of attention he brought to it, but the disappointment was palpable when the verdict was sent in the mail. I think he's resigned & just wants to see how far his lawyer can still take this. She did a great job and he said so repeatedly. It didn't help that the District Attorney put in a letter to him (when he wanted an investigation of unsafe work practices at the business) that 'since you removed yourself from the place of business before you died, no crime has been committed' ???? (He went to the doctor when nerve damage showed up in his left hand & he was dropping things, she didn't want him to return to work till he showed improvement or change, and THAT raised a whole pile of things....sorry, it's a complex story). I wish I'd written down the exact wording of the question and the cards that came up & the positions.... it would sure help. But this was over 2 years ago, so I can't really remember other than the Justice card, which threw me when the verdict came. Thanks for the thoughts on the card. This one, and the confusing (to me) shallowness on the Star and the apparent simplicity of Temperance always were hard for me to put a finger on. These three majors always gave me trouble.

Belladonna	27 Jun 2003
Hi there! I thought it might be helpful to understand the ancient egyptian goddess, Maat, a little bit. She is a goddess of justice. The one who weighed the hearts of the dead against a feather, the heavier the heart, the weightier their sins. But originally, the egyptians' idea of justice and Maat's role was more about keeping the laws of nature balanced. And as we can observe, nature does not remain steady and still and peaceful with subtle back and forths (which I think might better be represented by Temperance), but by swinging between extremes often with dramatic adjustments (earthquakes, volcanoes, tidal waves, etc.) Or perhaps, "going full circle" would be more apt. And while these extremes can seem wild and indeed even catastrophic for us humans, in the grand scheme of the planet, they are merely the adjustments made by Mother Nature to restore balance within Her evolutionary cycles. So, while Justice may represent adjustments forced upon our lives, I think the question of whether they stem from our judicial system or karma is irrelevant. Karma affects us in many different ways, the judicial system being one of them, even when the verdict seems unfair.

Cerulean	27 Jun 2003
...is pursuing 'justice' in this case of the reading now a slow and weighty balancing process for him? Let me find my Garett Knight books, as his definition of Justice was from ancient sources, even holding it significant as representing a kind of weighty significance. The presence of the angel and irises in Temperance and it's position always seemed meaningful...in the same way, the Star that follows the Tower and leads us to the Moon and Sun means something to me inside...but I think G. Knight's words expressed it better. My Oswald Wirth sources might even hold a better answer... What a heartbreaking story. It really leads one into a deeper meaning of Justice...

LadyMedusa	27 Jun 2003
If I might add a brief thought ...HudsonGray you did write the case is still in the appeals process, so it isn't really over yet. This may be an example of a lost battle within a successful war. It could be that the final justice will be an exposure, and lessons to some of the other participants in the earlier stages as well as the corporation. Justice being a major, the final picture it represents might be a bigger picture than has been considered so far. LadyMedusa

Minos	27 Jun 2003
Justice is the Fool's girlfriend.

firemaiden	27 Jun 2003
Minos I am SOO glad that you are back and posting again. I always learn so much from your posts. Now, pray tell, why is Justice the Fool's girlfriend?

Dark Eyes	27 Jun 2003
Hi, I have always seen this card as a card of "cutting out all the b*ll sh*t". Of "throwing out the rubbish" so to speak. It is a card I too have always had difficulty with when it comes up in certain spreads, and am thrilled to hear the opinions and interpretations in this thread. It is not an emotional card in my eyes, it is cool yet sensitive. I feel a certain repose when I see this card, but sometimes the justice/kama interpretation just doesn't fit the querents problem. It is a tough one, keep it going please, any simple explanations are welcome with me as well. Regards Dark Eyes. :)

HudsonGray	27 Jun 2003
Belladonna I'm not sure I'd agree with the adjustment form of justice--it's not anything being judged, the name of the card would be way off if this was the take on it--whereas if the card was called 'adjustment' then it'd be more in line. Yet the image on most decks shows a legal aspect, which pretty much implies man's law...woman in robe, scales, sword, etc. It's not a yin/yang card, oops, that'd be Temperance or such I think. Maybe full circle---no that's the Wheel of Fortune.... I dunno, like I said, sometimes this card is hard to make sense of. Gettng it in a reading & trying to fit a meaning to it isn't supposed to be that complex.

Ruby Red Slippers	27 Jun 2003
Thirteen's Observations "I think Justice is a good card (as compared to Strength) to stand as the first of the next ten cards of the Major Arcana. The reason I think it right is because with it we move from the physical world (first ten cards) into the metaphysical world (next ten). When I look at Justice, I always see the two worlds balanced on her scales. "You've spent all your time in one," she seems to be saying, time to move into the other and balance things out." One thing to remember about the Justice card is that it is not about punishment, good, bad, right or wrong. It i's about adjustment. The sword suggests that sometimes this won't be pleasant. Justice pares things down with that sword so that the scales end up equal. The message is to do what's necessary, no matter how hard, how disagreeable, in order to gain, or re-gain equilibrium. It is not a nice card, but in its way, it is a very wise card." Ruby Red Slippers

Cerulean	28 Jun 2003
In my favorite tarot decks, many of them Italian, I find I favor the XI and Justice as the middle of the trumps. I realize that I liked Gareth Knight's books in Tarot Magic (used to be Treasure House of Images in Destiny Books, black paperback cover) and The Magical World of the Tarot: Fourfold Mirror of the Universe. His discussion and viewpoint does require some work and it is not a faithful agreement that those who enjoy Rider-Waite style decks and the numbering system. So it may not be popular or common if the Rider Waite as a bestseller is considered a most common viewpoint. If you believe Justice should be card eight and strength/fortitude is card 11, then you and I will probably differ in how we read for people or ourselves. The old world view of Marseilles numbering isn't easy or rapid. I view it similar to older professions with rules of balance and order such as accounting or legalistic judgments. The bottom line or codes and rules can make the individual feel bad---and it isn't always the most merciful or kindest outcome in human relations. In the reading of the poor individual whose legal outcome at this time was 'two years for an appeal judgment,' it certainly seems Justice was a slow boat that was being held up at every port...I hope his outcome comes faster and perhaps 'Judgment' will be the card with the 'Nine of Cups' in his favor. My best wishes, Mari H.

Minos	29 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Minos I am SOO glad that you are back and posting again. Ah yes...Tarotforum. You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave. ;) Quote: I always learn so much from your posts. Stop! Sometimes I make things up. Quote: Now, pray tell, why is Justice the Fool's girlfriend? Well, it often seems like that in practice, doesn't it? I mean, sensible girl from a good family led astray by a ne'er-do-well? Moreover: In Egyptian, Justice is MAAT. In Medieval Italian, Fool is "Matto". Phoney linguistically, but it starts to work when you think about it. The fool is a clown (Harlequin). Justice, with her blindfold/mask, is Columbine. What is more immature than folly? What is more foolish than the hope for justice on this earth? The two are made for each other. Plus, Fool=Aleph, Justice=Lamed. Aleph-Lamed=AL, God Lamed-Aleph=LA, Nothing AL-LA, God-Nothing, the eternal dance of creation, substance and nothingness. The only more obvious pairing, IMHO, is the Empress and Hierophant. But that for another day. ;)

Dark Eyes	29 Jun 2003
That is great Minos.... luv it !! Not sure how to make heads or tails from it but I love it nevertheless. I have had a few glasses of nice red wine... so perhaps tomorrow it will make more sense. I love it anyway. Good stuff. Dark Eyes. :)

The Justice - what slant is most common? thread was originally posted on 17 Jun 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.