Queens

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Moongold	09 Jun 2003
It was suggested in another thread that we have a discussion on the Queens as a group and I 'd like to see whether others are interested in doing this. It would be good to actually go through all the Court cards, character by character, suit by suit. It makes more sense to do it methodically than by focussing on the odd Queen, usually Queen Swords for example, when the need comes up. Would anyone else be willing to do this? One approach would be to discuss the role of the Court card generally and then perhaps to discuss each suit. If we were to begin with Queens what would we say? Queens know who they are. Let me refer to Rachel Pollack's summary of their roles A. They know who they are and their rightful place in the world B. They are the expression of female power in their various ways C. They express a quality as much as their gender D They appreciate life E. They inspire rather than command In the Sephiroth Tarot, each Queen personifies the characteristics of one of the four suits but in general they: A. Express the importance of integrating and adapting concepts and procedures B. Represent the fluid, magnetic atmosphere of each suit C. Manage authority and responsibility D. Hold the intelligence of nature, natural instincts and desires and the truth of the heart and soul rather than the mind. E. Hold instinctual discrimination between right and wrong, health and unhealthy, good and bad Mary Greer said; While Queens and Kings are equally skilled, the Queens have fully developed talents that are personal and interpersonal and they focus on understanding the deeper underlying meanings of things. As a Queen of Cuos or Pentacles you are caring, nurturing and comforting. As Queen of Wands or Swords you are directing, teaching. observing and implementing, Queens accomplish things. They give advice. Quens are most like the Empress. They are related to the element of water. I'm sure some will disagree on some of those ideas anyway. It seems that it might be worth doing something like this: beginning with a discussion of the general role and then perhaps discussing how the Queen in each suit may or may not embody that role. There could be more radical approaches as well. What do you think?

Baby Owl	09 Jun 2003
I like this idea, Moongold. It seems we would need to agree on a list of traits to begin with (such as you listed). I'm not sure how to go about that. :) BabyOwl

Belladonna	09 Jun 2003
I love this idea! I also would like to start with the Queens since that was previously suggested and I feel a bit overwhelmed by all of the court cards. It would be so nice to have the chance to go a little bit deeper by concentrating solely on the Queens, at least at first. My humble understanding of the role of the Queen in general is that of a mature woman. She is secure in her position and responsible. She has mastered certain qualities, or rather, has grown into them more fully than the page/princess has. She often represents the center of things. She is strong, graceful, confident, maybe because she is fully who she is and comfortable with it.

Ruby Red Slippers	09 Jun 2003
I too, think this is a great idea!!! Count me in on the discussion. I always learn so much here, and seeing different perspectives has been expanding for me....better the mind than the waist!!! :joke: I like the way you started off the theme, Moongold, with Rachel Pollack's definition as a starting point. Since I am an "association person" (free association accepted, also), Perhaps we could entertain discussion of famous women who possess(ed) the traits of each Queen. What do you think??? Ruby Red Slippers

Trogon	10 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold It was suggested in another thread that we have a discussion on the Queens as a group and I 'd like to see whether others are interested in doing this. Sounds like a good idea to me Moongold.

Moongold	10 Jun 2003
Well, how do we want to do this? Our own Thirteen has done some work on the Queens generally and then elaborated in terms of types of women who fit the mold. Here is her work: http://www.aeclectic.net/basics/queens.htm Here are some other interesting examples of similar work but, as you'll see, in very different domains :) http://tarotcanada.tripod.com/WomenApostles.html http://www.realmagick.com/articles/36/2236.html http://www.starfriends.com/NSQueens.htm I rather like Ruby’s idea of discussing the Queenly qualities of prominent or historic women so that we can flesh the boundaries out a little. What do you think? People could feel free to extemporize along the way as it occurs to them. So this could be a free and wide ranging discussion about how we understand and see the Tarot Queens in a very real way. We could intersperse the discussion with a mix of meditative, conceptual and practical ideas. Does this sound reasonable? We have the ideas of Rachel Pollack, Dan Staroff and Mary Greer above, and Thirteen's work to keep us connected to a framework but it would also be nice to leap out of that if it seems a good idea. What do you think? If this idea is acceptable, would someone like to commence?

catti	10 Jun 2003
queen of wands- Marie Curie pioneer woman scientist, modern magician queen of cups- Mother Theresa known for her tremendous compassion and giving queen of swords- Benazir Bhutto pioneer woman politician queen of pentacles- Madonna self proclaimed 'material girl' who is looking for her spiritual side i thought this going to sleep last night after reading the thread- please remember it is just free association. No in depth thinking went in to this. thank you for the thread moongold, i feel certain i will learn much

Baby Owl	10 Jun 2003
Not to confuse matters, but I thought I'd add Joan Bunning's keywords for the Queens into the mix: Queen of Wands: attractive, whole-hearted, energetic, cheerful, self-assured Queen of Cups: loving, tender-hearted, intuitive, psychic, spiritual Queen of Swords: honest, astute, forthright, witty, experienced Queen of Pentacles: nurturing, big-hearted, down-to-earth, resourceful, trustworthy SOURCE: http://www.learntarot.com/ BabyOwl

