When the Hanged Man is REALLY Hanged!

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Logiatrix	12 Jun 2003
There are at least a few tarots that depict the Hanged Man as a person literally hanging by the neck from a tree; the Legend: Arthurian, the Native American, and the Cagliostro are three that I have. The Cagliostro is one deck I liked in all aspects EXCEPT for that gruesome Hanged Man...so I relegated it to the collection until recently. I really, really like this deck, so I'm trying very hard to get past my negative perspective of this depiction of the Hanged Man. My progress thus far is that now I am able to look at the image without repulsion or fear. It is starting to truly symbolize "surrender" to me--surrender of the former response I've had to this version of the Hanged Man, I suppose... :D I'd like to take this concept deeper and develop a truly symbolic understanding of the (literally HANGED) Hanged Man in these decks. Any suggestions on how to perceive this particular rendering of the Hanged Man card would be abundantly appreciated. :)

firemaiden	12 Jun 2003
Hmmm, I don't like the idea of seeing an actually hung person for this card one bit, to be honest with you. I like what you said about the hanged man symbolising "surrender". My approach would be just to read with the card as if it were the traditional card, to be amused by the artistic novelty, but not much beyond that...

HudsonGray	12 Jun 2003
The only option I would be able to come up with (I have the Arthurian too & didn't like the hanged guys) is that here's a person who's truly f***ed by the situation they're in. In a way the image is giving it a more intense personal slant than looking at it as a person who's voluntarily removed themself from the problems to give themselves a new perspective. Here they're forceably removed, you've lost part of the control as there's no willingness on your side to be in this position. The meanings still apply, just a different slant on the card.

Alex	12 Jun 2003
I guess it's all the same, the POSITION you're hanged matters little. Alex.

Alissa	12 Jun 2003
Actually, this very aspect can make or break if I want or use a deck. I adore my Legend deck, except for.... If I see a Hanged Man card that shows a dead man swinging on a rope, I'm pissed. Because it's gonna screw up any readings I do for people who don't know jack about cards, and all they're gonna see is a man swinging on the end of a rope, no matter how much I talk to them about "willful suspension from life". Willful my ass! He's at his rope's end! Literally! Yes, I totally despise decks that show a hanged Hanged Man, I couldn't agree more vehemently.

Thirteen	12 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa Willful my ass! He's at his rope's end! Literally! Yes, I totally despise decks that show a hanged Hanged Man, I couldn't agree more vehemently. I'm with you, Alissa! It rather misses the point of the Hanged man--which is that he has to survive the hanging! The Hanged Man is based on Odin, who hung upside-down from the world tree for 9 days and nights without bread or mead. CLASSIC deprevation-in-the-wilderness venture that all holy men, Shamans and magicians know is required in order to reach higher levels of insight and power. It's not a pleasant experience and the sufferer certainly risks dying, but it's not like having your neck suddenly broken. At the end of those 9 days and nights, Odin looked down and saw and understood the runes, the source of all power and magic. How can anyone have such insight if they've been "hung by their neck until dead"? Granted, there are symbolic "Hanged Men" who, instead of living through their ordeal, are "resurrected." Christ, for one. Inana, who got hung up "dead" in the underworld for another. I suspect THIS would be the only way to make a card of the literal hanged man, work. By assuming that his execution gives him a glimpse of death, and all the mysteries there on the other side--AND by assuming that he's going to rise from the dead afterwards. Nevertheless, I don't much like the fact that this image misses out on the perspective of inversion. The Hanged Man hanging from one foot sees the world from a different perspective. Also, his one crossed leg carries with it some fascinating symbolism--it is the emblem for Sulfur (transformation) and it is an echo of the same cross-leg posture sometimes seen in The World card.

Trogon	12 Jun 2003
Hmmm... I guess this rules out the Arthurian deck for me. I have to agree that I don't care much for the idea of this card picturing someone hung by the neck. As pointed out, by others, it rather removes the idea of voluntariness which I generally associate with this card. I hadn't run across any decks with this when I've been looking through decks at the new age store... but it is something I'll have to watch for when shopping. Tauni, thanks for bringing this up.

Aerin	13 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Trogon Hmmm... I guess this rules out the Arthurian deck for me. I have to agree that I don't care much for the idea of this card picturing someone hung by the neck. Just to add, this refers to the Legend Arthurian and NOT the Hallowquest Arthurian. Yet another reason why I prefer the latter over the former. The Hallowquest Arthurian uses the Wounded King as the Hanged Man card, works for me even though he isn't inverted. Here's some pics http://www.wicce.com/arthurianpix.html. I think I heard that the Fisher King and Odin have been connected - Jung reckoned they came from the same archetype. Aerin

Major Tom	13 Jun 2003
Have you ever watched when someone completely unfamilar with the tarot as they go through a deck card by card? Almost unfailingly, they always stop at the Hanged Man. Then they do something extraordinary. Ever seen it? ;)

firemaiden	13 Jun 2003
I have never seen it, Tom. Do they turn it around?

catboxer	13 Jun 2003
Yup. They turn it "right side up." I've seen it happen more than once. That's what Court de Gebelin did the first time he saw a tarot deck. Then he decided that's the way the card should actually appear. So when he produced his own deck, the Hanged Man became a figure standing on one foot with his other leg crossed behind him, and was given the name, "Prudence."

