Talking 'bout the Devil

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Jun 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Indigo_lady	21 Jun 2003
I was going through www.lotustarot.com card meanings and I found this passage about the Devil "positive associations with this tarot card: permanance, commitment (...) The Devil is not all bad, if marriage or commitment to a relationship is under consideration and this card falls in a favourable position in a reading The Devil is a good omen" And I don't really understand it Where does the link between the Devil and commitment come from ??? What would be a "favourable position" as the one they talk about ???? Anyone care to help out?

HudsonGray	21 Jun 2003
It helps to check other sources on a card's meaning, when something seems 'off' or just doesn't make sense. Here's 13's basics take on the Devil: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/basics/devil.html And Learntarot's take on it: http://www.learntarot.com/maj15.htm The Devil is about internal things, some good, some bad. Things inside that are ruling you, that haven't changed, deep held ideas & behaviors. I can see commitment being a deeply held thing, but as to what's favorable in a reading, well, that depends on the spread and what's around the Devil card.

Indigo_lady	21 Jun 2003
I've read different sources with interpretations But I've never read one that related the Devil positively to commitment (unless now obsession is commitment, but I still see that difficult to understand) I don't think interpretations are written in stone I just don't see where this interpretation comes from, so I can understand it or how people come to that conclusion Don't worry, I'm not saying "IT CANNOT BE COMMITMENT BECAUSE IT CAN'T" .. I just want to know "why it can be commitment ?" ;)

Thirteen	21 Jun 2003
Yes, I think the Devil can be interpeted as a relationship committment--one where the two people were so deeply into each other that almost nothing else exists in their lives. We're talking Bonny and Clyde--joined at the hip, live together, die together, relationship. More the sort of thing you see among high school teens obsessed with their boyfriend/girlfriend. I suppose we've all known couples like this. Almost never apart, fiercely loyaly to each other, will do anything to stay together, will do anything for each other. I'm not sure if it's always healthy; you can lose yourself in another person. But I'd only be really worried if (1) I was reading for teens, because they can do really stupid things in order to be together (re: Romeo and Juliet!) or, (2) this interpetation applied to only ONE of the two in the couple. That's where you get either the stalker, or the girl (or guy) enslaved to her man (his woman). Giving them all their money, lying, cheating, stealing, even contract killing for them--and then when go to jail the man or woman they did all this for finds another lover. But it certainly has permanance. I think a more positive interpetation, if relating to ONE person, would be committment to a project, to making something happen, even to making a marriage a success. That goes well with the Capricorn aspect of the Devil. Climb any mountain. But they need to be warned not to make this their whole life. They'll go overboard trying to get to the top and never smell the roses along the way.

allibee	22 Jun 2003
As always, dependant on question, surrounding cards etc., but there are committments we can associate with the Devil that are not so internal aswell. The dreaded 'mortgage' yoke around a persons neck. As in taking on an even bigger debt than you can really manage because you really want 'that' property that is a bit more upmarket. Keeping up with the 'Jones', when you can't afford to. On a material level then we can see there is a warning to be reasonable in your committments. The knock on effects can spiral out of control. A debt - on whatever level - can be seen as a committment which smacks of permanence. On the other hand, getting a mortgage is a very positive step for a couple embarking on a life together and getting their first home. Just to remember this little warning that comes with it. A.

LittleWing	22 Jun 2003
the devil could represent a workaholic ...... (this is commitment!) ..... can't tear themselves away ...... slave to the grind!!!!

G.I.R.	22 Jun 2003
I find this funny because of my signiture. I don't completely understand the positive correlation, but I could unerstand it being a symbol of primal urges and instinct and lust. Also if the card is from the card's point of view, The devil is known to be smart sneaky powerful controling happy care-free seductive hard-headed etc. Really now that I think about it, the devil has quite a few good features from his own point of view. In the Vampire Tarot, The Devil is a very big symbol of sexual passion which could be a part of a relationship comitmet. I dont know.

