Question Authority

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Jul 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

divinerguy	29 Jul 2003
I see Tarot as a learning experience. As a journey to help understand one's own self and the world around us. A Fool's journey, if you wish. The Fool represents a blank slate. The embodiment of innocence and potentiality, a blank slate if infinite possibility. (A great discussion of this can be found in Arthur Rosengarten's book, Tarot and Psychology). As I learned about Tarot, I saw the great schisms among Paul Foster Case, Arthur Wate and Aleister Crowley. Each believed they were following the proper path, and rejected notions which conflicted with their sense of propriety. In my personal journey, I have elected to challenge the assumptions laid down by others. I want to take things apart and see how they work. This applies to the physical and the metaphysical. While this path has resulted in some snubbed feelings and a disassembled toaster or two, I feel the journey is important. I feel that far too many people take their journeys without ever wondering why they believe what they believe. Albert Einstein wrote, "Everything that is really great and inspiring is created by the individual who can labor in freedom." He also said, "The search for truth is more precious than its possession." The Journey, your Journey, is meaningful in its own right. Free your minds of preconceived notions about Tarot. Allow your mind to see things in the cards. Let it take you places. Above all, question those who tell you what and how to think.

wavebreaker	29 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Above all, question those who tell you what and how to think. I was going to say I completely agree, but if I agree I should be questioning what you're saying... :D I've always found that the best way to learn, whatever it is you want to learn, is to follow your own path. Listen to others, read about the subject from different sources, not to use that information to follow anything or anyone blindly, but to use it to form your own opinion and find your own way. I'd rather trip over and fall along my path, and learn from what made me fall, than to have someone lead me along the path without falling, because then I won't have learned anything and I still don't know how to follow the path by myself...

Trogon	29 Jul 2003
Hmmm.... The Fool's Journey... "Just where is the Fool journeying to," I wonder to myself. "What, or Who does he seek?" As I read DivinerGuy's thought-provoking post, I see the Fool starting on a long journey... he steps from his mountain ledge... travels long and far and ends up on another mountain. An old man greets him there, holding a lantern so the Fool can see... "What seek you here, young man?" He asks... The Fool looks around nervously... he is precariously perched on the edge of a precipice... "Begging your pardon, wise one... I have purchased maps, I have tomes attesting to your wisdom. But these books and maps only put more questions in my mind. So I have travelled across the world. I seek the path to Truth! I seek the [/i]path[/i] to enlightentment!" The old man looks at the Fool's ragged clothing... shoes falling apart... his mangy dog at his heels... "Indeed my son? It appears that you have already traveled it..." and he returns to his cave. Sorry... not much of a story...

Umbrae	29 Jul 2003
And by questioning authority, we place ourselves in a dreadful position when authority questions… Self appointed, or not.

Moongold	29 Jul 2003
It's good to learn to think creatively and to see examples of others doing this - thinking outside the square. With regard to tarot, this applies to our understanding and interpretive skills but also to ground breaking new ways of looking at tarot - different decks and so on. Thinking creatively is another way of conceptualising questioning authority. I love Rachel Pollack's Shining Tribe for this reason - it is so different. It's why exposure to a range of tarot decks is so important. Everything from the Marseilles to comtemporary decks is worth encouraging. I think it's also about welcoming diversity and listening curiously to what people who are different have to say.

Baby Owl	29 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae And by questioning authority, we place ourselves in a dreadful position when authority questions… Self appointed, or not. Umbrae, please forgive me. I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you just warning about the possible consequences of questioning authority that we must be prepared to face? Baby Owl

