moon as pisces

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

isthmus nekoi	07 Jun 2003
I've seen a lot of ppl wonder why the Moon isn't assigned the moon, but the sign of Pisces. Afterall, Sun is assigned sun! So after reading up on astrology this is the conclusion I've drawn about Pisces and how it relates to the Moon. Pisces, ruled by Neptune/Jupiter represents a loss of the ego and an absorption into the unconscious. Perhaps this is why there are no ppl in the Moon card; the moon is a complete absence of ego, there is only the collective uncon, dreams. Pisces also illustrates the positive and negative aspects of the card. On one hand, a deep spirituality, intuition, a feeling of oneness, restoration. On the other hand, Pisces also rules madness, delusions, confusion. The moon as an *astrological* symbol does not contain these impersonal connotations as it is concerned w/personal emotional habits and needs.

Moongold	07 Jun 2003
Quote: The moon as an *astrological* symbol does not contain these impersonal connotations as it is concerned w/personal emotional habits and needs. Hi Isthmus, You've got me a but puzzled here. What could be more personal than madness, delusion and confusion? :) I like your analysis of the reasons for Moon not being assigned the Moon in the scheme of tarot/astrology associations. People in the Golden Dawn were responsible for these assignations, weren't they? I imagine that would have been their reasoning as well. The Pisces sign shows two fish pulling in opposite directions. One fish supposedly represents the Soul and the other the Personality. The Pisces sign represents the tension between the two and the need for the Self to integrate these aspects. If one doesn't madness can occur. It is a good representation of the tension and ambivalence sometimes ascribed to Pisces. The RWS Moon card represents the Golden dawn view. Even the Thoth Moon has two sentries pictured - guarding the gateway to the unconscious? Tarot of the Sephiroth features Hather in her Moon Goddess role. There are a number of Goddesses associated with the Moon and I imagine that some other decks must recognise these. I'm interested in knowing how the earlier tarot decks represent the Moon. Without people as well or was that just a Golden Dawn manifestation? If the Tarot had been designed by other cultures there probably would have been less vacuousness in the image. Moon is also assigned to the High Priestess so there is recognition of humanity there, even though in the form of a woman. Is the High Priestess really a human .......or a quality?

NeXoRiouS	07 Jun 2003
Why is pisces represented by fishes? Why can't it be lions or crocodiles? Anyway, what is golden dawn?

Moongold	07 Jun 2003
Hi NeXoRious, Pisces is a Latin word meaning *Fishes*. Latin is the language from which English originally derived. The Golden Dawn was a secret order of magicians founded in 1888 by a group pf Freemasons and Rosicrucians. Thse two groups are quasi-religious organizations I think. They were interested in the esoteric arts, including tarot. The Golden Dawn designed their own Tarot but the Rider Waite Smith tarot, the mostly widely known tarot in the West, was also designed by members of the Golden Dawn. Do you have the RWS Tarot, or another one?

Keslynn	08 Jun 2003
This is why I've only found it partially useful to associate astrological signs and planets to the majors. Honestly, I've looked many a time at the attributions and thought "huh?" I think if you're going to use such correspondences, they should at least be useful to you or reveal something new. The Golden Dawn attributions have only occasionally done that for me so I tend to not bother with the astrological/runic/qabalistic/whatever else system that someone else made up, unless it gives me new insight into either topic. Isthmus and moongold, lots of interesting things to think about! :) Kes