Major Tom	13 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by catboxer Yup. They turn it "right side up." I've seen it happen more than once. It's amazing really, it happens almost every time. :eek: Quote: Originally posted by catboxer "Prudence." *singing* "Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? tooooooddaaaaaayyyyyy?" You could say the hanged man is about a different perspective on an image of self-sacrifice. })

WolfSpirit	13 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by catboxer Yup. They turn it "right side up." I've seen it happen more than once. Hehe that is exactly what I did when I started, shows I am not unique. And I agree with everyone on the hanged man in the Arthurian...I posted about this in another thread Pet Peeve cards... I really can't understand why anyone wants to do the hanged man like that.

Macavity	13 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by catboxer ... a figure standing on one foot with his other leg crossed behind him, and was given the name, "Prudence." Or as someone remarked of the Marseille version - He looks a bit like Michael Flatley in "Riverdance" :D A-diddly-diddly diddly diddly... Macavity

Khatruman	13 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity Or as someone remarked of the Marseille version - He looks a bit like Michael Flatley in "Riverdance" :D A-diddly-diddly diddly diddly... ROTFL.... Now you are gonna make me chuckle everytime the Hanged Man comes up in a reverse position in a reading!!! :P Yes, when I see a hanging hanged man I get the feeling that the deck creator has an incomplete sense of the tarot, and makes me begin to suspect other imagery. I also get that "turn it right side up reaction" when a new person finds that card. Even if the guys hair is hanging down... then it looks like Michael Flatley riverdancing an interpretation of Don King!! :D I am also with you, Alissa, on that problem with people not being able to see beyond the hanging man and interpreting death. God forbid that both the Hanged Man and Death appear in the reading... throw in the Devil and the querient will run, screaming and looking like that Flatley/Don King Man Riverdancing in a rapid backwards pedalling motion. Now for me, another point of contention is the Naked Hanged Man (ala Haindl and the original Rohrig before his diapering) I have a tendency to call this one the Hung Man... :P

WolfSpirit	13 Jun 2003
The hanged man reversed (not the naked one :P) reminds me Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull...who hid his flute behind his back.

Alissa	13 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Even if the guys hair is hanging down... then it looks like Michael Flatley riverdancing an interpretation of Don King!! :D Yea it does.... :D Thanks Macavity, and Khat ... I needed that grin.

Logiatrix	13 Jun 2003
A well-hung Michael Flatley impersonating Don King. Hmmm... Well, I am officially cured of my panic over this card! Now, what do I do to keep from busting out laughing during a serious reading? "...In your near-future, the 'Well-Hung Man' comes up...yes, I know, he looks kinda like that Riverdance guy with Don King's hair--but don't be scared..." :D

Logiatrix	16 Jun 2003
...I can't do it. :eek: I guess I'm with everyone here; I can't adjust to a hanging-by-the-neck Hanged Man. So, back into the collection goes the Cagliostro. By the way, the Native American Tarot, another deck I mentioned at the start of this thread, does not depict a dead man as I had initially thought. I read the LWB and learnt more about it--whatta concept! :D Anyway, I just wanted to go on record with my progress about this topic, in case someone else comes along with the same issue and questions. :)

Cerulean	17 Jun 2003
majors, and Citta de Ferarra (the majors which can be seen in the Tarot Jigsaw by Buffalo Games puzzle) The Leonardo Tarot does actually show the hanged traiter who took part in a gruesome assasination plot against the Medici. Da Vinci chose to sketch the punishment of one of the plotters who killed the younger brother of Lorenzo the Magnificent. Citta de Ferrara majors also does depict sometimes for historical reasons, some gruesome and literal events that aren't pretty examples of Renaissance depotism...but historically they are accurate. The hanged man is not a hopeful card, but a literal interpretation of a traitor. Even though the art can be extraordinary or colorful or historical, it doesn't make for the best reading tarots, I agree. I also pause when I see the Hanged Man right side up and sometimes I wonder quite a bit...is it better for that deck to be appropriate for the historical theme...? Or could the designer have chosen something else to get a good point across? I have to admit the Leonardo is really the only one where I might agree the choice was appropriate. Best wishes, Mari H>

WolfSpirit	17 Jun 2003
I just received a deck from a trade. In the whole deck there was only one card upside down...the hanged man. And for a moment I thought huh...what card is that ? before I turned it around. We all get confused by the hanged man sometimes I guess.