Major Tom	29 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by divinerguy Free your minds of preconceived notions about Tarot. Allow your mind to see things in the cards. Let it take you places. I agree so much with this I'm going to challenge an assumption made. ;) My original signature when I first came to Aeclectic read: Think for yourself. Question Authority. Especially mine. }) Having listened to my friend Diana, and discovering other sources as well, I've come to the conclusion that it is more beneficial for me personally to view the journey of life being made by the Magician. By personally identifying myself with the Magician, I recognise my responsibility for my life. I personally believe that if you examine any card closely enough you will find yourself in the card. For me, the Magician represents the agent which transforms higher energy into physical reality. My belief that God is Everything (including me) makes it necessary to also believe that I am ultimately responsible for everything that happens to me. It is no mistake that I am the Magician in Major Tom's Tarot. :laugh: I feel that by identifying with the Fool on a journey - albeit a valid belief - allows me room to abdicate some of that responsibility. It gives me the room for excuses. "Oh well, I can get it right next time". :laugh: I see the Fool more as a goal of the journey - the soul who no longer needs to incarnate or even the soul who never incarnated. Since I'm too late for the later - I would prefer to achieve the former. When speaking of the major arcana we could actually identify with any of the 22 cards making the journey. My friend Khartuman's story of the Moon's journey is a case in point. I might suggest everyone examine each option carefully and choose the one they find personally beneficial rather than blindly accept the Fool's Journey. "Look who thinks he's a Fool" from Earthquake Weather by Tim Powers. }) Quote: Originally posted by Diana Are you sure the Fool is doing the journey? I'm sure it is but perhaps that's not the best way to look at it. :laugh: It could be any of the major arcana making the journey. ;)

Astra	29 Jul 2003
First question what Authority is. It's relatively easy to get up on a soapbox and talk, and if someone does it long enough and entertainingly enough, they can build a following. Does that mean they know what they're talking about? Come on, now. For me, the Universe is the final authority. Did it work? Then it was, at least, a right answer. Was is the right answer? Probably not - most problems outside of textbooks don't have a single right answer. I do accept authority in its specific meaning - I'm willing to take an author's word for what he/she was trying to say in a book, a song, a poem. Those two really can't be questioned. The rest are fair game.

Cerulean	29 Jul 2003
I find it refreshing sometimes when I see an structure in an Italian Marseilles decks where the Fool/Madman description appears at the end --- it's Magician to the World, then 0 at the end. I think there is a misprint in foldout booklet for the Ancient Tarots of Lombardy from Lo Scarabeo -- the first description sounds like the Magician and then at the end, description for the Madman/Fool. I'll have to look at a few other Di Gumppenberg decks, but I've seen this before and like the idea. The worldly and wise Magician starts the sequence. But in the end, after Judgement and resurrection, we are clothed in a new frame and become the dancing spirit of the World for awhile. Then we return to earth, a solitary pilgrim walking at the edge of the known world or into the newness of an unknown world. With a tarot deck in our pannikin... Mari H. P.S. It's been asked before, but I like the idea of a question--what's in your Fool Bag as you begin your journey? Maybe I'll find a new or old thread with this question.

Elle	29 Jul 2003
I agree with the premise that we each take our own Fool's Journey through life and we must do it on our own. WE MUST stop and Question Authority whenever we are faced with it. Each Fool begins at the beginning, each on its own path... Elle

full deck	29 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Elle . . . Each Fool begins at the beginning, each on its own path... ". . . all is vanity and grasping at the wind . . ." Some end feeling the fool. Like the "0" that is seemingly perpetual, it almost seems an endless cycle.

firemaiden	30 Jul 2003
Question authority....? says who? Okay, I grew up in Berkeley, it is a society which teaches disobedience and questioning authority. (Remember Ubu Roi? I ORDER YOU TO DISOBEY!!!) I neither obey nor disobey authority. I choose my authority. If a self-appointed authority talks blather, I walk away. How do I know when it is blather? I dunno, some kind of magical instinct. But if I find someone whose authority is natural, based on deep knowing (how do I know when it is deep knowing and not blather? I dunno, some kind of magical instinct) I attach myself to them to learn. It is said, with studying singing, 90 percent of talent is knowing whom to trust. Here's another sort of paradox for you. How does someone acquire so much authoritiy over you that they need to be questioned? Who gives them so much authority? Why you do, of course. Why not bypass the first step, and you will have no need for the second...