isthmus nekoi	08 Jun 2003
lol Moongold.... I'm coming from the psychoanalytic school where disturbances such as madness, delusion, neurosis etc. are a result of a confrontation w/the inhuman uncon. An inability to assimilate it. Something greater than humanity threatening your sense of human boundary and finity (is that a word??). Which is very Piscean eh! I like your explanation of the P glyph, yes that is in essence, the ambivalence of P. NeXoRious, I don't know why the final sign is represented by fish but I have a couple guesses :) First, the sea often symbolizes the uncon, so fish unlike other animals can reach those watery depths. Fish often swim in groups. They move in masses - so there is a loss of ego there. Also, fish are very inhuman. Fish and reptiles. They're cold blooded. The further away from humanity you get, the closer to god. I looked and indeed the Marseilles deck has no people. But it does have the howling dogs, the crayfish, the dual towers and the moon dew. I forget what alchemical significance the moon dew has, but it's in Rider and Thoth so it's very important. Also, the moon has a face, but it does not look upon the world below. HP is a very mysterious lady, and acts as a conduit b/w the ego and the uncon. By maintaining this barrier, one can access the mysteries w/o losing the ego which is probably why we don't normally associate HP w/madness but rather dreams, intuition. The moon in astrology is pretty humanized which is probably why we relate the moon to women/mother in the natal chart. Can you imagine the transsaturnian planets as primary indicators of the mother or your basic instincts? Scary! :P p.s. Here's a Piscean moon quote from Sylvia Plath's Munich Manniquins (sorry for the bad spelling :(): "Unloosing their moons, month after month, to no purpose. The blood flood is the flood of love, the absolute sacrifice." At its core, the moon symbol is wholly impersonal (no purpose), and yet, w/i it you can connect to that Piscean, universal love that holds back nothing, and asks for nothing in return.

allibee	08 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold The Pisces sign shows two fish pulling in opposite directions. One fish supposedly represents the Soul and the other the Personality. The Pisces sign represents the tension between the two and the need for the Self to integrate these aspects. It's funny, but I have always associated the two fish with infinity, the cycle of life, time, tide. Fish follows fish follows fish, sort of thing, quite the opposite of pulling apart, LOL. "Another strange view from the mysterious world of allibee....." A.

Moongold	08 Jun 2003
(((Allibee)))) That is not strange at all. I think that perspective is peculiarly Christian. Christianity absorbed and translated many pagan symbols and rituals, and I guess this might be just another one. Greetings Keslyn, There seem to be so many natural linkages between everything to me and I think that sometimes the meanings are enriched. I take your point through: that sometimes we really stretch to make appropriate associations.

Moongold	08 Jun 2003
Quote: The further away from humanity you get, the closer to god....... At its core, the moon symbol is wholly impersonal (no purpose), and yet, w/i it you can connect to that Piscean, universal love that holds back nothing, and asks for nothing in return Wow. …Isthmus I could write a thesis on both of these wonderful comments. It would be lovely to meet you. We have many street cafes here and one of my favourite pass times is to spend hours in these places with friends discussing such questions. Before one knows it, the day has lengthened to evening and the wise Moon peeps over the horizon as we stumble home awash with coffee, brilliant ideas and comradeship. Back to the Moon and the reasons for its association with Pisces. The Fish symbol ebbs and slows, symbolizing the Piscean emotional make up. Pisceans waver between the inner and outer worlds. They listen and often reflect the outer world. I think Pisceans have a particular sensitivity to the outer world and the challenge for them is to filter these impressions, not to absorb them. Absorption makes Pisceans crazy, eccentric, neurotic and pain filled. :) Yet that same sensitivity makes often makes them gifted healers and intuitives. My Mother was a Pisces and I have a Pisces Moon, so I have some direct experience. Pisceans are good reflective listeners. They can help people find the bridge between their own inner and outer worlds. Now the Moon, dear Moon, is also a reflector and a highlighter. Does she internalise all of our projections? Ah…..look at her scarred face and wonder. How many thousands of years of human projections? She is the closest to us of any heavenly body, our dear eternal companion. The association of Moon with the tides and water also make her a most likely associate of Pisces and we could go on from there. I love the Moon. Now in the Rider Waite Smith Moon card, the Moon dew could represent a few things. Sally Nicholson in “Jung and Tarot” speculates that these drops could represent the Moon sucking the last vestiges of vitality from the barren lunar landscape which so often presages the dark night of the soul OR They could represent the Moon returning this vitality to Earth once Man has plumbed the depths of his own soul and is ready for spiritual sustenance. You know another theory about Moon? She shelters and guards us in the night. She enables to see all that is dark in our spirits and bring this to the broad light of day so that we may be better prepared for the eternal light of the Sun. We might have to leave your comment about distance from God to another coffee, and a bit of liqueur perhaps? Moon dew?