Moongold	10 Jun 2003
Can I speak about my Mother, who died 12 years ago now. Just a mix of indelible images. The Queen of Wands like energy with which she directed the operations in our quite large family of six noisy kids growing up in the bush with no power and only the most basic facilities. I think of Queen Wands and the candles and kerosene lanterns we had for power, and how I used to see her coming in the distance to kiss us good night surrounded in this soft glow. And there is Queen Pentacles in there too, with her passion for gardening and the capacity to make the most beautiful things out of nothing. Also the earthy and surprising sense of humour that just burst out some times and would surprise everyone coming from such a small and delicate woman. And then Queen Swords - the shining mind denied an education because of poverty but who introduced us to poetry and literature delightfully so that we would always have these beautiful things for company. Ah ....and another side of Queen Swords would emerge when it all got too much for her, and she would cut us down with the sharp scythes of anger and disappointment. And Queen Cups....her Pisces heart would overflow with emotion sometimes but it was such a fundamental, good and primaeval love that kept us all going in the hard times. fed us and pushed us unceremoniously into the world, laughing, convinced that we could make it. And all of these things are the Empress? My Mother adored Mary the Mother of God, much more than JC, and I would sometimes marvel at how deeply enshrined the feminine archetype is in our psyches. How important it was to her and how she died with this belief so close to her to the end.

Indigo_lady	10 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by catti queen of pentacles- Madonna self proclaimed 'material girl' who is looking for her spiritual side ok, the material girl song aside, could you elaborate a bit more on Madonna and the Queen of Pentacles because I'm not really getting it ;)

Belladonna	10 Jun 2003
I've always seen the Queen of Wands as being passionate, creative, warm, popular and the centre of things. People are attracted to her. A loyal friend. Extroverted. She's a good hostess, gives parties, dinners, events based in her home. Also I always think of the woman with the creative home businesses- making jams and jellies in her own kitchen to sell. The Queen of Swords, to me, is the strong, independant woman. Probably alone by choice, maybe somewhat of a feminist. Smart, witty, intelligent, sharp. Seemingly unemotional and detached. Cool and levelheaded. Good judge of character. Organized. The one you want around in an emergency or crises. The Queen of Cups is the emotional one. Openly and outwardly loving, nurturing, caring. She dreams big, hopes big, loves big. I think she has a lot of faith in the Divine and a strong intuition. The most mysterious of the Queens, she sees signs in everything (in a good way!) and her compassion for others is her philosophy of life. The Queen of Pentacles is sensual, beautiful and I think the most here and now. Pleasure, beauty, sex, food, gardening, animals, children. Laughter! She probably also has a good head for money, business, family matters and housing, but in a non-ambitious way. Sorry, I'm not any kind of historian... maybe I can give it a shot, though. Queen of Wands: (all I can think of is Steel Magnolias!) Queen of Swords: Hillary Clinton Queen of Cups: Oprah Queen of Disks: Marilyn Monroe

Baby Owl	10 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Can I speak about my Mother, who died 12 years ago now... Moongold, What a wonderful tribute to your dear mother. I wish I could have known her! I must confess I am having trouble coming up with famous people for the different Queens. A few thoughts that I'm not totally satisfied with: Queen of Wands: Martha Stewart Queen of Cups: Sonya Fitzpatrick (the "pet psychic") Queen of Swords: Judge Judy Queen of Pentacles: Laura Bush

Moongold	10 Jun 2003
Famous women? Queen of Wands: Jill Ker Conway, Bette Midler, Meryl Streep Queen of Swords: Bette Davis, Hillary Clinton Queen Pentacles: Queen Elizabeth II, Hazel Hawke (wife of former Ausralian Prime Minister) Queen Cups: Everywoman

Baby Owl	10 Jun 2003
Beginning with the Queen of Wands, what trait associated with this queen would you like to "try on" for one week? (A trait you do not currently have but would like to experience, if only temporarily.) For me...I think I would like to be seen as the sort who lights up a room, radiating warmth and energy. I've always been a bit of a wallflower, trying my best not to be noticed, yet I crave positive attention (go figure...) Baby Owl

punkangelgcm437	10 Jun 2003
I just read this spread and love the Queens idea. Moongold-I'm sorry to hear of your mommy's passing...altho it was 12 years ago. The things you said were beautiful and I'm sure would make her proud. Should we figure out what queen each of us are? I wouldn't know which one I am....hmmm.

catti	10 Jun 2003
madonna as q of pentacles...i guess i was thinking more the coins aspect...well she was a shrewd businesswoman in her affairs, she ( to me) is all about this world, this plane of existence.....it was just a free association thing...FEEL FREE to replace her with someone more appropriate, or tell me why you think it works or just doesnt fit .... it was just what came to mind at the time.... while washing dishes i thought about women artists and this is what came to mind: queen of wands- Freida Kahlo - very creative , always used rich 'warm'colour , magical style queen of cups- Mary Cassat -Impressionist, the mother /child figures she so often painted in pastel colors queen of pentacles- Georgia O'Keefe- thinking of her bone and sky period and just she seemed so grounded and earthy queen of swords- Annie Leibowitz- the camera being metal made me think of a sword and because her photos seem to 'cut' right into the image and reveal the person in her photo I dont know how much this is helping anyone but i must say i am having alot of fun daydreaming about who is what queen