Belladonna	25 Jun 2003
I tend to associate co-dependant relationships, addiction, self-deception, "shoulds" and guilt with the Devil. However, it depends on the deck. For instance, the devil in the Buckland Romani deck is a mischievous little imp who looks like she's trying to stir up s*** just to see what will happen. And the Pan figure in the Wheel of Change deck would represent the exact opposite. Joy, fun, mirth, celebration, abundance and liberation. I think the Devil is the trickiest card in the deck and that's the way it should be! But in terms of viewing the Devil positively in terms of a relationship, sometimes I think that when the Devil comes up reversed, it can indicate a relationship in which the bonds of co-dependance have been thrown off, self-deception has been replaced with honesty, addictions are being conquered.

Alex	29 Jun 2003
projective identification or as post-moderns like to name it, "co-dependency", or "enabling". Alex.

Indigo_lady	12 Jul 2003
Thank you guys for all your answers SO I guess the thing with the Devil is that it stands for some kind of bondage And within the correct venue it can be mellowed or toned down to commitment (cards opposing its somewhat psycho obsessive or just negative characteristics) But indeed sexual passion and codependency are two very good words to keep in mind when thinking about this card You know who I just thought of in the Devil... There is this kind of guy I tend to run into. I say they are looking for Jesus. Not literally of course. Taken to an extreme they are the emotional/energetic vampires that suck the life out of you, but sometimes they are just guys looking for some sort of salvation, or something to hold on to. They might have problems, or just internal demons (no relation to the devil in the card) and they wand someone that they can *depend* on, that becomes their cane for walking around. But they won't let go of that cane, they won't let it go away from then. And as much as they can love that person who has become their cane they don't want them to evolve, because then they would leave them behind, they might pretend in the outside, but in the inside they don't want their partner to be better... I don't know if I make much sense here, but if you've met people like this you'll recognise them... they're not bad... they're just, well I don't know, saying screwed up is too harsh, lets just say that they still need to experience a lot in order to let go of those dirty instincts... I feel them as coyotes (the negative movie image of them..)

RainbowFire	05 Aug 2003
I actually found the Devil card spoke a lot to me. I'll copy my personal notes onto here sometime if y'all like!!! Jane Struthers writes in the Destiny Tarot... "[devil] can mean unbreakable bonds... so is surprisingly a good omen for marriage!" As Thirteen said - this isn't necessarily going to mean a healthy relationship. Perhaps a teenage-type obsessive one. This card probably meant a lot to me because, being a teenager, I find myself with obsessive crushes only too often. But it meant a lot of other things too. I always relate the card to the 7 deadly sins! Thing is... if I get the devil card, I aknoledge my enslavement etc, but is the card saying defeat it or cope with it?

Elle	05 Aug 2003
It might be just alerting you to the possibility of these elements in your perssonality that you need to work on/live with/work around/recognize. Warmest, Elle

Baiano19	05 Aug 2003
I´ve had a reading about 5 hours ago and she said that the devil meant a big change, like death. Never heard of that interpretation before.

full deck	06 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen . . . I think a more positive interpetation, if relating to ONE person, would be committment to a project, to making something happen, even to making a marriage a success. That goes well with the Capricorn aspect of the Devil. Climb any mountain. But they need to be warned not to make this their whole life. They'll go overboard trying to get to the top and never smell the roses along the way. Yes, like a person who becomes a Starcraft champion and wins 20,000 dollars but has nothing else and certainly does not eat right either, due to all those late-night, long games that occur almost every night. Ouch. I've never associated the "Devil" with anything good in of itself because it's main aspect is about the loss of objectivity and the binding of one's self to the impermanent (klipot, husk) -- "evil" at it's worst. I suppose the "devil" is, at best, "satan": the tester and one is always better for having passed the test.

Alex	07 Aug 2003
The way I see it, for you at least, it's about "um baiano em São Paulo". Too much traffic, too much air polution, little enjoyment of life. Run away_ to Bahia. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Baiano19 I´ve had a reading about 5 hours ago and she said that the devil meant a big change, like death. Never heard of that interpretation before. EDITED TO ADD: Actually, I've heard of such interpretation, that it may signify a big change, depending on the cards surrounding it. Mostly, people who used the surrounding cards to decide on a card's dignity, may interpret the Devil as a big change when the surrounding cards are all "good cards", or all "bad cards".