Moongold	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden ..... ......I choose my own authority Here's another sort of paradox for you. How does someone acquire so much authoritiy over you that they need to be questioned? Who gives them so much authority? Why you do, of course. Why not bypass the first step, and you will have no need for the second... I agree. And I think that encouraging people to be original, to think creatively, to develop their own authority is a more positive way of seeing it.

lunalafey	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotlady I've always found that the best way to learn, whatever it is you want to learn, is to follow your own path. Listen to others, read about the subject from different sources, not to use that information to follow anything or anyone blindly, but to use it to form your own opinion and find your own way. What works for one may not work for another, so finding what others do or think adds to the options to find what works best, what makes sense. take what you can use leave the rest behind

wavebreaker	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Astra I do accept authority in its specific meaning - I'm willing to take an author's word for what he/she was trying to say in a book, a song, a poem. Those two really can't be questioned. The rest are fair game. Why can't an author be questioned, because whatever they are saying is written down? Does the fact that it's on paper mean that it's true? I don't think so. I'm willing to accept whatever is written as an opinion of that particular author. And sometimes I will agree with it (and not question it), but at other times I will disagree and I will question it.

jmd	30 Jul 2003
Many points made reflect those Divinerguy made right from the beginning of this thread, and hints, it seems, what most of us on Aeclectic (and elsewhere) want to do: deepen understanding. 'Authorities' become useful as knowledge sharers and fellow travellers - some with whom we tend to walk along paths sharing many similarities. Some steps which need to be taken to deepen our understanding may require questions, but other steps may also need to be taken on implicit trust... that other important element on the path which aims to transcend the pitfalls of mere knowledge, and reach the levels of understanding and wisdom. Sometimes, then, questioning may lead more astray than implicit trust - as at other times blind trust may lead further astray.

Baby Owl	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd 'Authorities' become useful as knowledge sharers and fellow travellers - some with whom we tend to walk along paths sharing many similarities...Sometimes, then, questioning may lead more astray than implicit trust - as at other times blind trust may lead further astray. This seems like a very balanced view, jmd. I like it. I do believe in questioning authority in the sense that I want to know WHY someone is considered an authority before I will accept him as one. I want to decide for myself whether the person's experience, background, actions, or what-have-you qualify him as an authority. For me, the type of trust you describe would come only after I examined the basis for the person's claim to authority and accepted it on my own terms. Baby Owl

Astra	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotlady Why can't an author be questioned, because whatever they are saying is written down? Does the fact that it's on paper mean that it's true? I don't think so. I'm willing to accept whatever is written as an opinion of that particular author. And sometimes I will agree with it (and not question it), but at other times I will disagree and I will question it. Whoa, tarotlady - I said an author's word for what he/she was trying to say, not for the truth of that saying. There is a great deal of difference, even if many authors would like to have an armlock on TRUTH.

Major Tom	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Baby Owl I want to know WHY someone is considered an authority before I will accept him as one. My friend Jmd brings an essential balance to the discussion. :) I would want to know how I and others will benefit by accepting an authority. If the authority increases my understanding? *shrugs* Sounds good to me. If on the other hand, the authority limits me or others in some way without reason then I would certainly rebel. }) But surely this is part of the questioning process? :confused: Isn't complete rebellion just the other side of the coin of complete acceptance?

Alissa	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I neither obey nor disobey authority. I choose my authority . (how do I know when it is deep knowing and not blather? I dunno, some kind of magical instinct) Who gives them so much authority? Why you do, of course. Why not bypass the first step, and you will have no need for the second... (Alissa runs around the room screaming for joy before coming to a stop about 6 inches from firemaiden's face) SISTER~! SING IT~! THEN Sing it AGAIN~! (She shakes fire by the shoulders gently before hugging her long and hard, then takes off running long enough to go read what everyone else said, and giving the soprano room to breathe and keep singing, keep singing)

wavebreaker	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Astra Whoa, tarotlady - I said an author's word for what he/she was trying to say , not for the truth of that saying. There is a great deal of difference, even if many authors would like to have an armlock on TRUTH. I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what you mean by "an author's word for what he/she is trying to say"...