Moongold	10 Jun 2003
Your suggestion is an interesting way of looking at the whole issue of Queens, BabyOwl. As I write a whole lot of questions are going through my mind about the Queens and we've all began a discussion that in some smal ways replicates the dense mass of ideas about the Queens. On the one hand we are often told that the Court cards represent people in readings and I guess that is one useful way of looking at them. Have a look at Thirteen's "Featured Reading" in Your Readings currently (Konraad's Past Lives) where she's used Court Cards in just this way. It is as though the Courts become characters in a reading of this kind, like characters in a novel. In other readings the Court can be seen more as qualities that people have or roles that they play in certain situations, and this is what I think you are suggesting that we look at now. Is that right? The Queen of Wands attribute that I would most want right at this minute is ENERGY. Hmmmm...... but what kind of energy? I am sitting at home at the moment doing some analytical work (Queen Swords)and need to put some energy and focus into my thinking. I also need some Queen Pentacles groundedness to remember that this task is my priority, not following my heart (Queen Cups)by doing Tarot work. :D. I guess I'm coming back to think of the feminine archetype and how the Queens fit into this. The female archetypal figures in Tarot are Empress, High Priestess, Strength, Justice, Temperance, Star and Moon. Would that be correct? These Major Arcana are abstractions, pure archetypes. The Queens as Courts are characteristic of how we act in the world. Does that mean that when they appear in readings, they speak to us more personally? Now I am getting myself confused :) Anyone want to step in here? I think I'm getting too analytical actually.

Baby Owl	10 Jun 2003
Moongold, I don't think you are being too analytical! I think what I was going for was just a way to "play with" the traits associated with the Queen cards in a way that might help me remember those traits in readings. When we try to choose a famous woman to represent one of the Queens, aren't we basically looking for a woman who has the traits associated with that Queen? And if I were reading for someone, I might say "Do you know a woman with these traits?" in an effort to see if the Queen represented an actual person in the querent's life. Sorry to confuse things! I'm not sure I've made myself any clearer! Baby Owl

celeste	11 Jun 2003
Whenever I think of who most personifies the Queen of Cups I think overwhelmingly of Diana,the Queen of Hearts. The other suits I need to think about some more.

allibee	11 Jun 2003
So do I Celeste, and how about the personification in the Queen of Swords as Queen Victoria ... see the Victoria Regina Deck, they have her spot on imho. The Queens I always see as the exoteric, lower caste sisters of the Empress, or maybe as her handmaidens. The Empress is the formative role and the Queens the active role. A.

Belladonna	11 Jun 2003
Moongold, I must have been typing when you posted about your mother!

Moongold	11 Jun 2003
Hi Belladonna, I posted about my Mother because I believe that the attributes of the Queens are present in all of us but we rarely acknowledge it. It is good and enjoyable to think if prominent women who have shown some of these attributes but they exist in some measure or other all around us :) It's too easy sometimes to think of ourselves as segmented. An action or thought might have many attributes or qualities at the one time. I guess sometimes I feel frustrated when we focus on Queen Swords or Queen Cups for example as if these cards were whole people with just that quality. It was interesting to see Thirteen's reading for Marion where the Court card was simply a character in the narrative. I saw a new way of using Court cards then. Take care :)

catti	11 Jun 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Moongold I posted about my Mother because I believe that the attributes of the Queens are present in all of us but we rarely acknowledge it. It is good and enjoyable to think if prominent women who have shown some of these attributes but they exist in some measure or other all around us :) That is a really good point, moongold, and for me is the crux of my problem dealing with the court cards...i dont know any woman who is a queen of ****. They all make up each woman to a greater or lesser extent. Even when i was doing the free association bit i was only dealing with the public face or works of the woman.When i see the Queen of Cups in the future position of a celtic cross reading ---do i say a loving woman will be come into your life---or do i say look to the emotional side of your nature to play a prominent role??? When there is a rev Queen of Swords in the outcome of a relationship spread to i say Discord, Troubles and divorce? or advise the querent to look out for an older woman causing trouble in the relationship..??The court cards always make me stumble in a reading I am going now to read Thirteens readings.

Baby Owl	11 Jun 2003
Catti, Your comment about seeing bits of each of the Queens in any one woman really makes sense to me. I do have trouble coming up with someone I know because no one I know embodies even the majority of the traits associated with a particular Queen! I took the liberty of copying some of Thirteen's comments about Queens, because I felt like I was not understanding what Moongold wanted me to see. Moongold, if the part you are talking about isn't there, please tell me what it is, okay? Quote: originally posted by Thirteen : In this spread, Marion is the Princess of Swords. Not the cooler Queen of Swords because she still has that heat of Aries... Queen/Cups: But then something very, VERY interesting happens. There's no indication of how, but Marion begins to have visions--she transforms (maybe thanks to some trauma?) from the glittering Queen of Staves, with social power, into the visionary Queen of Cups, with psychic power. Instead of being part of worldy beauty, she becomes a part of otherworldly beauty. I got very curious about what might have caused the transformation, so I laid down a clarification card over the Queen/Cups. I got Queen/Coins (or in this deck, Queen of "Sacred Circles"). In this deck, the image on that card is of a Native American grandmother, the full moon shining through the window, a tribal sheild of the phases of the moon on the wall behind her--she is watching over a baby. Which is exactly what I thought. The very physical, down-to-earth act of childbirth is what transformed our youthful Queen of Staves into a wise woman.