Baiano19	07 Aug 2003
heheh não so baiano, eu usei esse nickname por usar e acabou pegando. Eu tirei o carro e o sol, tem um outro topic sobre minha primeira consulta, depois vc da uma olhada.Alias da onde vc he?

Diana	07 Aug 2003
I beg your pardon? Please translate.........

paulo32	07 Aug 2003
Hello Diana The baiano19 is saying that is not from a place on brasil and is thinking that Alex speak portuguese,but i think alex is onlly a travel and don´t speak portuguese. I fact i´m gonna say it to him now that: Ó baiano19 olha apenas voce e eu é que falamos portugues neste forum. Mas voce é realmente de onde afinal ? xau paulo

isthmus nekoi	07 Aug 2003
another kind of commitment.... is the sort that has nothing to w/the person(s) themselves - but a commitment from the external/material world. Responsibilities for things you might not want to be responsible for. In a relationship, this might mean a couple wants to split, but responsibilities over joint assets (say if you started a business together) etc are binding them together.

Baiano19	07 Aug 2003
sao paulo ,capital...vc he d portugal neh?

Alex	07 Aug 2003
Now, that's a good definition of me. Quote: Originally posted by paulo32 Hello Diana i think alex is onlly a travel and don´t speak portuguese. Baiano, I grew up in Rio de Janeiro, for most part. I also lived in São Paulo and Minas Gerais, while in Brazil. I'm Carioca by definition, and by heart. You said your other cards were The Sun and The Chariot, and I suppose there were only majors in your spread? You can post your throw in the forum "my readings" and ask for oppinions there. Cheers Alex.

paulo32	08 Aug 2003
Hello Yes i´m from portugal but i know all brasil baiano19. S.Paulo is the city of to mutch confusion and also is the business city of brasil. I love the nordest :fortaleza and Natal, but not salvador. Salvador is the mystic city on brasil, the city of candoblé, Orichas, etc in fact we are talking about that on the post :Voodoo (Santeria) Ritual for Dressing & Baptizing Tarot Cards. I think you should read it. Alex so you lived in two countrys. That´s good because you can learn in two cultures. bye paulo

fairyhedgehog	08 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Baiano19 heheh não so baiano, eu usei esse nickname por usar e acabou pegando. Eu tirei o carro e o sol, tem um outro topic sobre minha primeira consulta, depois vc da uma olhada.Alias da onde vc he? OK, from here on in I've lost the plot ;) Please could someone translate for me? It feels very excluding to have people chatting away in a language I don't understand :( love and light fh

paulo32	08 Aug 2003
Hello Ok i´m gonna translate and never speak Portuguese on the forum again. heheh não so baiano, eu usei esse nickname por usar e acabou pegando. He is not from a place on brasil (Baia de Salvador), and he is using the nick baiano for no reazon. Eu tirei o carro e o sol, tem um outro topic sobre minha primeira consulta, depois vc da uma olhada.Alias da onde vc he? And he is talking about the first spread that he made and you can read all it on their post : I´ve just had my first consult with a tarot reader... That´s all Bye paulo

Diana	08 Aug 2003
Thanks Paulo! :) By the way, one of our members, anjocoxo, has a web-site in Portuguese and there is a forum there as well (just needs more members to get it going!) http://www.tarotlandia.web.pt/ But of course, if you join there, this doesn't mean you are to spend less time on Aeclectic! We would miss you and your wonderful questions that make us think so hard. You will just have to find time for both forums.