Trogon	17 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Tauni By the way, the Native American Tarot, another deck I mentioned at the start of this thread, does not depict a dead man as I had initially thought. I read the LWB and learnt more about it--whatta concept! :D Tauni; So... what does said Native American Tarot's LWB have to say about this card? Hmmm??? Do tell!

CompassRose	17 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Aerin The Hallowquest Arthurian uses the Wounded King as the Hanged Man card, works for me even though he isn't inverted. Here's some pics http://www.wicce.com/arthurianpix.html . Oh, interesting... that card's really very like many Four of Swords cards, and the Four of S. usually reads to me like a minor partner to the Hanged Man. I hate me a dead Hanged Man (or Person, as the case may be). Wrong, wrong, wrong. Although, I suppose, maybe if there was some way to convey, say, Inanna, who died when she went to the Netherworld and was hung on a meathook... but revived... in the graphic area of one very small card, that could work. But the Hanged One must return, or the point's lost.

sagitarian	17 Jun 2003
In old languages, they used to associate people who were spiritually aware with people who plain and simply spoke to the dead, or had direct influences from the dead (guides, guiding angels, etc). I believe a picture of the hanged man is going back to this basic form of speaking to the dead for enlightenment. Your spiritual communications to the universe (the afterlife/afterdeath) is in effect communicating to the "dead" communicating to the "hanged" man for enlightenment. That is definitely an interesting one though!

Logiatrix	17 Jun 2003
[quote]Originally posted by Trogon "So... what does said Native American Tarot's LWB have to say about this card? Hmmm??? Do tell!" Trogon, The Hanged Man card in the Native American Tarot is called "The Sun Dance," if I am remembering correctly. The card depicts a particular ritual conducted within the larger religious ceremony of the Sun Dance (celebrated by several Native American tribes). The dancers were young male warriors who symbolically sacrificed their bodies in honor of the transformative nature of life and death. They did this by skewering the skin of their chests with pieces of bone tied to ropes, then hanging by the ropes from the sun-pole in the center of the ritual site. The warriors would hang until the skewers ripped the skin from their chests. I don't have the LWB with me (I'm at work), but I think it said that this ritual symbolized sacrifice and surrender to the tribes who practiced it, as does the Hanged Man in the tarot. :)

Trogon	18 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Tauni They did this by skewering the skin of their chests with pieces of bone tied to ropes, then hanging by the ropes from the sun-pole in the center of the ritual site. The warriors would hang until the skewers ripped the skin from their chests. Ouch!!! this definitely sounds a bit more drastic than hanging ones self upside down by the foot. Quote: Originally posted by Tauni I don't have the LWB with me (I'm at work), but I think it said that this ritual symbolized sacrifice and surrender to the tribes who practiced it, as does the Hanged Man in the tarot. :) Yes... I can definitely see this meaning in what you described. I may have to take a closer look at this deck...

WolfSpirit	18 Jun 2003
The Quester tarot has a similar card for the hanged man. I don't think it is with pieces of bone though but with some kind of hooks, and they have to lean back in order to really feel the pain and make the sacrifice bigger. I don't have the deck but I have seen the card on line *somewhere* (not a sight you easy forget)

raeanne	18 Jun 2003
Hi all, The native American ritual of the Sun Dance was indeed very much the "Hanged Man" concept. It was a physical ordeal that was supposed to bring the warrior to a higher spiritual level. There are as many different versions of this ceremony as there are tribes of native Americans. Some stuck bear claws into the chest underneath the breast muscle of the warriors and then lifted them off the ground to hang for hours in agony. Others would stick a bone through the chest muscle. Some would have the warrior attached to a post and the warrior had to pull themself free by ripping their skin. It was a bit gruesome. The physically or spiritually weak usually did not survive. As for the Handed Man actually being hanged, I think this also has to do with walking a spiritual path that not everyone can walk. It's something like crossing the River Styx. If you can walk among the dead and then return, you certainly won't be on the same spiritual plane as everyone else!