Belladonna	11 Jun 2003
Yes, I understand how it is too simple to characterise someone as being the Queen of Blank only. It is more like our actions may be motivated by a particular Queen at a particular time. b

Moongold	11 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Baby Owl Moongold, if the part you are talking about isn't there, please tell me what it is, okay? Hi BabyOwl, Ah.....I wasn't as clear as I could have been. Let me have another try :). The way we use cards can be influenced by the context of the reading. Thirteen speaks about this in her opening remarks about the Konraad spread. She makes the point that in this particular spread any of the cards can be taken literally. I think there were some excellent examples of this as she went through the reading. She was telling a story from the cards, a linear story. But her original point, or one of them, was that the Court cards can quite literally be people, not qualities alone, depending on the reading. Aside from Court cards, did you notice in the reading how Thirteen used graphic image, and literal and metaphoric meanings with some cards? The one that immediately comes to mind is the woman looking in the mirror. Can't remember the exact details but there are others. So we have have a number of possibilities. The Queens could actually represent people in readings and that's quite OK. And we can use them as creatively as did Thirteen in her reading when she seemed to do all three at once - image and meanings - a character changing from one state of being to another. The way we use the Queens can be as creative as we like and as our skills allow us to be, not just one dimensional. The stage (a lovely metaphor right now) or context is the determining factor. Is that any clearer, or am I up too early again? :)

Baby Owl	11 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold The way we use the Queens can be as creative as we like and as our skills allow us to be, not just one dimensional. The stage (a lovely metaphor right now) or context is the determining factor. Is that any clearer, or am I up too early again? :) Moongold, you make a whole lot more sense than I do when I'm "up early" LOL! Generally all I can say first thing in the morning is "toast? coffee?" Meanwhile, back at the Queens... Is the discussion we are having the sort of thing you had in mind for this thread? Just a general sort of "free for all" about the Queens? Or are you feeling that we (or I) am getting off track? (Sorry to be so dense...) If the context is the determining factor, how do we discuss the Queens out of context? I think I will be quiet for awhile and let others pick this thing up and run with it! :) Baby Owl

Moongold	11 Jun 2003
Hi Baby Owl, I didn't meant to lead the thread! I picked up a suggestion in another thread about the Queens as a group and wondered what would flow from it. It has been a kind of brainstorm and that seems good. If I was doing an essay on this I would begin with the feminine archetype and look at how it is represented throughout the tarot, including the role of the Queens. I'm not saying that we should do this here. :) I've been really interested in everything that people have to say. It is interesting that there are many discussions about the Queens but none at all about the Kings, a few about the Knights and almost none about any of the other Court cards. So the fascination seems to be with the Queens. They are used more often to represent women or some aspect of women or perceived female behaviour. So there is a perennial fascination with the feminine archetype.

Major Tom	12 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold The female archetypal figures in Tarot are Empress, High Priestess, Strength, Justice, Temperance, Star and Moon. Would that be correct? These Major Arcana are abstractions, pure archetypes. The Queens as Courts are characteristic of how we act in the world. Does that mean that when they appear in readings, they speak to us more personally? Now I am getting myself confused :) Anyone want to step in here? I think I'm getting too analytical actually. I think you're really on to something here. :) I might want to quibble about Temperance being a female archtype. :laugh: I'd go so far as to say that the Queens are characteristic of personality. Jmd has talked about courts as Myers-Briggs personality types. I could suggest two: Queen of Wands as ENFP and Queen of Swords as ENFJ. I would not expect any concensus on assignment of personality types. :laugh:

Baby Owl	13 Jun 2003
I would like to come back to a couple of things previously posted by Moongold: Quote: Mary Greer said: While Queens and Kings are equally skilled, the Queens have fully developed talents that are personal and interpersonal and they focus on understanding the deeper underlying meanings of things. As a Queen of Cups or Pentacles you are caring, nurturing and comforting. As Queen of Wands or Swords you are directing, teaching. observing and implementing, Queens accomplish things. They give advice. Queens are most like the Empress. They are related to the element of water. Quote: Moongold wrote: The Queens as Courts are characteristic of how we act in the world. It would seem that The Empress (like other major arcana cards) is an archetype, whereas the Queens show how this archetype manifests itself in our lives emotionally (cups), mentally (swords), physically (pentacles), and spiritually (wands). Perhaps we can start by examining the qualities of The Empress as they "fit" into these four areas. I have to admit I see the cups and pentacles in The Empress, but not so much the wands or swords. Anyone else? Baby Owl