paulo32	08 Aug 2003
Well Diana I fact i´m gonna be away from the forum because i live today to Cadiz on Spanne for summer holidays. Somme questions that i made on the forum are to give me somme ideias, because i´m writting a book about tarot. I also participate on others foruns but they are about stock market, and computers. But i will return. Has you say it on frech. Au revoir bye paulo

fairyhedgehog	08 Aug 2003
Thank you for translating paulo :) I hope you have a good time in Spain and that we will see you in here again soon. As Diana has said you have given us some very thought-provoking questions, and we'll miss you while you're away.

paulo32	08 Aug 2003
Thanks fairyhedgehog

Alex	08 Aug 2003
Sometimes, just letting people do whatever they feel like they need to do for a second_ even if one feels excluded_pays off on the long run. No one was going to die because a paragraph or less which, by the way, had been translated already, by a third party Alex.

anjocoxo	08 Aug 2003
sim, porque no fundo somos todos amigos, certo? (yes, because in the end we are all friends, right?) ;) Anjo eddited to add: I usually don't speak portuguese here, today was just the exception enjoy your holidays, paulo

fairyhedgehog	08 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex Sometimes, just letting people do whatever they feel like they need to do for a second_ even if one feels excluded_pays off on the long run. True, true :) But then again, I was just explaining how I felt and asking for clarification. No big deal, really ...

fairyhedgehog	08 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by anjocoxo sim, porque no fundo somos todos amigos, certo? (yes, because in the end we are all friends, right?) Yes indeed :) :) :)

Baiano19	08 Aug 2003
Sory about writing in portuguese, i did cause it wasn´t too imporatant. Btw, thanks diana for the link.

catti	09 Aug 2003
so i just used a 6 card spread from Divinationsystems called Annikins Bridge 1 where you are 2 where you are going 3 4 5 how you will get there 6 what will support you my 6 card - the devil! all the surrounding cards were "fortunate"ones and firemaiden in a recent thread pointed out how channeling the passion of the devil makes for good artistry...so i think i would like to put a pagan bit in here and say that the devil card gets a bad rap in much the same way Tarot in general does by narrow minded christianity. when seen as Pan rather than satan, the devil card will still carry caution but be a generally happier card. Rather than the "i dont like that card" shock i get sometimes from people when they see it in a reading ( on my Morgan greer deck it is an UGLY card- green with a fly and a horned demon) so how can the devil support me on my path: hmm....acknowleging my hedonistic traits? focusing those wild passions into something postitive? binding myself to responsiblility in the material world? this is just a few things that come to mind. i dont like putting the label Bad Card on any of them. sometimes things are fortunate , sometimes they are less fortunate. Even a reading with less fortunate cards can be eye opening and help you get through that bad time. catti

Frequency	12 Aug 2003
I interpret the devil card as representing your base instincts and desires.

Aun	12 Aug 2003
What does the image on the card tells you? I think this is the main reference you should go after... the tarot always respects your views, as long as you commit to them. Also, never loose site of the differences between the meanings that are inherent to each deck.... Peace, Aun

Umbrae	12 Aug 2003
I went to the crossroad Fell down on my knees I went to the crossroad Fell down on my knees Asked the Lord above "Have mercy now, Save poor Bob, if you please" "Crossroad Blues" - ROBERT JOHNSON Quote: "If you want to learn how to make songs yourself, you take your guitar and your go to where the road crosses that way, where a crossroads is. Get there be sure to get there just a little ' fore 12 that night so you know you'll be there. You have your guitar and be playing a piece there by yourself…A big black man will walk up there and take your guitar and he'll tune it. And then he'll play a piece and hand it back to you. That's the way I learned to play anything I want." Tommy Johnson It’s said that Robert Johnson went to the crossroads at midnight, sold his soul to the Devil. At the stroke of midnight, he walked down to the crossroad at the junction of Highways 61 and 49 in Clarksdale, Mississippi. Met the Devil there. The Crossroads – a place of myth, a magical place that existed before our time. Travel was slow, didn’t have the phones or the convenience stores with bright lights to illuminate your way. Fact is, crossroads weren't safe at all... Just a meeting of roads, go this way, go that way. European countries, Greece, India, Japan, even Native Americans held the crossroads to be a mythical place, inhabited by demons, ghosts, and spirits. Suicides and murderers were buried there. It was a place ruled by the trickster deities. Legba is one such deity, part of the pantheon held sacred in Dutch Guinea, Brazil, Trinidad, Cuba and the voodoo cults of Haiti and New Orleans. Trickster gods are said to walk amongst us. And in modern milieu to be often confused with the Devil. Trickster gods open the way for mortals to follow… It has been surmised that Robert Johnson sold his soul to Legba. All I know is the man could play mean guitar. And the Devil? To know for sure…head out to the crossroads round about midnight. Devil has many meanings which are almost lost. Take the number 15 for example (no, don’t add them together – just the number 15). And never forget. By itself the card has no meaning. But where it sits in the spread, the cards that surround it... Early this mornin' When you knocked upon my door Early this mornin', ooh When you knocked upon my door And I said, "Hello Satan, I believe it's time to go." "Me And The Devil Blues" - ROBERT JOHNSON :smoker:

full deck	13 Aug 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae It’s said that Robert Johnson went to the crossroads at midnight, sold his soul to the Devil. At the stroke of midnight, he walked down to the crossroad at the junction of Highways 61 and 49 in Clarksdale, Mississippi. Met the Devil there. [/b] I've read some of the same legends about what the cross-roads symbolize in some African societies. It is more a place of opportunity from what I had read. Other than hard work and talent, Plutus has more to do with the professional musicians I work with than Satan, though some of these guys can test one's patience sometimes. A working musician is just that, rather than the devil's client.

robyn	13 Aug 2003
Greatings, i agree, surly pay attention to what you were feeling at the time you pulled the cards, and the surrounding cards. I think that the cards speak in the manor of our level of understanding at the time, I also think that they encourage us to grow and push our understanding to new heights. I am still learning what each card means specifically to me. i havent had my cards long, and i dread the day of my end of discovery for interpritation. i can certainly see how commitment is relevant to the devil card even in reference to the image on the card in the rider Waite deck (two personages are each wearing a chain that is fastened into a loose collar about the neck etc) i interpret the devil card to mean a few different things, one of which is a sign of bondage which to a deep degree can be termed as commitment. The ‘bondage’ or commitment to a thought, an emotion, a need, a relationship, a life style... In relation to the “cross roads” the musician is obviously dedicated and committed to his music, he comes to cross roads in his life where he must decide HOW committed he truly is, how imbedded into his soal is his desire. Is the commitment, pain, hard work, glory, and satisfaction worth it; is HE the musician worth it. Will he keep his commitment and stay in bondage, or give it up and let it go. Will he take control and choose for himself or let other forces decide for him. Any choice or pathway will surely be a journey that leads to other cross roads. "Fact is, crossroads weren't safe at all..."-Umbrae :) as far as safety is concerned...?that’s just a figment of the imagination. NO ONE is safe anywhere in this world :) MUHAHAHA;) Anyway, for me each card presents in itself cross roads: opposites (positive, negative etc.),and balance in the images and feeling presented by the card .Perhaps that is the way I seek to view life and what I seek to attain: balance... or at least try and be as close as I can get to it ;-P Sooo, I can surely see how a card can be viewed to be negative by one and positive by another .. you know ...one mans trash is another mans treasure etc etc etc. other interpritaions may be related to human worldy desire, perhaps physical satasfaction such as sex or drugs etc, or money and wealth,vanity,addiction, etc. or aside from the previously listed anything that would inhibit us from spriritul, emotional and physical growth and or freedom, wether it be another person, or personal thought, emotion or action. usualy i tend to see the devil card as a revilation card. he points out a desire or need, and he asks me what is my level of commitment ? how much into bondage am i or willing to go with this desire or need? can i let it go? do i want to let it go? etc. am i willing to withstand the effects of this desire or need even if it may become detrimental to my mind, body , soul? Well, That’s my take on it at this time, as useless as it may be. I wish you the best of luck humbly yours, robyn.

The Talking 'bout the Devil thread was originally posted on 21 Jun 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.