Logiatrix	18 Jun 2003
[quote]Originally posted by raeanne "As for the Handed Man actually being hanged, I think this also has to do with walking a spiritual path that not everyone can walk. It's something like crossing the River Styx. If you can walk among the dead and then return, you certainly won't be on the same spiritual plane as everyone else!" What an excellent insight, raeanne! This is a very good visual parallel by which I am able to better understand this card. Thank you! :)

galadrial	18 Jun 2003
I've been thinking about the Hanged Man in Legend the Arthurian, and I agree that I don't care for the author's own particular description of the card, but I think the accompanying story has useful interpretive elements. The Hanged Knights went up against a formidable foe for the sake of a greater cause; their chivalric code to use their power to try to eliminate evil from the land. The fact that evil prevailed, and hung their corpses up for warnings to other knights, does not detract from the personal spiritual turning point they reached when they voluntarily decided to go against Ironside. It is reflecting on their bravery that strengthens Gareth to go forward against the Red Knight, for as long as he remains unvanquished the cause of chivalry is challanged. So I see the dead Knights as possibly representing that Hanged Man point where individuals must decide whether they are willing to go forward at personal risk for the sake of a greater cause.

Thirteen	19 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by galadrial So I see the dead Knights as possibly representing that Hanged Man point where individuals must decide whether they are willing to go forward at personal risk for the sake of a greater cause. That's an excellent point--and it makes a good deal of sense. It's certainly thematically consistent with the deck. As you point out, that very much needs to be taken into consideration. It's the problem with decks that have a "theme"--the card bows to the theme, and the reader must bow to it as well. I love thematic decks, but they can be a little less flexable in interpetation than a deck that is more emblematic and less "theme park." What this means, in this case, is that in the Authurian Deck, the Hanged Man is more about insight that leads to sacrifice ("I see the Hanged Man and now know what REAL Chilvary means. I'm willing to sacrifice myself for it as well!"). As compared to sacrifice that leads to insight--as with the Native American tarot ("I want insight and so offer a sacrifice of myself. In this almost-death of mine, I gain new perspective."). Now, technically, there has been a sacrifice leading to insight in the Authurian--and certainly our Knight comes close to death in passing by that hanged man. The problem is that the traditional meaning is that the Querent sacrifices themselves--or something of theirs--and gains insight. HERE, the Querent sees ANOTHER's sacrifice and gains insight--and a willingness to sacrifice. Thus, insight to sacrifice rather than sacrifice to insight. Does that make sense? This is, by the way, a much more Christian perspective on enlightenment. Witnessing the sacrifices of others (Jesus in particular) transforms and inspires the seeker to sacrifice themselves (make sacrifices) for the good of the tribe. The Pagan perspective, like that of the Native American Tarot, is for the pilgrim to sacrifice themselves (deprive themselves) in order to transform and so be able to serve the tribe. For all that, I'm sure we're in agreement that this literal Hanged Man does not work without a full explaination of the story behind it. If this was just the image of a man executed by the neck until dead, as compared to our Hanging Knight, killed by evil in his attempt to do good--then it would fail completely.

Sobeknofret	19 Jun 2003
In Mary Greer's book on Reversals, in the section on the Hanged Man, she gives an appropriate and meaningful quotation by Mary Renault: "Sacrifice means 'to make sacred,' and as novelist Mary Renault said once 'It is not the blood letting that calls down power; it is the consenting.' It is not the redemption but the willingness to be redeemed." (p 70) So in the case of the Legend Hanged Man, it is not Gareth's death/sacrifice which leads to redemption, but the knowledge of what the sacrifice entails and the willingness to proceed regardless. I also think that the warriors involved in the Sun Dances are working under the same process; they know what's involved before they ever get to the Sun Dance pole and are still willing to make that sacrifice, so even the willingness to make it confers power on them and makes it sacred.

galadrial	19 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen For all that, I'm sure we're in agreement that this literal Hanged Man does not work without a full explaination of the story behind it. If this was just the image of a man executed by the neck until dead, as compared to our Hanging Knight, killed by evil in his attempt to do good--then it would fail completely. We're definately in agreement. The image does not intuitively lead to any such idea, and is only suggested from the deck's theme and the accompanying story. You mentioned that "insight that leads to sacrifice" seemed a more Christian perspective; I noticed (again, according to the story and not obvious from the picture) that there are 40 Hanged men in the trees. In Christianity, the number 40 is symbolic of trials, probation and testing. I don't know if there is any significance to the number 40 in Pagan symbolism.

Thirteen	20 Jun 2003
Quote: Originally posted by galadrial In Christianity, the number 40 is symbolic of trials, probation and testing. I don't know if there is any significance to the number 40 in Pagan symbolism. No, that's very much Judeo-Christian (40 years wandering in the desert, 40 days of Jesus in the desert, etc.). At least, so far as I know. Mystical testing, however, seems to be universal. It seems to go hand-in-hand with the sacrifice element. The willingness to suffer discomfort, deprevation, pain to gain insight--struggle with demons, talk to the divine, find inner power, etc.

Forum Library > Using Tarot Cards Threads By Month > When the Hanged Man is REALLY Hanged!

Originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 Jun 2003, and now part of the Forum Library. Take part in active threads about Using Tarot Cards.