Moongold	14 Jun 2003
Yes, this is a really interesting discussion. The Empress? Isn’t it interesting that she is III in the Major Arcana? She is the centre of everything, the generative and creative force. Without her essentially, nothing happens. She is the cosmic multi-tasker, so like women in every day life :). As Irene Gad says: Quote: The empress is the guardian of the generative forces of nature; she is concerned with abundance and harmony on the physical plane, acceptance of the material universe, being embodied, passivity, feeling, emotion, concreteness, grounding. The mother must shape her children, but she must also set them free. The difficulty of her task increases as long as she remains tied to them, and carries the burden of their destinies with her. The universal principle of receptivity, which the Empress represents, must be understood as an inspiring and generating openness to that which is struggling to emerge within as well as without, to the transpersonal and impersonal as well as the personal. The Empress is much more human than the High Priestess. If one sees the Empress in this way, then it is quite easy to understand the pivotal function of her role in the cosmic scheme of things, and it is a lot easier to also see ALL the Queens as acting out some aspect of the Empress in the concrete world. Do you agree, BabyOwl? When I think of it this way, I have no difficulty in seeing Queen Swords ( Water of Air) and Queen Wands (Water of Fire) as representing aspects of the Empress. I think we need to see images of Empress other than those in the RWS deck to really understand the hard edge to Empress. She is Earth Mother, sure, but you don't get to be in that position without what we understand to be the hard edge - intellectual strength as well as intuition. These two qualities together are dynamic. The Mother of all Creation has to be a pretty good thinker, feeler, creator, actor and director. We are forced to use devices of language, thought and metaphor to represent these concepts so I understand now where the Queens fit in, I think. When we discuss them constantly, as we seem to do, we are reflecting the manifestation of the feminine archetype in this world, and that is really fascinating and inherently polemic material. Major Tom, I think I probably slipped up with the inclusion of Temperance as part of the feminine archetype. I just think of it Temperance that way but academically I’m not correct. :) Many blessings

Moongold	14 Jun 2003
As I was posting the last comment I wondered why I associated the Queens with the Empress and not with the other cards also connected with the feminine archetype. Some of this is undoubtedly to do with existing mystical frameworks. In the Tree of Life, the Queens are headquarted in Binah, the sphere of "femaleness", receptivity and the origin of form and structure. The Empress is on the path between Binah and Chokmah (masculine energy). Simplistically she connects the two, and things just flow through her. I think this is the key perhaps. The Queens are one way through this energy flowsin to the real world. There are strong symbolic connections between the Empress and the High Priestess but the High Priestess is clearly more removed from earthly life. :) Both women are crowned, enthroned and both carry symbols of fertility. The Empress has pomegranites and the symbol of Venus. High Priestess has corn. The Empress has running water and High Priestess has blue as the predominent colour, symbolizing water. The High Priestess also has lunar symbols and the scrolls of wisdom, emphasizing her spiritual, intuitive, mysterious role. Star, Strength and Justice seem to have female figures with perhaps not as much symbolic content, although that is arguable depending on what deck you have. I must do some research to find out why these cards were given feminine attributes.

Baby Owl	14 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold The Empress is much more human than the High Priestess. If one sees the Empress in this way, then it is quite easy to understand the pivotal function of her role in the cosmic scheme of things, and it is a lot easier to also see ALL the Queens as acting out some aspect of the Empress in the concrete world. Do you agree, BabyOwl? When I think of it this way, I have no difficulty in seeing Queen Swords ( Water of Air) and Queen Wands (Water of Fire) as representing aspects of the Empress. I think we need to see images of Empress other than those in the RWS deck to really understand the hard edge to Empress. She is Earth Mother, sure, but you don't get to be in that position without what we understand to be the hard edge - intellectual strength as well as intuition. These two qualities together are dynamic. The Mother of all Creation has to be a pretty good thinker, feeler, creator, actor and director. I see what you mean about The Empress being human and about having a harder edge (fire, air). I still get bogged down by keywords for The Empress in various sources (not just RW). I have trouble seeing beyond the Earth Mother, fertility (pentacles) , and the "loving, warm woman" , emotional fulfillment (cups). I'm working on it! :)

Moongold	14 Jun 2003
And how you manage to hold so many things within yourself, dear BabyOwl........woman, published writer, student, mother, wife and the many other things you undoubtedly are:) Bright blessings

catti	15 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Star, Strength and Justice seem to have female figures with perhaps not as much symbolic content, although that is arguable depending on what deck you have. I must do some research to find out why these cards were given feminine attributes. [/b] just some musings....the star(18) and strength (9)are both cards of nature and in my rws based decks are shown in more or less the same position. its like one is night and one is day but the same woman....justice (11) and high priestess (2) are both seated woman of power, authority and (to me) represent structured things for me at least the Empress is THE feminine archetype and the other cards facets of her Then the queens are these archetypes moving about in the world, the personality traits. I am having trouble articulated what i want to say about the queens and the female archetype...its late here and i think i should try again in the morning