Baby Owl	30 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Major Tom quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Baby Owl I want to know WHY someone is considered an authority before I will accept him as one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would want to know how I and others will benefit by accepting an authority. If the authority increases my understanding? *shrugs* Sounds good to me. If on the other hand, the authority limits me or others in some way without reason then I would certainly rebel. }) But surely this is part of the questioning process? :confused: Yes it is. I agree. Baby Owl

Ravenswing	30 Jul 2003
I'll accept a peson for what they are.... and ideas for what they are. But somehow I don't see that there need be a connection between the two... fly well to thine own Self..... Raven

Astra	31 Jul 2003
Quote: Originally posted by tarotlady I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what you mean by "an author's word for what he/she is trying to say"... Well, an author can say "I was trying to show how faith can make a difference in a crisis". This doesn't mean faith makes a difference in a crisis, but it is the word from the horse's mouth about what the author was trying to accomplish. There's an old story about someone who was doing a thesis project analyzing one of the works of Elizabeth Barrett Browning. Her thesis committee rejected the work, even after they had a letter from the author agreeing that, in fact, the analysis was correct Authority with a vengeance, yes? The upshot, supposedly, was that future thesis topics were limited to poets and writers who were dead and couldn't challenge the committee's authority.

quan_yin	01 Aug 2003
I am very glad this thread has come up, as it is something I've been thinking about. This isn't exactly on-topic with this thread, hope it is ok to post. I recently happened to stumble upon another site focused on spirituality. It seems to be created by people who are very angry and disillusioned with spirituality. My impression is they went through some sort of embracing of big spiritual concepts (with great enthusisam and high hopes for self understanding and great life, etc), but without any sort of questioning for themselves. Yep, I think these people were survivors of some sort of new age cult. But I noticed it wasn't the spiritual ideas that were the problem. but that they had all given their power away to the so-called "authority" on these topics . Then some things happened and they felt mistreated by this "authority." Nobody seemed to appreciate their own role in what they created for themselves. No one talked about the importance of discernment, to see if these ideas were valid for themselves. They were just disappointed when the "authority" showed human failings and let them down. No one showed much understanding of personal responsibility... This is why I like Tarot. It's up to each person to determine what something means, and it may differ from what an "authority" thinks something means. Naturally, it is always good to get ideas and suggestions of what cards and readings might be saying, but in the end, it's up to the individual. Isn't that what makes Tarot so interesting? :) Thank god Tarot does not cause cult-like results. There is no "authority" in charge except yourself.

Le_Corsair	03 Aug 2003
that some of those pontificating about the questioning of authority get so very upset when it is put into practice. There is no requirement that one must tug the forelock and do a courtesy when questioning authority; at least not in a free society. There is also a long tradition of satire being used to question authority. If authority's only recourse is to silence and rebuke, it says something about authority, does it not? AND: even if the United States has degenerated to the point that a disclaimer must be affixed to every product and service offered, and every opinion stated, does it follow that we must accept such a situation silently, and follow it in every group, organization, or situation? I devoutly hope never to live to see such times. Bob :THERM:

jmd	03 Aug 2003
I'm not sure as to what you mean by your opening comment, Le_Corsair. I presume that the questioning of authority discussed is as to whether something said reflects truth - and here, both this important combination of questioning and trust, or as wonderfully put earlier, discernment, is important. This is quite different to the adolescent sense of rebellious 'questioning' of authority (which is healthy, by the way, in an adolescent), but which seeks to undermine the supportive nature of a community. Of course, there may come a time when the supportive nature becomes itself a straightjacket, and rebelliousness is a healthy consequence. This, however, seems to me to be not questioning of authority in the sense discussed, but rather seeking to alter the being of the community. When a community already has an open and healthy questioning attitude and a quest which is encouraged by mutual support of each the other's endeavours, I'm not sure satire and the like is necessarily healthy (I guess I'm here questioning the 'authority' of the tradition of satire :)). The spiritual quest needs questions, and discernment of spirit - and the myriad individuals each having their own ways of doing and presenting things, being mindful of others. In this sense, Questioning is also of oneself - is what and how I am writing consistent with that which I wish to strive towards, to learn, to know, to encourage, to grow? If not, how may I improve it? Such are also questions of one's own authority...