Thirteen	09 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Keslynn This is why I've only found it partially useful to associate astrological signs and planets to the majors. Honestly, I've looked many a time at the attributions and thought "huh?" The astrological correspondence is not a matter of linear thinking (Moon for Moon, Sun for Sun, etc.) What fun would that be? ;) Rather they are the heart, the pages beneath the cover. Not saying you have to agree, but do have a little trust that the Golden Dawn folk didn't just toss darts at the cards and say, "Let's make that one Pisces!" Both Crowley and Waite were incredible scholars on the history of the mystical arts--mythology, tarot, numberology and astrology. The High Priestess was given the moon because she is, if you will, the Moon Goddess. Based on Isis with her Moon Crown, she is represenative of any High Priestess, who, in magic circles, is always connected to the moon--and all women, who follow the phases of the moon. In Pagan societies, the Moon was more powerful than the Sun--it was by the moon that you had your rituals, made your calendar, etc. What's most important to understand, though, is that the High Priestess is ALL aspects of the Moon--dark, crescent, half and full. The Moon card offers ONLY the full Moon, just ONE ASPECT of all the Moon is. That aspect which is full, and round, and makes us all a little pit giddy and mad. The full moon dogs howl at, and people dance naked under. The moon which makes folk DREAM fantastic dreams. The moon which is reflected in the water, gazing down at itself, if you will, like a psychic into a scrying bowl. And THAT is why the FULL MOON is Pisces--that one particular aspect. Not the DARK of the moon, not the crescent or the half, but the FULL moon. Those two fish, the one in the bowl hanging above the earth, darting around, gazing down at the other, who, gazing up, is swimming in that vast sea. It is at night that they see each other, and unite in dreams, the largest deepest ocean of all.

isthmus nekoi	09 Jun 2003
Moongold, Now if only we could transport back to the court of Heian Japan to their infamous moon viewing parties! Actually, I think there still are moon viewing parties in the rural areas of modern Japan. Just a night of food and poetry, contemplating the cool beauty of the moon... I'm recalling something that Arroyo wrote in his "Astrology, Karma & Transformation".... in which he underlines the importance of the fact that although the sun is many times larger than the moon - they both appear to be the same size from earth. I find this fascinating b/c 1) if we were on any other planet, our experience of lunar/solar would be so different 2) while the physical experience of the sun/moon are equal, our modern society is glorifies solar qualities (and what's more, equates it w/the male gender)... It's not an easy world to be a Pisces in, that is for sure... but it's a very Sag world out there, so you've got your sun sign going for ya! ^_^ Re: the moon dew - I remember reading something in Edinger's analysis of Jung's major alchemical work - mysterium coniontius (or something like that) that was very similar. I've forgotten the specifics though! Quote: Originally posted by Moongold We might have to leave your comment about distance from God to another coffee, and a bit of liqueur perhaps? Moon dew? Closer and closer to Pisces w/each suggestion!

Moongold	09 Jun 2003
Hi Isthmus, You have just sparked a brilliant idea. My next party (I have one every five years :)) will be a Moon party. We might need to wait for the Summer for the maximum effect - all my friends are getting older and feel the cold! Seriously, I'm fascinated with the understanding of the High Priestess' association with all aspects of Moon. We don't usually connect her with madness, do we?

Thirteen	09 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Seriously, I'm fascinated with the understanding of the High Priestess' association with all aspects of Moon. We don't usually connect her with madness, do we? No--that's for the Moon card ;) The HPS is the instinctive, secretive, magic part of the Moon--and we do connect her with the changes of the moon, the "moodiness" of it all. Which, let's face it, some might say is a form of madness. What we don't connect her with are crazy hallucinations--if you've got the HPS, what you're seeing are psyhic visions. a peek behind that veil into those strange, moonlit lands. But thoughs some might think it so, it's not lunacy.

isthmus nekoi	10 Jun 2003
It's not lunacy w/HP b/c the ego's still in the driver's seat. In the Moon, the ego's passively sitting shotgun, or worse, in the backseat, or even worse... just not in the car anymore. Which is big trouble. Hope your moon party goes well!

Thirteen	10 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi It's not lunacy w/HP b/c the ego's still in the driver's seat. In the Moon, the ego's passively sitting shotgun, or worse, in the backseat, or even worse... just not in the car anymore. Which is big trouble. Hope your moon party goes well! Good point!