Moongold	15 Jun 2003
Very interesting, Catti. I've struggled with all this as well, not being psychologically trained i.e. never having studied this stuff. Do you think these four are faces of the feminine archetype? What is it about Empress which distinguishes her from High Priestess, Strength, Justice and Star? Perhaps it is the creativity aspect, the fact that she generates everything - life itself - and we humans identify so strongly with these powers. Ah…. a deep sigh at the wonder of it: sexuality, fertility, life, nurturing, and growth – from human life to nature – Mother Nature. That is the key, is it not – Mother :) The others don’t mother and nurture. They do all sorts of other wonderful things but not that key thing. They are all strong, creative and profound in their own way but they don’t mother us. High Priestess is about intuition, mystery, eternal knowledge. Star is Empress’ daughter (Demeter and Persephone). She is about liberation, inspiration, and hope. Strength is about immense psychic strength – it is spiritual more than physical. Justice is about balance, action and work. There is much more to them than this of course. The most obvious commonality between all of them in Tarot is that they are all female figures. I wish I knew more of this history and how they were seen as female. I have no difficulty with attributing these qualities to the feminine archetype. These archetypal figures have just overflowed into art and literature since time immemorial. What role have men had in articulating the archetypes themselves and the Tarot symbolism that represents them? Some decks are not so obvious in depicting their feminine characteristics. As I speak some of the old, deep feelings about labeling, deviation, scapegoating and witch hunting are stirring because of the misinterpretation of some of these wonderful qualities at certain times in history. Temperance where are you, with your asexual, wonderful cosmic balancing powers? To get back to your question, I think the key distinguishing characteristic of Empress is her role in sex, creativity and nurturing. These are fundamental to our survival and to our mythology. The Human race could survive – madly and brutally – without the others. Empress is fundamental to survival. I’m not sure that this makes her THE archetype but rather a pivotal part of it. What do you think? Quote: Carl Jung Everything in the unconscious seeks outward manifestation, and the personality too desires to evolve out of its unconscious condition and to experience itself as a whole

Belladonna	15 Jun 2003
I just wanted to get back to the idea of the Empress being like Earth mother; easy to identify the Queen of Cups and of Disks with her, but not so easy the Swords or Wands? I think the trick here is to come to Cape Breton this winter to experience the "harder edge" of Mother Earth! It is easy to forget that the harshness of cold winters, snow, ice, downpours, hurricanes, and in other places, monsoons, earthquakes, volcanoes, desert sun and heat, are all an essential part of how Mother earth regulates, manages, and creates the abundance that we normally associate with her. (To say nothing of scorpions, tarantulas, poison ivy, cobras, or the way a pack of wolves will sometimes bring down the weak, sick, or old animals of a herd. Natural, but not pretty!) I also have a habit of associating the suits, or elements of the tarot heavily with the seasons of the year, times of the day, landscapes, and all the correspondances that go with them. Sorry to go off on such a tangent, but I thought it might resolve the issue of how the Queen of Swords and Wands can fit into the image of the Empress.

Inana	15 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold To get back to your question, I think the key distinguishing characteristic of Empress is her role in sex, creativity and nurturing. These are fundamental to our survival and to our mythology. The Human race could survive – madly and brutally – without the others. Empress is fundamental to survival. I’m not sure that this makes her THE archetype but rather a pivotal part of it. What do you think? I'm fascinated by what im reading on this thread. About this i think you've hit the point here. People relates eassily the Empress to the feminine archetype because of her mothering aspect. She gives life and this is the first thing mankind noticed about the feminine aspects or values opposed to the male aspects. Just think about those paleolithic venusses sculptures with big stomachs and breasts but withouth faces. Anyways, my question here is... we all recognisse The Empress this way, but who represents the main masculine arechetype in the tarot? The Emperor? And whats his main characteristic? To preserve? Is there any possibility of this two figures being the only ones strongly sexuated roles in the tarot? I mean, Justice can be seen both like feminine or masculine aspects, and same goes for other cards, maybe with the exception of the Hierophant and the High Priestess. Mmmh well, i have to think a bit more about it. About the queens... Like someone said before, i can relate eassily the Queens of cups and pentacles with the Empress but is more dificult to do so with the Queens of Wands and Swords. Maybe they relate better with the High Priesstes aspects? Ok, i wanted to say lot of things but need to put my mind in order first. Chaos of ideas going around...

Inana	15 Jun 2003
Belladonna, i was posting at the same time. I like the the idea of relating suits with the seasons. Maybe that can help to relate Queen of Wands and Swords with the Empress.So.... it would be something like this? Q Swords--> Winter Q Pentacles--> Spring Q Wands--> Summer Q Cups--> Autumn And then think about the traditional related aspects? Winter- Preservation, order, reflexion time, organization. Saving and administring the harvest. Spring- Growing, seeding, enjoying, initiating, working. Summer- Enjoying, having fun, party time. But also suffering lack of water. Autumn- Harvesting, obtaining fruits, feeling melancholy and starting to get ready for winter. Well.. not sure if this is what you were suggesting, and im not sure about the pentacles and cups placements. Maybe them fit better inversed. Anyways... interesting.

