On Justice...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Jul 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Umbrae	24 Jul 2003
Umbrae Draco, the Mouthpiece of Ooolatek the Seditious One speaks; tremble ye heretics… The first tenant of our path, as taught to us from the mouth of Ooolatek the Seditious One herself is that ‘She’ always lies – and never tells the truth. And we know that the statement is correct, which means… Today we were discussing Justice. Card 11 or 8. Some say it must be eleven because it is the balance point of the major Arcana. I say turn the eight on its side and it becomes the Ouroboros. Folks generally think they understand the card…it’s about justice, legal issues…it’s about the other guy. It is never about us. In the “Egyptian Book of the Dead” Ma’at, aided by Thoth, weighs the heart against an ostrich feather; so open your heart. He’s not weighing the other guys heart…he weighs yours and mine. That’s what blows about some religions…do what you want, you’re forgiven, you don’t have to change your behavior. But in the real world you do. Justice is not about legal right or wrong. It is about adjustment, and acknowledgment of responsibility. It’s about moral right and wrong. Jung once said, “Morals were not brought down from Sinai on a tablet and imposed upon people; it is a function of the human soul which is as old as mankind itself.” Justice is about certain behaviors which serve to hold humanity as a cohesive group. When we stopped wandering as tribes, created and moved to villages and towns, we found that some behaviors would no longer work. Justice is what holds chaos at bay Justice affects you and me with equal weight. I understand that I must do what is necessary, to clear my being of fear, guilt, and shame. Do whatever is necessary to free my true self. I know that I must exorcise all unrecognized denial. Justice is not about the other guy. It’s about my behavior, or lack thereof. If I choose to turn away from the spiritual path and become petty, I had better be ready for the consequences. Justice is about Cause and effect. In the desert, you carry your own water. Justice tells us that when we fight against others, those things we hide within ourselves…we are using not the sword of wisdom, or the sword of truth…but the sword of lies. One cannot unite with The Sword of Lies…and that’s the truth…so sayeth the Mouthpiece of Ooolatek the Seditious One. Tremble ye heretics…

Tallarico	24 Jul 2003
Again, I bow to you, O wise one! you blow me away every time you write!

galadrial	24 Jul 2003
Your Jung quote, oh Mouthpiece of the Seditious One, reminds me of a wise pastor I know (they do exist) who said that the Law was brought down to act as a mirror so that we could clearly see where we fell short- it was still our responsibility to correct the defects.

Rhiannon	24 Jul 2003
Did Ooolatek overthrow Baaphymotept? I'm very confused... where has the serpent of the dark gone? R :confused:

divinerguy	24 Jul 2003
Justice is embodied by the Greek Godess Themis. Typically, she has three primary attributes; scales, a blindfold and a sword. She gives relief to the aggrieved by offering a forum for the injured. A place where the wronged can tell their story, and hope to be made whole. Her scales symbolize her balancing of the equities. The equities are those things which bear upon the merits of each party's tale. But Themis only considers things which are important to the story being told. She is blind to things like wealth or social standing, because in the end, they usually have nothing to do with the equities. (Curiously, the Justice card in the Cosmic deck is not blindfolded. I speculate that her role in the Cosmic deck includes that of an inquisitor). Her sword symbolizes the enforcement of her judgment. A decision means nothing unless it can be enforced. In art, Justice is almost always portrayed with one breast covered and one breast bare. I'm not sure what that means. Nurturing doesn't have much to do with justice, so I don't think its a maternal thing. http://www.garlicnews.com/layout3.jsp?event=165 Maybe someone has an insight on this.

firemaiden	24 Jul 2003
Oh great Oootalek! I tremble!!

HudsonGray	25 Jul 2003
Why do I get this King Kong movie image of natives at night pounding on drums, torches flaring, calling Oo-la-tek! Oo-la-tek! (Umbrae crushes trees, coming out of the jungle to accept the sacrifice). Hmm.....too much sugar tonight, I can tell.