Moongold	10 Jun 2003
I would like to have more attacks of the HP's! Interesting. Moon is quite an eerie card then. The light almost replicates sunlight but it clearly isn’t because this is the Moon card. Are we deluded even now? Gad refers to this light as the light of the world of archetypes where no discriminating ego consciousness exists. This is your comment too, Isthmus. The face of the Moon itself appears to be sorrowful and gazing inward. It is a feminine face. The dogs are barking and the crayfish appears to beseech the Moon. Are the dogs barking in anger, sorrow or the eerie acknowledgement that we on earth know precedes natural disasters such as earthquakes? Dogs are always aware of such things long before we are. Is this the setting of madness/psychosis to which you refer? I haven’t noticed before but there are two Pillars through which one has to pass to get to the cool blue horizon beyond. I have the High Priestess card before me as well. Two pillars also but they are nothing like the bleak pillars in the Moon card Back to the Moon card if we don’t pass through those bleak pillars we will be trapped in the “earthquake” (madness) or left in the pool with the crayfish. The cool distance which we need to reach is the same colour as the robes of the High Priestess. The image of a child taking shelter in the robes of its Mother comes reassuringly to mind. Ah, the Moon card suddenly becomes a very different thing. Moon XVIII reduces to IX Hemit. That is interesting isn’t it? Hermit looks within as one has to in the light of the Moon. It is interesting that Moon appears between Star and Sun. The Tower is just a warning of comparatively minor disasters compared with madness. And Star is a promise or dream we need before we navigate the odd lunar landscape. It's an image of hope and promise to enable us to keep going. This is often true in life isn’t it? If we didn’t have that glimmer of hope we may not complete the journey. We might die or stay locked in the pool of delusion.. This exercise has completely revised my view of Moon. And, Isthmus, this is what Jung said about the moon dew: Usually it is said that from the moon comes the dew, but the moon is also the aqua mirifica that extracts the souls from the bodies or gives the bodies life and soul…As the water of ablution, the dew falls from heaven, purifies the body, and makes it ready to receive the soul; in other words it brings about the "albedo” the white state of innocence

isthmus nekoi	11 Jun 2003
Certainly there are different stages of madness.... But this is the risk you run w/a Moon experience, so Moon can be more destructive than the Tower b/c w/the Tower, you at least *know* something is wrong (hopefully)! In all cases, w/Moon - the person who is driving is not at 100% for some reason or another. Moon can be positive though. If the ego can fight to integrate such powerful energy into the conscious structure, to change itself into something stronger to take back control, therin lies the real possibility of *reconstituting the wholeness of the psyche* if your ego can take it. Sometimes losing your ego can be a sort of madness that is necessary to restore the psyche. (Now this is a very Jungian view, and in fact, sometimes contrary to contemporary methods of dealing w/mental illness.) Madness, if it can be worked through, connects you to something you couldn't have otherwise. b/c let's face it: consciousness is *very* limiting :) Also, there is something to be said about the connection that comes w/losing your ego - that pure hit - there is nothing else like it. Sure there's the madness of mobs and paranoia, but there is the madness of love, the madness of art, the madness of spirituality. Have you ever seen religious gatherings where some ppl just lose it? Looks fun and dangerous doesn't it? It is. If it's done right, it can be pure ecstacy. Thus, w/all cases of ego annilation, *addiction* is a serious risk, another Piscean theme. The main dif b/w madness and genius is that w/madness, there is no conscious understanding of the Moon experience. w/genius, the person has something useful to show for it; *they can connect others to their Moon experience*. Although it is a very fine line b/w the two. The 2 pillars, these are the 2 pillars in Death, I believe in the Waite deck. I thought they were buildings... Physical death naturally, is the ultimate loss of ego. At least, I hope it is!!! I don't know what gets ppl out of a Moon experience except that it must reconnect the person w/their human nature. Reconnect them w/their personality, subjectivity, mortality. It must make you *care* again. If you hope, then you must care enough to hope... p.s. Thanks for the quote. I had a quote about dogs that was great, pls give me some time to find it.

isthmus nekoi	13 Jun 2003
Here's a quote from Susan Greenfield's The Private Life of the Brain. It's a layman's text that's a little behind in terms of research, but the quote I think is pertinent. "When ppl lose their minds, blow their minds, or are out of their minds w/fear or ecstacy, they are no longer accessing that highly personalized set of values, history, and unique view of life." Basically, she's describing the role of the lower brain in primal emotions, and the cognitive functioning of the cerebral cortex. ie. a Moon event dampens your cerebral cortex and the primary functions of the 'reptile brain' (or fish brain if you're talking Pisces!) are more pronounced. Note that drugs tamper w/the normal functioning of the cerebral cortex as well. Another quote from Isidore Ducasse (that I posted to a different thread): "One day my mother, glassy-eyed, said to me: 'Whenever you are in bed and hear the dogs' howling in the fields, hide under the bedclothes, don't deride what they do: they thirst insatiably for the infinite, like you, me, and the rest of us humans...'"