catti	15 Jun 2003
inana---i would put the seasons like this Spring- cups Summer-wands Autumn- coins Winter- swords why? well alot of it is it just feels right, but when i think about it my suits are drawn and colored like that spring is the begining, the east, the dawn summer is the midpoint, the solstice, the south, midday autumn is the harvest, the west, twilight winter is the time of those icy cold winds, midnight ,the north ok i now that some of these correspondences are contradictory as in the east usually is associated with swords and the north with the coins but the world as i know it is not a neat little package so in a way the contradictions make sense ;-) As far as the queens go, seeing the queen of wands as an extension of the Empress isnt to difficult for me , maybe because im so visually oriented but the suit itself comes from mother nature. The most challenging to me is the swords, and yet the point has been made about the 'other' side of nature. hurricanes,earthquakes, drought all examples of the fury of mother nature. Or to go back to myth , remember when Demeter mourned her daughter and the people of the Earth learned of the seasons. moongold, i am not avoiding the question :-) just still working on the answer

Moongold	15 Jun 2003
Swords represent the element of air AIR which translates to trauma and pain in the RWS Tarot and clones but not necessarily in other decks. I am beginning to think if should be mandatory for all Tarot readers to have a non RWS deck so that they can be exposed to different approaches :D In the Sephiroth Tarot, for example, Swords represent pure enlightenment. If you thought of Swords this way I don't think you'd have any difficulty in thinking of the Empress. She would have to have a good mind. Besides, even with my abysmal knowledge of archetypes I think there can't be perfect archetypes. There must be a downside, the possibility of excess. Are we not fully human and do we not make monumental mistakes from time to time? We are deserving of love anyway. Nature needs hurricanes, snowstorms, tidal waves and so on. They are natural and often serve a good purpose. Can we gently drift away from the RWS deck? I admire Pixie Colman Smith but her drawings reflected the issues of her time, which may not be always be appropriate now. Perhaps I could better say that there are other interpretations that would be liberating to explore.

Moongold	15 Jun 2003
Dear Friends, Please use your Queen Swords skills (minds and thinking) and your Queen Cups disposition (mercy) to challenge me on this :) Most people have the RWS and like decks and those are some of the associations: i.e. the hard times, the hard dilemma, the hard decisions. Although they are hotly debated here at times, they will probably remain a standard because they are what people learn. I used to get the Queen Swords quite a lot in my early days in Tarot (it still is very early - just over a year - and less than many of you) and grew to fear her appearance. Of that necessity, I instinctively explored her meaning for me. That was when I discovered the significance of the "elements" and numerology in understanding the cards, and also began to explore other decks. The first really different one was the Osho Zen which renames Swords "Clouds" and calls the equivalent of the Queen "Morality". The next one was the Shining Tribe which renames the suit "Birds" and also renames the Queen, "Gift". I love the Shining Tribe. It is a little more inclusive and gentle than RWS. I'd like to share a little of what Rachel Pollack says about her Queen Swords - Gift of Birds. Quote: The sword in traditional Tarot decks symbolize analysis and cutting through confusion, but also conflict and emotional pain. The bird-headed shaman on this Gift of Birds holds a feathered shield to defend himself against mental aggression, The feathers imply a defence that depends more on clear understanding than force or anger. But strength of mind and ability to argue are not the ultimate gift of the suit of Air. The flute floating to the ground shifts the birds from analysis to art, from aggression to inspiration...............

Moongold	15 Jun 2003
More thoughts :) The Queens hold the intelligence of nature, the truth of the heart and soul, an understanding of natural instincts and the energy and capacity to act in the world. Do we tend to see these skills as more intuitive than intelligent and therefore more female? I see this understanding as highly intelligent, wise and conscious. I don't have any trouble in seeing Queen Swords and Queen Wands as embodying some qualities of Empress but all the Queens may also embody aspects of the other Majors: High Priestess, Star, Strength and Justice. So possibly the Queens act out many aspects of the feminine archetype in the world, not just that part of it represented by the Empress. I hope I'm not repeating myself here. The beginning of this thread is so far away, I can't remember what has been said and what is thought. For example, I may have to use my intellectual skills(Queen Swords) and intuitive understanding (HP and Queen Cups) to mediate a conflict at work. I would have a strategy (Justice and Queen Wands) to make sure fairness prevails and a particular person is not scapegoated. This is a genuine task awaiting me this week, I guess the idea is that the Queens are agents of the Feminine Archetype in her totality i.e. as typified by Empress, High Priestess, Strength, Justice, Star. Many blessings

catti	15 Jun 2003
i think you are really onto something...i am still haveing problems putting all of this into words but when i read your last post i had these 'flashes' of recognition....i have a medieval scapini deck , it is based of the visconti deck but the artist departs drastically in the minors....all that aside i always loved the court cards, the queens are all very differnet looking women...the queen of swords is tall , blonde and angular, sort of aryan looking and has this very 'knowing' look on her face...the queen of wands is vouptous and red headed and much more inviting, the queen of cups is based on the aphrotide painting by bottecelli, and the queen of coins is a turbaned heavy set woman throwing cons up into the air , with a picture of twins breastfeeding a mother behind her and a plate of drugs, wine and victuals in front of her...these court cards always worked so much the better for me because they are not the typical cartoony stereotype person thaat always seems too be int the rws and varient decks