Umbrae	25 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Justice is embodied by the Greek Goddess Themis. …Or perhaps by Nemesis, the Greek goddess of equilibrium and balanced equity… Notice…she is never pictured blindfolded…that differentiates her from Themis. Baaphymotept was Ooolatek in disguise…a great lie was uncovered…which was itself a lie disguised as the truth. So, you know about the torches and the drums…hee hee hee

divinerguy	25 Jul 2003
For those who have commented, in the past, about the tipped scales of Justice in cards and paintings, I have a little to add. Is it possible that her scales have tipped because she has already measured the fault of the accused, and has rendered her decision? It seems easier to harmonize the tipped scales with this conclusion, which supports existing literature, than to create a new hypothesis that she is corrupt.

divinerguy	25 Jul 2003
However, if Tarot's Justice is actually Nemesis, it would explain the Thothian notion of adjustment, rather than balance. The translation of her name indicates that she distributes "due enactment" or "divine vengeance." (http://www.thanasis.com/modern/nemesis.htm). Under this premise, she's not so concerned about balance, but that you're undeserving of good fortune. She'll deliver adverse consequences, for the sake of maintaining equilibrium. This could also explain why we have both Justice and Judgment in the cards, and why many Tarot versions of Justice have no blindfold. If Justice refers to a Nemetic or Thothian adjustment, it would follow that Judgment would be a more traditional balancing of the equities. Major Arcana don't exist by accident, and there must be a reasonable explanation for the existence of both cards. I have heard the rationale for both cards, but nothing seems to jump out and demonstarte its validity. Yet another unresolved conundrum.

divinerguy	25 Jul 2003
The more that I think about this, the more that Nemesis gains credibility as Justice. Take a look at the Tower card. Lightning destroys the Tower because of man's vanity or hubris at thinking it could elevate itself to the level of the Gods. This lightning is not the careful balancing of Themis, its the divine retribution or adjustment of Nemesis, a very Thothian viewpoint. I know that I've been critical of Crowley in the past, but this seems to make so much sense to me.