Kiama	03 Aug 2003
Hi Le-Corsair, I think there is a difference in the kinds of authority you are referring to, and the kinds of authority the original post in this thread is talking about... The original post talks about questioing 'authority' that says 'This is what Tarot is' or 'This is what you should believe'. It is always healthy to question this so-called authority, since the things it seeks to be authoritative on are largely subjective in nature. The authority you are speaking of, from what I can tell from your post (So forgive me if I am wrong!) is the more 'people who make the rules' kind of authority. Now, obviously in some cases it can be good to question that authority, especially when it is blatantly obvious that the authority in question is wrong. However, often this authority is an authority of very objective subjects, such as laws and rules. Would you say that questioning the authority of a set of rules such as 'do not murder an innocent man' is good and healthy? How about 'do not steal'? Such rules I think are absolute, and to question them is not only dangerous for your own well-being but also for the consequences. Incidents in the past show that when people decide to act on such questioning, others get hurt, murdered, and their rights are totally waived by some other guy who think sthat questioning the authority of the laws of the land is a good thing. If however, you are referring to the recent thread in Talking Tarot, and to 'freedom of speech', I think it is only polite, when 'questioning authority' and not agreeing with the general consensus, to be polite about it. It is, of course, wonderful to have a diverse range of opinions, but what seems to be happening of late is that freedom of speech is being inextricably linked with saying things in such a way that they are obviously going to cause some offense to somebody somewhere. People are free, especially on this forum, to give an opposing viewpoint, as long as it is said in an inoffensive, non-inflammatory way. It has been said by others that it is the fault of the person who takes offense. However, that person would not have taken offense if what they had read was not written in a way that could cause them to take offense. I'm a writer, or at least, I'm trying to be one currently, and one thing I have been taught is to always be mindful of one's audience when writing: If I am writing for children, I will not use swear words or introduce concepts they will not fully understand. If I am writing for a teenage magazine, I would tailor the language I use to fit their social-dynamics. If I am writing on this forum, I bear in mind that my audience is wide and varied, and the sensibilities of some are different to others. Therefore, even if I am expressing and opposing opinion (Which is something I am doing now! })) I will strive to say it is a polite, reasonable manner. This is not tiptoeing around people. It is being polite and reasonable. Maybe I'm just being too English here though in my manners...? ;) So, in conclusion... Questioning subjective authority, on subjects uch as Tarot and spiritual matters, etc, is always healthy, and diversity of opinion is something I've always enjoyed, but it is the manner in which that opinion is expressed that may need looking at. Blessings, Kiama

catboxer	03 Aug 2003
Kiama, that was very well put. My take on this matter is similar. When I was a sophomore at San Francisco State in 19 mumble mumble, I took a biology class. I noticed that in every place where my textbook referred to the number of pairs of human chromosomes, the printed number 24 had been crossed out and replaced with a penciled-in 23. What had happened was that the year before, a graduate student looking through an electron microscope at chromosomes had taken the trouble to count them, and counted 23 pairs. She then looked at more samples, connfirmed her observation, and announced to the world that the authorities were wrong. This is an example of the right way to challenge authority. It contrasts sharply with the example of a person who announced (authoritatively) recently on this forum that Moses was a master tarotist. I guess that explains why the Book of Exodus has so much to say about tarot interpretation and divination. In this case, the wisdom of the standard versions of tarot history, backed by authority, were challenged in the same manner as in the case above, but unlike the biology graduate student, this challenger had nothing with which to support her challenge but hot air. She succeeded only in making herself look foolish. The principle of challenging authority is not a value in and of itself. Its validity depends on the nature of the challenge, the legitimacy of the authority, whether (as Kiama pointed out) that which is being challenged is objective or subjective in nature (factual or interpretative), and the purposes of the challenger.

The Question Authority thread was originally posted on 29 Jul 2003 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.