Baby Owl	15 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold So possibly the Queens act out many aspects of the feminine archetype in the world, not just that part of it represented by the Empress. Yes, I agree with this! My original post mentioning The Empress as "the archetype" was based on Thirteen's "Tarot Basics." She says "the elements of Queens is water and...they are a reflection of the Empress." I then added Moongold's comment about the Queens being "characteristic of how we act in the world." But I do think it might be wise to include other feminine archetypes as well. WolfChild P.S. More about seasons and suits can be found here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7295

Moongold	16 Jun 2003
There are articles about how to use the Court cards around the Internet and there are even a few books about it but I’ve always had a lack of confidence in interpreting these cards. People seem to develop their own ways of reading with them. . It’s been interesting to see the number of discussions that people have about the Queen of Swords and the Queen of Cups particularly. These two cards seem to touch something in the psyches of many people. I’ve learned a lot through this discussion. Certainly I see the Queens very differently now - in a deeper way - and would be able to give a more meaningful interpretation if one of them appeared in a reading. I’ve done readings for two separate people in the last six months where three and then four Queens appeared at once. I am going to read through a whole lot of other material now and probably do some reading about the history of Tarot so that I can understand more of the context. I know people say not to read books but they do open up doors for me. It would be good to keep posting here if any new ideas occur. Thank you all for coming this far :) and I hope we can continue in some way.

catti	16 Jun 2003
this has been a really interesting closer look at major arcana cards i thought i was familiar with, and in following the 'magician as a husband ' thread i started looking at the male /female archtypes as well as how this 'trickles down' to the Court Cards. i have a question about astrological correlations: is there a set type of correspondences for the court cards? i am familiar with the elemental correspondances that we use to help us identify the mood and temper of the court cards but i was wondering if we can also put 'signs' on them.

Baby Owl	16 Jun 2003
I think different people have assigned different astrological signs to the courts. Here is one set I came across: King of Wands: Aries Queen of Wands: Leo Page of Wands: Sagittarius King of Cups: Cancer Queen of Cups: Scorpio Page of Cups: Pisces King of Swords: Libra Queen of Swords: Aquarius Page of Swords: Gemini King of Pentacles: Taurus Queen of Pentacles: Virgo Page of Pentacles: Capricorn Baby Owl

Moongold	16 Jun 2003
Hi Catti, Baby Owl and others, Yes there is! Burger and Fiebig Complete Book of Tarot Spreads give the following astrological assignations: 1. Aries: Queen of Wands 2. Taurus: King of Pentacles (Prince of Disks) 3. Gemini: Kight of Swords 4. Cancer: Queen of Cups 5. Leo: King of Wands (Prince of Wands) 6. Virgo: Knight of Pentacles (Knight of Disks) 7. Libra: Queen of Swords 8. Scorpio: King of Cups 9. Sagittarius: Knight of Wands 10. Capricorn: Queen of Pentacles (Queen of Disks) 11. Aquarius: King of Swords (Prince of Swords) 12. Pisces: Knight of Cups The names in brackets are the titles used in the Crowley Thoth Tarot. There are some idiosyncracies in the Thoth correspondences. Thoth does not have Kings and I think the Knight performs that role but I'm not sure. A Thoth expert could tell you. There is a very interesting article on Tarot Passages about the correspondences between MBTI (Myers Briggs Type Indicator) categories and the Court Cards that is worth a look just for something different. Just out of interest, I did an exercise in the book by Faith Javane and Dusty Bunker Numerology and the Divine Triangle and found that my life lesson number corresponds to the King of Swords with the Queen of Swords as a temporary vibration. Not sure what all that means actually. If I was to be typecast, I always felt a bit like Queen Swords but really like Queen Wands. My astrological association is Knight Wands. More identity problems :D? Many blessings and thanks for your company

divinerguy	16 Jun 2003
Here's some nominations for modern queens - Cups - Meg Ryan, Susan Sarandon, pleasant, more love than common sense Swords - Maggie Thatcher, Hillary Clinton, no-nonsense women Wands - Coretta Scott King, Mother Teresa, honor, loving spirit Pentacles - Oprah, Martha Stewart, creative, wealthy, moody

Belladonna	24 Jun 2003
Moongold, I hope I am not diverging too much here. I wanted to get back for a moment to the Queen of Swords and I had something I wanted to share with you. In my wiccan tradition, Swords belong to the east, to air, to spring time, new beginnings and the dawn. Also, the Sword or athame is associated with the first two of the eight sabbats of the year- Imbolc and Ostara. At Imbolc, I invoke the spirit of Bride into my "circle." Bride, represents first and foremost inspiration. The first tingling in the mind of an idea, a vision, an awakening of the spirit, the awareness of the self from the primordial stew of all that is. By the time Ostara roles around, I am ready to invite Athena into my circle who represents the more mature qualities of air. Air come to fruition. The ability to distinguish, determine, deliniate, focus, decide. She is a master strategist. The owl is her companion and together they see all, know all. She is wisdom, art, and civilization. Impartiality and justice. She is intelligence unswayed by emotion.

The Queens thread was originally posted on 09 Jun 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.