allibee	25 Jul 2003
*allibee scratches her head and whispers ...* Actually Themis was the goddess of right order ... justice of the heavens if you like... and her daughter Dice/Dike was the goddess of human Justice. THEMIS was the TITANID-goddess of custom, assemblies and right order, and the goddess who presided over the feasts of the gods on Olympos. She was also one of Zeus' most trusted advisers, an oracular goddess, who sat by his side on Olympos whispering her words of wisdom. Of DIKE ... "Listen to right and do not foster violence; for violence is bad for a poor man. Even the prosperous cannot easily bear its burden, but is weighed down under it when he has fallen into delusion. The better path is to go by on the other side towards justice; for Dike (Justice) beats Hybris (Outrage) when she comes at length to the end of the race. But only when he has suffered does the fool learn this(interesting choice of words, LOL). For Horkos (Oath) keeps pace with wrong judgements. There is a noise when Dike (Justice) is being dragged in the way where those who devour bribes and give sentence with crooked judgements, take her. And she, wrapped in mist, follows to the city and haunts of the people, weeping, and bringing mischief to men, even to such as have driven her forth in that they did not deal straightly with her. But they who give straight judgements to strangers and to the men of the land, and go not aside from what is just, their city flourishes, and the people prosper in it: Eirene (Peace), the nurse of children, is abroad in their land, and all-seeing Zeus never decrees cruel war against them. Neither famine nor disaster ever haunt men who do true justice; but light-heartedly they tend the fields which are all their care. The earth bears them victual in plenty, and on the mountains the oak bears acorns upon the top and bees in the midst. Their woolly sheep are laden with fleeces; their women bear children like their parents. They flourish continually with good things, and do not travel on ships, for the grain-giving earth bears them fruit." -Works & Days 212 "And there is virgin Dike (Justice), the daughter of Zeus, who is honoured and reverenced among the gods who dwell on Olympos, and whenever anyone hurts her with lying slander, she sits beside her father, Zeus the son of Kronos, and tells him of men's wicked heart, until the people pay for the mad folly of their princes who, evilly minded, pervert judgement and give sentence crookedly." -Works & Days 248 "For whoever knows the right and is ready to speak it, far-seeing Zeus gives him prosperity; but whoever deliberately lies in his witness and forswears himself, and so hurts Dike (Justice) and sins beyond repair, that man's generation is left obscure thereafter. But the generation of the man who swears truly is better thenceforward." -Works & Days 274 “To Dike (Justice), Fumigation from Frankincense. The piercing eye of Dike (Justice) bright I sing, placed by the sacred throne of Zeus the king, perceiving thence, with vision unconfined, the life and conduct of the human kind. To thee revenge the punishment belong, chastising every deed unjust and wrong. Whose power alone dissimilars can join, and from the equality of truth combine: for all the ill persuasion can inspire, when urging bad designs with counsel dire, ‘tis thine alone to punish; with the race of lawless passions, and incentives base; for thou art ever to the good inclined, and hostile to the men of evil mind. Come, all-propitious, and thy suppliant hear, till fates’ predestined fatal hour draws near.” –Orphic Hymn 62 to Dike "The myriad tribes of much-enduring men dwelt in fair cities. Dike (Justice) watched o'er all." -Quintus Smyrnaeus 5.46 "Thoughts of vengeance, which were now fulfilled by the dread Goddess Dike (Justice) [when troy fell to the greeks], for that theirs was that first outrage touching Helen, theirs that profanation of the oaths, and theirs that trampling on the blood of sacrifice when their presumptuous souls forgat the Gods. Therefore the Erinnyes (Vengeance-fiends) brought woes on them thereafter, and some died in fighting field, some now in Troy by board and bridal bower." -Quintus Smyrnaeus 13.377 “Here [in this city] dwells Eunomia and that unsullied fountain Dike (Justice), her sister, sure support of cities; and Eirene (Peace) of the same kin, who are the stewards of wealth for mankind – three glorious daughters of wise-counselled Themis. Far from their path they hold proud Hybris (Insolence), fierce-hearted mother of full-fed Koros (Disdain) … But to you sons of Aletes, how often the Horai, decked in their wreaths, have given the glory of the victor’s triumph for supreme valour in the sacred games.” –Pindar Olympian 13 str1-ant1 “Hesykhia (Tranquility), goddess of friendly intent, daughter of Dike (Justice), you who make cities great, holding the supreme keys of counsel and of wars.” –Pindar Pythian 8 str1 “The clear-voiced Mousa and Dike (Justice) who walks in the wide streets, that helper in fine deeds.” -Greek Lyric II Terpander Frag 7 "And the goddesses bestowed tender beauty. But Dike (Justice) fled from the choir of goddesses, and my limbs are weighed down, and passing sleepless nights I ponder many things in my heart." -Greek Lyric III Ibycus Frag 284 "If some god had been holding level the balance of Dike (Justice)." -Greek Lyric IV Bacchylides Frag 5 "It is open to all men to reach unswerving Dike (Justice), the attendant of holy Eunomia (Good Order) and wise Themis (Right Order)." -Greek Lyric IV Bacchylides Frag 15 credit: http://www.theoi.com/Kronos/Dike.html Well, you get the gist .... But of Nemesis:- Nemesis, the messenger of Justice, is Retribution or Divine Vengeance. Therefore she is feared; but some artists, being persuaded that Nemesis manifests herself as a consequence of love, have given wings to Nemesis as they do to Love, who also appears winged. This goddess is implacable to men of violence, but she is best known for deeply disliking the absence of moderation, and for being zealous in re-establishing order and proportion through the punishment of excesses of pride and undeserved happiness. Nemesis puts to sleep presumptuous boasting and checks offensive words, exacting a heavy penalty for them. Accordingly, those who, feeling the nearness of Fortune, abuse others, are sooner or later fated to meet Nemesis, when Fortune, who ignores constancy, has departed. Not long from Marathon, where the mighty Persian army was defeated by the Athenians in historical times (490 BC), there was a sanctuary and statue of Nemesis. It is told that the Persians' pride was such that they believed that nothing stood in the way of their taking Athens. Accordingly, they brought a piece of Parian marble to make a trophy to celebrate their victory, being persuaded that their task was already accomplished. But as it happened, they met defeat, and of this same piece of marble, the Athenian sculptor Phidias made a statue of Nemesis, the goddess who punishes the proud. It is told that when Zeus attempted to consort with Nemesis, she changed into a fish and other dread creatures in order to escape him. But when she turned into a goose, the god, turning himself into a swan, consorted with her. As the fruit of their love, she laid an egg that was found by a shepherd who in turn gave it to Leda. From this egg, Helen (the curse of both Achaeans and Trojans) was hatched in due time, being brought up as Leda's daughter. credit: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Nemesis.html *allibee ducks the missiles*

Moongold	25 Jul 2003
So, Justice is about this World and Judgment is about the next? I haven't got a Justice card that shows the scales unbalanced; some of my cards don't have a scale at all. In terms of Justice maybe the card represents the ideal. In earthly justice ideals are rarely reached so maybe the others are more realistic. Everything about this card is balanced, The two pillars (what do they symbolize)?, Justice blancing a sword and the scales, the centring of Justice herself. In the RWS image, what does the square on Justice' crown mean? Is it symbolic of the Third Eye on the Devil, which sees and understands all things?

rota	25 Jul 2003
I would bet you that Justice, being so well-balanced, is probably not a goddess but an Androgyne.