Thirteen	13 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by isthmus nekoi Here's a quote from Susan Greenfield's a Moon event dampens your cerebral cortex and the primary functions of the 'reptile brain' (or fish brain if you're talking Pisces!) are more pronounced. Excellent point. Thanks for that quote. Quote: Another quote from Isidore Ducasse (that I posted to a different thread): "One day my mother, glassy-eyed, said to me: 'Whenever you are in bed and hear the dogs' howling in the fields, hide under the bedclothes, don't deride what they do: they thirst insatiably for the infinite, like you, me, and the rest of us humans...'" Whoa. Mom should have been taking some serious medications....or abstaining.

Moongold	13 Jun 2003
Ah......every dog has his day: In the rabbinical book it saith The dogs howl, when, with icy breath Great Sammael, the Angel of Death, Takes through the town his flight. Longfellow: Golden Legends Dogs are so important to us and have many associations with myth and death. For you both as astrologers: the story of Icarius who was taught the cultivation of vines by Dionysius. He was slain by peasants who had become intoxicated by wine he had given them and who thought it was poisoned. They buried him under a tree. His daughter, Erigone, searching for her father, was directed to the spot by the howling of his dog, Moera, and when she discovered the body she hanged herself for grief. Icarius, according to this legend, became the constellation, Bootes; Erigone, the constellation, Virgo; and Moera, the star Procyon, which rises in July, a little before the dog-star.

isthmus nekoi	15 Jun 2003
There's also the triple headed hound, Cerberus, w/its links to the Erinyes and other triple lunar goddesses.

Jewel	16 Jun 2003
Isn't neptune assigned to the Hanged Man, which would make pisces the Hanged Man and not the Moon? .... I was under the impression that the Moon was in Cancer ... And I am pisces ... am I an example of dillusional? ~chuckles~

isthmus nekoi	17 Jun 2003
I've only seen Cancer and Moon linked in the Vertigo deck.... However, even in the more traditional decks (Rider Waite/Thoth), you have both sign and planet associated w/different cards. For example, Venus is given to the Empress, while Libra is given to Justice so it is okay to have Moon ruled by Pisces and Hanged Man by Neptune. In astrology, the moon is the ruler of Cancer however, if that's what you meant.... Neptune's assignment to the Hanged Man to me colours the card w/references to Christ and Christianity in general, as well as emphasizing the theme of sacrifice.

katfanning	06 Aug 2004
My quest for gaining insight into the Moon has opened a new world to me. I am Pisces. I am a Chinese Goat. I am ethereal to the max. I lose "consciousness" and ego on a regular basis. I'm "screwed." Loose or tight, depending on the day, hour, minute, even second... I am but a fledgling in the study of Tarot, and the unconscious, and Buddhism, and, and, and... I gain insight into considerably more than the Moon in my reading here. I gain insight into me, and into the situation about which I seek answers (quite the unusual saga of death and life). The Tarot has become my path dotted with the dew of enlightenment. In this chapter of the saga I have no other avenue. I agree that the Moon be associated with Pisces. Knowing myself all to well, yet not at all, I UNDERSTAND the association within my very being. It is, indeed, both positive and negative. There is something nepharious about it, yet enlightening. The Moon represents, to me, paradox. She (the moon is very feminine for me) enlightens, yet veils reality. I could write volumes, yet realize (a discerning state of mind) that I cannot here. I will think volumes instead. You will be hearing from me. : )

lionette	06 Aug 2004
Bumping this thread ... in light of the Pisces full moon happening at the end of the month. :) Fascinating thread -- thanks for this insightful discussion of one card whose meaning I've found to be very tricky.

The moon as pisces thread was originally posted on 07 Jun 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.