Alissa	25 Jul 2003
One of my favorite Justice cards is from the Decameron deck. Her posture in the card depiction reminds us of our vulnerability when facing Justice, in it's truest sense. She is blindfolded, unlike the RWS. She faces her Justice, her karma, often without the benefit of foreknowledge. We face each moment fresh, and are judged anew in each action, each day ... without knowing exactly what the reprecussions may be later. We act in right action, right thought, to pave the way for growth. The slant that the Decameron took was different. I quote, from their LWB (which is the only LWB ever found to be worth the paper it's printed on) : "Fortune influences loving justice. Commitment and trust are the personal qualities necessary for a satisfactory solution to the problem." I just love this. Commit yourself. Trust. Act truthfully to your heart, your soul. The Universe will take care of you, if you believe it will, because it loves you that much. (runs off chanting "Ooo Laaaa TEK! Ooooo Laaaaaaa TEK!")

allibee	25 Jul 2003
Can't say I'd agree with that rota, LOL, .... surely your androgynous union would be seen best as Temperance? alli

Macavity	26 Jul 2003
An interesting theory (of Sallie Philips) I've seen, is that she isn't a goddess at all. "Fooling" aside, in dividing the major arcana into three: "The Realm of the Gods" is followed by the "Real of Equilbrium" (midway between heaven and earth?) and Justice comes first... Or at least she does in the Marseille Tarot! Now, as a (mostly) subscriber to the Strength = Eight idea, I may even have been forced to think again... Perhaps Justice might be of some special significance and should be where she WAS, after all? }) Macavity

divinerguy	26 Jul 2003
I was looking at the Decameron Justice, and she is kneeling on a pile of skulls. Does anyone have an opinion on the significance of this? Are they the skulls of those who have been found guilty of some offense?

Alissa	26 Jul 2003
In my opinion... The skulls : She rests on what has gone before her. The skulls, representing the past (what is gone, what has been, what she has already done) are the foundation from which she now finds herself, ready to face her current condition. She is also shown as "cushioned" from this awareness -- kneeling on the pillows that separate her from the skulls themselves and her own knees. In this, she may not need to directly contact this karmic past awareness (in a conscious way), but it exists beneath her anyhow. Universal Justice acts on that which has gone before, even as it unfolds in the new. Our previous actions shape our present conditions. Our present actions shape our coming future.

Umbrae	27 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa Trust. Act truthfully to your heart, your soul. The Universe will take care of you (runs off chanting "Ooo Laaaa TEK! Ooooo Laaaaaaa TEK!") See, that is the essence…truly is it relevant if justice is descended from this goddess or that goddess? Even creating revisionist history (Helen came from Nemesis [the goddess nemesis (distributor) the goddess who provided balance to her sister's many gifts as the punisher of undeserved good fortune.] and Zeus? Common now, we all know that Zeus and Leda had as their children, Helen, Castor and Pollex although there is debate and some state they had different fathers; Clytemnestra; let’s admit it…Leda had a thing for birds as I do for run on sentences). But we lost the point. Justice. Legal issues law and order? Or something far more personal. If it's related to the legal system of judicial law and order…then you have to look at it in context with all the other Major Arcana. It would no longer fit. It’d stand out like a poorly constructed simile. No no no…Justice (even correctly spelled) leads us away from legal eagle issues towards the issues of personal responsibilities. My responsibilities. It’s not about blame, or punishment. It’s not about the ‘other guy’. It’s about me…and you…and how we treat the other guy…it’s about acting truthful to our hearts, minds, and consciences.

divinerguy	27 Jul 2003
Although I feel the hoodwinked Justice is a representation of Themis, many Tarot decks feature a vigilant, open eyed Justice. Based upon this, the eye desroying the Tower, and due consideration, I'm going to consider Nemesis as Justice when I use decks with an open eyed Justice.

The On Justice... thread was originally posted on 24 Jul 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.